that's why you run a spinner or defog user when you use charizard y (although spinners are usually better if you're running hazards). at least zard y can do something with the sun it brings, rather than simply be switched out right after setting up sun, like ninetales has been used. with the weather debuff, you need to take advantage of EACH turn of sun you have. remember, it has 159 spa, meaning, it can actually hurt things unlike ninetales, and, since it gains drought through mega evolving, it is able to keep the sun alive on the initial ttar switch-in, or any other weather setter that happens to switch in.
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Pokémon Charizard
- Thread starter X5Dragon
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There are some problems with this.
- Dragon-type attacks are pointless unless you have STAB on them, or are running Dragon Tail.
- Air Slash and other Flying-Type attacks are horribly redundant with Fire-Type attacks for Super Effective coverage.
- You HAVE to run Focus Blast or else T-Tar and Heatran wall your ass. If T-Tar gets a free switch (like if he switches in on Solar Beam), you are completely screwed.
- Also, why the hell are you talking about stuff like Thunderbolt and Ice Beam? Charizard is NEVER getting those, and we could say "x would be great if it got y in its movepool!" all day long, but he doesn't, so talking about it is pointless.
- It's fucking Charizard. If it makes OU, it'll be because it's popular, not because it's good (see: Electrivire, Darmanitan, Scrafty).
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Then why'd you bring it up?!?!?
Dragon type attacks aren't pointless because it tremendously boosts Charizard's coverage. And if you are lacking Dragon type coverage on your team, it's a better option to run Dragon Pulse over HP Ice because of Power and because Charizard it makes Charizard completely walled by fire types.
I mentioned Thunderbolt and Ice Beam because they are common special moves. If someone says Charizard has a bad special movepool, I'd expect those two moves to be part of the discussion of what would be better than what it currently have. I've run Charizard without Focus Blast before. It's not the end of the world, especially when Solar Power isn't a ticking clock on your existence. And T-Tar is going to want to be extremely weary of switching into Charizard unless its already mega-evo'ed into Y form. Charizard gets last priority weather, so T-Tar and Politoed could get screwed,
Charizard having two fantastic megas does make it good. It won't be anywhere below BL. It would be broken anywhere lower.
Charizard Y should NEVER be your primary Drought user. If your Rapid Spin/Defog user goes down, your entire team goes down with it. However, it can play a secondary role behind Ninetales for one reason:
-Solar Power Charizard switches in, fights as normal
-Politoed comes in to set up Rain
-Charizard activates Charizardite Y
-Solar Power Charizard switches in, fights as normal
-Politoed comes in to set up Rain
-Charizard activates Charizardite Y
has anyone tried a bulky char X with belly drum yet? I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know.
78/118/85 defenses looks good enough to survive some unstabed/not effective (like 252 EV in HP) and he has Roost, maybe it could work.
Hm, maybe a set like:
Char X
Tough Claws ( I think it's a 20% increase in damage)
Jolly
6 Atk/ 252 HP / 252 Spd
Flare Blitz
Outrage
Roost
Belly Drum
If you add Stick Web it will outspeed a lot of mons.
You could also try some Batton Pass with scizor (agility/Baton Pass), or even Blaziken/Scolipede with Speed boost ability + baton pass.
I don't know if there is a poke that can survive, Fire/Dragon is a pretty good STAB combination and the only pokes that come to mind that could survive are Heatran and Azulmarill, still I don't think Heatran survives a 144 BP outrage and azulmarill a 144 BP Flare Blitz.
Anyway, it will probably die to pokemons with priority attacks/sturdy/focus sash; unless it finds some spare time to use Roost.
78/118/85 defenses looks good enough to survive some unstabed/not effective (like 252 EV in HP) and he has Roost, maybe it could work.
Hm, maybe a set like:
Char X
Tough Claws ( I think it's a 20% increase in damage)
Jolly
6 Atk/ 252 HP / 252 Spd
Flare Blitz
Outrage
Roost
Belly Drum
If you add Stick Web it will outspeed a lot of mons.
You could also try some Batton Pass with scizor (agility/Baton Pass), or even Blaziken/Scolipede with Speed boost ability + baton pass.
