CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[Metal Bagon]

Just by scanning quickly it looks like these are the top four types (they may or may not be my prefered types).

Dragon, Eletric, Poison, Psychic, Rock.

I meantion normal but Rising Dusk seemed to be against at the ende of page one.

I think any of these types would make for a good CAP 2 and I do think that a 4x is needed so I would recommend pairing two of these 5 types together.

EDIT: It seems that Dragon/Poison or Electric/ Poison is prefered. I prefer Dragon/Poison personally but I think that poison should certainly be one of the types (I also stand by my earlier statement by saying I think this pokemon should be dual typed. So I do think one the above two are the best).

 

[Promo06]

Poison/Flying


Notably this pokemon is resistant to...

X4 Grass
X4 Fighting

While having some obvious weaknesses to rock and electric.

It would have many a use with its Sketch set such as a Shell Smash after switching into a Fighting/Grass pokemon. Or dual purpose hits switch in with a spore. At the same time it lacks a very powerful STAB move that can troll the entire metagame making it have a unique balance. Lets not forget that Stealth Rock damage it will take on the switch in.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

I'd like ice, as a typing, but I saw this and I love it;

This CAP gives us a lot of different directions in which to go, but if we're looking for a Pokemon that has a mix of an offensive typing and a defensive typing, I think we should look no further than Poison / Electric.

Now, some of the first reactions to this might be in the ballpark of "But DarkSlay, that's 4x weak to Ground! Whatever shall we do?". That's true, it's 4x weak to a Ground move. However, is that really a bad thing in this metagame? Heatran is probably our best example of what happens with 4x Ground weak Pokemon, and Heatran has even more weaknesses than Poison / Electric does. Yet, weaknesses allow for good team synergy, and something like a 4x weakness is one of the best ways to force your opponent to react. I agree with Dusk in saying that you shouldn't rely on Levitate getting through either. I think this CAP can definitely benefit from a limited number, but highly concentrated, weaknesses, much like Heatran can.

Now, onto why this is a good typing. I'll tackle the typing individually, starting with the offensive based Electric. Electric typing is a very good offensive STAB to have. It hits Water and Flying types super effectively, a relatively short but important list. Grass, Electric, and Dragon types resist it, while Ground is immune to it. That's also a relatively short list, with Grass (especially), Electric, and Dragon actually being covered with the other STAB move (if anyone actually cares to use it). It has a good amount of high powered attacks that can be Sketched, but not to the extent of V-Create or Sacred Fire. Examples would be Volt Tackle, Bolt Strike, Fusion Bolt, and others. It's generally a neutral offensive typing, striking down 13 of the 17 types for neutral or greater damage. At the same time, it doesn't boast a lot of type resistances to the STAB, making it a safe offensive option. Definitely a boon for this concept.

On the defensive side, we have Poison. It doesn't hit much offensively, so don't mind that. Defensively, though, it resists some pretty potent types, including Fighting, Grass, and Bug (as well as Poison). It is only weak to Ground and Psychic. A few key resistances and a few key weaknesses. Fighting type resistance is really nice especially, as is a nice U-Turn resistance to prevent scouting (coupled with a Volt Turn resistance when combined with Electric). Electric also adds Flying and Steel resistances, which is nice. Don't forget the immunity to Toxic and absorption of TSpikes. That's pretty neat if we want CAP to have an offensively bulky build.

I think this typing is perfect for this project. It provides us with critical resistances, critical weaknesses, and a good, semi-neutral coverage scheme for a good offensively bulky Pokemon.

I almost fully support Electric+Poison. There is 1 2x weakness and 1 4x weakness. The stabs mostly balance each other out. (poison might be nice here actually). It gives usage to the rare psychics in the game to try taking it down. I'm thinking of sketching magnet rise :P. But the above quote is my favorite so far.

 

[Birkal]

I don't really follow this argument. I mean, yes, many x2 weaknesses also would be a good idea, but I don't see what your first paragraph is really saying. My point was exactly what you said in the first paragraph, that no matter how good the counter may seem, if CAP2 has the right move, it can beat the counter. However, if CAP2 has a x4 weakness, then suddenly Pokemon X who is faster than CAP2 and knows an attack of that type can counter CAP2 regardless of what hidden move it has. While we like to focus on making CAP2 good, making sure it can be stopped is equally important.

