CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

[HeaLnDeaL]

As per the results of our Typing Poll, CAP22 will be a Fairy/Fighting typed Pokemon. Based on this result and on the goals of our concept, we will in this thread be assessing how and to what degree the CAP should interact with various other Pokemon in the metagame, both offensively and defensively. The goal is to come up with a list of Pokemon the CAP should threaten in common gameplay scenarios, as well as Pokemon that should threaten the CAP. Our Topic Leader sparktrain will be leading the discussion and finalizing the Threats list at the conclusion of this thread. The final say belongs to the TL (there will be no poll at the end of this thread), so please focus your arguments on his posts and questions. Here are some preliminary questions to think about in this thread:

• Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the CAP metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?
• What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
• What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
• What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
• Will the concept succeed with these set list of threats?
• Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
• What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
• Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
• Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
• What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
• What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
• What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?

Obviously, no individual post has to answer every question. Please keep the assumptions minimal (e.g. "CAP22 will have at least one STAB") to avoid poll-jumping. This thread will be opened once sparktrain has posted his opening remarks.

- - - - -

CAP22 so far:

Leadership Team:

sparktrain - Topic Leader
Elite Lord Sigma - Typing Leader
snake_rattler - Abilities Leader
Deck Knight- Stats Leader
cbrevan- Movepool Leader

Typing: Fairy / Fighting

Concept:

Name: Last Act of Defiance

General Description: A Pokemon that is defined by its use of the move Parting Shot.

Justification: Parting Shot is another move that's pretty amazing on paper, but its true usage has yet to be fully explored because it's only available to Pangoro. Pangoro is not the most viable Pokemon OU and is nearly unusable in CAP due to its 4x weakness to Fairy. Moreover, when I've used it in RU (prior it to being banned) and UU, I found myself clicking an attacking move more often than not. With the optimal Parting Shot user in the CAP metagame, we may be able to tap into this move's potential and figure out how it is best utilized. Maybe Last Act of Defiance will be a fast Pokemon that aims to keep up offensive momentum. Maybe it'll use the move like it would use Memento to help a teammate use a boosting move. Maybe it'll be a slow, bulky pivot intended to discourage switching. Maybe it'll do something completely different.

This falls under both actualization and archetype in terms of being a concept. In terms of actualization, it will teach us how to use Parting Shot "properly." Clearly, no other Pokemon, not even Pangoro, comes close to it. Well, users of U-turn, Volt Switch, and Memento come somewhat close, but even then, we'll be able to see what makes Parting Shot different from (and possibly better than) them. In terms of archetype, Last Act of Defiance will give not just the CAP metagame, but also the whole game of Pokemon, a utility Pokemon that we've never seen before, as Parting Shot was not (and still isn't) one of Pangoro's most important assets. Because Parting Shot has so many potential uses, a utility Pokemon such as this can be the ultimate team player for offensive and defensive archetypes alike.

Questions To Be Answered:
- Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?
- Considering Pangoro rarely finds the time to use the move, how much should a Pokemon be willing to sacrifice another offensive option for Parting Shot?
- What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento?
- Pangoro is definitely not the ideal Parting Shot user, so what does the ideal user look like?
- What strategies, whether they be certain Pokemon, playstyles, or other factors, will rise to prominence to combat a Parting Shot user?

 

[sparktrain]

Hey everyone. As a result of our most recent poll, we decided in a majority vote that CAP 22 will be a dual Fairy / Fighting type Pokemon. The next step is for us to decide which individual threats as well as general groups of Pokemon will serve as checks and/or counters to CAP 22, as well as what we'd like for CAP 22 to threaten.

An important point to remember for this stage is that we're not just making purely type-based observations here; we're actively making decisions about what we'd like to threaten CAP 22, as well as what we'd like CAP 22 to threaten. For example, based on our typing alone, CAP 22 poses a heavy threat to Dark-types. It's also left with weaknesses to forms of priority including Bullet Punch and Talonflame's Brave Bird and Acrobatics. Information such as this is mostly apparent, but not necessarily helpful in terms of driving the discussion forward-- our job right now is to figure out whether we want to threaten or be threatened by certain Pokemon. At the end of the discussion, I'll be concluding this thread with a threat list, and it will help guide us throughout the rest of the creation process.

Keep the original concept in mind when posting! We're looking to thoroughly analyze how Parting Shot will function on this Pokemon, so naturally it will help for us to focus not only on what types of Pokemon CAP 22 can threaten offensively, but also what types of Pokemon will be attempting to switch into CAP 22, as well as the potential target group of Pokemon we'd like for CAP 22 to be using Parting Shot on.

So, the big questions I'd like to focus on right now are these:

1) Taking into account the expected offensive tendencies of a Fairy / Fighting type Pokemon, which Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to offensively threaten or force out? Which of these Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to switch into safely?

2) Which Pokemon should be able to safely switch into CAP 22's moves (with the exception of Parting Shot)? Is there a specific target group CAP 22 should aim to use Parting Shot against, and how can these Pokemon be drawn in?

3) Taking into account CAP 22's access to a fast Parting Shot, what would we like the primary methods of checking it to be?

 

[Agile Turtle]

• What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?

Talonflame, resisting both STABS, and if no parting shot on the switch, then you have to switch out normally. Will be quite annoying.

• What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?

Tomohawk, while weak to fairy STAB, also has Flying STAB to hit CAP22 back with for SE damage, too. Oh and it has prankster Taunt to screw over your chance to parting shot.

3) Taking into account CAP 22's access to a fast Parting Shot, what would we like the primary methods of checking it to be?
Priority. Priority taunt, from our friends Tomohawk and Thundurus. Priority bravebird from Talonflame, which will really hurt.

Fire types like Talonflame, Charizard, hell even Volcarona, etc, resisting both STABs, can come in without any fear.

Poison types, with their innate resistance to both STAB will have field days with this CAP. Mollux for one would love to come in and resist anything CAP can throw at it while it launches its SE STAB. Tentacruel too.

Some bulky steel types will have no problem either. Scizor would love to come in, and has SD incase it doesn't jsut wanna pivot right back out too. Metagross will love this, especially pre-mega, because megagross will love being able to avoid the stat drops, and can even get a bullet punch in before CAP escapes due to priority.

Bulky Psychic types types like the aforementioned metagross, Jirachi, celebi, slowbro, etc will love this. Jirachi is one of the mons that would love to paralyze fastCAP, too.

Flying types will love this as well. Not just the fire/flyings that resist both STABs. Thundurus, with prankster will be really screwy with CAP, it can come in and taunt CAP, or parlyze it with priority. At this point in the process there is no way to tell just how fast CAP22 will end up, but a lot of flying types are fast, and will like the spam their flying type moves. Scarfraptor will throw its brave birds no matter CAP22's speed. But other mons like pidgeot may or may not like to spam their moves depending on how fast this CAP ends up. (Tornadus-t and M-Pidggeot both sit at 121 speed as a note) EDIT: ooh big one! Cawmodore gonna have fun with this.

It's late but I just had some thoughts I wanted to post so I did :/. I hope my thoughts were coherent.

 

[Alchemister]

When you say fairy/fighting, what is the first idea to sit in this mon's way and do whatever they want? More often than not, it's gonna be bulky poison types. From those, Mollux, Plasmanta and possibly Gengar really hate their offences being lowered. Crucibelle, neutral to Fighting as a bonus, does too. The problem comes with those who care less, such as Fidgit or Mega Venusaur and of course Amoonguss, who cares hardly at all. Other very rare possiblities are Tentacruel (cares about as low as Fidgit) and Nidoking (cares a lot).

A propos, who doesn't care about their offences being lowered? Three categories. Setup sweepers that can tank it all or outsetup it, walls and non-offensive utilities.

Clefable can be all three of those with the right set and typically can make some trouble. The difference is, Clefable often does care about SpA drop, turning her meh offences into virtually nonexistent.

If we go physical, physically bulky Cawmodore can setup right in our faces. But, having a pivoting move, we're somewhat protected against double-switch shenanigans and can pivot into our anti-Camw, which any sane CAP team has anyway.
Again if we go physical, getting physical neutral STAB Fighting move is possibly the best we can do (or at least, the best we're sure enough we can do) to Skarmory. Iron bird doesn't care and continues doing whatever it wants.

Tomohawk is, as stated above, a weird case - neither of us wants to switch into each other and when we're facing each other, it's a battle of speed, reads and set differences (Taunt versus Parting Shot, Fairy STAB versus Hurricane/Air Slash, possibly even Nature Power and Reflect into the mix in case of defensive Tomo and physical CAP22).

Fire/Flyings - Talonflame and Megazard Y - can tank anything we throw at them as well, but don't like their attacking stats being reduced. In case of Talon, this has to be on switch read though, because of the priority Brave Bird. Volcarona and possibly (improbably) even Delphox belong here as well; they are a non-issue most of the time tho'.

Scizor and Landorus-T don't care much about anything we do, again especially if we go physical, and can both setup in our face or slow U-Turn from Parting Shot, netting a switch advantage and a tiny bit of damage.

Azumarill and Volkraken/Volcanion are weird cases, mostly good targets to Parting Shot, but I'm not sure we want to stay in on them.

 

[Alfalfa]

1) Taking into account the expected offensive tendencies of a Fairy / Fighting type Pokemon, which Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to offensively threaten or force out? Which of these Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to switch into safely?

Forcing out Mega Sableye, Tyranitar, Keldeo, Latios, Mega Altaria, Tomohawk, Garchomp, Heatran and Ferrothorn is important for our CAP, as many of these are primary targets for our CAP due to its natural typing.
2) Which Pokemon should be able to safely switch into CAP 22's moves (with the exception of Parting Shot)? Is there a specific target group CAP 22 should aim to use Parting Shot against, and how can these Pokemon be drawn in?
Poison-types, such as Fidgit, Mega Venusaur, and Plasmanta. Most of these, except for Fidgit, despise Parting Shot, and will naturally switch in to CAP 22. Fire-types apply as well, naturally checking our CAP but despising Parting Shot.

3) Taking into account CAP 22's access to a fast Parting Shot, what would we like the primary methods of checking it to be?
Passive checks, such as Fidgit, that do not care about Parting Shot at all, Clefable, which is a variable in its own right, and Fire-types, such as Mollux, though they are not going to like Parting Shot.

(NOTE: This will be expanded on later in the day)

 

[Billy the Uncle]

OK, so here's my take on the subject.

1) Taking into account the expected offensive tendencies of a Fairy / Fighting type Pokemon, which Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to offensively threaten or force out? Which of these Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to switch into safely?

Fighting types that use Rock or Dark moves as coverage will give CAP22 good switch-in opportunities, as well as any Pokémon that commonly uses moves CAP22 resists or is immune to.

Given CAP22's nature as a pivot, the number of Pokémon it threatens out should be much larger than the number of Pokémon it will be able to switch into. For instance, CAP22 can easily scare Heatran house, but can't switch in without fearing a Flash Cannon to the face or a Lava Plume burn.

Also CAP22 will likely NOT be able to OHKO every one of the Pokémon it has the advantage on from full HP, so we must take in account that some Pokémon CAP22 should scare out can stay in, predicting the Parting Shot or taking a hit to retaliate with a strong move. I take the chance to say that the predictive nature of pivoting moves, and especially Parting Shot, creates strong mindgames with all the Pokémon CAP22 scares away.

2) Which Pokemon should be able to safely switch into CAP 22's moves (with the exception of Parting Shot)? Is there a specific target group CAP 22 should aim to use Parting Shot against, and how can these Pokemon be drawn in?

The obvious Talonflame, Poison types (especially the most stally ones, which don't care about being hit by Parting Shot) and various resists that can threaten CAP22 both offensively and defensively have already been mentioned and I won't spend a lot of words on them.

However a category I think should be mentioned are Magic Bounce users (and Rebound Colossoil). Espeon and Xatu, albeit uncommon, can threaten us with Psychic attacks and will reverse the Parting Shot on CAP22, giving a teammate a free switch if they predict and switch into CAP22 on the Parting Shot. Mega Absol is murdered by our STABs, same with Mega Sableye and Colossoil, but with good prediction they can be annoying. Mega Diancie is neutral to both our STABs and can hit us super effectively. Clefable is reasonably fat and resists Fighting, so it should be able to take a hit and Moonblast CAP22's ass or Thunder Wave it.

Since we're making a pivot and not a wallbreaker, most reasonably bulky Pokémon CAP22 can't hot super-effectively will be able switch in with relative ease (except Parting Shot). Bulky waters are a good example.

3) Taking into account CAP 22's access to a fast Parting Shot, what would we like the primary methods of checking it to be?

The primary method of checking CAP22 will be to outspeed it and hit it before it can Parting Shot away, or hit it through priority. Talonflame here is the main threat again, as CAP22 won't be able to outspeed SmogonBird's signature Brave Birds (unless we go out of our way specifrically for this). Status will be a major threat to CAP22 as well, especially paralysis since it will negate the fast part in "fast Parting Shot". Klefky will most likely be able to withstand a hit, doesn't give a damn about having its offenses reduced, and can Prankster Thunder Wave CAP22. Same with Clefable without the prankster part. Burn will also hurt, especially is CAP22 will use physical attacks to threaten its targets out.

CAP22 resist Stealth Rock but it's grounded, and given its role as a pivot it won't enjoy Spikes on its side of the field. Sticky Web also will also reduce its Speed and make it a less capable pivot, but it's less common than Spikes.

 

[Trox]

1) Taking into account the expected offensive tendencies of a Fairy / Fighting type Pokemon, which Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to offensively threaten or force out? Which of these Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to switch into safely?

Dark, Bug or Dragon Types are our easiest switch-in opportunities, since CAP22 either quad resists or is immune to their STAB.
Dark and Dragon types are also offensively threatened if they don't have a secondary STAB/coverage to do damage to CAP22.

Parting Shot is supposted to be used to pivot, so the best use might be against offensive Pokemon that actually want to do damage.
We still gain momentum against defensive/support mons, but it's not that usefull if they clicked Toxic/TWave rather than an attacking move that would now be at -1.
So I think we should actually discourage our opponent to switch in such pokemon on CAP22.

2) Which Pokemon should be able to safely switch into CAP 22's moves (with the exception of Parting Shot)? Is there a specific target group CAP 22 should aim to use Parting Shot against, and how can these Pokemon be drawn in?

Given that Poison types resist both our STABs and can switch in on these easily, they will already be naturally drawn in by CAP22.
We can also switch in on normal resisted hits like Rock or Fighing type attacks.
Talonflame is also very dangerous. It resists both our stabs, can threaten us with SE priority Brave Birds / Acrobatics or can SD against the drops from PS.

Like said above, I think PS should be used against offensive Pokemon. Specifically strong attackong Pokemon that usually don't run setup moves to get rid of the dropf from PS.

3) Taking into account CAP 22's access to a fast Parting Shot, what would we like the primary methods of checking it to be?

Priority Flying or Steel type attacks can damage CAP22 greatly before it can PS out.
Paralysis will be one of CAP22's natural enemies (especially if backed up by prankster), as it is planned to be built around a fast PS. Prankster Taunt shuts down PS completely, which is something we should keep in mind.
Poison types also have a fairly easy game against CAP22, especially if they don't care much about a stat drop from PS.
Also a slow U-Turn or Volt Switch immediately renders the stat drops useless while shifting battle momentum back to the opponent.

 

[Project_Mars]

Given that three fairly common set-up sweepers (Aurumoth, Azumarill, and Cawmador) can switch in on a resisted attack and threaten us out while boosting, how much should PS'Mon care about that and should we resolve to do something about it? Azumarill and Cawmador don't care too much about Parting Shot thanks to Belly Drum, since +5 still hits like a freight train, while Aurumoth does care a bit more about the -1 drops from Parting Shot. Should we make an attempt to make these Pokemon a little worried about coming in, or let them force us out whenever they get sent out?

 

[ThePsychoBear]

1) Taking into account the expected offensive tendencies of a Fairy / Fighting type Pokemon, which Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to offensively threaten or force out? Which of these Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to switch into safely?
Fighting Types, Dark Types, Bug Types, and Dragons should be switched into without effort.
CAP 22 should check, Hydreigon, Breloom, Tyranitar, Weavile, and Malaconda very easily.

2) Which Pokemon should be able to safely switch into CAP 22's moves (with the exception of Parting Shot)? Is there a specific target group CAP 22 should aim to use Parting Shot against, and how can these Pokemon be drawn in?
Mega Venusaur, Gengar, Xatu, Talonflame, Charizard Y, and Volcarona
Parting shot should always be used on Choice Sweepers to give yourself a chance against them.
I'm not sure how they'd be drawn in though.

3) Taking into account CAP 22's access to a fast Parting Shot, what would we like the primary methods of checking it to be?
Anything with Contrary, Magic Bounce, Defiant, or Belly Drum, and anything with Prankster Taunt.
AND THE (Not So)ALMIGHTY VOLCARONA!


But still, Volcarona is a hard counter to this thing.

 

[Alfalfa]

I want to mention this on a separate post than the original one I made: our CAP cannot afford to lose against Skarmory, primarily because it can Whirlwind out whatever Pokemon our CAP Parting Shots into (except Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye). There are multiple different ways where our CAP can threaten Skarmory, but we need to avoid assuming at this point that our CAP will be naturally able to deal enough damage to Skarmory in one hit to deter it from switching in. Losing to Skarmory, a common Pokemon on both balance and stall that does not resist both of the CAP's STABs and commonly runs phazing moves, possesses very consequences for our CAP, and we need to keep this in mind.

 

[Korski]

Fairy / Fighting is an expressly anti-Darkmon typing, so we should make sure this CAP obliterates all the Dark-types in the tier: Colossoil, Bisharp, Sableye, Malaconda, Weavile, Crawdaunt, Mega Gyarados, and Mandibuzz (do people use Mandibuzz still?). I'll note that, conveniently, these are all physical attackers and none of them have SE attacks to hit us with, except Bisharp (oh, the irony), so switching into them can (and should) be accomplished by stats. Sableye and Malaconda, unfortunately, can still status us on the switch-in, so that may need to be addressed as well. I do think it's important to make this CAP a blanket check to Dark spam, or else we'd be wasting the limited defensive attributes of this typing.

Speaking of status, especially of the sort Malaconda likes to throw around, Paralysis is probably going to be enough to ruin this CAP for the entire match. As it stands, we've got no protection from Thunder Wave and pretty bad matchups against the Pranksters that carry it. I'd so much rather pull in Thundurus-I, who is really bummed out by Parting Shot (and SR), than Klefki, who literally could not care less, so if we can find a way to make that happen it would make this CAP better, imo.

I'll post this for now as I gather my thoughts on other things, but I have some stray thoughts I'd like to jot down:

• We should absolutely let Fire-types like Talonflame, Volcarona, Volcanion, Volkraken, Charizard, Victini, and Mollux switch in with confidence. They all hate -1 Atk/SpA and get shredded by hazards.
• We should find a way to mess with stallmons; right now we have very few options left for preventing CAP from being dead weight against like 90% of them (especially Skarmory and Clefable)
• Correct me if I'm wrong, but Belly Drum will still boost Caw and Azu to +6 even if they start at -1, not that it matters much as they will both sweep through this CAP.

 

[jas61292]

I think Korski hit on some key things. Dark Pokemon are definitely something we need to check and check hard, or else our typing is a waste defensively. Obviously we may not be able to check them all perfectly, especially Bisharp thanks to STAB Iron Head, but they should all be threatened once we are in, and almost all of them we should aim to be able to switch into.

On the other hand, Fire Pokemon, especially ones with secondary types that resist fighting such as Talonflame and Mollux should be able to check us hard, outside of Parting Shot. Our goal should be to weaken our checks through using Parting Shot on them, but not being able to take them on directly. It is also important that our supposed checks be actually able to check us, so including Pokemon that we can't just stay in and pivot on, is important. Talonflame has priority Brave Bird which does that job nicely, and guys like Mollux and Volkraken and a few others are known to don Choice Scarves, making staying in on them, regardless of our speed, a significant risk. This is a good thing that we should aim to keep in tact.

And also, as Korski mentioned, we want to be able to threaten stall Pokemon. Bulky guys who don't care about direct damage as much really could not care less about Parting Shot. If they are all happy to come in on CAP22, we will not be very successful. This is especially true for Pokemon with phazing moves, as not only do they not care about Parting Shots drops, but they also can negate the switch advantage it gives. Ultimately, while we may or may not want to be a stall/wall breaker, we need to at least choose a number of bulky Pokemon to be able to outright threaten.

 

[Deck Knight]

1) Taking into account the expected offensive tendencies of a Fairy / Fighting type Pokemon, which Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to offensively threaten or force out? Which of these Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to switch into safely?

Tomohawk and Colossoil are two of the biggest limiting factors on CAP22, and both have methods of punishing CAP for coming in. That said, Soil's Knock Off is basically a free switchin and Tomohawk can often be played through the use of a hazard setter to force it to Rapid Spin. CAP can also have allies that cause Tomohawk to want to use Aura Sphere rather than Air Slash/Hurricane. Either way, once it's in it should be able to either OHKO or 2HKO these threats without being OHKOd or 2HKOd first.

Otherwise general typing rules apply, and any Dragon, Steel, Normal, or Dark type weak to CAP's STAB moves should be forced out.

2) Which Pokemon should be able to safely switch into CAP 22's moves (with the exception of Parting Shot)? Is there a specific target group CAP 22 should aim to use Parting Shot against, and how can these Pokemon be drawn in?

Bulky Poison types already resist both STABs and are the best immediate answers. Mega Venusaur, Mollux, and Plasmanta all fit the bill and all dislike having their offenses lowered as it robs them of OHKOs or 2HKOs.

3) Taking into account CAP 22's access to a fast Parting Shot, what would we like the primary methods of checking it to be?
Talonflame is particularly prominent with super-effective priority, but generally speaking a greater number of offensive Scarfed threats will bypass CAP and be able to threaten it before Parting Shot. Bulky Pokemon that don't care so much about stat drops because they set up hazards or phaze will also be common switchins, though they will likely need a resistance as Fighting caries some very strong moves off of both attacking stats, and Fairy moves have effects that compound with Parting Shot.

Of the types I don't think we need to threaten directly, I think Poison and Fire types fit that bill the best. Since a great number of stall-oriented Pokemon are Fighting-neutral Steel types, I think CAP should be able to threaten them outside of parting shot. Particularly, I think CAP should have a mechanism distinct from Parting Shot to hold off Mega Metagross, Jirachi, and Skarmory, the 3 most prominent examples of those Pokemon.

 

[Ignus]

I honestly don't think there's much else to say - we already talked about who we want to come in on us and who we want to scare off in typing quite a bit. Generally, we want mons who are weak to hazards and who lack decent recovery to come in on us. Dealing with the stuff that don't have at least one of those two traits, or that can go boost crazy despite parting shot should be what we should first be focusing on smashing up. That way, we force our opponent to switch in something that parting shot will be the most effective against! Yay!


Here's my personal short list of mons that our typing doesn't naturally handle very well, but have surprisingly good resistance to parting shot usage. In other words, the stuff we still should (probably) scare but don't quite yet.

• BD users (caw and azu)
• misc regenerator mons (most notably Tornadus-T, though I worry threatening it would get in the way of baiting other flying types, which is actually a bad thing. )
• High recovery Fatties who just spam status rather than damage (Slowbro, etc)
• Scizor
• Crucibelle (that is, if it doesn't interfere with baiting out fire types. While it doesn't deal with PS that well, it still has great recovery from regenerator or an SR immunity in its mega form. Just the kind of stuff we should hit hard)

Things I care less about threatening that have been mentioned include Landy-T, mostly because the best recovery he has is leftovers, and due to him not particularly 'enjoying' hazard damage. Also, I'm sort of neutral about poison types threatening us in general - I don't think it's a particularly bad thing to let them, but I don't think it's good to give things like mega-Venu more chances to poison our team with sludge bomb. If anything, we should probably look at threatening Poison Types on a case by case basis, rather than just saying 'Both our stabs are resisted by it so we should just let them do what they want'. This is especially the case with us liking Molluxes coming in on us, but disliking crucibelle doing the same. Probably, looking more towards some other method than 'hit poison types super effectively' is the best choice for picking and choosing our poison counters, like status, taunt, or some other fun utility based goodies.

 

[Alfalfa]

Ignus Crucibelle does not resist Stealth Rock, its mega forme is merely immune to passive damage. I recognize that Crucibelle can be problematic, but I think Scizor and Skarmory are bigger threats to CAP 22 because the former has STAB Technician Bullet Punch, which can deal a lot of damage to CAP 22 before it can even use Parting Shot, whereas the latter can Whirlwind out whatever Pokemon switches in as a result of Parting Shot.

 

[snake]

I think Crucibelle and Mega Crucibelle are good targets for us to be able to use Parting Shot against. It certainly doesn't appreciate its offenses being lowered, and I think if we had some other way to beat it, we'd be missing out on a prime target for Parting Shot.

 

[Ignus]

It may not naturally resist it, but the base for has access to regenerator and the mega form is entirely immune - which, as far as I'm concerned, is basically resisting it. I just misspoke in my original post, sorry. I've edited the wording to make it more clear what I meant. Also, while it doesn't appreciate having its offenses lowered that much, it does have access to u-turn, which was one of the things we said we should be generally trying to avoid. I don't think we should be putting ourselves in that sort of lose-lose situation.

Like I said, I'm only really for handling it if it doesn't get in the way of luring fire types, which means ground coverage wouldn't be the way to do it. It's just I don't think we should be dismissing it as 'poison type, let it come in' and should be looking at it with regards to how well it deals with chip damage, regardless of how well PS works on it.

 

[frostover32]

Hello, this is my first time posting to one of these discussion threads. I have lurked through the forum for a while and have been with this cap since the beginning. I want to discuss Kitsunoh because, while I do not think it is a major threat to this cap, it has some aspects I do think are worth talking about.
Firstly, Kit's typing lets it handle cap's stab moves with ease and hit it back with super effective steel move. Kit's typing and ability in limber also gives it immunity to some support move cap might use.
Kit also has a few ways to cripple cap or at least make it less effective pivot. Since we have decided to make cap 22 a fast pivot, if kit is slower and predicts a parting shot, momentum might shift to your opponent. More dangerous , imo, is kit's ability to burn or trick a choice item onto cap 22.
Burn really only effects cap if it goes physical, but trick is harmful no matter how cap is built. Choice items eliminate cap's ability to switch to coverage moves, potentially lock it into a support move, and stops cap from using parting shot on the fly. While a scarf may help out speeding other scarfers, which this poke struggles with anyway, and the right damage boost would be nice, the option to switch moves is to fundamental to the concept. Also, this thing will not inflict to much damage without a damage boost or applying SE damage.
In truth, I see Kitsunoh more useful as a way to cripple cap 22 from the start rather then straight up threatening it, as a coverage move would probably threaten kit right back. Although that could be a good thing as a crippled pivot is easier to handle in some cases. What do you guy think, especially on how effective trick will be on cap 22.

 

[Alfalfa]

Kitsunoh in general we have to consider whether or not we want it to switch into us and be affected by Parting Shot. By typing alone, it does, but in general, most of its sets rely on some degree of offensive pressure, including the Will-O-Wisp sets, meaning it will dislike Parting Shot to a degree.

 

[emma]

1) Taking into account the expected offensive tendencies of a Fairy / Fighting type Pokemon, which Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to offensively threaten or force out? Which of these Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to switch into safely?
Obviously dark types such as Colossoil and Weavile are weak to CAP 22's STAB attacks while other dark types such as Mega Sableye and Bisharp can take a fighting / fairy move respectively but lose to the other STAB move. Dragons, other fighting types, normal types, ice types, rock types, and to an extent, steel types are all threatened out by the fairy / fighting STAB.

2) Which Pokemon should be able to safely switch into CAP 22's moves (with the exception of Parting Shot)? Is there a specific target group CAP 22 should aim to use Parting Shot against, and how can these Pokemon be drawn in?
Talonflame comes to mind as it takes both fairy and fighting moves with it's fire/flying typing. Poison types in general like Mega Crucibelle and Mega Venusaur can take both STAB attacks with ease as it resists both types. Fire types, Flying Types, Psychic Types, and Fairy Types can all come in on one of CAP 22's STABs but gets hit neutrally by the other.

3) Taking into account CAP 22's access to a fast Parting Shot, what would we like the primary methods of checking it to be?
Serperior instantly comes to mind as it actually benifets from Parting Shot with the Contrary Ability. Regenerator pokemon such as Tornadus-T can come on in on Parting Shot, take the drop, and then U-Turn out regaining any HP it lost due to SR. Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie, with Magic Bounce, can bounce back the drops to CAP 22 but unfortunately the Magic Bounce user will still get switched out. Soundproof pokemon are also immune to Parting Shot but unfortunately there are no viable Soundproof pokemon in the CAP metagame. Strong priorty moves such as Talonflame's Brave Bird or Scizor's Bullet Punch can hurt CAP 22 a lot as they are super effective. Magic Coat users such as Mega Gardevoir can bounce back Parting Shot and lower CAP 22's stats instead. Priorty Taunt can also be useful in checking CAP 22 as it stops its signeture move. Lastly, support mons like Klefki and Slowbro don't care about their offensive stats being lowered and can threaten back with Thunder Wave.

 

[Empress]

I honestly don't think there's much else to say - we already talked about who we want to come in on us and who we want to scare off in typing quite a bit. Generally, we want mons who are weak to hazards and who lack decent recovery to come in on us. Dealing with the stuff that don't have at least one of those two traits, or that can go boost crazy despite parting shot should be what we should first be focusing on smashing up. That way, we force our opponent to switch in something that parting shot will be the most effective against! Yay!


Here's my personal short list of mons that our typing doesn't naturally handle very well, but have surprisingly good resistance to parting shot usage. In other words, the stuff we still should (probably) scare but don't quite yet.

