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Sucker Punch: I am against Sucker Punch, as it is a strong priority move that would make faster checks/counters to CAP28 be wary about it. I think this will make CAP28 too strong to handle, especially since Dark is also a decent coverage to Bug/Dragon, and no thanks to it's 135 Attack stat and its access to Swords Dance. On the contrary, it doesn't really help against pivots, since they're most likely slower than CAP28 in the first place, and I don't think they would click an attack against CAP28, instead healing or statusing it. And we lose a turn if they click teleport or just switch out. Hazards: Definitely against Sticky Webs since that could allow CAP28 to sweep. I guess the other ones are relatively anti-pivot since switching means that the opposing pokemon takes damage. My issue with them is that are these worth a moveslot on CAP28? I think if you're going to have a hazard move, you might as well use a disruption move like Taunt or maybe Encore, or a coverage move, but that's just my opinion. Encore: I'm not sure if this will have any difference to Taunt, other than punishing an attempted set-up move (it's probably going to be slower than the set-up attacker so it would have to be a prediction). I feel like this is going to force out more attackers than Taunt, but force out bulky pivots less effectively than Taunt (although by only by a little). Dragon Tail: I don't really have an opinion on this, it is pro-concept of randomizing the opponents (possibly after Teleport?), but I also don't see a place on movesets where this could go. Either way is fine. Dragon Hammer: I mean I don't really like it, I would say (that we chose dragon typing and its STAB moves, I don't think we should just get a stronger STAB move), but that's just optics related so nevermind.
I am not really for Sucker Punch; it seems like its an extra tool that isn't needed. Seeing that SD is approved, I don't think that set needs something else to bolster it.
As for Hazards, Sticky Web is a BIG no go for me. I've seen Quziel hype up SR, but I haven't seen it in practice at all, and I have seen Zephyr use Toxic Spikes, but I am not sure with the addition of strong things like First Impression, Taunt, Hypnosis and dual boosting, I do not think Hazards is ANOTHER layer of complexity that CAP needs right now. If push comes to shove, I'd be against Hazard setting.
Encore, uh, its ok ig. I do not think its problematic at all, and therefore shouldn't be blacklisted, but I don't think its good enough to be mandated. If sufficient replays can prove me otherwise, fine by me, but as it stands, I'd rather have the ability to pick if I want Encore in a movepool sub or not.
DTail: Basically the same argument as Encore, pro concept as hell but not that good in practice.
DollSteak broke down why I love DHammer, so not much sense in writing another epistle; TL;DR I support DHammer.
I really want dragon tail just cause of the art we chose, but since we aren't talking flavor, I have to agree: neither blacklisted nor mandated is the best place for it. It's pro-concept but not really what this mon does best.
Was going to edit my last post but I think this is something worth it's own post. It's been approved and shown to not be 'broken', but I think we should have one last discussion on whether or not we actually want Hypnosis on CAP 28. There's been a fair amount of concern on the discord but discussion here has been lacking. I wanted to get this ball rolling because I strongly feel this is the most important thing we need to sort out before release.
First and most importantly, yes, I do understand that Hypnosis is (likely) not a broken tool and forces 28 to use CEyes to be viable, and super doesn't work well on something like sleep+set up due to our poor 2 attack coverage, but I think there is still legitimate concern to counterplay to 28 if it's capable of running set-up or choice or sleep disruption etc. I'm of the opinion that having so many different roles that require very different methods of counterplay is only going to lead to 28 being a unhealthy hassle in the meta. Again, I don't think sleep is broken, but I can't deny I have some serious hang-ups on allowing 28 to have so many options. We've been doing good so far (imo) of not allowing this cap to spiral out of control into a meta warping beast like Libra and Astro turned out and I'd really hate to see us slip up over a contentious choice like this.
Lastly I want to say that I think the greater crux of my issue with Hypnosis has been how eager many of us have been with just throwing every option that's pro-concept under the sun at 28 to give it as many viable roles as possible and personally I think it's been a bit too much. To briefly digress I've been thinking about the slated discussion points after my last post and I've come to the opinion that none of them should be required options (Aside from Dragon Hammer, my opinion remain the same on that). We've carved out a viable niche and good variety of different sets already, we shouldn't be tacking on hazards, or more gimmicky disruption options, or alternative priority or whatever have you. The more we overload 28 with options the more problems can slip through the cracks, Hypnosis being the largest and most obvious one imho.
With that said, I'd like to advocate for Hypnosis to be removed from the required moves listat the very least, and possibly even blacklisted alongside Sleep Power. It has the most potential to warp CAP 28 into something undesirable and create an unhealthy presence in the meta. I don't believe it's worth it to preserve a niche (for our secondary ability no less) when it's capable of causing as many issues as it can, regardless of how pro-concept it is.
To close I'd like to say that I'm well aware this is a controversial take, and that some people are already moving on and looking to finish 28 ASAP as the first release is coming up on us swiftly, but I strongly feel that allowing Hypnosis on 28 will only lead to future problems. And also yes I'm aware we're doing a multi-part release now (At least I think we are? Been a bit unclear on that) that allows us to edit the mon some time after it's initial release, but given how DLC2 is going to be power dunking the meta through a table very soon it'll be some time before we get around to seeing and fixing any potential issues. I'd rather nip the problem in the bud than wait for the DLC2 avalanche to finally clear.
