CAP 34 - Part 2 - Defining Moves 1

[ausma]

I'll back off with Heal Bell for now; like I said, I agree that it's generally something that needs more support to work and is something that isn't as intuitive as something more overtly offensive. But that's not why I'm here; I wanted to chat about two moves, Psychic Noise and Boomburst, and explain why I absolutely love one and really dislike the other.

Psychic Noise is far and away my favorite option. To me, it has an absolutely perfect blend between utility and offensive pressure that makes it a Throat Spray activator with the most unique yet still highly cohesive design space. Psychic Noise is intrinsically a stallbreaking move, putting a muzzle on the recovery options that can often help more defensive Pokemon outlast the attacker and win the 1v1. However, even more interestingly is the fact that it outright disables draining moves, which actually means that it not only is a move that is an excellent stallbreaking option, but something that we can use to pave setup opportunities into Pokemon like Hatterene or Ogerpon that otherwise would not be possible. Throat Spray's Special Attack boost is extremely intuitive with Psychic Noise's effect from an offensive POV as well; being able to attack and potentially bar the use of a recovery move, but then getting a boost that puts them in range of a followup attack, is both elegant and a very natural extension of what Throat Spray could accomplish for CAP 34 as an offensive setup sweeper. This, in my opinion, would make navigating future stages an absolute treat. There's a lot to unpack with the way that Psychic Noise mechanically works in tandem with Throat Spray, between the fact that it can disable moves that can potentially threaten CAP 34 and more aptly win 1v1s against annoying defensive Pokemon, while also exerting pressure all at the same time.

Boomburst on the contrary is something I really would implore we stay away from. It's not that I doubt it would be good- it would be a very, very good option. However to me it is an option with design space that has already been both explored and well optimized to a point where it would create a very... frankly, dull and unfulfilling process. Toxtricity is the poster child of the Boomburst + Throat Spray combo, with access to Shift Gear and Punk Rock to make the combination potent as a means to sweep in middle-to-lower tiers. The combination was highly popular in Gen 8 and took advantage of just about everything it had at its disposal to optimize the combo, between Shift Gear's Attack boost with Drain Punch, its great SpAtk, and the doubling of Speed. The set has arguably made even more optimized with the advent of Tera to give Boomburst STAB. The other Pokemon that comes to mind for me is Chromera. While Chromera isn't as optimized to use the Boomburst + Throat Spray combo, I would argue it still does make solid use of it thanks to its asinine bulk and the fact it appreciates Throat Spray offsetting Color Change as a drawback when setting up for a potential sweep. While Specs is definitely the best set, it still can make use of the Throat Spray set it used to use prior to its buff and I'd even argue that because of the pre-nerf set that there wouldn't be too much ground to explore in terms of a bulkier setup route with Boomburst since Boomburst's chemistry with items and setup was fairly considered by its process regardless. As a parting shot, both Chromera and Toxtricity's concurrent existence mitigate the dialogue regarding the design space of STAB and non-STAB Boomburst, which makes the situation even worse.

Overall, while it's true that we could still make a unique and even more effective Boomburst + Throat Spray sweeper, I struggle to see how exactly we wouldn't just end up with a product that resembles a more power crept Toxtricity or a handicap-free Chromera in practice. Even if we could make something distinct from them, the fact these options exist as such a standout framework no matter what route we take with it just rubs me the wrong way when the whole idea of this concept is to explore and optimize angles to take advantage of our chosen item's design space in order to make it not only the most appealing option, but the best.

 

[Amamama]

• Alluring Voice (move)
• ~~Boomburst (move)~~
• ~~Bug Buzz (move)~~
• Clanging Scales (move)
• Clangorous Soul (move)
• ~~Eerie Spell (move)~~
• Hyper Voice (move)
• Overdrive (move)
• Psychic Noise (move)
• Edit: ~~Relic Song (move)
• Sparkling Aria (move)
• ~~Torch Song (move)~~

This is the list of attacking sound moves, that seem strong enough to me to be considered a main move on the moveset.
Not all of them are the material we want to work with though.
Bug Buzz imo should be excluded here, as Bug is an awful offensive typing for a STAB move and even worse as coverage, which would overly limit our options going forward.
Boomburst on the other hand is too powerful for this stage of the process. With its high powerceiling as STAB we risk CAP 34 dropping throat spray in favor of a choice item in most cases. I can see this move being added in later stages as powerful coverage depending on where typing goes, but I’d caution against trying to building around it.
Eerie Spell is a bit intriguing, but I think it has been mentioned, that pp draining likely doesn’t mesh with the play pattern of a one time sweep, at least not if you want it to be effective. That said Psychic might be a great offensive typing rn though I’ll leave that analysis for typing discussion.
What breaks the deal for me is Psychic Noise being another much more compelling option of the same typing. I’m not against including this but considering we have a second more interesting option I don’t think it’s necessary.
Torch Song is in a similar boat as Boomburst, where I believe, that it’s boosting effect is likely to overshadow Throat Spray and lead to CAP 34 being used with another much more reliable item, especially since a STAB fire implies a high chance of being fairly weak to hazards.

