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Pokémon Buzzwole
- Thread starter HC
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Or you could just stop putting Assault Vest on everything.
I can perfectly see why Assault Vest may not be the best item on Buzzwole now. It's just that I didn't see anyone discredit it in this particular thread so I was under the impression that it was still considered somewhat viable. And TBH I had completely forgotten that Buzzwole gets Roost. Yeah. With HP like Buzzwole's, Roost is a pretty tough move to give up when your not running a Choice Item.
Just because AV is a mediocre set doesn't mean what you said is true at all lol. Anyone can make meta sets. I made the EV spread (well, two) that made Tank Mega Heracross rise up towards the last few months of ORAS OU, and I've *never* participated in an non-casual OU tournament.
AV is a good item. Buzzwole's typing, access to Roost, and vulnerability to Burn make it a much better physical wall than special. Going AV doesn't mean you want to stay in on strong special attackers, it just means in a pinch you can RK them.
I dont see much use for AV on buzzwole at all. Losing out on roost or the ability to run leftovers just seems like too much of a turn off. While it does boost buzzwoles spdef, buzzwole shouldent be taking special hits normally at all. I feel like it actualy loses longevity with the AV as opposed to like Roost 3 atk. Even if you can potentialy live a special hit you wouldent normally survive and pick somthing off you just lose out on the utility and let buzz take tons of unwanted damage.
I think one of the other big things that Buzzwole loses by going Assault Vest is his better recovery and a significant amount of power that he needs. Assault Vest Conkeldurr (which wasn't even its best set for OU by the time ORAS ended) did what it would because it had Guts to gain something off of being Statused rather than simply suffer passive damage or some other effect. Buzzwole's speed is also salvageable, so he's not necessarily "forced" to take hits to attack things, and while it's STAB on him, Bug is a weaker STAB-draining option than Fighting was, with one more resistance and significantly less Super-Effective coverage.
Taunt is also a very good move for Buzzwole, obviously offering him the ability to break a lot of defensive mons and stop certain set ups like Hazard stackers. Because of Beast Boost, it's also a dangerous move to sac against Buzzwole at times just to get a free switch-in, as a +1 boost narrows his list of answers just a bit.
Besides that, Assault Vest doesn't seem to synergize with Buzzwole very well outside the supposed stat compliment. Besides the Recovery and utility mentioned, Buzzwole's typing already gears a lot of his notable resists towards types that are either primarily Physical and/or whose Special users are too strong or have Coverage for him anyway (Fighting, Bug, Dark, Ground), barring Grass which is just not a very strong offensive typing outside of Tapu Bulu (which is mostly for Grassy Terrain and Bulu's absurd BP + stats).
Taunt is also a very good move for Buzzwole, obviously offering him the ability to break a lot of defensive mons and stop certain set ups like Hazard stackers. Because of Beast Boost, it's also a dangerous move to sac against Buzzwole at times just to get a free switch-in, as a +1 boost narrows his list of answers just a bit.
Besides that, Assault Vest doesn't seem to synergize with Buzzwole very well outside the supposed stat compliment. Besides the Recovery and utility mentioned, Buzzwole's typing already gears a lot of his notable resists towards types that are either primarily Physical and/or whose Special users are too strong or have Coverage for him anyway (Fighting, Bug, Dark, Ground), barring Grass which is just not a very strong offensive typing outside of Tapu Bulu (which is mostly for Grassy Terrain and Bulu's absurd BP + stats).
It doesn't matter who a set comes from so long as it's effective. If someone makes an AV Buzzwole set that puts in work, especially on high-ladder (where plenty of unknown players are successful), then I'll be convinced. My point is that those who innovate sets, regardless of who they are, must prove its merit before preaching its worth. That's the difference between a "meme" set and a "lord" set.
on a side note I am myself a memelord, just not on showdown
Note that tour players will look for unorthodox strategies because other tour players know the standard (and more reliable) sets like the backs of their hands. As such many will use "innovative" sets that are honestly bad in general but are very effective on a specific team build meant to counter the pokemon/team archetype that they expect their opponent to bring. ABR's SD Skarmory set got hyped after his 1300-turn game vs Tele, but unless I fully expect a need for that set, I will never even consider using it; it almost always sucks.