Sorry, this will be my last post for a while, I promise. I am clogging up the conversation so much. Sorry ;__;

We both are on the same page in terms of wanting to make CAP2 stoppable, so that is good! I believe, however, that a Pokemon with lots of x2 weaknesses is considerably easier to counter than one x4 weakness. Because once you lose your Pokemon with that one move to destroy CAP2, the battle will become easily skewed in favor of CAP2's team. But a bunch of x2 weaknesses is more manageable. Think of Ghost / Grass typing for a moment. Instead of your stance, which requires a battler to attack with a Pokemon that is faster than CAP2 AND can abuse its sole weakness, my stance would allow that battler to threaten CAP2 with a much broader range of Pokemon, specifically those with Flying, Ice, Fire, Dark, Ghost, and Poison-type moves. I hope that clarifies my point a little bit more. I hope this discussion will lead to more discussion about which types are more ideal for CAP2! Thanks for reading.

 

[Immanency]

I like either Electric/Rock or Grass/Ghost.

Grass/Ghost provides a fighting immunity and doesn't give great STAB, so setup would be almost required, fulfilling exactly the purpose of what the goal seems to be. I'm thinking Lilligant on steroids.

Electric/Rock would be a more offensive typing, with at least one good STAB. I think that because of the undesirable 4X weakness and the fact that any bulky Ground type will do very well against it, this typing is easily justified. He also resists no forms of priority bar Extremespeed/Quick Attack, and is weak to Mach Punch and Aqua Jet.

I'm throwing my support behind Electric/Rock.

 

[Adamnsm1]

This is purely flavor here, but has anyone considered Dark? It's a pretty offensive type, so you could balance it with a defensive type like say the poison that seems to be pretty favored. It's just that "Sketchy" can also mean kind of shady, which fits dark perfectly. I also think the unpredictability thing fits perfectly with that type. Just a thought.

In terms of competitively, right now my first choice is Ghost/Normal. As people have said, its plethora of immunities give it ample ability to switch in and set up, which regardless of role is useful. A lot of people have said that most fighting types carry Dark moves, not Ghost moves, so it wont be able to use its fighting type immunity, however I disagree with that. First of all, banded or scarfed fighting types, such as Terrakion or Conkeldurr, will actualliy be set up bait for this pokemon. Also, on Sub sets to avoid status, this pokemon could come in on tons of walls, such as Blissey, Dusclops, mono-attack Snorlax, etc etc, and turn them into set up fodder. Also, although the fighting types tend to use Fighting/Dark for better SE coverage, ALL offensive ghost types use the Ghost/Fighting combo. Although in OU offensive ghosts are pretty rare with the exception of Gengar, keep in mind that in the CAP metagame Revenankh uses that combo for both coverage and STAB. On the offensive front, a lot of people have said that it would have to run ghost/fire coverage, because if it ran the ghost/fighting coverage it would get walled by itself. However (I hope this isn't poll hopping), you have to keep in mind its other moovepool. Obviously, we probably wouldn't give it in its base movepool access to a strong ghost/fighting combo, but we could maybe give it a Dark move (which as mentioned earlier fits the flavor) to hit itself with. I really think this typing works defensively, with 3 immunities, 2 resists, and only 1 weakness, and offensively, with ghost type being an incredible neutral coverage type.

I really don't like Grass as a type for CAP2. It could give us some more canon options in its movepool, but other than that i don't really see the use, particularly with Ferrothorn being one of the most used pokemon in OU. If you ever wanted to use this pokemon in a defensive role, or as a spikes/SR user, or as a seeder, status abuser, or as even a slow boosting tank, Ferrothorn can usually do all those jobs better, and take advantage of its grass typing better. Furthermore, the presence of Ferrothorn means the metagame is hyper-prepared for a grass type. HP fire is now seen on random pokes, just to stop Ferro from walling them. Meanwhile, grass can get good SE coverage, but it generally has pretty poor neutral coverage, which will limit a sweep. Overall i just don't think grass is the way to go with this CAP.

 

[Bughouse]

I'd like to propose Normal/Ghost because it is an interesting type combination in that it has immunities that help it to switch in, but it also has a bad pair of STABs which will force CAP2 to rely on its Sketch move for offensive coverage.

I had also proposed this combo hypothetically on IRC before Sketch was even selected. The combination of STABs leaves the CAP unable to damage Steel types prevalent in the metagame, forcing the CAP to sketch Sacred Fire, Aura Sphere, etc (depending on what it wants to beat and what stats we give it.)

Furthermore, the CAP is immune to both of its own STABs meaning that in a standoff between two CAP2, a supportive one comes out ahead, getting a chance to lay hazards, set screens, use a status move, etc while the other does minuscule damage with the coverage move, which will almost assuredly never be Dark.

This would encourage users to pursue many different strategies to both use CAP2 and beat CAP2 creatively.

I fully support Normal/Ghost

I am glad to see another typing discussed on IRC is getting attention too. DarkSlay's proposed Poison/Electric is another fantastic typing that I would support. (Especially if Levitate is a potential ability!)

 

[TerrickTerran]

Some great arguements from various sides. Personally, I like Rock/Electric as the offense seems to be a key role without being overpowered. Grass/Ghost is a close second as I think that would be a fun type as well.

 

[Promo06]

Poison-Electic.

I didn't even think about this until reading Dark Slay's post.

Give it an ability like Magnet Pull or Levitate and all of sudden the fun starts.

From there on out we can have some Lead moves, Power moves, and Setup moves in its movepool movepool to not only take advantage of its diversity in types, but if the stat makers bless it with high speed it could be a real fun and diverse pokemon. We could toss in a Dragon Dance or a Quiver Dance in its Base/Egg movepool so it doesn't need to waste Sketch on that Shell Smash that will also cripple the bulkiness we are giving this pokemon. A STAB Thunderbolt would be a very fun move to have at the same time while using Sketch on Ice Beam, it gives perfect coverage to nearly all types

 

[jake]

I really, really favor Grass/Ghost and I think Birkal covered what I wanted to say very well with his post. There's a pretty long list of Pokemon that resist its STABs, meaning that if CAP2 were to be the designated sweeper for its team it would have to rely on its Sketch move for coverage. I think it's the typing that will open the most possibilities up for CAP2's Sketch move, definitely. I think that Poison/Electric would work as well, though not as well as Grass/Ghost.

 

[ungulateman]

I personally like Electric/Poison. It's nice to have a CAP which isn't obsessed about resisting Stealth Rock, or avoiding large weaknesses. It has a great offensive STAB (Volt Tackle, Thunderbolt, Zekrom's exclusive moves), as well as a few handy resistances and the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes.

It'd also be able to freely switch in on Toxic users, giving it some anti-stall capabilities.

 

[Ralts]

Electric/Poison probably deems the most interesting to me. Not only is it currently unexplored, but it absorbs toxic spikes and has plentiful access to powerful STAB moves (Thunder, Volt Switch, Fusion Bolt). If paired with Levitate, this CAP would have tons of resistances, only being weakened by Psychic-type moves.

 

[Solstice]

There's been a lot of discussion on Poison-Electric, but it still hasnt convinced me that it would be better than Poison-Dragon. I feel like having Electric over Dragon is the wrong choice for a few reasons. People have been saying that CAP 2 having a 4x weakness is possibly a good thing, which I don't necessarily disagree with, I see the benefits very well. However I feel like Electric doesn't provide enough resistances to be as viable defensively as Dragon. The resistances of Dragon and Poison don't overlap, and neither do the weaknesses, it makes for a very well balanced typing that has more options. I feel like the weakness Electric brings to the table would force CAP 2 to fill a more offensive role most of the time. Some walls can manage with a 4x weakness, but bulky offense I don't see being able to accomplish this well. Heatran has been brought up because it's fairly bulky and still serves an offensive role, however it's stats are better prepared for it. I also feel like defensively this would just bring in a lot of Balloon users Shell Smashing all over the place. It seems to be that Electric limits our capability to explore the concept.

Dragon has more neutral offense coverage, and provides a very clear example of what will counter and how Sketch will have to be used to find answers to this. Steels will be an obvious problem, which still applies for Poison-Electric but not as concretely as Dragon. Overall I'm not adamantly opposed to Poison-Electric, there are a lot of things I like about it, I just feel like we have a better chance of learning something with Dragon.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Electric/Poison is a rather good combination on paper. Especially for this concept. The defensive capabilities should take precedence over offensive capabilities, but since Electric is always a nice type to have a STAB bonus on, it doesn't cut it out completely, which helps us focus on bulky offense more.

As for benefits, there's little weaknesses, meaning you can safely juggle your support options with your attacking ones. You also don't have two crazy STAB moves together plus Sketch for the perfect coverage.

I won't go into movepools of course, but I support dual typings consisting of one good offensive type and one less impressive. I also like the suggestions of types like Normal and Steel. I'm personally pushing for an Electric base and Poison just goes so well with it.

*Edit*

Went back several pages in the forum...

Elevator's argument for Electric/Poison during CAP8 of last gen...

Poison. If you've been on the server you've probably heard me lobbying for Elec/Poison and here's why:

- Electric/Poison has good resistances: Steel, Fighting, and Flying resistances are really cool to me and I wanted them on this CaP badly. On top of that you have an Electric resistance and a Bug resistance (as well as a Grass and Poison resist). And if you've noticed, most of these types (bar Steel), are not paired offensiely with types that Electric/Poison is weak to.

- Neutrality to Stealth Rock: I would have pushed for Electric/Bug or Electric/Flying, but I decided that a neutrality to Stealth Rock and less weaknesses made Electric/Poison a much better typing defensively, even though the above two weren't 4x Ground weak and still resisted Fighting.

- Not Pursuit-weak: Uggh I hate Pursuit-weak defensive pokemon. I would have liked Electric/Ghost or Electric/Psychic (as they also had excellent resistances), but they were Pursuit weak and overall that made me want Electric/Poison more.

- Look past the 4x Ground weakness! You shouldn't be fighting any pokemon with Ground moves anyways. We picked an Electric-type pokemon, so unless we make it insanely bulky it won't be able to withstand more than one Earthquake regardless. Also, keep in mind a lot of the types that Electric/Poison has resistances to rarely (if ever) pack Ground type attacks. The only type that does is Steel (because Bronzong and Metagross and the rare Forretress run Earthquake). Fighting types generally don't because it's bad coverage. Flying types don't because they generally don't have access to EQ. Heracross, Syclant, Yanmega, and Scizor (the only commonish Bug pokemon) don't run EQ. It won't be an issue. Electric/Poison-mon will still have plenty of pokemon to wall.

Of course, the Psychic weakness is also pretty irrelevant since again, most of the types that Electric/Poison resists don't pack Psychic-type attacks either (except the rare Zen Headbutt Jirachi and Metagross).


Electric/Poison is an excellent defensive typing, and if you want a defensive ability/pokemon then it's a fine choice to pick for CaP8!

Remember, this was for CAP8, which was a different concept (so you don't have to take the quote into consideration, it's just an extra thought). What I just wanted to bring back was the argument on how the Ground weakness isn't bad (for anyone worried about it).

 

[ssbbm]

Guys, I don't think we should do Dragon typing.

Why? Because Dragon STAB is such a potent combination when you have such a move as Shell Smash. Every(?) Dragon has Outrage, and at +2/+2, you 2HKO the metagame with Outrage + HP Fire assuming 100 Base Attack and an LO.

For reference, you do 39.5% - 46.7% to Physically Skarmory at +2. That's insane; Skarmory is the epitome of a Dragon Wall, yet it still gets 2HKOed with barely any residual damage. Additionally, by running HP Fire with NO SpAtk EVs and assuming merely a base 80 Special Attack, you OHKO the same Skarmory with SR damage.