All other options are fine inclusions to me, that offer the desired power or an interesting effect to use along the boost of the item.

I want to highlight Psychic Noise and Relic Song here as both have effects, which are conducive to our expected role.
Psychic Noises ability to cancel a defensive answers Recovery for a turn exerts additional pressure on the opponent and likely assists in making a small boost more impactful even if the sweep is not successful. Moreover its Psychic typing is pretty useful into common defensive answers, which offsets its lackluster power quite a bit.
Relic Song might be a bit gimmicky but potentially putting a defensive answer to sleep, while boosting at the same time and possibly adding some chip damage on top is a pretty powerful turn. Given sleeps ban this move might be viewed as uncompetitive and it being a legendary signature might make it an illegal option but for the purpose of the concept it’s still intriguing to me.

Edit: Relic Songs meager 10% sleep chance make it too gimmicky even with smth like Serene Grace. Functionally it’s a worse Hyper Voice 90% of the time in addition to it being a legend sig.
This is the reason I kicked it off my initial list.

 

[AzothBend]

Hello! Been stalking the CAP forum for years, but always seem to come in late to any one project. Seeing as a caught this one early, and recently met one of the TLs through another server, I thought I'd hop in with my first contribution. I wrote much of this up last night as I caught myself up, so apologies if it covers familiar territory.

1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?

The benchmark for this step should be establishing what move(s) this Pokemon will use to activate Throat Spray. Anything further will limit the typing and ability stages too much. Ideally it should have at least two viable options for activating Throat Spray, preferably with one being STAB, if not multiple. The goal of this project is to make a Pokemon that wants to run Throat Spray, so we're already limiting its item. Restricting that further to only one viable activation method could either make the Pokemon too predictable, or, again, limit us in future steps to build around one move. Additionally, having one activation method, then relying on other moves to actually deal most of its damage begs the question why we don't just cut out the middle-man and go for Choice Specs or Life Orb to get the boost immediately?

2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?

Obviously, damaging sound-based moves benefit us more. Most sound-based status moves just do not offer enough utility when paired with Throat Spray outside of Clangoruous Soul. For me, Clangorous Soul should be off the table, as it risks encroaching too much on Kommo-o. Other options mentioned, like Metal Sound or Noble Roar, are possible, but we risk the project becoming more "make a Pokemon for whom Metal Sound or Noble Roar is viable" rather than the actual objective. The one exception to this is Heal Bell, as a support Pokemon that heals its teammates to boost itself seems unique and ripe for exploration.

3- Part of Concept Assessment had a discussion on what sort of roles a mon that revolved around Throat Spray would fill. How much does the type of move we select impact and/or define our role, and what we're looking for in the process going forward?

Throat Spray as a one-time boosting item lends itself to either sweeper or wallbreaker roles. Despite the convergence around a sweeper role near the end of the assessment step, allow me to make a plea to focus on more of a wallbreaker role. This would not preclude the Pokemon from fulfilling a sweeper role under the right circumstances.
There are two existing Throat Spray sweepers in Kommo-o and Toxtricity. We know why both utilize Throat Spray. For Kommo-o, it's primary boosting move happens to be sound-based, so why not double-dip with an item that makes that move more potent? For Toxtricity, it's ability incentivizes sound-based moves, so, again, why not play into that? For both, there's also the consideration that their main STAB moves are unable to hit certain targets (Fairy, Ghost, Ground, and Steel-types, respectively) making Choice sets riskier. This is especially true for Choice Scarf sets when they both have some means of speed-boosting. There isn't much new space to explore a Throat Spray sweeper beyond its only good attacking moves are sound-based and/or it has no means of boosting otherwise. Both are perfectly viable paths to take, but not that intriguing personally.
Instead, allow me to posit two additional benchmarks: Sylveon and Primarina. Both are specially-bulky wallbreakers with access to powerful STAB sound-based moves and abilities that incentivize these moves, but generally prefer other items over Throat Spray. Exploring why that is the case, and how this Pokemon can be differentiated to push it towards Throat Spray is a much more inticing path for the project.

