Chesnaught (QC 0/3)

[Haunted Diamond]

If Landorus-T is viable then I am too >_>

Overview
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- Unique defensive typing that allows it to check/counter some important threats like Zekrom, Groudon, E-killer, Mega Kangaskhan, and Arceus Ground.
- It has access to useful support moves like Spikes and Leech Seed.
- Stab Hammer Arm lets it deal with important things like E-killer and Mega Kangaskhan.
- Shadow Tag weak (it has ways to play around some variants of Goth and Mgar though).
- Same unique typing gives it weakness to common threats.
- Can't fit all the moves it needs in 4 moveslots.

Physically Defensive
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Name: Extreme Seeder
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Spikes
move 3: Hammer Arm
move 4: Spiky Shield / Synthesis / Taunt
Ability: Buleltproof
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Impish
Evs: 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Atk

Moves
=========
- Leech seed is what makes Chesnaught not that easy to switch into. Use it a lot to recover health and to stop dangerous switch ins like Yveltal to have a lot of fun.
- Spikes is your other option to use after a free switch in. Use it when there's no big consequence to give a free switching in to a threat.
- Hammer Arm is the stab of choice and lets you deal with E-killer and Mega Kangaskhan, as well as ferrothorns that think you are complete set up bait.
- Spiky Shield in conjuction with Leech Seed might give you sufficient recovery to compensate for the lack of Synthesis. Spiky Shield if used correctly can also punish Physical attackers and scout for moves, otherwise it just gives your opponent a completely free turn. Synthesis can be used instead if you want to play it safe.

Set Details
=========
- Evs give you maximum physical bulk, while the 4 Atk Ev is there to help Hammer Arm hit harder.
- Make sure to use a 252 HP/ 252 Spe / 4 Def with a jolly nature in conjunction with Taunt if using Chesnaught on a Sticky Web team.
- Bulletproof is the preffered ability to give you immunities against moves like Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb (hello, Mega Gengar).
- Leftovers is the preferred item here to help Chesnaught avoid being easily worn down.

Usage Tips
=========
- Don't be afraid to spam leech seed, especially when you already have one layer of spikes up.
- Taunt and max speed is the way to go when using Chesnaught on a Sticky Web team. Chesnaught can use Taunt to stop Defog while laying his own hazards.
- If using Spiky Shield, don't spam it blindly as your opponent can use the free turn to switch or set up on you. You need prediction skills if you go for Spiky Shield.
- If using Synthesis, use it instead of leech seed when your health is under ~60% so that Chesnaught can stay healthy to switch in later (and not die to Zekrom's Outrage for example). Your priority must be to keep Chesnaught healthy enough all the time so it checks what it needs to.
- Chesnaught's home is on Balance/Semi Offense teams where it is used to check certain threats with the bonus of Spikes. There are many competitions for Chesnaught on a stall team and it gives switch in to many dangerous stall breakers. But it could be used over other physical walls in Stall if you are too much in need of Spikes.

Team Options
=========
- You will need a Yveltal check. Arceus Fairy, Xerneas and especially Tyranitar are good teammates.
- You will also need a Ho oh check. You either have the option of Arceus rock as a hard counter for ho oh, or just keeping rocks up + a soft check like Tyranitar (again, a great teammate for Chesnaught)
- For blaziken, a physically defensive Support arceus like Arceus-Fairy (also counters Yveltal) or Arceus-Water (also 'checking' Kyogre and Ho-oh) can usually solve your problems. One of the downsides of using chesnaught instead of Lando-t or Gliscor is that it makes you Blaziken weak. But instead it single handedly deals with E-killer and all Arceus-Ground and it has Spikes+Leech Seed.
- There's also the threat of Xerneas. If you use a rather offensive team, I strongly recommend Excadrill + Tyranitar as those two pair very well with Chesnaught.
- Heatran makes a very good partner for Chesnaught as it can check many things that threaten Chesnaught (Shaymin-S, Xerneas, Yveltal and Ho-oh to an extent) and set up Stealth Rock.
- Sweepers and wallbreakers like E-killer, Xerneas and Yveltal who appreciate a layer of Spikes in addition to Stealth Rock on the opponent's field are good teammates for Chesnaught as Chesnaught finds enough opportunities to set it up.
- A layer of Toxic Spikes on the opponent's field can turn Chesnaught into a very annoying Stalling machine in conjuction with Leech Seed and Spiky Shield.
- Try to utilize Chesnaught's unique traits in checking dangerous threats to Offensive teams like Zekrom, Kangaskhan, E-killer, and Groudon while providing spikes as much as you can. Chesnaught's ability to deal with these threats in addition to setting up Spikes for your own powerhouses is what makes him viable in Offensive oriented balance teams.

Other Options
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- Shadow Claw can be used to hit both Goth and Mega Gengar. Something to definitely consider.
- Rocky helmet can be used instead of Leftovers. But Chesnaught needs all the passive recovery it can get to stay healthy throughout the match.
- Wood Hammer punishes Groudon and gives you something to hit Mega Gengar with through Taunt, but it's more useless compared to Hammer Arm.
- Roar beats Psyshock Gothitelle and can phaze.
- Toxic is a viable option, but Leech Seed is far better.
- Stone Edge can be used to catch a Switching in Ho oh.
- Don't use bulk up please

Checks & Counters
#########
- Arceus Grass: This is your ultimate counter to Chesnaught. It's immune to Leech Seed, Defogs his hazards away, and cripples him with a burn.
- Any Pokemon with a super effective Stab: Blaziken, Yveltal, Mewtwo, Xerneas, Shaymin-S, and specially Ho oh all can come in and threaten Chesnaught with their Stab. Though Leech Seed can be annoying to all of them except Shaymin-S.
- Defog users : Giratinas and Support Arceus can defog poor Chesnaught's Spikes. But Leech Seed is just as annoying to them.

 

[Nayrz]

This thing is literally bait for so much of the tier. Mono-Fighting coverage is just bad to have in a tier filled with strong Ghost-types and the fact you have Spiky Shield as a second slash is flat out dumb when its the key to beating the threats it should be, while also scouting for Choiced mons to see what they do, and rack up leech seed recovery as well as punish physical attackers that want to break through this. It is 100% mandatory.
Things Chesnaught is bait for:

It's a ridiculously long list

Blaziken
Deoxys (all forms hazard stack on you or deo-a will just ohko)
Mewtwo
Aegislash
Giratina (-O)
Mega Gengar
Gothitelle (these are massively huge disadvantages for a mon that needs to check ekiller and kanga)
Wobbuffet
Ho-Oh
Lugia
Palkia
Rayquaza
Skymin
Xerneas
Yveltal
Any special attacking Arceus forme or any Defog Arceus (thats quite a few)

Now lets see what Chesnaught actually "beats".

Not much at all

Extremekiller - it can SD in your face. if you dont have spiky shield ekiller can beat you and if it has the standard fire coverage then you auto-lose
Dialga - fire blast rip
Darkrai - this is like one of the pros about it and yet you didnt even mention it at all
Groudon - Lava Plume will beat you
Gliscor - you either get toxic stalled or taunted, either way you lose
Hippowdon - not really hard to beat in the first place
Kanga - without spiky shield this is more annoying than it should be
Zekrom - Outrage will chunk you and Draco does a lot, either way without spiky shield you arent punishing this very well
Kyogre - a grass type that loses to kyogre is just horrible
Defensive stuff like Ferrothorn and the blobs - you will probably get toxic'd which doesnt really help it at all

So the idea here is: Chesnaught is hard pressed to beat anything in ubers and without spiky shield it beats a grand total of about.. 3 offensive mons? Why should it be used over Ferrothorn which does very similar things and actually has more advantages? Oh and synthesis is just a bad idea as it is gimped by Kyogre and Tyranitar (a partner you suggested for Chesnaught) yet you denied the idea in the discussion i had with you in the ubers chatroom:
[18:36:50] +Haunted.Shadow: chesnaught needs synthesis imo
[18:36:57] +Haunted.Shadow: spieky shield is risky

I won't even go into how much of a pain it is to build around this thing when you need secondary checks to what its supposed to be checking and you have a grass type that loses to kyogre.

tl;dr chesnaught is unviable in a shadow tag metagame and is still questionable without it. and for the love of god remove synthesis

 

[Haunted Diamond]

First of all this is my first analysis and it's in WIP, so stop being so salty. More importantly, please read my analysis before bashing it. Now about your points;

E-killer: +4 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 306-360 (80.5 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 302-356 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dialga: o__o I didn't mention dialga.
Darkrai: If you have foddered something to sleep then yeah chesnaught can wall it. I'll wait to see what others say.
Zekrom: 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 151-178 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Teravolt Zekrom Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 208-246 (54.7 - 64.7%) not a 2hko with rocks and leftovers.
Kangaskhan: 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 168-199 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ferrothorn and Blobs: Just read the analysis. Chesnaught has stab Hammer Arm...
Next time please check your facts before bashing someone.
Edit: Chesnaught needs Synthesis. But if enough people tell me I will remove the slash. Like I said, Synthesis helps it to avoid being worn down, even the 37.5% in rain and sand isn't that bad as all chesnaught needs is the recovery.

 

[Nayrz]

You didn't pay attention to my claims, nor am i being salty. I said that without Spiky Shield, Kangaskhan does a lot of damage to you, hence "more annoying than it should be". The list was going through the threats of ubers and how well Chesnaught matches up against them. You also ignored my point about Ekiller running Fire type coverage (which is not uncommon) and will easily beat you. I brought up Zekrom for the same reasons as i talked about Kangaskhan - Spiky Shield makes it take damage for its physical attacks, otherwise Zekrom just hits you twice/three times with Outrage then switches into something that will force you out, leaving you pretty weak even after the Leech Seed recovery. Sure it can take Bolt Strikes easily but you dont really punish it for doing so, something that Ferrothorn can do thanks to its ability. Also my point was about defensively played Pokemon in general : ferrothorn and blobs were an example of such. Sure you can hit them with hammer arm and they wont like it at all but it doesn't OHKO them.
Lastly: "Next time please check your facts before bashing someone" - I was not bashing you, I am going through the analysis and giving criticism to improve it while giving my opinion. If you are unwilling to listen to my points and play it off as me personally attacking you then so be it- QC can tell you.

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Read my analysis, you will get most of your answers there.
I have said in the analysis that many thing chesnaught checks can somehow find a way around it (like fire blast arceus, or maybe choice band Zekrom), but this is the case with almost every wall in Ubers.

I don't get it, zekrom hits you three times, so what? You just leech seed then synthesis once. Kangaskhan is annoying, so what? It can annoy all of its counters. Ferrothorn doesn't have instant recovery, can't wall/check e killer and khan like chesnaught, and dies to random fire punch on Groudon while Chesnaught takes ~44% in sun. Ferrothorn lacks Hammer arm and doesn't resist ground.

"Sure you can hit them with hammer arm and they wont like it at all but it doesn't OHKO them." What's your point? So you will switch your ferrothorn in chesnaught because it isn't Ohkoed?

A constructive criticism won't use words like "it is flat out dumb" or throw random calcs at me just to prove that I'm so bad for suggesting this and my sets are bad. Honestly if this is the way the QC team is gonna treat me I won't bother to write another single analysis here.
Edit: I've put effort and time to test this and write the analysis. I don't want someone to treat it like trash.

 

[Nayrz]

The QC team aren't going to be harsh at all, looking back my posts seem aggressive and I apologize. To keep the analysis being derailed i'll leave the rest of the discussion to the guys in charge, i was just offering my views. The analysis in general is structured fine and the details are good, my views are just debating against the mon's viability.

 

[Fireburn]

Convert to skeleton format please.

Also Synthesis sucks

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Converted.
Also mentioned Spiky Shield as the first option.

I'm testing Spiky Shield Chesnaught now, so far the lack of Synthesis has made it a lot easier to wear Chesnaught down. I'll wait to see what others say.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Ignore Nayrz, he likes being rude and aggressive on all analyses, just look at Arceus-Psychic for an example :)

He's also wrong about Chesnaught being "bait" for everything because remember that nothing is bait when it has Toxic/Leech Seed and can therefore spread the oh-so-important residual damage. also Ho-Oh can be seeded, scouted and locked into a move.

If we are now judging things because they are weak to Gothitelle then we need to rethink Palkia and support Arceus, clearly those are now awful. You actually completely wall all Gengar that don't run HP Fire or Sludge Wave, so that's kindof a stale matchup that goes nowhere. He is right on Synthesis being bad though, you're not gonna be getting turns to use it.