I don't know if there is a poke that can survive, Fire/Dragon is a pretty good STAB combination and the only pokes that come to mind that could survive are Heatran and Azulmarill, still I don't think Heatran survives a 144 BP outrage and azulmarill a 144 BP Flare Blitz.
Anyway, it will probably die to pokemons with priority attacks/sturdy/focus sash; unless it finds some spare time to use Roost.
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The problem with this is that SP Zard under the sun is only marginally more powerful than Zard Y. And Zard Y can actually take more hits than a Male Combee. SP Zard is only notable when it's wearing specs, which it can't do when it's holding Charizardite Y. In which case your opponent is pretty much screwed from a damage standpoint since you can 2HKO both Blissey and Vaporeon with a Fire Blast.
imo both are good and can't be compared, because they both play different roles and both have different counters : X acts as a magnificent finisher and Mixed attacker while Y can just spam his boosted Fire Blasts, and act as a check to wheater strategies, as he outspeeds all wheater sweepers without their respectives wheaters but Landorus, while also easily passing through many walls not named Blissey with a combinaison of Fire Blast/Solarbeam(/Air Slash).
But tbh I think X will be the most used, as he requires a lot less support than Y to be effective (He just can come as a lead, Mega Evolve and then switch away, while Y still takes 50%.)
They have completely different uses and comparing them is a bit pointless.
But tbh I think X will be the most used, as he requires a lot less support than Y to be effective (He just can come as a lead, Mega Evolve and then switch away, while Y still takes 50%.)
They have completely different uses and comparing them is a bit pointless.
Why not consider Hone Claws with Dragon Rush, Iron Tail, and Fire Blast?
So I was wondering, is Dragon Claw or Outrage better on Megazard X? Both seem like attractive options, but Outrage's locking could be problematic, naturally. What is the general consensus on this?
Mainly because it misses out on the extra speed that DD grants. Generally, every attack-boosting move outside of Sharpen is better than Hone Claws, if anything gets both. Hone Claws is really only good on things that don't have access to other boosting moves.
I had an idea for a less conventional Charizard set that might work well in the sun. I'm curious to see if anyone else thinks this set might be viable:
Charizard@CharizarditeX
Nature: Timid
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Speed/4 HP
Flamethrower/Fire Blast
Dragon Pulse
Solar Beam/Roost
Focus Blast
Now I know what you're all thinking--running a SpA set on CharX is utterly ridiculous. But if I recall correctly, his base Att and SpA are identical. Obviously, a SpA set won't benefit at all from Tough Claws, but I think I can compensate for that.
The goal is to bring Charzard in for either a safe revenge kill in the sun (admittedly unlikely), or to have a slow bulky setup pokemon clear hazards using defog or rapid spin and manually set up Sunny Day (bulky setup pokemon is yet undetermined, could definitely use some help finding something that fits the bill), then U-Turn or Volt Switch into Charzard, who should get a free SpA boost in the sun. Ideally, I'd like to buy a 2nd SpA boost, perhaps if I can force a switch. After that, MEvolve into CharX, and benefit from STAB Fire and Dragon attacks, and much better defensive typing. In regards to attacks, I'm torn between solar beam and roost, as solar beam is just about useless if I don't have sun, but it would definitely help me deal with bulky water types and ground types that CharX is more susceptible to than CharY. This is obviously an EXTREMELY situational set, and is entirely dependent on finding the right setup pokemon, but I think the element of surprise could give me a nice edge. Thoughts?
Edit: Maybe a Scizor as my support, with Defog, U-Turn, Sunny Day, and Bullet Punch? Slow enough to be outsped by most pokemon for U-Turn, get off a Bullet Punch anyway if I have to, still has respectable bulk? Seems crazy to have a Scizor set up sun, but I'm always looking for an excuse to get him in my lineup, plus the more potential megas in a lineup, the more you can play mind games with the opponent.
Charizard@CharizarditeX
Nature: Timid
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Speed/4 HP
Flamethrower/Fire Blast
Dragon Pulse
Solar Beam/Roost
Focus Blast
Now I know what you're all thinking--running a SpA set on CharX is utterly ridiculous. But if I recall correctly, his base Att and SpA are identical. Obviously, a SpA set won't benefit at all from Tough Claws, but I think I can compensate for that.