 

[snake]

Of the damaging sound-based moves, the good choices are Alluring Voice, Clanging Scales, Overdrive, Psychic Noise, and Sparkling Aria. Alluring Voice, Overdrive, and Sparkling Aria have good base power and are of generally good offensive types. Clanging Scales is notable for having a high 110 Base Power and a drawback that functions much better on a sweeper rather than Draco Meteor. Psychic Noise, while having lower base power, has an excellent secondary effect, making defensive Pokemon unable to circumvent any weaknesses by using their Tera and heal safely.

Hyper Voice and Bug Buzz are decent options, but they're not exactly strong offensive types for a sweeper. Bug Buzz in particular is a tough sell with all of the good defensive pieces in the metagame that resist Bug.

Boomburst, particularly with STAB, and Torch Song should be avoided. While Boomburst has high base power, 140 BP is way higher than the other sound-based moves we could give CAP34. The issue is that if we give CAP34 access to Boomburst, we have to balance its special attack around the power ceiling that Boomburst asserts, meaning that its other moves will be much weaker in comparison and CAP34 will be reliant on a Normal-type move while trying to sweep. Of course, non-STAB Boomburst is around the same base power as STAB Sparkling Aria, but introducing Tera Normal into the mix muddies things a lot, potentially controlling the power ceiling once again. I think avoiding Boomburst is overall best for defining moves and stat spreads, and if we see that it could be added during movesets, that's a different story. No matter how funny getting an instant +2 is with Torch Song + Throat Spray, it doesn't change the fact that Torch Song is a powerful and reliable way for CAP34 to boost itself independent of Throat Spray, making it likely for CAP34 to drop Throat Spray in favor of a more reliable item.

The sound-based moves that should be considered for defining moves are Alluring Voice, Clanging Scales, Overdrive, Psychic Noise, and Sparkling Aria, as well as Clangerous Soul. Any of these will get CAP34 started in the right direction.

 

[Sawyer.]

In my view, trying to "keep our options open" at this stage by selecting a palette of different sound-based moves would be a mistake. Psychic Noise is pretty clearly our best choice, offering acceptable damage output, a way for our sweeper to invalidate Unaware and other passive defensive answers, and additional utility. We should commit to Psychic Noise being the defining move of CAP34 now in order to ensure maximum synergy at future stages.

With that said, it is important that CAP34 has a secondary sound-based attacking option so that it can get the most out of Throat Spray's ability to simultaneously boost and threaten damage. We don't want to be in a position where CAP34 has to use Psychic Noise against a target that resists it in order to activate the Throat Spray boost. Our most viable secondary attacking options are as follows:

• Sparkling Aria
• Alluring Voice
• Bug Buzz
• Clanging Scales
• Overdrive
• Hyper Voice (if paired with an -ate ability)
• Boomburst (if non-STAB)

 

[Agile Turtle]

the boon of +1 Defense

for the record, taking 67% of the damage you normally would when you're sitting at 67% of the health you normally would have effectively makes the bulk boost not a bulk boost. Yes, clangourous soul raises def/spdef 1 stage, but it also takes a third of your health, and it shouldn't be considered to boost bulk when it in effect does not do that.

This goes even if we're choosing activation moves that don't have an immunity that can block them, like for example, I think on most builds Sparkling Aria and Alluring Voice would be better than Surf and Alluring Voice. Having option(s) to click if we don't want to boost yet definitely matters too, but since the Throat Spray's +1 doesn't apply until the turn after we boost, we may be lacking in immediate power and the flexibility that having 2 moves to set up off of instead of just 1 can help compensate for that (unless we go all in on Boomburst, then I guess we probably won't be lacking in immediate power).

In the specific case of Water/Fairy, you'd pick Sparkling Aria because there's no power drop compared to Surf, and you'd pick Moonblast for the power. But if you had an Electric/Fairy and your options were (80 BP) Overdrive and (80 BP) Alluring Voice, vs (90 BP) Thunderbolt and (95 BP) Moonblast, you'd probably see a little more set variation. Moonblast is great for the power, but if the power is more valuable with thunderbolt or you just don't want to be denied setup against grounds, you might just see Alluring Voice more.

If the move is Snarl, I don't think the mon is ever going to look for a secondary sound move to setup with, it's just going to also carry dark pulse for actual power. If the mon has STAB on another sound move, it'll use whatever that move is and dark pulse.