These are all the Pokemon that are guaranteed to avoid a 2HKO assuming only +2/+2, 100 Base Attack, LO, and Outrage.

Forretress (Physically Defensive)	
Skarmory (Physically Defensive)	
Jirachi (Wish + Calm Mind)	
Ferrothorn (Standard)

So let's assume only 70 Base Attack, LO, and Outrage. What's the chance of a 70 Base Attack Pokemon sweeping? It turns out to be really high with Dragon STAB. These are the Pokemon that don't get 2HKOed without any hazards.

Forretress (Physically Defensive)	
Skarmory (Physically Defensive)	
Jirachi (Wish + Calm Mind)	
Ferrothorn (Standard)
Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)
Bronzong (Trick Room Support)
Forretress (Specially Defensive)
Metagross (Choice Band)
Skarmory (Specially Defensive)	
Ferrothorn (Choice Band)	
Bronzong (Dual Screens)	
Magnezone (Dual Screen)

That's 8 individual Pokemon that can stop you from sweeping at +2/+2. And the funny thing is, you're at 70 Base Attack with no coverage moves. Let's try running HP Fire with 70 Base SpAtk and no Special Attack EVs to see what isn't 2HKOed.

Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)
Metagross (Stealth Rock) [Occa Berry]

lol. You're blocked by 2 Pokemon, one of which is a rarely common set.

It's funny; even with only 60 Attack and 60 SpAtk, you still 2HKO the whole metagame at +2/+2 with HP Fire and Outrage, barring the following Pokemon:

Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)
Metagross (Stealth Rock) [Occa Berry]
Bronzong (Tank)
Heatran (Specially Defensive)
Jirachi (Specially Defensive)
Heatran (TormenTran)
Jirachi (Wish + Calm Mind)

That's 5 Pokemon.

I really don't think it's possible to make a non-broken Dragon with Shell Smash.

Fun Fact: the maximum Base Attack possible so that there is at least one Pokemon that can safely switch in (assuming 60 Base SpAtk) is 81; at 82 Base Attack, every Pokemon gets 2HKOed after SR damage (accounting for leftovers); Bronzong, your safest switch-in, has a tiny chance of being 2HKOed by +2 Outrage.

We could just deny it Outrage if we went that route, then.

Easy.

I'd like to say that that's true, but even with Dragon Claw and HP Fire, an +2/+2 80 Base Attack /80 Base Special Attack CAP 2 @ LO 2HKOes the whole metagame besides Quagsire, Cresselia, and Heatran with SR up.

 

[LouisCyphre]

We could just deny it Outrage if we went that route, then.

Easy.

altaria is the only dragon not to learn outrage naturally in Gen V. All other Dragons can learn it without the Pokétransfer.

 

[Imanalt]

Most people have been focusing on good neutral coverage and few weaknesses etc. However, I think this is exactly the wrong way to go. If we were to give it a stab combo that hit many things hard but had at least one glaring weakness, it encourages a coverage move to be sketched.

Similarly, a defensive typing with many weaknesses (especially to priority) and many resistances gives this 'mon plenty of opportunities to switch in, while still letting more pokemon counter it, by outrunning and hitting it with a SE move. This also evens out the scales against just default sketching shell smash or other setup moves.

Keeping this in mind, I would like to suggest
Fighting/Bug
Sporting 3 weaknesses, one a 4x weakness, it is clearly a typing that can easily be taken down. However, it also has 5 resistances allowing it to switch in on many things. Offensively, its stabs are resisted by a myriad of pokemon, including fluid and ghost types, making the use of sketch as a coverage move quite possible.

Tomorrow when I'm on my computer instead of my phone I will look more closely at other possibilities.

 

[zyrefredric]

Having access to any of the awesome stat boosting moves this generation brought through the Sketch slot gives immediate potential to a sweeping role. If we give CAP2 potent offensive STABs, then that only adds more encouragement for offensive sets. If I recall correctly, we want this Pokemon to have equally viable options as much as possible. Thus, it would be in the concept's best interests that we choose a not-too-good offensive typing. Why? If it uses Sketch for Quiver Dance or Shell Smash, he'd be stuck with using not too effective STABs and other coverage moves learned naturally. If it opts to Sketch a very powerful attack such as V-Create or Draco Meteor, he'd not be able to boost up for a sweep as effectively. Knowing that we're taking a Bulky Offense focus, it would have decent offensive stats, so offensive sets still have credit, but the typing should put enough limitations so that offensive sets don't just run rampant.