The goal is to bring Charzard in for either a safe revenge kill in the sun (admittedly unlikely), or to have a slow bulky setup pokemon clear hazards using defog or rapid spin and manually set up Sunny Day (bulky setup pokemon is yet undetermined, could definitely use some help finding something that fits the bill), then U-Turn or Volt Switch into Charzard, who should get a free SpA boost in the sun. Ideally, I'd like to buy a 2nd SpA boost, perhaps if I can force a switch. After that, MEvolve into CharX, and benefit from STAB Fire and Dragon attacks, and much better defensive typing. In regards to attacks, I'm torn between solar beam and roost, as solar beam is just about useless if I don't have sun, but it would definitely help me deal with bulky water types and ground types that CharX is more susceptible to than CharY. This is obviously an EXTREMELY situational set, and is entirely dependent on finding the right setup pokemon, but I think the element of surprise could give me a nice edge. Thoughts?
Edit: Maybe a Scizor as my support, with Defog, U-Turn, Sunny Day, and Bullet Punch? Slow enough to be outsped by most pokemon for U-Turn, get off a Bullet Punch anyway if I have to, still has respectable bulk? Seems crazy to have a Scizor set up sun, but I'm always looking for an excuse to get him in my lineup, plus the more potential megas in a lineup, the more you can play mind games with the opponent.
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I'm not seeing where any of the potential bonuses over the other Charizard sets come in; You have less damage than regular Zard thanks to losing Solar Power (The bonus isn't a +1, it's a bonus to damage while Sun is out, so you aren't retaining the effects after changing), and are switching in while still notably weaker to SR. Char Y seems a better use for the set, since it sets up it's own sun (Meaning Water-type attacks are as effective as a sun-less CharX, which you should be expecting to have happen) resulting in more reliable boosted Fire Blasts and 1-turn Solarbeams. I'd probably drop Dragon Pulse for Roost personally (You're looking to punch holes with something like this, not sweep outright, so neutral coverage isn't a huge issue, and then run either Focus Blast (Did he get Aura Sphere this gen? Thought somebody mentioned it before) or HP Ground for 4x coverage against Tyranitar/Heatran.
Edit: Really if you wanted to run a mixed set to stop certain pokes from walling you that's fine, but CharX's actual advantages over CharY (Notably good physical attack choices, Dragon Dance to become a sweeper, ability to switch into SR without being crippled) are not being played to at all in the set/playstyle you posted there.
Thanks a lot for your input, the misinterpretation of how Solar Power works was a huge oversight on my part. That definitely pokes quite a few holes in my strategy, as CharX only makes sense over CharY (with this set) if he gets SpA boosts before MEvolving. At least I feel better knowing I can still run CharY. Your comment about punching holes vs sweeping makes sense. Do you think I should use Fire Blast over Flamethrower given that? I have some hesitation about running Fire Blast and Focus Blast, just seems like I'm sacrificing lot of accuracy for raw power, and I'm not sure I need the extra power on fire if I'm getting both a STAB and a sun bonus. Also, Roost over Dragon Pulse makes a lot of sense, especially if I'm never going to see a STAB boost from it. Thanks again!
So I've been using MegaZardX and I have to say, its very impressive. Leading with a Crobat who can both Taunt SR users, U-Turn and Defog hazards away, which works very well. From their I try and Megaevolve as soon as the opportunity presents its self to avoid any further SR damage. Once he gets to plus 1 he is arguably the best DD sweeper in the tier with great Duel Stab, decent physical bulk, decent speed, access to recovery and outrages power. The only DD sweeper I would say is better at +1 with full health is Dnite because of Multiscale and once he loses that Zard is better as a straight up powerhouse, in my opinion.
As for ZardY haven't used him yet, but he seem very good on paper. I have been really caught up with school and work lately so if someone wouldn't mind posting a team that they have had success with using ZardY that I could use that would be much appreciated.
As for ZardY haven't used him yet, but he seem very good on paper. I have been really caught up with school and work lately so if someone wouldn't mind posting a team that they have had success with using ZardY that I could use that would be much appreciated.