The sound-based moves that should be considered for defining moves are Alluring Voice, Clanging Scales, Overdrive, Psychic Noise, and Sparkling Aria, as well as Clangerous Soul. Any of these will get CAP34 started in the right direction.

I think it would be a good idea to move into typing with this list and the understanding that the typing decides the move. I'm intrigued by Psychic Noise the most, but I don't think I'm ready to say this mon should be a psychic type before we've had a typing stage.

 

[Ehmcee]

I think the list of Alluring Voice, Clanging Scales, Overdrive, Psychic Noise and Sparkling Aria (+ maybe ClangSoul) is a very good list to go off of here, and offers us a good list of moves that we can build around as we head into the Typing stage, which would effectively lock in which move or moves we want to build around.

There's a few options I'm not entirely a fan of, even if they could potentially make their way onto a set:

- Bug Buzz

Bug is just not a great offensive typing, especially in this meta, between the sleue of fire, fairy, steel, poison and flying types in the meta, I just don't think we can realistically build around wanting to use it as one of our primary offensive options. We'd also face stiff competition from the only other Bug Buzz user in the tier, Volcarona, which would have a leg up over us due to having Quiver Dance as well as actually being able to run boots, something which we're trying to steer clear from. Locking in Bug Buzz also makes it heavily implied we want to run a bug typing, which either makes us weak to rocks, or constrains us into bug/fighting, bug/steel or bug/ground, all of which don't have additional STAB sound move options.

- Hyper Voice (+ate Ability)

Hyper Voice on is own is entirely overshadowed by non-stab Boomburst, even when boosted by stab. I just don't think it's a good option at all unless we design around an -ate ability, as in Aerilate, Galvanize, Pixilate or Refrigerate. Now I personally don't really like the idea of Hyper Voice simply because it effectively locks in our ability right away, and locks many more potential synergies our Pokemon could have with stab options or with Throat Spray itself during the ability stage. I also think Pixilate in general is just a poor option considering we could just run Alluring Voice anyway and have that ability synergy, while Galvanize also encroaches into Overdrive's territory. Aerilate and Refrigerate cooouuuuld work, but they're both rock weak if we decide to go for stab, which again I feel limits us later on.

I'd like to +1 the list of moves slated above and support moving into the Type Stage before the Abililty Stage

 

[mark6870]

I like Psychic Noise and Clanging Scales and I am against Clanguorous Soul and Boomburst.
Psychic Noise is an underutilized move already which is cute given the current concept, but the abilities are for our sweeper to shut down healing while also doing super effective damage to high value threats such as Venomicon and Great Tusk is incredibly valuable. I know we're talking about sound moves right now, but I want to point out that the ability to shut down healing also has good synergy with Taunt in that unaware walls cannot heal nor use any utility to get rid of CAP34, making their life a lot harder.

I like Clanging Scales for all the reasons I dislike Boomburst. It's been said before that Boomburst with it's inane base power and lack of a drawback just makes it too powerful for this concept and I agree. Boomburst would also pretty solidly just lock our tera type into normal so we could click the button better.

I don't like Clangorous Soul because it seems one-dimensional. Items such as Assault Vest and Air Balloon didn't make it past the polls because their niches were already fairly explored, and i share the sentiment about Clangorous Soul. I understand that picking clangorous soul doesn't automatically mean we've turned into Kommo'o, but I find it rather boring. I believe there are more interesting ways to go about being a sweeper than omniboost. It could just be my personal fatigue of how many stat boosting sweepers there seems to be this gen but I just really am not a fan of soul on this mon.

 

[Perturbo]

I like Alluring Voice, Psychic Noise, Clanging Scales, and Overdrive.
These feel like moves that are usually underrepresented in the current metagame, and while that isn't the explicit goal of the current concept, I feel that it fits well with the underutilized item concept.
For the same reason, I dislike Clanguorous Soul and Boomburst/Hypervoice+ate ability. These concepts feel already explored by pokemon that already exist, and its use cases were already explored in a way that we couldn't improve on without just making a sweeper better than these pre-existing pokemon.
To make a pokemon fully utilize Throat Spray over Choice Specs, I think that it should have multiple coverage moves that it would switch between freely. And while not fully relevant to this discussion, I think the best way to explore this would be to not give it a spammable STAB move like the above mentioned Boomburst/Hypervoice+ate ability.

 

[LouisCyphre]

I'd like to throw my hat in the Psychic Noise ring as well. I think it has another angle that pushes away from Choice Specs: an immunity. The necessity of switching moves after a Dark-type switches in will position Throat Spray better than Specs, solidifying our concept.