• BD users (caw and azu)
• misc regenerator mons (most notably Tornadus-T, though I worry threatening it would get in the way of baiting other flying types, which is actually a bad thing. )
• High recovery Fatties who just spam status rather than damage (Slowbro, etc)
• Scizor
• Crucibelle (that is, if it doesn't interfere with baiting out fire types. While it doesn't deal with PS that well, it still has great recovery from regenerator and an SR resist. Just the kind of stuff we should hit hard)

Things I care less about threatening that have been mentioned include Landy-T, mostly because the best recovery he has is leftovers, and due to him not particularly 'enjoying' hazard damage. Also, I'm sort of neutral about poison types threatening us in general - I don't think it's a particularly bad thing to let them, but I don't think it's good to give things like mega-Venu more chances to poison our team with sludge bomb. If anything, we should probably look at threatening Poison Types on a case by case basis, rather than just saying 'Both our stabs are resisted by it so we should just let them do what they want'. This is especially the case with us liking Molluxes coming in on us, but disliking crucible doing the same. Probably, looking more towards some other method than 'hit poison types super effectively' is the best choice for picking and choosing our poison counters, like status, taunt, or some other fun utility based goodies.

Agreeing with the Tornadus-T point. In terms of baiting in Flying-types, this would mainly, if not entirely, apply to Thundurus otherwise, but building off of Korski's point, Prankster Thunder Wave would be a killer for CAP 22. I'm not sure if we want to give CAP22 ways to deal with paralysis or not, but if we wish to bait in Thundurus, we'll similarly draw in Torn-T.

As for fatmons, the general consensus is that we need to deal with those Fighting-neutral Steel-type ones, and we get stuff like Mega Sableye, Chansey, Cyclohm, and Ferrothorn on typing alone. I believe that leaves shit like Clefable, Gliscor, and Slowbro, all of which have very different checks from each other typing-wise. Still, while typing alone does seem to cover a good portion of the fatmons, there are ways to blanket check even more of them at once. I remain undecided whether this runs the risk of giving CAP22 too many options and deviating from the concept, though. Not sure if it's a big deal but may as well get some opinions on it.

On the topic of BD users and M-Scizor: at this stage of the process, it appears the best tactic will be to dissuade them from switching in on CAP 22. As it stands, they all wreck it in a one-on-one situation, but by keeping them off of the battlefield and thus turning them from counters to checks, we can keep CAP22 from having to hard switch or be sacrificed against them.

 

[Project_Mars]

We want this CAP to be able to not only cause switches, but we want to make sure that we have more momentum when PS'mon inevitably pivots out compared to the opponent. Making an effort to dissuade Belly Dancers and Bulky Regenerators from wanting to switch in would be in PS'mon's best interest. Good thing is that they do have a few things in common, so we do have a few different ways to deal with them.

Dealing with Scizor is a lot more of an issue. STAB Technician Bullet Punch is going to be brutal, while it can just U-Turn out after getting hit with a Parting Shot. But since its main method of scaring PS'mon out has +1 priority, there isn't really much that can be done about Scizor.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

I'll post this for now as I gather my thoughts on other things, but I have some stray thoughts I'd like to jot down:

• We should absolutely let Fire-types like Talonflame, Volcarona, Volcanion, Volkraken, Charizard, Victini, and Mollux switch in with confidence. They all hate -1 Atk/SpA and get shredded by hazards.
• We should find a way to mess with stallmons; right now we have very few options left for preventing CAP from being dead weight against like 90% of them (especially Skarmory and Clefable)
• Correct me if I'm wrong, but Belly Drum will still boost Caw and Azu to +6 even if they start at -1, not that it matters much as they will both sweep through this CAP.

I believe these are excellent key points. Ideally, the main opponents that will be switching into CAP22 are things weak to Stealth Rock. I'm just going to note right now that this CAP will have excellent synergy with a lot of steel types. They can cover all of the weaknesses of this typing: Poison, Steel, Psychic, Fairy, and Flying. The convenient thing is that because this CAP is fighting type, it can counter the possible surges of steel types that its debut might bring. Stall will easily be the worst enemy. Anything fast and offensive, such as Keldeo, would hate the notion of being hit by Parting Shot. I personally don't like the idea of it losing to bulky Pokemon, as that could cause a massive change towards bulk in the metagame.
1) Taking into account the expected offensive tendencies of a Fairy / Fighting type Pokemon, which Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to offensively threaten or force out? Which of these Pokemon should CAP 22 be able to switch into safely?
We definitely will be able to threaten Tomohawk, Colossoil, opposing CAP22s, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp, and Kyurem-Black. CAP 22 won't be safely switching into most of these, because they almost all have either a supereffective move, hit very hard with natural stats, or boost their attack commonly. Colossoil is the only named one not fitting into those categories. Due to the fact that CAP22 will be a fast attacker, its somewhat obvious that it will not have much bulk. Therefore it will be wanting to switch into more passive threats, such as Arghonaut, Mandibuzz, or CM Naviathan. So not meaning to poll jump or anything, but we will definitely want a way to deal with bulky Pokemon as that is what the typing is naturally best at breaking. Fighting type can easily take out common Pokemon like Chansey and Ferrothorn, while the Fairy type deals with the likes of Mega Sableye, Kyurem, and Tomohawk.
2) Which Pokemon should be able to safely switch into CAP 22's moves (with the exception of Parting Shot)? Is there a specific target group CAP 22 should aim to use Parting Shot against, and how can these Pokemon be drawn in?
Slowbro will murder us if we are physical. If we aren't physical, then Chansey will murder us. Any Fire type with a side Fighting resistance, and even some probably without, can easily destroy CAP22. Many Physically defensive Flying types, like Togekiss, Skarmory, Landorus-T, and Gliscor will be able to check CAP22 effectively as well. Poison types completely wall the STAB combo, which will cause this CAP to struggle against the likes of Mollux, Plasmanta, and Mega Venusaur. Finally, Bug types with a Fairy resistance counter it. The key Pokemon we should be using parting shot against are offensive Pokemon, usually Special Attackers. These include Mollux, Talonflame, both Mega Charizards, Togekiss, and Tornadus-T. These will be naturally drawn in since they resist CAP22's STAB moves.
3) Taking into account CAP 22's access to a fast Parting Shot, what would we like the primary methods of checking it to be?
I think the preferable choice is status, Taunt, and weardown. As CAP22 will be pivoting a lot, hazards likes Spikes and Sticky Web will trouble it quite a bit. Taunt will prevent CAP22 from switching out via Parting Shot, as well as preventing any other potential status moves from being used. Status of any sort will easily neuter the CAP, since Toxic causes intense weardown and Paralysis drastically cuts speed. If CAP22 is a physical attacker, it will also be crippled by Burn. Pokemon that often carry these moves, such as Necturna, Skarmory, Talonflame, Klefki, and MegaZard-X will all be extremely deadly.