What pokemon do you think go well with Mega Charizard Y?
I've been trying to use a Snorlax with Ice Punch, Curse, and Rock Slide, but it's a hard choice between Superpower and Fire Punch. The former gets rid of the Rock types Charizard so dearly hates, while the latter takes advantage of the sun.
I've been trying to use a Snorlax with Ice Punch, Curse, and Rock Slide, but it's a hard choice between Superpower and Fire Punch. The former gets rid of the Rock types Charizard so dearly hates, while the latter takes advantage of the sun.
Scizor's a pretty good teammate for Mega Charizard Y. It can use Defog to remove hazards, takes care of rock types with bullet punch, and Zard can switch in on fire type attacks aimed at Scizor.
Almost any steel type, Char/Char Y is imune to Ground and resists Fire/Fight while being 4x weak to Rock, in the other hand Steel resists rock and is weak to Ground/fire/fight. It can't get better than that can it?
I think Type wise, ferrothorn/charrizard is the best combo.
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The thing is that I've found Dragon Types to wall Charizard pretty hard. I could carry Dragon Pulse, but for the set I'm using I'd prefer Focus Blast.
Well, with Char Y I would run 4 attack moves or 3 attack moves + WoW, this way you can at least annoy any pokemon that switch into it.
I'm using 4 attack moves, but one is Flame Charge. And it works well. I'd say I get a boost in 90% of the time. Charizard Y has a really nice typing when Drought is out, so you opponent will generally be switching when you switch in.
The only downside is that unless I run Fire Blast, Focus Blast, mans Dragon Pulse, I have limited coverage. And SolarBeam is important because it hits both ground and Water typed.
whats the point of Focus Miss? Is it really just for Heatran? If Heatran is that much of a problem and you want Zard Y to sweep just stick a Dugtrio on your team and Something else Heatran HAS to Check, like say Talonflame (Bad Example, another 4X Rock weak Poke is a bad idea but still) Bait it out and revenge. I'd Say Fire Blast/Solarbeam/Dragon Pulse/Flame Charge is Ideal. as much as Fire Types love beating Heatran, once its dealth with Zard Y will probably sweep.
Dragons will unfortunately stop your sweep regardless. Dragon Pulse doesn't even have enough power in it to OHKO 4 HP/0 Sp Def Garchomp, nevermind stuff like Goodra, Dragonite, or even the Lati Twins, who will all punch your face in unless you switch out immediately (or Thunder Wave you into uselessness in the case of Dragonite).
At the very least you can plow through TTar and Heatran in one hit (outside Sp def variants, in which case you know they're not scarfed and can take another shot at them for the KO) rather than just adding them to your list of CharY checks/counters. Dragon Pulse doesn't really solve a lot of anything unless your opponent makes some really bad choices and predictions.
As an aside, Focus Blast does better neutral damage to incoming Politoed as well. I can understand your aversion to resting so much on such an inaccurate move though.
One thing that bothers me more is why Flame Charge is even an option over Tailwind. The damage you get from Flame Charge is negligible and it only raises your speed by one stage, leaving you open to be checked 102+ Scarfers. Tailwind not only increases your speed by 2 stages and allows you to beat 102+ base speed Scarfers, but allows your teammates to benefit from it as well. A slower but more powerful sweeper will love you forever for a +2 speed boost, even if it's only for three turns.
I suppose it's because Zard can't get Tailwind until Dec 25th though.
At the very least you can plow through TTar and Heatran in one hit (outside Sp def variants, in which case you know they're not scarfed and can take another shot at them for the KO) rather than just adding them to your list of CharY checks/counters. Dragon Pulse doesn't really solve a lot of anything unless your opponent makes some really bad choices and predictions.
As an aside, Focus Blast does better neutral damage to incoming Politoed as well. I can understand your aversion to resting so much on such an inaccurate move though.
One thing that bothers me more is why Flame Charge is even an option over Tailwind. The damage you get from Flame Charge is negligible and it only raises your speed by one stage, leaving you open to be checked 102+ Scarfers. Tailwind not only increases your speed by 2 stages and allows you to beat 102+ base speed Scarfers, but allows your teammates to benefit from it as well. A slower but more powerful sweeper will love you forever for a +2 speed boost, even if it's only for three turns.