I'd also like to join the consensus that Boomburst and Clangorous Soul feel too familiar. In Clangorous Soul's case, I especially don't look forward to needing to carefully calibrate Special Attack to hit necessary KOs at +2 (double damage), but not at +1 with a Life Orb (which is x1.95 damage), in order to necessitate Throat Spray. The difference between these options is about half a layer of Spikes.

 

[AzothBend]

I concur with the potential list being Alluring Voice, Clanging Scales, Overdrive, Psychic Noise and Sparkling Aria. I'm partial to one over the others (seems most of us are) but the final decision cannot be untangled from the typing discussion, so I'll save specifics for that. It definitely should be our next destination though, as typing will be much more impactful than ability at this point.

One aside I'd like to bring up is pivoting moves. This is probably better suited for a later moves discussion, but it may be worth having at the back of our minds. Given how Throat Spray is a one-time use item, this Pokemon will need to consider how to best position itself to activate it unless it exists solely as a late game sweeper/cleaner. Parting Shot is a sound-based option for this, but is counter-intuitive to Throat Spray. Thankfully, we have many other options. Most share a common type with the more viable damaging sound-based moves listed above (Volt Switch, Teleport, or Flip Turn). There's even U-turn and Bug Buzz if we want to give that a second look (we shouldn't).

 

[quziel]

I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning that Boomburst it too strong. I think its strong enough that it would almost definitely be the only sound move we run if we make it STAB (barring Scales ig), but I don't think that's necessarily a disqualifying factor. Familiarity imo argues for Boomburst at least for me. If we have multiple (Toxt and Kom) of mons running Boomburst and Throat Spray, and neither sees OU usage, to me that argues the move is strong enough that it could be a successful realization of the concept with more optimized Ability and Typing.

calibrate Special Attack to hit necessary KOs at +2 (double damage), but not at +1 with a Life Orb (which is x1.95 damage)

Throat Spray has a huge advantage over Life Orb in that context. It doesn't have recoil. There's a reason you basically never see LO Kommo-o running it when also running a move that costs 33% of your HP to use. The math works out that Life Orb essentially costs 15% of your HP per attack.

 

[Panic Station]

I like Psychic Noise, Clanging Scales, and Sparkling Aria. These three each have a secondary effect that seems to synergize well with a sweeper role.

(Edit: crossposting something I said in the Discord)

I'm ~fine with Overdrive and Hyper Voice, but their subs-related secondary makes them seem less synergistic and more "ok, so we have coverage".

 

[skippergamez]

I support Alluring Voice, Overdrive, Sparkling Aria, and Clanging Scales (and Bug Buzz too but Bug is awful and this is bugmaniacbob’s process). These are good STAB options with decent base power (great for Clanging Scales tho).

Psychic Noise is where things get too weak, ESPECIALLY as the primary sound move, and we lean towards utility, where we have generally agreed sweeper is the better role.

Boomburst is just way too strong imo. This is probably where things get personal but I feel like Boomburst spammer is just very one-dimensional and doesn’t really seem pro-concept.

Unfortunately, while I agree Clangorous Soul is way too strong, I kinda think it’s the only way we can feasibly get Throat Spray on that main set? The other way imo is Torch Song while this is insanely strong with the +2 and adding up, it feels like a much more reliable way for Throat Spray to end up on the set.

I support Alluring Voice, Overdrive, Sparkling Aria, Clanging Scales, and Torch Song, and I’m not really a fan of Psychic Noise.

 

[boo836]

I'm going to push for Eerie Spell as one of the options. I think punishing answers with recovery depletion is actually very much conducive to a one-time sweep, it's one of the most punishing moves to use against walls with non-Wish recovery. Strikes me as strange in a metagame where PP is so important for defensive sets that a lot of people don't see the appeal. I get though that compared to Psychic Noise it isn't as attractive, but there are use cases for Eerie Spell that go beyond recovery and punish 8 PP moves in general. All it takes is 2 hits to deplete a Fire Blast, Close Combat, Headlong Rush, or Recover.

 

[SHSP]

Very glad to see a lot of great discussion in this stage of things so far, wanted to pop in with some thoughts from myself and the rest of the TLT.

Torch Song is getting taken off the table here. Its already proving to be pretty unpopular here for reasons Amamama and Snake mentioned in their posts, and I'm 100% in agreement that giving such a strong move that enables other options way more than Throat Spray is a bad plan moving forward.

Sparkling Aria, Overdrive, and Alluring Voice are pretty universally liked, and I'm lumping them together here because they're all generally very similar moves. Not overly strong, secondary effects that are generally rather minor, and can fit as STAB or coverage depending on typing and other stages down the line. I don't think anyone's really had issues with these, so I would be surprised to see them not make a Defining Move list at the stage's end, but it's worth giving some time before closing to see if anyone has concerns. Clanging Scales is in a very similar boat, but its strength and drawback differentiate it a bit from the prior three. Again, I would be surprised if this wasn't an option moving forward.

Psychic Noise will almost surely be one of our defining moves. This is probably the single most popular and well-liked option discussed thus far and definitely seems to fit well. In a similar vein to the last block of moves, I'm giving some time to hear from anyone who disagrees, but expect to see this going forward.

The two most divisive of the suite so far have been Boomburst and Clangorous Soul. Boomburst is significantly stronger than most anything else we're considering and is raising questions about how it fits with later stages (typing and future moves, notably), as well as familiarity with existing examples of Throat Spray users. Clangorous Soul has been a debate since this stage opened, surrounding how it guides (or doesn't guide) the rest of the process, the existing user of Kommo-o and how different we could be from it, its power level and tradeoff, and its difference from the rest of the attacking moves we're considering. Of the two, I view Clangorous as much more of a priority to figure out here, as it would have a much larger impact on future stages than pretty much any of the rest of the moves we're looking at.

Gonna put a rough 24 Hour Warning on this last bit of discussion. If you've got points for or against anything so far, make sure to get them posted, especially about the last two moves I mentioned!

 

[AzothBend]

I'm going to push for Eerie Spell as one of the options. I think punishing answers with recovery depletion is actually very much conducive to a one-time sweep, it's one of the most punishing moves to use against walls with non-Wish recovery. Strikes me as strange in a metagame where PP is so important for defensive sets that a lot of people don't see the appeal. I get though that compared to Psychic Noise it isn't as attractive, but there are use cases for Eerie Spell that go beyond recovery and punish 8 PP moves in general. All it takes is 2 hits to deplete a Fire Blast, Close Combat, Headlong Rush, or Recover.

I like the utility of PP-reduction on paper, and it could be fun to explore in the meta. Unfortunately, in most cases, Psychic Noise does the job better by blocking healing outright for two turns. You get double PP as well for only a 5 BP decrease. But, depending on how the typing discussion goes, I don't see why it couldn't have both.

Gonna put a rough 24 Hour Warning on this last bit of discussion. If you've got points for or against anything so far, make sure to get them posted, especially about the last two moves I mentioned!

I like how the list is shaping up. However, it seems most agree this Pokemon is going to be a dedicated sweeper. In that case, Clanging Scales and Boomburst are the all-too obvious choices -- even if I don't want to admit it. Alluring Voice, Overdrive, Psychic Noise and Sparkling Aria all have alternative moves of their respective types that offer the same or better sweeping potential. Absent severely restricting its movepool or giving it a specific ability -- like Punk Rock -- I don't see why Throat Spray would be generally preferred to Choice Specs or Life Orb sets.
I echo ausma's warning that we not inadvertently stumble into a power-crept Toxtricity, or even Noivern.

Otherwise, this has been a great discussion. Happy to have participated.

 

[Darek]

I just wanted to advocate for Boomburst real quick.

In order to effectively use Throat Spray, I find it critical that CAP34 gains immediate value or pressure from the move it clicks the turn Throat Spray procs. If not, then CAP34 effectively does nothing for the turn besides get +1 SpA and use its item slot, which is exceptionally underwhelming and hardly justifies running the item. This is where slower options like Heal Bell and Psychic Noise become a little more awkward to use, as they extract greater value from slower play, incentivizing items like Leftovers that can generate more long-term value. This can be seen in how bulkier wincons like Primarina distinctly do not run Throat Spray despite running sound moves.

Consequently, should CAP34 want to run other offensive sound moves like Sparking Aria, Overdrive, or Alluring Voice as its primary means of activating Throat Spray, STAB on that move becomes basically mandatory, as 80-90 BP on a neutral, non-STAB hit is extremely weak. The only exception to this is Psychic Noise, which has a powerful enough secondary effect to maybe get enough immediate value even without STAB. Ultimately the power of such a scenario is uncertain, but because of that uncertainty, I would be hesitant to have Psychic Noise be the primary form of Throat Spray activation if it's not STAB. What this means is that if we pick one of these moves to be the main means of Throat Spray activation, we somewhat railroad the typing stage to get STAB on said move. The best we could do is group these moves together and then pick one accordingly after Typing Stage, but that still ultimately pigeonholes us to a few types. This is where Boomburst comes in- by being strong enough even without STAB, Boomburst offers immediate damage value without forcing us into a specific typing. This gives us much more freedom in CAP34's typing stage, which critically enables us to tailor how CAP34 finds setup opportunities and leverages potent STAB combinations to make progress as a sweeper. While not impossible to achieve with the typings the other sound moves pigeonhole us to, this flexibility is nonetheless important to consider.

 

[boo836]

I really am against Overdrive, Sparkling Aria, and Alluring Voice. The first two don't actually do anything beyond activating Throat Spray. These are 80-90 bp moves that don't do much outside of bypassing Substitute or situationally inflicting Confusion. At best, they offer coverage that is outshone by other common moves of the same typing.

I'm also going to push SHSP to reconsider Torch Song, as there is no real reason to believe there would be any more incentive to run other items than there would be for other moves with secondary effects, such as Psychic Noise or Eerie Spell. Why wouldn't we necessarily run Leftovers or Heavy Duty Boots to outlast certain matchups? I think Aumamama makes this point really well when they talk about Boomburst incentivising Choice Specs, because their logic can really be extended to the much weaker hits like Sparkling Aria. Why only do 1.5* damage on the second attack when you can consistently make each attack hit 1.5* harder? Getting a +2 off of an attacking move in a single turn is significantly more meaningful than a +1 in that same turn when it comes to establishing a win condition. The only real contenders are lasting even less with Life Orb (lol) and locking yourself into Torch Song with Choice Specs. I don't think that being able to boost yourself beyond Throat Spray is a bad thing either, I'd argue it's the most pro-concept option for boosting in a situation where the best non-Normal options have 90 bp at most and the concept restricts us from considering other boosting moves (why have Throat Spray when we can run Calm Mind with a Life Orb?). It just means CAP 34 would be less effective as a win condition if it switches out after the Spray boost.

I like the utility of PP-reduction on paper, and it could be fun to explore in the meta. Unfortunately, in most cases, Psychic Noise does the job better by blocking healing outright for two turns. You get double PP as well for only a 5 BP decrease. But, depending on how the typing discussion goes, I don't see why it couldn't have both.

While I agree that Psychic Noise (so long as you're faster) is better for blocking recovery, PP draining is a more devastating form of progress over longer games and lends more flexibility and room for compression to CAP 34's roles. Ripping away 4 PP from a resisted hit is a bad situation for the opponent no matter what move it is. If I had it my way, CAP 34 would have Torch Song, Psychic Noise, AND Eerie Spell to become a (mostly) one-time sound-based sweeper/wallbreaker lol

 

[mark6870]

Torch Song, as there is no real reason to believe there would be any more incentive to run other items than there would be for other moves with secondary effects, such as Psychic Noise or Eerie Spell.

Torch Song's secondary effect does the exact same thing Throat Spray does (+1 Special Attack), except Torch Song can be repeated over and over. Torch Song makes Throat Spray useless on CAP34 when the whole point is to have CAP34 revolve around Throat Spray. Psychic Noise and Eerie Spell do not have the same implications because their secondary effects do not boost.
speaking a fan of eerie spell. removing pp is cool but it's not worth 80 base power and 8 pp. Psychic Noise at least has 16 pp for the same base power.


I am turning around on Boomburst as a move. Boomburst's incredible base power was what turned me off at first, and I still prefer STAB Clanging Scales, but Boomburst is a solid neutral move that also solidifies what our Tera-type will be. It's reliable and, to echo Darek, keeps our typing open in the future stages. I still believe it would take up a large amount of our power budget and measures would have to be taken for us to want Throat Spray over Specs though.

Sparkling Aria, Overdrive, and Alluring Voice do not have interesting secondary effects, and consequently I don't have much of an opinion of them. they sure can proc throat spray.

my personal list is
-clanging scales, strong STAB
-boomburst, spammable and reliable
-psychic noise, interesting implications and good typing vs. key targets

 

[LouisCyphre]

To harp on Boomburst even more, it "keeps our typing open in later stages" only in the sense that we'll be throwing that typing away the moment it's time to sweep.

I'm also not seeing the world where we're not just using Choice Specs as our boosting item of choice with Boomburst, to maximize our wallbreaking power. Either our CAP has specifically low SpA for the purpose of reining in our +1 Tera Normal damage (making them a poor all-in Throat Spray sweeper), or our SpA is more reasonable and Boomburst puts the opponent in a resist-or-die situation every time the CAP comes in (making them better at hit-and-run than at sweeping).