Innovating is always fun, and I encourage players to try it. You never know, it might end up being great.
What's up with the word creativity now? Has ABR unleashed an unstoppable meme upon us?
Also I think that the Ultra Beasts were a case of very focused design- they have very precisely turned stats and move pools to excel at what they do but nothing much else. Buzzwole is a prime example, I think- it's probably the best sub puncher in the game right now and can run a spicy choice band set, but it suffers massively from the existence of ghosts and flying types that aren't Landorus or Gliscor since it gets Ice Punch or any strong special attacker really. Long story short, I think the Ultra Beasts (including Buzzwole) are impossible to be creative with unless you want a spot in the Trol de Cul (Did I spell it right and is it even still around).
Okay, you can get creative with Celesteela, but fuck that thing.
And yet I run it...
Also I think that the Ultra Beasts were a case of very focused design- they have very precisely turned stats and move pools to excel at what they do but nothing much else. Buzzwole is a prime example, I think- it's probably the best sub puncher in the game right now and can run a spicy choice band set, but it suffers massively from the existence of ghosts and flying types that aren't Landorus or Gliscor since it gets Ice Punch or any strong special attacker really. Long story short, I think the Ultra Beasts (including Buzzwole) are impossible to be creative with unless you want a spot in the Trol de Cul (Did I spell it right and is it even still around).
Okay, you can get creative with Celesteela, but fuck that thing.
And yet I run it...
Somthing id like to add on about Av buzzwole is that compared to other AV users in the past Putting a AV on buzzwole does nothing notable outside of living somthing really random. Previous AV users in the past and currently have pretty good reasons for using them in the first place as it allows them to check specific top tier threats really well such as AV magearna vs lele or Torn-t vs Gengar/keldeo (ORAS). Av buzzwole's spdef is so minimal that Slapping a AV on it does nothing when you could instead use a item that grants more general power like lo or CB or provide utility and passive recovery like leftovers sets.
Here's a fun Buzzwole set I've messed around with.
Vodka Tea (Buzzwole) @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 184 Def / 60 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Ice Punch
- Focus Punch
- Leech Life
A brief explanation of the Buzzwole EVs. Buzzwole has some amazing physical bulk, I wanted to utilise that. I'll explain the EVs for each stat individually.
200 Hp ensures chansey's seismic toss does not break our sub as we have a 101 hp sub. This can also be achieved with 196 EVs but I liked the roundness of 200, plus having an odd Hp stat is a good habit to get into.
64 Attack, Adamant, because we hit a jump point between 60 and 64 EVs, giving us a huge attack stat which can be invested in more if need be. We at least 2hKO all landoruses, garchomps unless they are rocking the yache berry. They can't do much to us other than z-fly or z-fire respectively. So against good players it is extremyl safe to switch in to either because of our crazy defence.
184 Def is a high number that most people dump into attack. Buzzwole has extremely good physical bulk, one of the best actually with it's huge Hp stat. These EVs ensure we have slightly lower defence than attack, so we get an attack boost when we get a kill. But it's more than that, we have higher bulk than fully invested slowbro, 252 Hp, 252 defence, bold. Slowbro was one the best switch ins in gen 6, with its high defence and Hp, with access to regenerator and slack off. Buzzwole is similar as we can switch into almost all ground moves and leech life our health back.
This set has so much defence that choice scarf tapu lele's psyshock in psychic terrain doesn't KO us:
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Buzzwole in Psychic Terrain: 284-336 (67.9 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
60 SPdef is just leftover EVs, but they still serve a purpose. 12 Evs in spdef ensure that toxapex's scald does not break our sub ever, 60 spdef turns quagsire's scald from a 100% chance to break our sub, into a 25% chance, which is useful against stall. I don't have much justification after that, because Buzzwole's Spdef is way too low, I don't feel like investing too much into it is a good idea.