While this isn't something that has specifically been suggested as a topic of discussion by the TL, I do want to echo Zeta's concern about Hypnosis. Although there have been arguments that it won't be broken, particularly because it would have to be run on Compoundeyes sets exclusively, Sleep can be a reasonably uncompetitive and frustrating mechanic. In addition, because we have been granted strong boosting options in Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, I think that we are closely approaching a very high power level. As we have seen with Astrolotl, even when a set isn't the most dominant on the ladder, certain moves can lead to effective lure sets that incapacitate its usual checks because they are so difficult to scout around (see Trick, Fire Spin and Explosion) and can completely swing matches.
While it will be easier to scout Compound Eyes (as Neutralizing Gas announces itself) the choice between swapping in a resist to CAP 28's powerful coverage or STAB moves or something to sponge Hypnosis will be difficult to make, and be incredibly punishing to the player if it is incorrect. I don't believe this punishes pivoting strategies anymore than other strategies, and if anything may encourage the key pivots we're targetting such as Slowking and Blissey to use their pivoting moves, particularly if we're running Compound Eyes and not Neutralizing Gas, as they will be less pressured by our offensive attacks, or able to hard switch out to remove the Sleep. All of that is without even considering that Hypnosis could very well see play on Neutralizing Gas sets anyway, in the same vein as Gengar did earlier on in the generation with items such as Blunder Policy, or just because there are less sources of counterplay should it hit, with abilities like Natural Cure being shut down.
With this in mind, I personally would recommend that at the very least, before Hypnosis is locked in as a final required move, that some replays of the move in action be provided. While replays won't always be able to guarantee that a move is safe, in the case of Astrolotl, it's pretty clear that the majority of Astrolotl's most problematic moves, namely Toxic, Trick, Fire Spin and Explosion weren't shown in any replays, and as such it's possible that had they been required, it would be a slightly different story about whether or not they would be approved.
The fact that you can completely deny stuff like Jumbao from switching in on you until you burn Hypnosis, that you can shut Corv out of the game, that you can just threaten sleep without having to ever use it is very silly. I don't have any perfect replays, cause like, its hard to get them outside of a proper tour setting, especially when 28 is still so up in the air, but in practice it feels quite silly. If we didn't have the threat of so many other strong options (NGas, SD, NP, FI) I'd be more comfortable, but given that you sorta have to expect them, its very silly. Remember, there's nothing stopping Ceyes from just bluffing sleep and running NP or SD or something. The mere threat that you have Hypnosis forces your opponent to predict around it, to assume that they cannot brave bird your CAP28 because they're getting slept, giving you free space to click basically anything you want.
I will work on getting replays for this, but I am of the opinion that we should include Steel coverage (moderate power) or Poison coverage (moderate power) on this mon. Given that we already have guaranteed Electric coverage (SE on Prima, Togekiss), I think either works, but Steel doesn't hit Jumbao 4x, so its safer. Will edit in replays once gathered.
Used Dragon Hammer/EQ/Iron Head/Taunt, Iron Head got a KO vs his Kerf on a read, overall felt just sorta workably strong, and thanks to the 4MSS this mon has I don't think it breaks it at all. This means 28 has a average power option vs Fairies. I think its balanced.
Rematch of same teams; here the noted lack of electric coverage due to 4MSS means that MDS can set up cawm for free, and directly leads to me losing the game.
Steel coverage is fine due to moveslot limitations, and gives us space vs Fairy types.
After the discussion given so far, I think I feel comfortable addressing a few moves:
Focus Blast: This one I was unsure of but the cost-benefit of OHKO Equilibra versus the generally better uses of Close Combat I think is a very solid cost-benefit that slipped through the cracks. Approving Focus Blast and adding it as a slash to the Nasty Plot set.
Sucker Punch: Most people seem solidly against its inclusion, or they don't think its problematic but also not at all needing to be approved. I don't know if I want to blacklist it particularly at the moment, but I am slowly leaning in that direction.
Encore / Dragon Tail: Fit together because for the most part they have the same reaction: perfectly fine but not worth the approval. Will happily sit together in moveset limbo.
Entry Hazards: People are very much against Sticky Web. I mostly expected this reaction and I was just waiting for enough discussion on it, so blacklisting Sticky Web. What is far more interesting is the other two, and the general response to hazards. Entry hazards in general seem to have a fairly mixed reception in terms of them possibly being another layer of complexity that we may or may not want on 28. I think to make sure we aren't creating too many options just one form of hazards is appropriate for 28 and since Stealth Rock seems to be the most well-liked among hazards, I will be giving Toxic Spikes the shaft and want us to focus on just Stealth Rock for the time being. Is this an option we would like to give CAP28?
Hypnosis: It was originally approved but it seems some people have become very cautious of the move itself, and upon reflection I have begun to feel the exact same way for few reasons. Looking at the replays provided by quizel a very large problem emerges for Hypnosis: how people play around it. While it is obvious when someone is using Compound Eyes and therefore a Hypnosis set, the problem isn't exactly "does this set have this tool that otherwise blocks my mons" like Bulletproof Equilibra did, but instead its "when will this mon use the tool that will shut down one of my mons." Sleep is a powerful tool due to its ability to completely shutdown one opposing Pokemon temporarily, likely meaning that one or more of your own can function uninhibited for that number of turns that it's asleep. Considering how much slack our coverage makes up in terms of our threats list and how many offensive option cap does have at its disposal for Compound Eyes (Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, First Impression) I am worried to some extent how healthy of an option Hypnosis is. I am not convinced it is broken, we do still have a lower speed than a lot of our checks and are very frail, but I am also question the necessity of this move due to our current options and how large of an advantage it can possibly give CAP28. I would like to unapprove Hypnosis for the time being. It is clear this move is very much conflicting and I would like more discussion on it before locking it in.