That is why I am proposing Steel/Poison as the type for our CAP. The STABs alone only give super-effective coverage against Grass, Ice and Rock, and the STABs have characteristically low base power moves. A boosting set would have to rely primarily on TMs and learned attack moves. Incidentally, its a very effective defensive typing, with a multitude of resistances, immunity to Poison, a 2x weakness to Fire, and a 4x weakness to Ground (which, as many have already argued, may not be too much of a problem). The Bulky Offense focus may mean that it would also have decent defensive stats, and this coupled with the typing gives needed potential for defensive and supportive skills, allowing more diverse options for Sketch.

(btw, if my proposed typing neuters the offensive capabilities of the CAP too much, then I'd support pairing Poison with a more effective offensive STAB. Electric/Poison and Flying/Poison are good combinations as well. However, I'd agree with ssbbn's post that Dragon may be too much, so I'd say NO for Dragon/Poison.

 

[Spork]

I don't think you understand that Quiver Dance, Tail Glow etc. become completely unusable when your STABs are Poison and Steel. It would never use them. We want a certain balance but we still need a pokemon that's offensive, since that's one of the few things that's been set so far.

I'm pleased that there's growing support for Electric - Electric is a great typing for the CAP, with great neutral offenses and defenses and a primary STAB that is synergetic with many of the powerful coverage moves we can Sketch. It could use support, boosting, attacking and even possibly defensive moves effectively. I would be fully on board with a lot of the Electric-types posted so far if they made the slate.

Darkslay's proposal is pretty great in this respect, with Poison doing very little to support Electric offensively (hitting Grass-types is nice, but most sets would likes involve something like HP Ice or V-Create anyway, and the CAP's Electric STAB just offers free offensive reign) and a lot defensively (encouraging the use of more support or defensive sets). Electric/Poison is a great typing for the CAP, and coincidentially, a very unique and interesting typing.

Deck Knight's suggestion of Rock/Electric is very interesting. I like how, on boosting sets, you're often limited to one STAB depending on the spectral bias of the boost: Rock special is weak, with Power Gem, or unreliable, with Weather Ball, whilst physical Electric has low base power or nasty recoil. This prevents the awesome SE coverage of its STAB from being too overpowered, whilst Sketch opens up various STAB options form all-out attacking sets (Volt Tackle). The SpD from Sandstorm is also pertty great if we decide to go more defensive.

@ the dragon problem: really, that's something we can deal with when we get to movepool and stats. I was never suggesting Outrage personally, but the basic typing of Dragon really allows a lot of creativity with the moveset. I don't think 2HKO'ing most of the metagame after a Shell Smash is a particularly bad thing, as that takes three whole turns, and you aren't going to worry much about it once you know its set, especially with its lowered defenses. I realise the unpredictability of CAP2 is going to increase the power of its boosting sets, but that's something we need to limit with stats. Personally I would support Electric, Ghost or Normal over Dragon, however, because it's a lot more difficult to break the metagame with these types, though all have good neutral coverage.

 

[Tals]

even with Dragon Claw and HP Fire, an +2/+2 80 Base Attack /80 Base Special Attack CAP 2 @ LO 2HKOes the whole metagame besides Quagsire, Cresselia, and Heatran with SR up.

If Dragon Claw on a Dragon will be an issue, how would say... a Thunderbolt/Sludge Bomb coverage combo on an Electric/Poison type be any less scary?

Not disputing your math, because it's solid, but it sounds like an argument that could work against a lot of types.

 

[LouisCyphre]

I'd like to make an addendum to my case for Dark/Poison by calling to mind its relatively weak, but diverse STAB moves, especially on the Dark side (cookies).