Lastly I disagree with this comment:

I won't even go into how much of a pain it is to build around this thing when you need secondary checks to what its supposed to be checking and you have a grass type that loses to kyogre.

a lot of viable mons in Ubers such as Chesnaught, Amoonguss etc aren't really things that you build around per se. It's more of a "hmmm, what can I put in slot(s) 5 and/or 6 that will help me against X, Y, Z and strengthen my defensive core? Oh look, if A or B fall against C or D, I can use Chesnaught as a backup to both, that would be a good addition". Also, Arceus-Grass can lose to Kyogre, just saying.

You didn't mention the fact that you wall Arceus-Ground fantastically, like seriously, it can't do anything at all.

Ice Beam, which isn't that common, does:

0- SpA Arceus-Ground Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 172-204 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

pathetic. and you win with Leech Seed, Spiky Shield, etc, unless it Ice Beams you on the switchin.

+2 252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 116-137 (30.5 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

this is just sad :[.

lastly

ferrothorn and blobs were an example of such. Sure you can hit them with hammer arm and they wont like it at all but it doesn't OHKO them.

and what on earth are either gonna do back? Toxic is the best move and Chesnaught will always be alongside a cleric, whilst you can chew away Blissey/Chansey's health with Leech Seed and stay fantastically healthy yourself.

P.S. Chesnaught gets Roar, which is useful vs Gothitelle (Gengar will Taunt you) and other things such as Calm Mind Arceus, etc etc that try to set up on you. It also works nicely vs Ho-Oh if you have Stealth Rock up as now it can't come into you at all.

 

[Haunted Diamond]

I added Arceus Ground. I've also mentioned Taunt in OO as an option to beat Psyshock Goth, but Roar will have its uses to phaze for hazard damage. Adding it to OO.
Edit: Chesnaught is slower than Goth. I removed Taunt, but it can still be used with a little speed investment (8).

 

[Inspirited]

Put Toxic as a moves mention since it is a move that Chesnaught wants desperately but cannot fit onto the set without hurting it in other areas. I will comment more later.
tagging Dice since he also has experience with Chesnaught.

Edit: Haunted.Shadow, I am saying move it to moves from Other Options. It is the best way for Chesnaught not to become Defog bait as it sets up Spikes and helps it punish switches in general. Like I said, it is a move it wants ALOT; not something that belongs in Other Options (this is usually where extremely niche elements are kept).

 

[Haunted Diamond]

I have toxic in OO?
Edit: Not sure if chesnaught will be effective without leech seed/hammer arm or other moves. I'll wait to see what others say.

 

[AlphaNeria]

Never seen this Pokemon but I guess it can work.

Thinking about how my teams would handle it, I think you should mention in checks and counters Pokemon that are immune to Leech Seed (aka. Grass types). There aren't that many viable Grass types in the tier and Ferrothorn's hit hard by Hammer Arm, but Skymin should be mentioned - it resists Hammer Arm, retaliates super effectively, doesn't take damage from Spikes, and is immune to Leech Seed.

EDIT: Oh and U-turning / Volt Switching Pokemon should be mentioned, since they remove Leech Seed and can bring in a faster Pokemon to get the kill.

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Added Shaymin S. U turn doesn't really count as it's just the same as switching. (since chesnaught is slower than all the relevant u turn users)

 

[SylveonIsCute]

um, first of all, in the overview, i think it's called 'four moveslot syndrome' or 4MSS.
Second of all, the set name should be the same. Instead of calling it physically defensive AND extreme seeder, just call both of them physically defensive.
And lastly, toxic deserves a slash with one of the moves, maybe spikes. In a tier full of incredibly bulky threats, leech seed and hammer arm just wont be doing enough tbh. Spikes isn't that amazing and you'll rarely be able to set up 3 layers, so i think toxic is just all around better :)

Besides if you want a spikes setter there are the Deoxys forms and Klefki to choose from who arguable do it better thanks to either better typing or better movepool or stats.

 

[Nayrz]

oh btw if you want qc opinions then you need to put the analysis into quality control stage, otherwise they dont know if its ready to be looked at

 

[Haunted Diamond]

I think this is ready for QC. I'm gonna put my team with chesnaught here + some replays. I'd really appreciate if anyone puts some time to test both synthesis and spiky shield on chesnaught and see which is better. Please don't decide which one is better unless you have tested both some matches. So far I prefer Synthesis but people seem to think it sucks so I'd really appreciate if others helped me in this.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-152578249
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-152579235
The team:

Hide

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Hammer Arm
- Synthesis
- Spikes

Tyranitar @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 24 Def / 220 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Pursuit
- Payback
- Stone Edge

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin

Arceus @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Calm Mind
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Palkia @ Assault Vest
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Thunder
- Fire Blast

Blaziken @ Blazikenite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Low Kick
- Flare Blitz
- Stone Edge

Edit: The original version of the team I have at home has AV Palkia and Rock Slide Exca which are better in this team. Use this one.