Dragon Hammer: I'm...not totally sure. There have been more people speaking for its case lately but my gut is saying that it isn't quite consensus yet. This is the move that is taking the most time to make a decision on. I think at this point its probably safe to say that Dragon Hammer should go to a concurrent poll. Moderators, if you could set that up that would be fantastic.
Competitive additions are I think reaching its peak, so I would like to ask what moves / types of moves should be blacklisted from CAP28. I think specifically coverage needs to be trimmed down, and we can investigate some of the weirder moves that may still be worth adding to CAP 28 as well. Also please discuss Hypnosis and Stealth Rock and whether it should be included at this point.
> what moves / types of moves should be blacklisted from CAP28
I'm glad I haven't seen it here yet, but I've seen it pop up on Discord a couple times. U-Turnshould be blacklisted. At the heart of it, our concept is to be a roadblock against pivots, and trying to accomplish that by being a pivot ourselves feels extremely anti-concept (even if we can Roadblock our own pivot sets with SE Dragon STAB)
As far as coverage goes, I think the biggest dangers we want to avoid are Poison and Steel. Specifically, we have a weakness in Fairy typing. While Flying, Ice, Rock, and other Dragon types can all threaten us, approved moves such as Thunder, Close Combat/Focus Blast, and of course Dragon STAB all contribute to helping deal with some of these threats. When it comes to Fairies, we can hit pretty much all of them neutrally through either Electric coverage or Bug STAB, with the exception of Kerfluffle. There is no reason for us to consider adding strong Poison or Steel type moves to our moveset.
I wrote it earlier, but now that we have the better Thunder and Focus Blast approved, we should consider blacklisting Blizzard and Fire Blast, or perhaps extend that to high Ice and Fire coverage overall. Both typings have very little to add. Moves like Blizzard and Freeze Dry threaten to replace both Dragon STAB and Electric coverage of Thunder/Thunderbolt. Fire is less dangerous, and doesn't exactly replace the need for Fighting or Bug coverage, but it is also incredibly unnecessary. If we want the possibility of adding a burn, I think Will-O-Wisp or the newly available Scorching Sands are much more applicable to our needs and safer choices for either approval or moveset limbo.
I'm gonna say that my opinion on Hypnosis has also switched to being against it. It just puts lot of pressure against the opposing team, and due to our good coverage we have nothing that can resist all the moves we can potentially run with Hypnosis. There’s a replay I have with G-Luke that demonstrates that Hypnosis can easily let a Pokémon get in easier than expected.
I am exhausted so I don’t fully remember the details about the replay besides me putting something to sleep, and then using Naviathan to set up and sweep the team. While not sure if he said it there, he had said in multiple previous games that my set of NP/Hypnosis/Draco/Thunder was annoying to play around. Blacklist Hypnosis.
Stealth Rock is a move that while it sounds good on paper, just sounds to me like a shoehorned move that is added to make us better overall. I haven’t really seen any arguments that it absolutely is something to require, especially when a lot of pivots run Heavy-Duty Boots anyway and the fact that the main ones that don’t are tackled by Thunder anyway. I am someone who generally doesn’t like big competitive moves just being in limbo, so I think we should blacklist Stealth Rock.
Poison and Steel coverage seems fine to leave in limbo, because while they do technically hit Fairy-type Pokémon, our STABs are so poor that running either type that your type coverage plummets when running one of these moves. Leave Poison and Steel coverage in limbo.
Ice coverage over 60 power should be blacklisted because BoltBeam is stupid, While we are at it, blacklist Sucker Punch, Stone Edge, and Psychic Fangs as those are moves we have discussed here that are just not good ideas and generally have consensus against them. I’m tired goodnight
edit: More awake (ish, it’s a couple of days later lol) and just wanna say that we do not need the ability to inflict Burn or Paralysis consistently. They just feel tacked onto the kit and have no real reason for being good against our targets besides the fact some are physical. It just feels like a way to boost viability with no real reason as to why. Blacklist Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Scald, Scorching Sands, Glare, and Nuzzle.
I believe that Poison and Steel coverage should NOT be blacklisted. With CAP 28 wanting to run Boots, most neutral super effective hits from fairy coverage will not OHKO without setup. And most Fairy Types outspeed and OHKO anyways. Without coverage for Fairy, pure physical variants of CAP 28 would be outclassed by Haxorus, which has a similar ability in Mold Breaker, better Attack and Speed, coverage for Fairy, Dragon Dance, and Close Combat for Blissey.
The only Poison move I'm hesitant about giving out is Gunk Shot, because of its superior power and accuracy to Iron Tail, and would be very usable even on non-Compound Eye sets. Blacklist Gunk Shot. Besides that, Poison and Steel Coverage is fine. Leave Iron Head, Iron Tail, and Poison Jab alone.
I'm glad we've started to narrow down our toolkit, so I'll weigh in now.
First, I wholeheartedly agree that we should blacklist U-turn. CAP28 is to be the anti-pivot inasmuch as it cuts down on the use of pivoting strategies. If it adds to the net number of ways to pivot in this meta, then we have failed.
Secondly, I am tentatively in favor of allowing Poison-type coverage. Tommaniacal makes a good case above, comparing CAP28 to Haxorus and its diverse coverage options. As a slower Dragon, CAP28 should have a means of threatening Fairy-types at least on the switch if it is to compete. I realize we build for the meta of today and not the meta of tomorrow, but today's meta will be gone in no longer than two weeks. I do not think we can rely on Bug STAB hitting the most prominent fairies' secondary types unless we're okay with CAP28 being dead on arrival—rather, it should have some means of hitting the vanilla Fairy type, which shrugs off both STABs plus Close Combat.
