Other Bulky Offense-- the King of XY(?)

[effyouzion]

One example that immediately springs to mind is an RMT made by someone who I commonly converse with about our stall teams, Daunting Dreadnoughts . I also am working on laddering with a Rhyperior stall team, and will RMT that sometime. Stall right now is perfectly possible, and will be even more so once Mega Kangaskhan, pinsir, and the other broken mons are removed. Defog makes it so now, stall only runs SR, and has made Offensive Stall the most popular type.

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What Offensive Stall is:

Although there have not been any significant additions to stall besides Mega Venusaur, the nerf to Rain and Sun was huge for stall. It is still definitely viable.

EDIT: Mega Luke will probably be banned, but it can still be dealt with with Gyarados and Zapdos.

I actually think mega Pinsir is one of the easier megas to deal with. Just use Skarmory. As far as Gyarados as a mega Luc counter, a max def Gyara can take a +1 close combat (intimidate + swords dance on the switch) but can't do much in return unless you run earthquake, which you probably don't on a stall team. Zapdos is better, max physical def can take a +2 CC and thunderbolt comes really close to KOing (83-99%) after the CC drop.

I haven't thought about mega Lucario needing a ban, but if he ever did get banished to uber land, it would be huge for stall. This 1 mon is the biggest threat to the playstyle aside from Kanga (who's all but guaranteed to go to ubers IMO).

 

[sidakarya]

I'm surprised how cutthroat-offensive this metagame is; much different from what I and many others have predicted but a month ago.

I do wonder, once the metagame as settled and broken things are established as broken, if the metagame indeed develops into something slower as was said a month ago. There's still MUH PRIORITY to deal with, but even a metagame without M-Khan would be far less difficult imo.

 

[Flamebot]

Just to clarify, this set would be stall, right?
Gliscor@Toxic orb
Knock Off
Protect
Toxic
Subsitute

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I don't know if it is okay to speculate about bannings here, but I simply do not think Mega-Luc is that overpowered since its primary selling point is an adaptability Close Combat with 113 speed. Its coverage moves do not even gain the Adaptability bonus and are significantly weaker (for example a super-effective Ice Punch hits for 150 while neutral Adaptability Close Combat hits for 240)

It is still quite frail though.

Kangaskhan is another matter, due to its ability that allows it to set up easily, high speed tier, access to strong priority, and bulk. Lucario doesn't even have the bulk of Kangaskhan and has worse typing.

Here is an example of Kangaskhan's bulk against the most common spread:

252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 361-429 (87.1 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Keldeo is relevant since it is in a higher speed tier (but needs to be running Timid), can hit is with a super-effective STAB, has a high offensive stats, and has a boosting item. Still, it is a guaranteed KO with Stealth Rock or Spikes, but due to Defog and more Rapid Spinners it seems harder to keep it up on the field.

Kangaskhan can do:

252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 252-297 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

or

252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 361-429 (87.1 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

So, if it is already set-up with no Rocks, then Keldeo's likely to die.

One reason I use Conkeldurr is because (1) it can KO with Kangaskhan if it is weakened (to about 60%) with Mach Punch (and resist Sucker Punch), (2) Can take a Sucker Punch from a boosted Kangaskhan if it is paralyzed and can KO it with an Iron Fist, Life Orb Drain Punch, (3) Can take a unboosted Returns and KO back.

In these three scenarios, Kangaskhan is handicapped in some way. If it is (1) not statused, (2) boosted, (3) at full health, then it is GG for the opponent. It would seem that offensive solutions to Kangaskhan are quite sparse.

Also, you need to have a plan against Kangaskhan as I do send out Conkeldurr before Kangaskhan is out.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Let's not talk about stuff being banned or making ban assumptions, otherwise I'll have to delete the whole conversation (which I'd rather not, and it's hard to bring myself to delete posts that I strongly agree with).

You're free to say "Lucario is bad for the metagame" for instance (as far as I can tell), but don't make any posts stating that something should be or will be banned (even if it's true...).

sidakarya -- I can't help but say, "I told you so", because I totally did in the OP. Everyone who thought XY was going to be good for stall or defensive play (it was honestly mindless prattling have to say) was out of their minds.