We'll be facing pressure all process to incentivize CAP34 to get in and stay in as an all-in item-consuming sweeper. I don't see how Boomburst could fit in with other moves to help with that, any better than our other sound move options.

 

[boo836]

Torch Song's secondary effect does the exact same thing Throat Spray does (+1 Special Attack), except Torch Song can be repeated over and over. Torch Song makes Throat Spray useless on CAP34 when the whole point is to have CAP34 revolve around Throat Spray.

This is just wrong and ignores my point that Torch Song stacks with Throat Spray. Saying it makes Throat Spray useless makes no sense when it's literally the exact same difference between a boost from Work Up and one from Nasty Plot. These are entirely different calcs that can amount to a full 10-20% extra damage depending on the bulk of what's being hit. Factor hazards and we're talking about safe checks becoming insufficient answers altogether.

To harp on Boomburst even more, it "keeps our typing open in later stages" only in the sense that we'll be throwing that typing away the moment it's time to sweep.

I'm also not seeing the world where we're not just using Choice Specs as our boosting item of choice with Boomburst, to maximize our wallbreaking power. Either our CAP has specifically low SpA for the purpose of reining in our +1 Tera Normal damage (making them a poor all-in Throat Spray sweeper), or our SpA is more reasonable and Boomburst puts the opponent in a resist-or-die situation every time the CAP comes in (making them better at hit-and-run than at sweeping).

We'll be facing pressure all process to incentivize CAP34 to get in and stay in as an all-in item-consuming sweeper. I don't see how Boomburst could fit in with other moves to help with that, any better than our other sound move options.

I'll reiterate my point about items: what stops us from using Choice Specs with any other move? This doesn't really work as a criticism of Boomburst and feels like it's as much a criticism of Throat Spray itself. That said, i don't think CAP 34 should have Boomburst because there's nothing to explore, at that point we're just making a buffed version of something that already exists.

 

[LouisCyphre]

You're right about Specs, and it being an indictment of Throat Spray as an item. I think sound attacks that have utility effects that we might, if we squint, want to cycle between is our best shot at taking advantage of Throat Spray.

So, now that you mention it, my Boomburst criticism applies to Sparkling Aria, Overdrive, Hyper Voice, and all of the rest of the non-effect sound attacks. We might end up packing them as coverage, though. And as weird as it sounds to say—the stinkier each individual move's coverage is, the more we'll need to switch moves, and the less we'll want to run Specs. So maybe we do want to lean on Bug Buzz.

 

[mark6870]

I believe there are ways to reign in Boomburst while still making CAP34 a viable Throat Spray user, dissuading the use of Specs, such as setting a limit on Speed and then making use of Agility + 3 Attacks or an ability such as Unburden. Still, as I said before, it would take up a substantial amount of our power budget, so I understand why it is so divisive.

To harp on Boomburst even more, it "keeps our typing open in later stages" only in the sense that we'll be throwing that typing away the moment it's time to sweep.

Firstly, while Boomburst does guarantee our Tera type will be Normal, it doesn't mean that our original typing is meaningless. Our original typing matters in how we find opportunities to get in and sweep, and just because we tera normal does not mean our original STABs become moot. We see with Kommo-o that its original typing gives it pains due to it being 4x Fairy weak in a tier with Hemo extreme-speeding around and having to go mixed because being a special fighting type is terrible so it shows that typing still matters even though it will be 'thrown away' once it's time to sweep.
Additionally, Tera is a large commitment, and you might not even want to tera to preserve your own typing for whatever defensive reasons or to save it for another mon.
That being said, I think CAP34 can be successful with or without Boomburst, and I understand the distaste for the move, but my opinion is that Boomburst can be successfully balanced on CAP34 while still fulfilling its concept.

 

[AzothBend]

You're right about Specs, and it being an indictment of Throat Spray as an item. I think sound attacks that have utility effects that we might, if we squint, want to cycle between is our best shot at taking advantage of Throat Spray.

This seems to be the biggest hurdle in CAP 34: actually incentivizing Throat Spray. There are three main ways of doing accomplishing that goal.
The first is movepool, as has been preliminarily discussed here. The unfortunate reality is that we likely will have to limit its boosting potential from other moves to give Throat Spray more relative value. That's the chief concern with Torch Song.

The other two means will inform where to go next: typing and ability. I'll save specifics for those respective discussions. However, I want to retract a point I made earlier; ability should be the next destination because there's much more potential for item synergy there (and, yes, not just for Unburden).