I prefer Poison over Steel because it runs the risk of hitting an immunity. Moreover, it does comparatively little against the Ice- and Rock-types that also threaten CAP28. That means there is a significantly greater opportunity cost in running Poison coverage over other options, such as dual STAB or Thunder, and hence I believe it should be safe. The only check or counter that cares about this addition is Kerfluffle, who is faster than CAP28—all the other fairies on the list, including Togekiss and Primarina, are already threatened by Bug and Electric.
Supporting the exploration of Poison-type coverage, but I'm also going to advocate against Steel-type coverage. Poison as a coverage move is very targeted and extremely redundant with our STAB combo in a lot of ways. We only hit Grass and Fairy SE, and we already had the former in the bag with our Bug typing. Running Poison coverage is essentially dedicating an entire moveslot to hitting one type and not much else. Steel, meanwhile, has much more offensive power than Poison does. It adds to the targets we can hit SE much more than Poison does, faces less resistances, and lacks a full immunity.
Fairy-types are the designated common check to 28, and making it so our coverage type against them is exploitable means we lack a truly solid option against them. If you want to ruin the day of Fairies, you definitely can, but be prepared to have an otherwise useless move which does nothing to solve your issues with Steel-types. I think our BP limit for Poison Coverage should be Sludge Wave and Poison Jab. Anything more is really going above our boundaries. If we wish to preserve Jumbao as a good answer to 28, than we shouldn't go much higher than Poison Fang/Clear Smog, but both of those moves are pretty weak otherwise and probably not even worth running.
If we do go with Steel coverage, I'd be most comfortable with Smart Strike. Iron head is quite powerful and comes packed with an annoying 30% flinch chance, while Smart Strike is nothing but damage and no accuracy concern (like that's a big deal for us).
I think the definitive argument against hazards is that they are incredibly passive, and have little relevance to the Pokemon we are targeting. One of the reasons we even have this concept is the complete proliferation of Heavy-Duty Boots on Pokemon that used to run Leftovers almost exclusively. HDB even features on sweepers/cleaners like Zeraora who would otherwise use a Choice item or Life Orb. Why is this? Because the metagame is already saturated with hazards. The CAP metagame notably is also a metagame filled to the brim with a whole slew of viable Pokemon that have removal as well, so it's not a lack of good hazard removal.
Why then would we use a slot to contribute further to the oversaturation of hazards and the resulting reliance on Heavy-Duty Boots? Against Slowtwins, Blissey, and several offensive pivots on our pressure list, Stealth Rock is a dead move.
Given that Sleep is off the table, I propose instead the approval of Toxic and Stun Spore as our status of preference.
Toxic offers the most pressure against Slowtwins and Blissey, and can no longer be assumed as a guaranteed move for good reason. I am aware Toxic has caused issues in the past with Equilibra and Astrolotl, but we are neither as bulky and resistant to hazards as Equilibra, nor as fast and able to punish Steel types as Astrolotl. STAB Fire + Toxic is so ridiculously effective against Steel types (perhaps not after Heatran drops, but for now it is) that it really defined Astrolotl (and Smokomodo as well.) 28 doesn't have those luxuries, even with Ground and Fighting coverage. We all know how huge STAB and an actual resistance is in those equations.
One could argue Stun Spore is a poor man's Thunder Wave, and that we already have Thunder with a 30% paralysis rate, but I really think Stun Spore is the better option. It doesn't hit Grass types or Overcoat Mandibuzz, but arguably you want to Toxic those, and Grass types want nothing to do with our Bug STAB. Amoonguss sticks out as immune to both, but Amoonguss' only options against us are really Toxic or Foul Play. Stun Spore has the benefit of hitting Ground types like Excadrill, Hippowdon, and Equilbra. NGas CAP28 could still run Stun Spore, but realistically are you going to devote a slot to just paralysis, or gamble with Thunder which can paralyze, but also grants incredible coverage?
Megahorn is one of our most important and strongest STAB options, allowing us to score an OHKO on Slowking with minimal chip, while hitting anything that doesn't resist it pretty hard. 252 Atk Neutralising Gas Haxorus Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Slowking: 432-510 (109.6 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Possible damage amounts: (432, 438, 440, 446, 452, 458, 462, 468, 474, 476, 482, 488, 492, 498, 504, 510)
Thunder is a pretty important coverage option, compressing the ability to hit targets like Toxapex, Tomohawk and Togekiss into one slot. 4 SpA Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 214-254 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (214, 218, 220, 222, 226, 228, 230, 232, 236, 238, 240, 242, 246, 248, 250, 254) 4 SpA Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (132, 134, 134, 136, 138, 140, 140, 142, 144, 146, 148, 148, 150, 152, 154, 156)
4 SpA Expert Belt Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 158-187 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (158, 161, 161, 163, 166, 168, 168, 170, 173, 175, 178, 178, 180, 182, 185, 187)
4 SpA Expert Belt Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 190-226 (50.8 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (190, 192, 194, 197, 199, 202, 204, 206, 209, 211, 214, 216, 218, 221, 223, 226)
4 SpA Expert Belt Mold Breaker Haxorus Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 245-290 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (245, 250, 252, 254, 257, 259, 264, 266, 269, 271, 274, 278, 281, 283, 286, 290)
Last slot boils down to how hard you want to hit certain targets - Earthquake gives you a chance to hit Dragapult neutrally, hits Aegislash hard and is your best bet on a Kerfluffle switch in and its generally the safest bet. Close Combat hits Blissey and Equilibra harder, however, so if you have a harder time versus these key Pokémon then it could be swapped in.