Ice punch can be removed for EQ or poison jab, but I feel it works best as it is a great Zyagrade, Landorus and garchomp counter, whilst also having the opportunity to become a sweeper if played correctly. Leech life is necessary for recovery and as a strong stab. Focus punch + sub speaks for itself, it can be exceptionally easy to set up subs against Mega sableye, amoongus, tangrowth or other status mons we naturally outspeed. Focus punch is 150 Bp stab with a high attack stat, with no drawbacks behind a sub. Superpower, brick break and hammer arm are terrible in my opinion. Superpower weakens our 2 best stats, hammer arm lowers our not too terrible speed, and brick break is just bad.
I haven't invested in speed as it would eat into our bulk, or attacking presence, and it isn't too necessary if you set up a substitute properly.
Leftovers obviously allows longevity and is the best item on this, as buzzwole does not need life orb boosts, or plate boosts if played correctly.
You can change the spread as much as you like, but I promise this is the optimal Buzzwole set. CB prevents any decent plays, life orb kills you too quickly, roost sets leave you too open to status (however I would say this is second best).
Buzzwole has so far been played incorrectly, it should be played like a bulkier, stronger mega heracross with moxie instead of skill link. Not as a cheap, slower pheromosa.
Vodka Tea (Buzzwole) @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 184 Def / 60 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Ice Punch
- Focus Punch
- Leech Life
A brief explanation of the Buzzwole EVs. Buzzwole has some amazing physical bulk, I wanted to utilise that. I'll explain the EVs for each stat individually.
200 Hp ensures chansey's seismic toss does not break our sub as we have a 101 hp sub. This can also be achieved with 196 EVs but I liked the roundness of 200, plus having an odd Hp stat is a good habit to get into.
64 Attack, Adamant, because we hit a jump point between 60 and 64 EVs, giving us a huge attack stat which can be invested in more if need be. We at least 2hKO all landoruses, garchomps unless they are rocking the yache berry. They can't do much to us other than z-fly or z-fire respectively. So against good players it is extremyl safe to switch in to either because of our crazy defence.
184 Def is a high number that most people dump into attack. Buzzwole has extremely good physical bulk, one of the best actually with it's huge Hp stat. These EVs ensure we have slightly lower defence than attack, so we get an attack boost when we get a kill. But it's more than that, we have higher bulk than fully invested slowbro, 252 Hp, 252 defence, bold. Slowbro was one the best switch ins in gen 6, with its high defence and Hp, with access to regenerator and slack off. Buzzwole is similar as we can switch into almost all ground moves and leech life our health back.
This set has so much defence that choice scarf tapu lele's psyshock in psychic terrain doesn't KO us:
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Buzzwole in Psychic Terrain: 284-336 (67.9 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
60 SPdef is just leftover EVs, but they still serve a purpose. 12 Evs in spdef ensure that toxapex's scald does not break our sub ever, 60 spdef turns quagsire's scald from a 100% chance to break our sub, into a 25% chance, which is useful against stall. I don't have much justification after that, because Buzzwole's Spdef is way too low, I don't feel like investing too much into it is a good idea.
Ice punch can be removed for EQ or poison jab, but I feel it works best as it is a great Zyagrade, Landorus and garchomp counter, whilst also having the opportunity to become a sweeper if played correctly. Leech life is necessary for recovery and as a strong stab. Focus punch + sub speaks for itself, it can be exceptionally easy to set up subs against Mega sableye, amoongus, tangrowth or other status mons we naturally outspeed. Focus punch is 150 Bp stab with a high attack stat, with no drawbacks behind a sub. Superpower, brick break and hammer arm are terrible in my opinion. Superpower weakens our 2 best stats, hammer arm lowers our not too terrible speed, and brick break is just bad.
I haven't invested in speed as it would eat into our bulk, or attacking presence, and it isn't too necessary if you set up a substitute properly.
Leftovers obviously allows longevity and is the best item on this, as buzzwole does not need life orb boosts, or plate boosts if played correctly.
You can change the spread as much as you like, but I promise this is the optimal Buzzwole set. CB prevents any decent plays, life orb kills you too quickly, roost sets leave you too open to status (however I would say this is second best).