I suppose it's because Zard can't get Tailwind until Dec 25th though.
thats the thing i guess. its only 3 turns, Which means the Last Turn of Sun could be will be used to set Tailwind up Again, when you could get one final hit off on a switch. Flame Charge also gives ZardY a Mixed option as well as a boost, Even if it sucks. still it IS Sun Boosted. its probably pitiful damage (Haven't calced) but the blobs at least would have to think twice about switching in....kinda. Not really because of that HP.Honestly i'm still on the fence on how to boost ZardY. As you said Flame Charge sucks. Tailwind has to be set up repeatedly, which also stings. however i can see its viability, mainly because things that would switch in on ZardY need to be taken care of or active when it comes in. Politoed and Friends stop its sweep by cutting its weather, with its best check, Solarbeam being Useless along with the fact he's about to be smacked with Rain Boosted Water moves, Or statused in Hippowdon's case (Hail isn't an Issue obviously) or phased or..well as we know it doesn't like these guys. I'd say Tyranitar is its worst enemy. The Worst Heatran can do is phase. Tyranitar, Running Assualt Vest in Sand could probably Tank a focus Blast (Not well, it won't do much else after killing Zard) and smack it with a Stone Edge. I don't know the calcs but That thing is so monstrous i wouldn't doubt it.
And as much as i hate Focus Miss, your right i guess. you know if Dragon Pulse hadn't been nerfed i'd say it would have had a shot at Dealing with them, (Mainly Latios and Dnite with multiscale broken. And Chomp Obviously) but hypothetical theories will get us nowhere.
I'm think as i'm typing so this probably all sounds horrible haha. but As good as ZardY looks, ZardX looks better (Although the Flame Charge Arguement stands for DD, it needs 2, but that Attk Boost helps. alot) which is a blessing in disguise for ZardY. ZardX beats TTar not Carrying Assault Vest or Scarf (Possibly with both) and Heatran Minus Balloon (Is that still a thing? i'd assume so) meaning their less likely to switch in. so ZardY will get its chance to shine. Zard is pretty much uncounterable until you know what Mega your dealing with.Or it switches in with Rocks up
And as much as i hate Focus Miss, your right i guess. you know if Dragon Pulse hadn't been nerfed i'd say it would have had a shot at Dealing with them, (Mainly Latios and Dnite with multiscale broken. And Chomp Obviously) but hypothetical theories will get us nowhere.
I'm think as i'm typing so this probably all sounds horrible haha. but As good as ZardY looks, ZardX looks better (Although the Flame Charge Arguement stands for DD, it needs 2, but that Attk Boost helps. alot) which is a blessing in disguise for ZardY. ZardX beats TTar not Carrying Assault Vest or Scarf (Possibly with both) and Heatran Minus Balloon (Is that still a thing? i'd assume so) meaning their less likely to switch in. so ZardY will get its chance to shine. Zard is pretty much uncounterable until you know what Mega your dealing with.
Is Flame Charge worth the loss of Roost? Roost provides fantastic recovery.
I've been playing:
Charizard -Y
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4Def/252SpA/252Spe
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost
So far though Dragon Pulse hasn't done much good for me, so I'm thinking of swapping back to Focus Blast which had been my original plan. All that said, Flame Charge for Roost never crossed my mind. I just don't know if its worth it.
Also, regarding Scizor as a Defog partner, I'm struggling with that. I feel like with Defog Scizor really needs 5 move slots. I guess that's a question for the Scizor thread though.
I've been playing:
Charizard -Y
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4Def/252SpA/252Spe
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost
So far though Dragon Pulse hasn't done much good for me, so I'm thinking of swapping back to Focus Blast which had been my original plan. All that said, Flame Charge for Roost never crossed my mind. I just don't know if its worth it.
Also, regarding Scizor as a Defog partner, I'm struggling with that. I feel like with Defog Scizor really needs 5 move slots. I guess that's a question for the Scizor thread though.
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