Heavy Duty Boots is an overall great item for longevity, but seeing as this set in particular benefits from aggressive play, Expert Belt may be a desirable option. Guaranteeing the 2HKO on Pex is mighty useful as well.
Your last slot is for a status move of choice. Guaranteed hit on Toxic provides an option to whittle down opponents slowly and put offensive pivot threats on a timer every time they come in on a hard switch or pivot. Stun Spore has 97% accuracy and can affect Ground types that Thunder can't strike. This is important for disrupting Pokemon like Equilibra or Hippowdon, who suffer greatly from losing a turn of Slack Off or setting Doom Desire to paralysis.
On coverage moves, I think we should avoid Poison and Steel moves, except for Bullet Punch. Bullet Punch does not pose a threat in and of itself, but what it does do is give CAP28 a good option against Scarf Jumbao, a decent follow-up on Dragapult, and a minor check to Kerfluffle and Togekiss so they aren't an immediate go-to on a First Impression set.
The basic set is a double priority set with Dragon Hammer / Dragon Claw (dependent on legality) for consistent damage and a 4th move to cover Steel types. Earthquake is the preferred move because it has fewer Pokemon resistant to the full set of moves, but Close Combat does more damage to Excadrill and Ferrothorn. Bullet Punch can't 2HKO any fairies, but it dissuades them from switching in every single time. Even fully invested Adamant, First Impression + Bullet Punch is not a KO generating machine. While Life Orb does turn a few things into 2HKOs, running Life Orb on a Pokemon as susceptible to hazards as CAP 28 is a bad idea, especially with a slot dedicated to a 40 BP priority move with few SE targets.
Some Calculations:
252+ Atk Snaelstrom First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kerfluffle: 46-55 (14.8 - 17.7%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kerfluffle: 112-134 (36.2 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kerfluffle: 139-164 (44.9 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom First Impression vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Togekiss: 38-45 (10.1 - 12%) -- possible 9HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Togekiss: 92-110 (24.5 - 29.4%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 110-130 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 66-78 (21.3 - 25.2%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 164-193 (53 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 181-214 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 110-130 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 50-59 (14.6 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumbao: 169-201 (52 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumbao: 102-120 (31.3 - 36.9%) -- 71.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 105-124 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 63-75 (19.8 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom First Impression vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora: 210-247 (66.2 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora: 31-37 (9.7 - 11.6%) -- possible 9HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 237-279 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 140-166 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 222-262 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Snaelstrom Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 134-158 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
As you can see, what Bullet Punch does is prevent First Impression from being a liability if an opponent has a 4x resist like Togekiss or Kerfluffle. Bullet Punch won't 2HKO either, but it does prevent them from switching in for free to an important option that keeps Zeraora at bay. Otherwise it is incredibly effective against offensive checks a pivot might hard switch into.
Supporting the exploration of Poison-type coverage, but I'm also going to advocate against Steel-type coverage. Poison as a coverage move is very targeted and extremely redundant with our STAB combo in a lot of ways. We only hit Grass and Fairy SE, and we already had the former in the bag with our Bug typing. Running Poison coverage is essentially dedicating an entire moveslot to hitting one type and not much else. Steel, meanwhile, has much more offensive power than Poison does. It adds to the targets we can hit SE much more than Poison does, faces less resistances, and lacks a full immunity.
Fairy-types are the designated common check to 28, and making it so our coverage type against them is exploitable means we lack a truly solid option against them. If you want to ruin the day of Fairies, you definitely can, but be prepared to have an otherwise useless move which does nothing to solve your issues with Steel-types. I think our BP limit for Poison Coverage should be Sludge Wave and Poison Jab. Anything more is really going above our boundaries. If we wish to preserve Jumbao as a good answer to 28, than we shouldn't go much higher than Poison Fang/Clear Smog, but both of those moves are pretty weak otherwise and probably not even worth running.
If we do go with Steel coverage, I'd be most comfortable with Smart Strike. Iron head is quite powerful and comes packed with an annoying 30% flinch chance, while Smart Strike is nothing but damage and no accuracy concern (like that's a big deal for us).
Poison OHKOs Jumbao, hits Primarina and Azumarill SE, Steel does not. Steel is far less dangerous coverage for us than Poison ever could be, and the argument of "Steel has better neutral coverage" doesn't really work when the only stuff it really hits SE other than Fairy types, aka Rock types, is taking a million from a STAB Megahorn or Dragon move. Turning Scarf Jumbao from a "you can come in once guaranteed and force out" to "you die" is not fun. Iron Head does not offer that, with its main benefit being putting Kerf into Megahorn Range.
Calcs:
252+ Atk Heracross Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 408-480 (125.5 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 228-268 (70.1 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Heracross Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 204-240 (62.7 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Heracross Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 224-264 (72.4 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
To Reiterate, I support having low BP options (that is 80 BP) from Steel on either side, being either Iron Head or Flash Cannon simply because the idea of being hard walled by an entire typing sits very badly with me. These low power options (80 is low) provide a release valve there, and allow for more synergistic compositions where you can aim to overwhelm answers for something like Dragapult.
Think I'm going to go against the grain here and use this post to defend Hypnosis.
Although I do realize that Hypnosis causes similar issues to the ones faced with pre-nerf Equi (namely the mind-games caused by BProof and the fact that it effectively had "two abilities"), and the concept of Sleep itself is very hard to play around, I think the fact that Hypnosis can be used to put only one pokemon to sleep at a time makes it far from unhealthy, atleast in my opinion.