Dark STAB
Physical: Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Foul Play, Night Slash, Crunch
Special: Dark Pulse, Night Daze (likely Sketched)

Poison STAB
Physical: Gunk Shot, Poison Jab, Cross Poison
Special: Acid Spray, Sludge Wave, Venoshock, Clear Smog

Some of these are very interesting moves - Acid Spray, Foul Play, Pursuit, and Sucker Punch in particular open up a lot of interesting options for the Sketch slot, assuming they appear in CAP2's standard movepool.

I'll probably make more analyses later, of both Dark/Poison and of other proposed types, but for now this is pertaining to purely the STABs of the proposed typing herein.

 

[ungulateman]

If Dragon Claw on a Dragon will be an issue, how would say... a Thunderbolt/Sludge Bomb coverage combo on an Electric/Poison type be any less scary?

Not disputing your math, because it's solid, but it sounds like an argument that could work against a lot of types.

Walled to hell and back by Ferrothorn and Magnezone. The former can Gyro Ball your face off (assuming decent Speed, which it will probably have) and the latter has the rare HP [Ground] (don't laugh, it's actually pretty useful).

Also, Blissey and Snorlax wall any special sets.

Plus Outrage is a significantly stronger move than Thunderbolt anyway.

 

[Tals]

Walled to hell and back by Ferrothorn and Magnezone. The former can Gyro Ball your face off (assuming decent Speed, which it will probably have) and the latter has the rare HP [Ground] (don't laugh, it's actually pretty useful).

Also, Blissey and Snorlax wall any special sets.

Plus Outrage is a significantly stronger move than Thunderbolt anyway.

Sounds like Dragon can be solved by using Dragon Breath as the best STAB it learns on it's own then?

No doubt Outrage is vastly stronger than Thunderbolt, I'm firmly against it getting Outrage as an initiate move though.

Just fuelling the discussion, not trying to poll jump to movesets just yet, I just want to see if there are viable solutions to this problem. I think Dragon and Electric dual typed with Poison both make interesting options.

It's important to remember that while Electric/Poison gives it a 4x ground weakness, Dragon/Poison still has a 2x ground weakness and brings along the effective ice and dragon weaknesses too, broadening the amount of ways you can smack it down if you can weather a single attack from it.

 

[Lord_a-Jeroth]

I'm just going to say that I'm really afraid of giving this thing Dragon typing. While its true that the best dragon moves have serious drawbacks, that doesn't stop Draco or Outrage from being really scary. Come in on something you threaten and Shell Smash on the switch. Now you have either your scary Draco Meteor which is going to hit really hard even through a resistance or a safer coverage move, read Sacred Fire, to scout and hope for some burn hax. Or, you could just Spore their best check to CAP2 and work from there.

That being said, I do like both Poison/Electric and Grass/Electric. As has been mentioned, the big Ground weakness that P/E has can be turned to your advantage a la Heatran. It makes CAP2 a great lure, and sleeping your opponents best check with Spore is always nice, though that does force you to forgo a sketched boosting move. Or you can use the opportunity to predict and double switch and keep momentum on your side. G/E allows for pretty good neutral coverage, and assuming we don't give it Seed Flare outright, doesn't give it two great ones + Sketch + Hidden Power/Other coverage move. Plus, it has some useful resistances that make setting up easier. Another one I like, though not as much as these two is Grass/Ghost.

 

[Bughouse]

You can claim we could just not give the Dragon CAP Outrage, but it just doesn't sit right. Movepools for every CAP have been guided by Type-Move requirements.

For a fully evolved Dragon (in Gen 4), that entailed:
Aerial Ace, Draco Meteor, Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse, Earthquake, Mud-Slap, Outrage, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Swift.

Could we deny the CAP the more powerful moves? Certainly. Would it fit flavor-wise? Not at all, really.


Also: to those who maybe aren't persuaded by Electric/Poison:
Without Levitate, CAP2 acts as an amazing lure. But even better, should we choose to give CAP2 Levitiate, its physical type defense becomes even BETTER than Skarmory's and its overal type defense becomes better than Sableye/Spiritomb's. Not too shabby, eh? BULKY offense is right.