That said, even I-- who assumed XY would be majorly offensive-- drastically underestimated the degree of it; and assumed it would be something much slower and totally different from what it is. I thought XY would be significantly less offensive than BW-- instead, it's WAY MORE offensive than BW EVER WAS, which is crazy and something I would never have predicted with weather getting so utterly nerfed.

I too agree that the megas have a lot to do with it. It'll be really interesting to see how the game shapes going forward.

 

[ImaLazyProcrastinator]

I started playing Pokebank OU recently (only around 1700, so not that great) but my attempts at playing stall were quite unsuccessful. I am by no means amazing at it, but teams involving heal bell/wish passers were brutal, especially since a lot of the mega evolutions have decent base bulk, and have the ability to hit extremely hard if you can't get rid of them fast. Pokemon like Genesect can be tough to deal with (Protect is helpful though) because they give very little respite for slow teams.

On the other hand, teams which put heavy pressure through multiple sweepers can be really powerful. I'm not sure whether it is entirely fair to call it HO, as pokemon like Dragonite with Weakness Policy and ES can crush teams, with Defog making SR harder to keep up. Follow it up with another powerhouse like M-Kangaskhan, and all you need is a team based solely around chipping/statusing the enemy until they are in kill range.

 

[Chaoswalker]

Bulky offense is pretty much my favorite way to play, period. Last gen my best team was: Rotom W, Flygon, Celebi, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Jellicent. It doesn't get much more bulky offense than that.
This gen though, I've found myself forced to reach for much stronger pokemon. I wanted to play bulky offense but then... Thundurus I? Keldeo? Yeesh. I almost never touch life orb.

You thought starmie was offensive spinner? Excadrills around every corner! Genesect on the team? 90% chance it's the lead, unless of course they have Rotom W. mmm... Yeah, this meta is extremely offensive, but... I don't know if it's bad, exactly. I don't mind a battle that's a little faster, so long as it's balanced. If everything is answerable in multiple ways and you don't have to use only the top 20 to do so then... oh well.

So far I haven't felt any pokemon was just too overwhelming to deal with, though at the same time I AM using P.defense Heatran to beat Mega Kahn.

 

[Jaroda]

I think a big contributing factor to this underestimated aggressive meta is the skewed availability of good offensive abilities to defensive one. So many new things have abilities like Adaptability, Gale Wings, Huge Power, Tough Claws, etc. Also admittedly while we thought things like Sticky Web and Defog would make imperative things like SR less relevant, the simple fact that switching to and using Defog takes away SO much momentum and gives your opponent so much lee weigh it often isn't worth it. There are still too many immediately powerful high BP moves. Steel also isn't the same defensive juggernaut it once was losing its Ghost and Dark resistances, making wall breaking far easier. And while certain Mega Pokes have great defensive abilities and stats, the loss of item hurts so bad for Lefties alone, whereas mon like Char X and Kangaskhan have abilities thatmake up for or totally eclipses the loss of an item. Aggron and Venusaur could be fantastic defensive behemoths with their stats, typing and abilities but lack of reliable forms of recovery (Venusaur at least has a few options) makes it hard. Not to mention they have to Megavolve first before having their unique defensive attributes.

I think GF should have strived for more typing balance. Ice needs a buff so badly. A water and Fairy resistance alone for example even on top of their weaknesses would open up some amazing new walls like Avalugg. Fighting should receive the same immunity to Ghost that Normal types have. It only makes sense since neither can affect each other. Bug be resistant to Electric? Electric be resistant to Dark? You can tell they tried a few things to make defensive playstyles more viable, like Rest reverting to old mechanics, Grass mon getting powder immunities, etc. But these defensive abilities like Solid Rock and Filter just have horrible distribution. Something like a reverse Hustle would be great where the enemies attacks have 100% accuracy on you but you receive 20% less damage. Or another contact ability with a one time phasing property for each switch in?

But yeah, the problem is the imbalance of multipliers. Offense has so many more methods of getting percentage increases to offensive power.

 

[Aoda]

I wonder...With SR being less threatning, wouldn't it mean stuff from lower tiers could rise again? Ïf the meta loses a bit of it's focus on fighting types, some pokemon might bring a fresh wind, with new strategies they might bring. I know I shouldn't talk about bans and stuff, I just wanted to say how we can't conclude anything until around 2 months after pokebank's release.

I think a big contributing factor to this underestimated aggressive meta is the skewed availability of good offensive abilities to defensive one. So many new things have abilities like Adaptability, