CAP 13 CAP 2 - Concept Assessment

[Prankster]

I think the main stat to worry about is speed. If a pokemon is able to learn any ONE move, it should be able to surprise the opponent with that move quick and fast.

I also agree that its movepool outside of sketch itself should be small. Otherwise, it could increase the power of duel screens hyper offense or even (Gasp) the dreaded baton pass teams. We do not want a carbon copy of smashpass smeargle. However, its main roll, I believe should be support. If it has too strong offenses, that one move could easily be something like sacred fire/ V-create could make it less fun. Two moves that I would want to see in this pokemons movepool are substitute and rapid spin, to get a heads start. Im seeing this pokemon to be something like gengar, capable of running an offensive set, but is used more as an annoyer set with substitute.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm currently thinking of three "tracks" for how I can envision a successful product.

Froslass track:

A swift Pokemon with more offense than defense, with an eye towards getting the most out of fast status and having Shell Smash slightly mitigated by already being fast enough to be hit on the usage turn. This one fits more firmly into an offense role than a bulky offense role, but it would generally be the most threatening sweeper of the three, and would operate best with screen or Memento support from another Pokemon.

Serperior track:

This is a fast Pokemon, but it has stronger defenses and weaker attacking stats, doing much the same as a Froslass track in several rolls, but not being nearly as effective a sweeper, and more often than not opting for slower stat-up moves to capitalize on its better defenses. Despite Serperior being technically faster than Froslass, this track would actually tend to a swift, but lower level of speed.

Bronzong track:

This is a Pokemon at the other end of the speed extreme. It is very slow, but makes up for it with much more solid defenses. In this case, the Pokemon can utilize immunities or resistances and play more of a slow game or use attacks with more niche effects. While this would be the most prone to Taunt and probably take much more damage overall, it seems like a legitimate way to go bulky offense without opening up Shell Smash to being a default move.

 

[LouisCyphre]

At first glance, I favor the Serperior spread. Fast, with acceptable offenses for a defensive mon (e.g. Claydol) and solid enough defenses for two hits or so.

I can see that spread supporting all of the discussed roles so far: "hyper" boosting offense (shell smash/tail glow), accumulation boosting offense (quiver dance/coil), support (spore/tailwind), and so on. Choice might be the only invalidated "paradigm" for that spread.

I'll think on it and see if I can fathom something that functions under more roles.

 

[ungulateman]

I'd say the "Serperior track" would probably work out the best. We should be looking at a highly versatile Pokemon with somewhat low offensive ability. Otherwise it'll automatically be a Shell Smash sweeper and the whole idea of it being versatile goes out the window when everyone makes it into a sweeper with the same move.

It'll need a decent support movepool otherwise as well, along with a reasonable degree of bulk.

 

[jessifer]

Supporting Serperior track too. It seems to be the most balanced and diverse one.

 

[Spork]

I'd probably argue for a fourth 'track' along the lines of Mesprit or Kingdra - decent stats allow it to choose between bulk or offenses with EV investment, whilst middling speed encourages defensive or support options but can take advantage of boosting moves. Other than that I'd say the Frosslass 'track' is a pretty good model.

Also, since most of the examples so far are offensively mixed, do you think an offensive mix is important, or is that coincidential to the 'tracks' and irrelevant? I think there's a leaning towards mixed, and zarator's post earlier seemed to strongly support it; it would support the theme of versatility and unpredictability, certainly.

 

[ryik7]

Without a responce that instigate tl;drs, I'd say Serperior track is the best for reasons already mentioned, though of course Serperior should be able to attack, if not for any other reason than because it has the moves to do it and because it isn't suspected of doing so

 

[mewtwo15026]

1. Should CAP 2 be primarily offensive or defensive or supporting?

It seems like the Serperior spread would work. The Speed may not need to be THAT high -- CAP2 should be able to take a hit or two and retaliate -- but the rest of Serp's stats seem rather lacking. CAP2 ought to be quick and threatening while maintaining bulk, and a Serperioresque spread would suit it well. In addition, the offensive and defensive spreads should be mixed for maximum versatility. Move-based arguments could be made on either side of the attacking "spectrum" (I'm leaning slightly physical, myself), but CAP2 should be able to threaten from both sides.

To answer the question: no, it should not be primarily offensive or defensive or supporting; it should have some capability to do it all.