I think this replay shows the shortcomings of Hypnosis fairly well, granted it will need a bit of explaining. At Turn 12, after the Blissey was put to sleep and switched out, Cawmodore (aka: general momentum stealer/pokemon that makes use out of a wasted turn) turned my CAP28 into setup bait by using my lack of Hypnosis or offensive answers to it to it's advantage. Granted, I could've still put Cawm to sleep because of Blissey's NCure, but the point stands that the turn after the sleep can be turned into huge momentum for the other team and is a "wasted turn" in a lot of circumstances, especially if the switch in is a CAP28 check/counter.
I also want to talk about one of the main reasons we chose to use Hypnosis: It gives us a reason to be on a team. As said on multiple occasions, this meta is oversaturated with dragons, the majority of them being offensive beasts. A specific example I want to discuss is Haxorus, a pokemon with a higher Atk stat than us, a higher speed, access to FI (albeit not STAB), arguably better setup, and solid coverage. Now, why would someone rationally want to use CAP28 over Haxorus (an already fairly niche mon)? Atm, I can only think of very niche circumstances (eg: when a mixed set is wanted or when STAB bug is required). In my opinion, Hypnosis gives us that niche, while also being nowhere near broken.
For my final point, I want to talk about something that i consider important, but realize is almost completely opinionated and probably requires more discussion... Hypnosis has a huge amount of synergy with hazards. UU roserade is an amazing example of how much sleep helps with reliable hazard setting. I can't stress it enough lol... if we go with a hazards route i'd say sleep would be an incredible (still not broken) weapon in our arsenal
Think that's it for now, probably will edit later if i find more replays/reasonings lol
I'd just like to point out there's a lot or at least equal amounts of movesets with Compound Eyes compared to Neutralizing Gas, and this was kinda expected with a lot of strong inaccurate special moves and because it's much easier to come up with a moveset involving Compound Eyes than Neutralizing Gas. That being said, Neutralizing Gas is our primary ability, and it feels like we are straying away from it. I don't really know how to make a set so I can't think of one.
Poison or Steel Coverage: Both of these types threaten fairy types, which is supposed to be a hard check to CAP28. Considering that Steel types are already covered decently with Fighting/Ground coverage, I don't think we also need to also have coverage against Fairy types. And like others said, these won't have much application that our electric/ground/fighting coverage can't hit. That being said, if we have to choose one of these though, I'd prefer steel since they have a weaker special attack, hits some fairies weaker like Quizel said above, and even if it has no immunities, steel still resists itself, and we have other coverage against steel anyways.
Other Coverage: Like people said early into moves discussion, I don't think we need more coverage than electric/ground/fighting, considering that this already hits a large amount of pivots effectively.
Hypnosis: I can't word my argument against Hypnosis but I really don't like knocking a Pokemon out of battle, especially against a strong attacker like CAP28. Also I feel people are underestimating Hypnosis' usefulness even without Compound Eyes, like we still hit Hypnosis more than half the time, and Neutralizing Gas can abuse disabling Natural Cure, potentially shutting down Kerfluffle which is supposed to at least check us.
Stealth Rocks: My opinion hasn't changed, I don't see the purpose of setting hazards when we can use force out a switch and attack the incoming pokemon or set up or disrupt them. I didn't know there was a lot of use of Heavy Duty Boots in the CAP meta, but this would be less of an incentive to actually use hazards.
I think this replay shows the shortcomings of Hypnosis fairly well, granted it will need a bit of explaining. At Turn 12, after the Blissey was put to sleep and switched out, Cawmodore (aka: general momentum stealer/pokemon that makes use out of a wasted turn) turned my CAP28 into setup bait by using my lack of Hypnosis or offensive answers to it to it's advantage. Granted, I could've still put Cawm to sleep because of Blissey's NCure, but the point stands that the turn after the sleep can be turned into huge momentum for the other team and is a "wasted turn" in a lot of circumstances, especially if the switch in is a CAP28 check/counter.
How is this supposed to be a demonstration of Hypnosis' shortcomings when you admit yourself you just misplayed vs Cawm? If anything all this replay does is showcase Cawm's ridiculousness. The last line seems more predicated on the Hypnosis user making poor plays than any perceived shortcomings of Hypnosis itself.
I also want to talk about one of the main reasons we chose to use Hypnosis: It gives us a reason to be on a team. As said on multiple occasions, this meta is oversaturated with dragons, the majority of them being offensive beasts. A specific example I want to discuss is Haxorus, a pokemon with a higher Atk stat than us, a higher speed, access to FI (albeit not STAB), arguably better setup, and solid coverage. Now, why would someone rationally want to use CAP28 over Haxorus (an already fairly niche mon)? Atm, I can only think of very niche circumstances (eg: when a mixed set is wanted or when STAB bug is required). In my opinion, Hypnosis gives us that niche, while also being nowhere near broken.
Is Neutralizing Gas not enough reason to be used? Is having the ability to go mixed effectively not enough reason to be used? Is having the ability to wear down Regen pivots much more quickly not enough of a unique difference between 28 and other dragons? The Haxorus comparison is honestly silly and feels like a poor attempt to undersell 28's kit. If you really think Haxorus is that much better than 28 and Hypnosis is the only thing that would differentiate it enough I don't know what to tell you. 'Nowhere near broken' is also a stretch considering recent evidence provided to the contrary.
I also want to talk about one of the main reasons we chose to use Hypnosis: It gives us a reason to be on a team. As said on multiple occasions, this meta is oversaturated with dragons, the majority of them being offensive beasts. A specific example I want to discuss is Haxorus, a pokemon with a higher Atk stat than us, a higher speed, access to FI (albeit not STAB), arguably better setup, and solid coverage. Now, why would someone rationally want to use CAP28 over Haxorus (an already fairly niche mon)? Atm, I can only think of very niche circumstances (eg: when a mixed set is wanted or when STAB bug is required). In my opinion, Hypnosis gives us that niche, while also being nowhere near broken.