 

[shrang]

Chesnaught does get access to Shadow Claw, which you could use to hit Gengar and Goth with. Maybe worth mentioning.

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Added Shadow Claw to OO.

 

[Sweep]

Hi, I tested Synthesis and Spiky Shield and the latter is by far the superior option, especially in conjunction with Leech Seed. In a metagame where Kyogre is everywhere and Tyranitar/Hippowdon are very viable, you'll only get 25% of your health back a good portion of the time. Chesnaught and Groudon have awful synergy so you're never going to use Synthesis on a team with Sun support (unless you use it with ZardY I guess). Leech Seed is nice for both replenishing health and wearing down the opponent; it's particularly nice with Toxic Spikes, which deserve a mention somewhere in this analysis as Chesnaught can stall a little with them. Using Synthesis does open up an extra moveslot, but physically defensive Chesnaught does not really need it considering it's too slow to be an effective Taunt user and there's little reason to run an extra attack. Spiky Shield / Leech Seed / Wood Hammer / Spikes are all you need.

Mention a max speed Sticky Web spread with Taunt please, it's extremely viable on webs and can set Spikes while preventing Defog...it walls stuff like Groudon, Terrakion, and Earth Plate Lando-T even without physical defense investment.

Chesnaught is viable and I am definitely going to approve it. However, bear in mind that I view the Web spread as the "better" option than the defensive one even though they function differently, so I'd list the Web spread first unless other QC members disagree.

Chesnaught should NEVER be used on teams that are Xerneas-weak by the way. The team you posted is ridiculously weak to Xerneas, your only check takes 45% or so from Moonblast on the switch and everything else gets murdered. Life Orb sets in particular are awful to deal with.

 

[Haunted Diamond]

I'll make the web set when I get home. And will remove Synthesis though I still think it helps chesnaught more in walling zekrom, e killer and groudon.
I have to admit my team is Xern weak but it can't switch in safe and gets worn down and I can manage it with either fairyceus (lo) or exca (geomancy). I just pasted that team to show Chesnaught's usefulness in Offensive balance teams with spikes+walling dangerous threats.
Changes will be implemented. Thanks.

 

[SylveonIsCute]

I haven't tested it yet, but specially defensive Heatran seems like a phenomenal teammate for Chesnaught, as they both cover up each others weaknesses. :)

Here are the things Heatran covers for Chesnaught: Fire types (choiced ho-oh or variants that lack earthquake, reshiram) and will-o-wisp, fairy types (specifically Xerneas), ice moves, poison types and poison moves (specifically toxic), flying types (swallows up Lugia's aeroblast and yveltal's obliv wing), some psychic types (i think deoxys is walled, along with the rare arceus-psychic, but can't wall mewtwo).

And here are the things Chesnaught covers for Heatran: notorious edge-quake combo (think Groudon, Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Terrakion, MMX variants that lack zen headbutt and ice beam, and even then zen will do 57% to 68% meaning it can get up leech seed and protect stall), focus blast and aura sphere (negated by bulletproof), weak water attacks (i say weak because even scarf Kyogre can do 74% to 86% with water spout and easily OHKO's with specs, but still takes it better than Heatran does), physical attackers in general (mega khan fails to OHKO with return even at +2 most of the time (has 25% to OHKO with adamant nature) and can take on unboosted mega Lucario attacks fairly well)

Not only that, but both Heatran and Chesnaught use stealth rock and spikes respectively allowing for them to deal a lot of damage in the long run. And Heatran can aid Chesnaught's stalling capabilities with toxic, greatly decreasing the lifespans that Chesnaught happens to be stalling, and toxic is just a great move anyway. :)

Plz don't ignore my contribution, because some people do for some reason :(

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Actually heatran definitely deserves a mention as a teammate :o

Edit: Added T-spikes, Heatran, Taunt and the sticky web spread.

 

[Aidin]

Waterceus as a teammate becasue it checks blaze and ho oh?

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Added Arceus Water.