 

[cbrevan]

I haven't posted in this thread yet so I'd like to get my thoughts down on various topics and bring up some points I'd like to see further discussion on.

First off, I agree with the notion that we should be aiming for Poison-types, namely Mollux, Plasmanta, Fidgit, and Mega Venusaur, to act as the hard counters/checks to CAP 22 for the most of the reason already mentioned. All of the before mentioned Pokemon sans Fidgit would dislike the power reduction Parting Shot gives them, as it makes them significantly easier to switch solid checks. This is important because Poison-type Pokemon can be checked reliably by some of the most common Pokemon in the metagame and as such the majority of teams already have some way to deal with them.

Secondly, I also agree that we should want Fire-types, particularly those that have a resistance to both of CAP 22's STAB options, to act as checks due to both their ability to threaten CAP 22 with their often high powered STAB moves. Additionally, Fire-types also do not appreciate the effects of Parting Shot for the same reason Poison-types dislike it, and on top of this they are easier to pressure overall due to their susceptibility entry hazards. Striving to have these two groups of Pokemon check CAP 22 would be pro-concept because of this.

Thirdly, I think the assessment that faster threats such as Scarfers and priority users will be able to threaten CAP 22 is fair. The number of Pokemon that both have access to priority and would be able to threaten CAP 22 off typing alone is limited to a handful of Pokemon, namely Talonflame, Bullet Punch users, and possibly Azumarill. These Pokemon rely on their priority to handle faster Pokemon and as such I believe we could put enough pressure on them with our teammates to handle them efficiently. Scarf Pokemon have an opportunity cost to them as they are more predictable, and most successful teams already have a way to handle the most common Scarfed users, due to their already significant usage. As a fast pivot user, it seems inevitably that faster Pokemon will threaten us.

One point that I'd like to see more discussion on is what our matchup against Fighting neutral Steel-types should be, namely Skarmory, Metagross, Jirachi, Cawmodore, and Scizor. Other Steel-types, such as Heatran and Bisharp, can threaten us with their STAB moves but we're able to threaten them back in return, making this a more manageable matchup. In contrast, the previously mentioned Steel-types could possibly act as checks to CAP 22 due to their bulk and offensive capabilities. Should we allow these Pokemon to act as checks to us, or should we find a way to threaten them?

Another point I'd like to see more discussion on is our matchup against more passive defensive Pokemon that do not rely as much on their offensive abilities. Should we be able to threaten bulky, more passive Pokemon such as Slowbro or do we want to rely on our teammates to exert pressure on them?

Overall I like the direction this thread is going and I think we could start to move away from solely typing based matchups and start to look at exactly what Pokemon we need to threaten in order to fulfill our concept best.

 

[snake]

Regarding Fighting neutral Steel-types, Metagross, Scizor, and Cawmodore should definitely be able to threaten us with STAB Bullet Punch. On the switch-in, we can hit with a STAB Fighting-type move and deal a decent amount of damage. Allowing CAP22 to pressure them in any other way would a) require a coverage move that would screw over another group of threats and b) remove Bullet Punch users from our list of threats.

I think CAP22 should have counterplay to passive Pokemon. If we use Parting Shot on one of them, it can hit the incoming teammate with a Thunder Wave, Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, Leech Seed, etc. Overall, a way to discourage these status moves is would be pro-concept.

I'd also like to talk about our match up against faster U-turn users, specifically Mega Crucibelle and Tornadus-T. Imagine the scenario of CAP22 against one of these Pokemon. If we aren't faster than them, they will probably OHKO us with STAB Gunk Shot and Hurricane, respectively. Sure, we might lose the switch advantage if they use U-turn; however I believe it is better that we let CAP22 escape with a faster Parting Shot than let CAP22 go down. Many slower Pokemon such as Rotom-W and Landorus-T utilize Volt Switch and U-turn as well and will gain the switch advantage if they use these moves after CAP22 uses Parting Shot, so I don't see any problems with being faster than Tornadus-T and Mega Crucibelle.