Cloyster

[craymond727]

Seeing Tentacruel in the Checks & Counters sounded kinda off to me, so I ran some damage calcs and came up with this.
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Tentacruel: 230-275 (63.1 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
If Cloyster already has a Shell Smash up, Tentacruel isn't really that great of a counter considering that Rock Blast chops off almost 2/3s of its health from one turn, while Tentacruel can only retaliate with this:
0 SpA Tentacruel Scald vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 100-118 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even if Cloyster gets burned, it's still going to KO Tentacruel unless it protects after the initial Rock Blast, and this is assuming that Tenta's at full health without any entry hazards.
Plus, Tentacruel couldn't switch in and then tank a hit unless Cloyster's using Hydro Pump or setting up the initial shell smash, so it requires a teammate to faint or maybe a slow -turn to get into the battle in the first place.
Also, if Cloyster's holding a Lum Berry, Tentacruel's Toxic or Scald burn won't even slow it down, and that 41% flinch chance with can be a huge liability considering Tentacruel's low physical bulk. On the off chance that Cloyster has a White Herb..
0 SpA Tentacruel Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 67-79 (27.6 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Heck, I really like Tentacruel, but it's much more of a shaky situational check than a solid counter.

Wasn't Tentacruel rejected for an analysis anyways?

 

[Magnemite]

Mentions of Tentacruel, Forretress, Jirachi, and Jellicent should be removed as they have all been rejected.

also why is keldeo not mentioned in c&c ;;;;;

edit: does it outspeed Deoxys-S, scarfchomp, or scarf terrakion at +2 with jolly? These are much more relevant than what you have listed, and if it doesn't outspeed these then I would just remove the mention of Jolly entirely. The only relevant +1 base 100 in OU is DD charizard X, which will never have a boost up against a +2 cloyster and usually runs adamant nowadays anyway.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Mentions of Tentacruel, Jirachi, and Jellicent should be removed as they have been rejected.

also why is keldeo not mentioned in c&c ;;;;;

**Bulky Water-types**: Bulky Water-types are a very effective way of dealing with Cloyster as they resist both of its STAB moves. A common one is Rotom-W, who can take a hit from Cloyster and OHKO back with Thunderbolt. Quagsire also fills this role very well as it can take Cloyster's hits easily due to its Unaware ability and cripple Cloyster with Toxic, or try to burn it with Scald. Jellicent and Tentacruel perform very similarly as both can wear Cloyster down with Scald, and Jellicent can also Will-O-Wisp Cloyster, while Tentacruel can Toxic stall it out. Slowbro can take a hit from Cloyster and heavily dent it with Psychic or Flamethrower; it can also paralyze Cloyster with Thunder Wave, preventing it from successfully sweeping. Keldeo is not incredibly bulky, but it can survive any of Cloyster's attacks at +2 and retaliate with either Hydro Pump or Secret Sword. Bear in mind that Lum Berry variants of Cloyster are immune to an initial status move, so try to determine the item Cloyster is running from the damage output.

It is mentioned, but perhaps it should be put in its own category, as it isn't particularly bulky.

 

[DiddlySquat]

Minor spelling error: "Latios is particularly good as sit counters the bothersome Keldeo". Sit should be it I reckon.

 

[CyclicCompound]

TRC, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm going to reject Cloyster.

I used to support it, but metagame shifts along with a new standard for QC rejection have changed my opinion on it. Yes, it's quite strong after a Shell Smash boost, but (a) getting the boost and (b) getting past Cloyster's many checks afterwards is simply too difficult and warrants too much support for Cloyster to truly be effective. A poor defensive typing alongside a Stealth Rock weakness PLUS the Defense- and Special Defense- lowering effect of Shell Smash makes Cloyster a risk, sometimes a liability, to bring into battle and attempt to boost with. High defense is nice but it's literally the only cushion to have to rely on, which is barely worth anything when you're so vulnerable. Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Scizor, Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, and Aegislash are simply far too common and far too hard to dispose of or even weaken, considering Cloyster needs them at rather low health before it can hope to get past them. Even if Cloyster manages to weaken one of those Pokemon before it goes down, there are far better Pokemon for this job that don't require such precarious setup (see: wallbreaker). Priority is extremely common, and while Cloyster resists Ice Shard and Aqua Jet, there are other ones like Extreme Speed, Mach Punch, Brave Bird, and Bullet Punch that make it extremely difficult to survive. And to top it all off, Deoxys-S and Thundurus are basically insta-death for Cloyster no matter what health it's sitting at. While Ice Shard lets it get past them, it completely loses the ability to hit many important Steel-types, thus becoming more useless than it was before.

I'm sorry man, but Cloyster's gotta go.

QC Rejected 1/3

 

[Swamp Link]

QC Rejected 2/3

 

[trc]

:[
wutevs

just don't use untrue claims in an argument, Cloyster OHKOes megasaur at +2, same with Ferro, rotom needs like 5% or so. it also doesn't mind priority as much as you say, as it's defense is p big.

the only points I concede to is the difficulty to setup, the annoying inability to get past Aegislash, and a shitty spdef.

reject 3/3 :[

 

[CyclicCompound]

No.

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 240-280 (65.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 215-260 (61 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 170-200 (55.9 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 211-249 (87.1 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 84-99 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 88-104 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 134-162 (55.3 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Aragorn the King]

No.

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 240-280 (65.9 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 215-260 (61 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 170-200 (55.9 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 211-249 (87.1 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 84-99 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 88-104 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 134-162 (55.3 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nevermelt Ice / Life Orb would help the first calcs out, although I'm not sure if they'd turn to OHKOs.

 

[trc]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cloyster.3495440/page-2#post-5120055

 

[trc]

also rotom is the only one you miss out if you don't use LO