--- --- --- ---
2. How do you balance a single of any move in the game on a Pokemon?

All I can think of is "no hyper stat boosts" so CAP2 would have to choose between Choiced uber moves (Psystrike, Sacred Fire) or boosting unexciting ones. No matter the model, someone's going to try Shell Smash or SporePlot or something on this, and we all know it. We might as well make a downside to that. Barring boosts, CAP2 should have an already versatile movepool so that it can go with anything, but it should lack the offenses to do both at a time. This keeps it from being Rayquaza.

In terms of defense, CAP2 should have the stats to go bulky but lack the stats to go bulky offense. With any move available to it, CAP2 could potentially be a cleaner almost as frightening as Deoxys. Boosting tanks aren't a bad idea, either; CAP2 could run Cro sets or fat priority sets like Conkeldurr or Empoleon. Those would be powerful, but not unmanageable.

If this is any faster than Smeargle AND gets even a mediocre support Level-Up set, it would easily outclass it in terms of support capabilities. Support sets aren't threatening in and of themselves, but they sure as hell can change a battle. The issue becomes whether or not the penultimate support movepool can give CAP2 a niche over established supporters like Ferrothorn, Forretress, or Deoxys-S.

--- --- --- ---
3. What can Smeargle teach us about Sketch that will be relevant to creating CAP 2?

Moves don't make the 'mon; you need stats to succeed, too. Since Smeargle has no stats, the capabilities of Sketch have been largely unexplored. Who knows if even a single Sketch slot could turn an otherwise unassuming 'mon into an offensive nightmare or a defensive impasse? That's what we'll have to find out with CAP 2.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Got access to a computer finally, so I'm coming in this late. From what has been developed in the thread so far, I personally believe the Pokemon should be either fast or at a reasonable speed. It's entire spread should have a reasonably balanced preference, which I feel the Serperior track fills up the best. A Pokemon with offensive stats and a usable speed instantly leans to just a sweeping role (which I prefer, as a fan of offense) with a couple moves to set it up, but with a slightly more defensive spread, you should be more inclined to experiment with different combinations and playstyles within the standard offense/defense scheme. Either that, or be even more balanced (Ex: Kingdra).

 

[KokoaKiwi]

100% Agreed on the Serperior Track.

 

[Stratos]

yes, serperior sounds like the best option, and what i believe we were all grasping at with Froslass but is better covered by that.

 

[jas61292]

Haha, I've been using Serperior as an example since my first post. I agree completely with that style.

 

[Bork]

Bronzong track:

This is a Pokemon at the other end of the speed extreme. It is very slow, but makes up for it with much more solid defenses. In this case, the Pokemon can utilize immunities or resistances and play more of a slow game or use attacks with more niche effects. While this would be the most prone to Taunt and probably take much more damage overall, it seems like a legitimate way to go bulky offense without opening up Shell Smash to being a default move.

I really like this mold... If we look at Bronzong in particular, its no Garchomp attacking wise, but if by some terrible accident/Gamefreak Troll, Bronzong got Shell Smash, it could theoretically abuse it quite well, but still be able to do its current role (on a different set obviously). With the Froslass track, CAP2 would be less effective with defensive/support roles. Froslass has spikes and even ghost typing to prevent spinners, but still can't make a very large dent in OU. Now, CAP2 probably won't be cursed with Ice typing, but I like Bronzong's overall utility as opposed to Froslass's specialization.

 

[Birkal]

While toying with a Serperior-style CAP2, we should consider the implications as well. Serperior sits comfortably as the 93rd top BST Pokemon (including Ubers), which beats out many threats already seen in OU, including Espeon, Scrafty, Rotom-W, Cloyster, Lucario, Tentacruel... The list goes on.

Now, the thing that holds Serperior back is its terrible movepool. By giving its stats and build to a Pokemon that can learn ANY move, we are dealing with some serious firepower. Plus, a base 110+ Speed makes it a dangerous threat after one Shell Smash that cannot be outspeed by conventional means like Scarf Latios or Scarf Terrakion. It could even run Tail Glow or Gear Shift while still maintaining its very good defenses to sweep with a superior 110+ Speed. We would be dealing with something very dangerous with a Serperior set, please consider this. Again, if we went with Serperior, I'd argue that we should run considerably less speed and a bit more bulk. While Serperior may seem like a happy marriage of Scarfty and Froslass, please do not think of it that way. By making those compromises, we'd be greatly limiting the movepool and useful typing / ability that we could be handing to this Pokemon; in conclusion, please don't choose Serperior blindly. I like the idea, but it could go terribly wrong if we make its stats too favorable.