Buzzwole has so far been played incorrectly, it should be played like a bulkier, stronger mega heracross with moxie instead of skill link. Not as a cheap, slower pheromosa.
I like the idea, sort of a bulkier take on the standard SubPunch set. However, your EVs could use some optimizing.
For example, you mention that your HP and SpD EVs give Quagsire only a 25% chance to break your Sub, but I don't think that's true. Here's the full damage range for Quagsire's Scald:
0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 200 HP / 60 SpD Buzzwole: 93-109 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- 38.3% chance to 4HKO
(93, 93, 94, 96, 96, 97, 99, 100, 100, 102, 103, 105, 105, 106, 108, 109)
200 HP EVs gives you 101 HP subs, which means there's actually a 7/16 chance for it to break your Sub. Even besides that, since you have decided to just go for more bulk instead of investing more in Spe and Atk, you'll benefit more by investing in HP first. For example, if you maximize his HP by moving 16 SpD EVs and 36 Def EVs to HP, you actually reduce Quagsire's chance of breaking your Sub slightly while also slightly boosting your bulk on both sides. Here's some calculations to demonstrate.
0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Buzzwole: 93-111 (22.2 - 26.5%) -- 16.8% chance to 4HKO
(93, 94, 96, 97, 97, 99, 100, 102, 102, 103, 105, 106, 106, 108, 109, 111)
Max HP Buzzwole makes 104 HP Subs, so you can see from the damage range that Quagsire now only breaks your Sub 6/16 of the time.
252 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 200 HP / 60 SpD Buzzwole: 392-464 (96.7 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Buzzwole: 404-476 (96.6 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 200 HP / 184 Def Buzzwole: 382-451 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148 Def Buzzwole: 393-463 (94 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Just a couple of random examples to demonstrate the slight reduction in damage and KO chance. It's not a huge difference, but it's still an optimization all the same. There's probably a better benchmark for Def and SpD that you could aim for (you'll need 252 HP / 92 SpD to completely prevent 0 SpA Quagsire from breaking your Sub, for example), but this is just a little change to help improve what you have so far. Hope it helps!
An interesting idea, I'll definitely try it out. Thanks for the advice :D
Pretty much any team that likes a sturdy physical Wallbreaker/Stallbreaker. Buzzwole eats pretty much any physical attacker that can't hit it with an SE move, so it finds plenty of opportunities to either Sub/Taunt/whatever depending on the set you're running. Something that can stomach special hits and eat Fire attacks is a good team choice here, so bulky waters are excellent teammates for Buzz, especially seeing as how Buzzwole can beat up Grass types for Water typed teammates. Rotom-W is a pretty decent choice for a teammate, as it can not only give Buzzwole a decently fast/slow(depending on how you look at it) Volt Switch in, but also burn other physical attackers, improving Buzzwole's good defense, and giving our Buff Mosquito friend more opportunities to do what it wants to do, while Buzzwole beats the Grass Types/Excadrill Rotom hates.
Realistically, Buzzwole can fit on any team(s) that want a powerful physical tank that can fill multiple roles depending on moveset/item choice. It's decently versatile in what it can do, and can be customized to check/counter various threats due to its salvageable speed and good coverage options.
Thanks for the response! I'm thinking something like rotom-w/heatran/buzz would pretty effective.
Always pack a lure for Tapu Fini, since Buzzwole can't break it unless it runs Poison Jab, and you generally don't want to run jab when Sub, Focus Punch, Leech Life, and EQ/Ice Punch are its best moves.
My suggestions are Bloom Doom Tran, SD Defensive Lando-T (rocks make it think you can't do much, but +2 EQ smacks it hard), Protean Greninja with HP Electric, Thunderbolt Latios, etc.
I've been using the sub punch set with fightinium z in battle tree and the focusing thing never comes up for all out pummeling, you can just treat it like a 200 BP STAB z move.
I haven't made an ou team with it yet but for battle tree it's great for accumulating and abusing beast boosts.
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