G-Luke sent out cap28!
[The opposing cap28's Neutralizing Gas]
Neutralizing gas filled the area!
Turn 11 reachzero:That CAP28 did a lot though
The opposing cap28 used First Impression!
(Cicierega lost 100% of its health!)
Cicierega fainted!
That's a reason.
I also find it kind of disingenuous to use that particular replay to argue as to why Hypnosis isn't too much. You ran a subpar set, and made subpar plays (putting a Blissey to sleep instead of doing 50% with Megahorn. Using Megahorn against Cawmordore instead of putting it to sleep.), and then use that to justify why Hypnosis isn't problematic. Completely ignoring the foolish notion that no Hypnosis CAP 28 has no reason to be used, (despite Hypnosis always being intended to be a side option on the secondary ability?????), I'd like to see replays of Hypnosis not being a toxic option based on its own inherent flaws, not ones made by human error.
I think the Haxorus comparison is also completely inapt insofar as Neutralizing Gas is far better than Mold Breaker. This comparison in terms of we need move X otherwise Haxorus outclasses us is just bs.
Mold Breaker does negate abilities when an attack is being used, but it does not negate abilities in all other instances. Perhaps most importantly:
1) Neutralizing Gas means that if a Magic Guard Pokemon switches into CAP 28, it takes hazard damage (i.e. Krilowatt, perhaps less important here since there's no Clefable anymore. And I guess Syclant has Mountaineer too.) and similarly Pokemon with Levitate take Spikes damage (Equilibra? Rotom?)
and
2) Neutralizing Gas means that if a Regenerator Pokemon switches out of it, it does not get the 33% HP recovery.
It also may help in terms of keeping status on Natural Cure Pokemon like Blissey should a supportive/special attacking set be used. All of this is incredibly important to us in terms of how pivots work, since they very often have Magic Guard or Regenerator, and Natural Cure and Levitate are pretty good on them too.
Neutralizing Gas negates its opponent's abilities in general when they're moving, too, which Mold Breaker does not do. This includes things like ignoring Tomohawk's Intimidate or Prankster. It keeps Jumbao from setting sun, which will in turn keep Chlorophyll Pokemon slower. It keeps Rillaboom from setting Grassy Terrain, which in turn helps protect CAP 28 from Grassy Seed revenge killers like Hawlucha. I mean I could go on and on with things that Neutralizing Gas does that Mold Breaker does not do. We're not even primarily using Neutralizing Gas because we want the effects of Mold Breaker. This mon isn't primarily trying to avoid type immunity or damage reduction abilities, etc.
Back to the specific move recommended in question though, no we do not need Hypnosis to make CAP 28 somehow not outclassed by Haxorus. CAP 28 will be better specifically because it has a far more useful ability, as well as its ability to go mixed.
Nor do we need to give Hypnosis so that Compound Eyes is viable. There is no rule that 2 strong competitive abilities with very distinct sets need to exist. Indeed when we do this, it often proves broken in the teambuilder. You end up needing to carry 2 different checks to the CAP in order to cover both possible variations (think Equilibra before it was nerfed or even Cawmodore with Intimidate and Volt Absorb - at least in old gens Intimidate would also get run). I would think the existence of moves like Thunder or Dragon Rush that have been discussed are enough to keep Compound Eyes interesting. And these are fine because at the end of the day Compound Eyes CAP 28 vs Neutralizing Gas CAP 28 would both still be possible mixed attackers. But specifically adding in sleep moves which is now a very different and powerful niche is not necessary. If it turns out that Compound Eyes sets are outclassed by Neutralizing Gas sets, that's fine. Plenty of Pokemon and plenty of CAPs make use of only one viable ability.
Electric coverage is selected because Rocky Helmet Tomohawk would be the absolute bane of this set otherwise, which is all about forcing unproductive switches. Notably, this leaves us walled by Equilibra, but she cannot switch in with confidence until the opponent has scouted for Close Combat.
Coil boosts the accuracy of Thunder, Megahorn, and Dragon Tail. This makes us more consistent as a phazer a la Zygarde in USUM. Moreover, it turns us into a consistent breaker. Tomohawk is 2HKO'd by Thunder without investment. 116 EVs are in SpA mainly to threaten 2HKOs against Arghonaut and Toxapex.
Speed is uninvested. Lonely and Naughty are selected natures because Brave means being outsped by uninvested Tomohawk.
This set wants to survive long enough to deploy a negative-priority move, so HP is maxed out. All remaining EVs go into Atk. With the appropriate nature, this set has a 1/8 chance of killing max Def Slowking with unboosted Megahorn. Any hazards set up by a partner in the phazing/shuffling game greatly improve these odds. After one Coil (+1), it's not even a worry. Offensive Jumbao also dies to Megahorn at +1.
Leech Life is slashed with Megahorn for recovery's sake. This set has no other intrinsic recovery options. Therefore, it may be better to forbear the breaking power of Megahorn in the interest of longevity on stall-ier teams.