 

[LouisCyphre]

Think proportions, not exact numbers.

More speed than defenses, and more defenses than offenses, in roughly Serperior-esque proportions. Nothing more.

 

[Birkal]

The problem with more speed is that any boosting move with +2 Speed and about 100 Base Speed stat is going to be a huge threat since Scarfers can't outspeed it. I guess I don't see why we are so focused on a Speed stat. What do we want to Taunt, Stealth Rock Celebi? Taunt Mew? The almost non-existent Deoxys-D? Doubt it; we only need to outspeed defensive threats like Blissey, Ferrothorn, and possibly Heatran. I'll reiterate, Pokemon like Rotom-W and Scrafty don't need oodles and noodles of speed to function; their access to wonderful base power attacks and successful secondary moves (Will-O-Wisp and Bulk Up specifically) make them threatening enough. I guess I don't see how that much speed is really necessary. I would argue that it will actually harm the number of sets it could run.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'd probably argue for a fourth 'track' along the lines of Mesprit or Kingdra - decent stats allow it to choose between bulk or offenses with EV investment, whilst middling speed encourages defensive or support options but can take advantage of boosting moves. Other than that I'd say the Frosslass 'track' is a pretty good model.

Also, since most of the examples so far are offensively mixed, do you think an offensive mix is important, or is that coincidential to the 'tracks' and irrelevant? I think there's a leaning towards mixed, and zarator's post earlier seemed to strongly support it; it would support the theme of versatility and unpredictability, certainly.

Offensive Mix is important to make each usage of Sketch a threat unto itself. It could be argued that Scrafty or Ferrothorn would be better examples because Tail Glow gives +3 SpA, meaning it will be much more threatening with TG than SS, but I tend to believe keeping a mixed orientation helps balance the CAP out.

In any case, Kingdra/Mesprit are really too much jacks-of-all trades for Sketch to work. We want a Pokemon that can stretch out the advantages of Sketch, and middling stats all around don't help much. Look at Mew, which has a +2 Booster in every stat and a movepool to envy, and 100 stats in everything, yet it sits in UU. Granted much of that comes down to type and ability, but the logic remains the same - our CAP must be able to influence top threats, which means it can either check them through revenge with a higher speed, or have enough defense to switch into them.

Think proportions, not exact numbers.

More speed than defenses, and more defenses than offenses, in roughly Serperior-esque proportions. Nothing more.

Yes, I was going for proportions more than a carbon copy of stats. Frosslass track for example would have the most speed and higher offenses than defenses, Serperior track would have a high speed and closer tracking defenses that exceed its offenses, and Bronzong track would largely forsake speed for a lot of bulk and serviceable offensive stats.

 

[Mr.Pooh31]

I dont think we should think of this CAP as having to go down a "track"
While it does give it more direction, I think it is really limiting what this poke can do.
Everyone is talking about its moveset all ready when we dont know what moves it will get.
If it gets Dragon Dance, Swords Dance or other boosting moves, wouldnt you agree that shell smash isnt always going to be the Sketch move.
There are plenty of good moves out there. V Create, Draco Meteor, Spore are some of the most powerful moves in the game.
Picking a "track" for this CAP would greatly limit the capabilities of it. Why not just have it be an all around thing like Mew? It could just be a balanced poke with a limited movepool(besides sketch) that could be either a glue offensive pokemon or a glue defensive pokemon.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[ryik7]

Think proportions, not exact numbers.

More speed than defenses, and more defenses than offenses, in roughly Serperior-esque proportions. Nothing more.

Exactly, we aren't picking out the actual stats, nor anything else like that.

So once again:

Offense bad but is usable in conjunction with moves. To compare, Serperior with Perverse leaf storm (essentially a leaf storm then 2 nasty plots in one turn) isn't broken, though the fact that this is largely because of it's bad movepool should be taken into account.

Defense good so it can take a hit, but not so good that it can wall (~stallers will have to stop the opponent instead of taking all of the hits) or shrug off shell smash defense drops like nothing.

Speed good enough to pull off several things that "any move" brings to the table

Also, I would argue that mixed stats for both offense and defense allow for the most versatility, since unpredictability alone is what helps it sweeps and do its support job

@mr. Pooh: so we can balance it~make sure its not broken. 90/90/90/90/90/90 or 80/80/80/80/80/80 may "break" it's offensive capabilities, may make it too slow to do what we want it to do, etc. I'm sorry, I'm not good at translating stats to offensive presence, etc., but yeah, thats my point

 

[Stratos]

Mr. Pooh, Mew's "all around" nature is exactly what limits it. In this meta, you cannot afford to be the jack of all trades but the master of none; if you aren't the best at a certain niche you'll be kicked to the curb quicker than you can say "Underused."

 

[Adamnsm1]

I think Serperiors proportions are too extreme. In ordered to give it useable offenses and decent bulk, the speed would have to be insane. Actually, i think lowering Serperiors offenses at all would be bad for the CAP, and lowering the defenses by a sizeable margin would also not work well. This leaves us with roughly around Serperiors exact speed, which I think is way too high. After a shell smash or a gear shift this pokemon would be essentially impossible to revenge without priority. With an offensive set that potent, it would probably severely limit the application of other sets. I do, however, think that the defenses should be higher than the offenses, and don't have a problem with the speed being GENERALLY higher than the defenses, although not to this extreme.

 

[LouisCyphre]

It's not hard to lower it without raising another stat.

Honestly, we shouldn't be considering exact numbers - we want to decide what it's capable of, when it can theoretically be capable of anything.

 

[Aldaron]

Serperior track makes most sense to me.

Speed + Bulk will always benefit something with sketch; Smeargle would kill for some bulk :P

 

[Mr.Pooh31]

@ryik17
I was thinking along those lines. Something that could really do anything without being broken and that can fit many playstyles.
@pwnemon
In contrast, I think something like a Mew with access to Spore, Shell Smash, V Create, Draco Metoer can actually do VERY well in this meta. I think some of you guys are forgetting it gets moves outside of Sketch. A pokemon that could either help a sweep, eliminate a certain threat, end a sweep, sweep itself or break stall wouldnt be broken because it couldnt do all of them at once. It could be the master of ONE thing at a time, not a jack of everything at once since that is inferior(indeed). What makes Mew bad is that it can master anyone 1 thing in a certain set.
Im just saying this is my feel, but if this isnt a good direction or "track" I just wana put it out there.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Honestly, it's impossible to even reasonably answer most of Rising_Dusk's questions because we literally have no idea what moves will be sketched without at least a general idea of what moves it learns naturally. If it doesn't learn strong offensive moves or have decent offensive stabs, having access to Shell Smash / Quiver Dance will be pointless. High Speed would ensure moves like Spore / Spikes (both in a small number of pokemon) can be used effectively (especially with items like Lum Berry or Focus Sash at our disposal).

You've got the right idea, but you're thinking about it backwards. We can answer the questions I provided in the OP if we assume that we develop the CAP a certain way. We've got a lot of "If we do X, we'll get Y", and simply bringing that to the surface does a lot to further our understanding of where we are and where we can go, which is the whole point of this stage. We try to answer those questions first and then use the answers we came up with as direction for how to develop the CAP down the road! You actually even did this yourself in your post, which was really cool and started up the talk of Serperior. Good on you for that!

Anyway, I only provided the Smeargle question because I felt it would help some people anchor to what Sketch is applied to currently. For a few posters, it appears to have helped them better understand what's going on and what might happen with CAP 2. I think it's helped where I hoped it would, and otherwise been ignored by people who already knew what was going on. That means it did its job.

I feel that we've made a lot of good progress in understanding the types of moves associated to different roles and also the sorts of things we need to be wary of down the road to make sure that we keep CAP 2 in check. I'm glad that discussion progressed onto something like Serperior, as there have been some strong cases for that which have been quite convincing. I'm not quite sure if Scrafty is the ideal model anymore, as Serperior is a pretty solid model too. Still, both fit under the umbrella of bulky offense, just styled a little differently. For that reason, bulky offense is definitely the overarching structure that we'll be following for CAP 2. I imagine the Serperior and Scrafty camps will reignite their battle fires when the stats discussion comes around, but there are actually a few other things we need to discuss before then! Expect a new discussion thread shortly!