Hm, going through the replies I can see that my post wasn't worded well enough, so I want to try and clarify the two most criticized aspects of it:
the justification through the replay and the "reason to be on a team" statement. I
In regards to the replay, although I do agree that I misplayed, the fact still stands that opposing CAP28 switchins can still take advantage of 28's inability to touch them without Hypnosis (some examples being Kerf, Cawm, and the newly added Rhyperior). Alongside this, 28's already prevalent 4MSS will start to become a major detriment when running Hypnosis. The ubiquity and usefulness of FI means that on a set with FI+Hypnosis, 28 would be left with only 2 coverage options. Although that doesn't seem very bad on paper, the ability to run only two coverage options means that we'd be unable to fight back against a few of our common switchins. Dragon+Fighting leaves us countered by aegi/corv/toge/tomo/kerf, Dragon+Electric leaves us countered by kerf/ferro/rotoms/exca, Dragon+Ground leaves us countered by kerf/corv/ferro/hippo, and the list goes on.
In regards to the second statement I made, I just want to say right off the bat that after reading the posts in reply to this specific section, I've realized that the comparison I made to Haxorus was fallacious. I do still think that we need a bit more to differentiate ourselves from other dragons, but i agree that we have a very solid niche. When I said "Hypno gives us a reason to be on a team" I meant to say that it gave us a reason in addition to the ones that we already had, although i do see how that statement coupled with the ones below it could be taken in the wrong way (in my defense it was very late :P).
To summarize: 28's switchins can still take advantage of CAP28 after Hypno's been used, the usage of hypno essentially means that CAP would only have 3 moves, worsening it's 4MSS (which is my argument here for it not being broken, if that wasn't clear), the Haxorus comparison was false and a mistake on my part, for which i apologise.
Aaaand i think that's it lol, i apologise if i've messed anything up again and/or made any stupid arguments, i seem to be very good at that apparently :P
We've got the results back from the Dragon Hammer poll and the people have spoken! Dragon Hammer is henceforth approved, replacing Dragon Claw in sets.
Now lets hit some blacklists, thanks for the discussion on them.
Hypnosis: It's clear that public opinion has shifted drastically on this one. While it is not "broken" in a sense, the threat of it on Compound Eyes sets is both irritating and arguably unhealthy. The arguments brought up in defense have been disproven by those in thread, so I think the communities ruling is clear. Blacklisting Hypnosis.
U-turn: U-turn by nature is a move that kind of goes contrary to our concept at whole. Our goal is to dissuade pivoting to some extent, but doing so by using a pivoting move ourselves I think misses the point. The more important reason is that CAP28 already has some really great tools at its disposal, and adding U-turn does mesh with our current roles and would ultimately be something that just adds extra power for no reason. Blacklisting U-turn.
Fire- and Ice-type Coverage: The outcry hasn't been too large about them, but I think these moves just fall into an area of redundancy with regards to CAP28. Ice-type coverage pretty cleanly fills the role that Dragon-type STAB fills with a few extra perks, and while Fire-type isn't a perfect transition in place of Bug-type coverage it also hits a lot of the same thing both it and Fighting-type coverage hit. Considering the coverage we already have I think it would be redundant to get such coverage. Blacklisting Fire- and Ice-type coverage higher than 65 BP.
Psychic- and Rock-type Coverage: I brought up both Stone Edge and Psychic Fangs as a possible blacklist, and I have heard no objections about it. I have decided to upgrade the blacklist to all Psychic-type and Rock-type coverage, since that does include moves that still remain usable coverage such as Psychic, Rock Slide, and Zen Headbutt. Blacklisting Psychic- and Rock-type coverage higher than 65 BP.
I would also like to issue blacklist warnings for Knock Off, Scale Shot, and Spikes. None of these moves have gotten any discussion really, but would absolutely have effects on CAP28 in a way I think is negative. Scale Shot can be seen as an outlier, but its effects could simulate Speed + Offense boosting moves previously blacklisted on Swords Dance / Nasty Plot sets and that is not an effect that would like to be added. If you would like to object to these moves being added to the blacklist, you have 24 hours to do so.
Additionally, I will be approving Leech Life and Dragon Rush. These moves are very niche and realistically will not be used in the vast majority of played sets, but there is generally no issue with them otherwise. Honestly, they'll sneak onto movepools anyways. Approved.
Finally, I would like to bring up a couple more moves for discussion: Outrage, Recover, and Toxic Spikes. Outrage is a move that can generally be seen as inferior to the newly added Dragon Hammer, but it is still a very powerful move in its own right and can absolutely be put on a set like Choice Band and do good work. It can't just skirt its way through in limbo. Recover is an option that has made the rounds in Discord and could be a very solid way of bolstering CAP28's survivability in exchange for a moveslot, but it is regardless a powerful option that needs to be discussed. Toxic Spikes is one that has actually come up in thread before, and I believe it needs a much more solid discussion on it after talking about Stealth Rocks.
I’m fine with Recover, uncertain on Toxic Spikes, but very much against Outrage. Any niche moveset that prefers Outrage over Dragon Hammer is focused on targeting something other than pivots; the last thing an Anti-Pivot mon wants is three turns of predictable action. Frankly, I’d be down to outright blacklist it.
Dragon Hammer outclasses Outrage, and Outrage is universal on essentially every single dragon, it should be on this mon.
Recover seems very fine, and honestly, helps out concept a bit by giving us something to do on turns where we guaranteed force out a mon. I also think its like, very mediocre, but at the same time, flexibility is appreciated, I think this is a good addition.
Outrage is fine, it's not as useful as Hammer and as quz said it's 99% universal among dragons. I also agree with them that Recover gives 28 the kind of flexibility that doesn't distract from it's intended uses, so I'm all for it. My stance on TSpikes remains the same as it has been tbh, I've seen some test games but nothing has convinced me that it's actually any good. Hazards in general just feel like tack-ons to boost overall viability so I'd be fine with blacklisting the lot.
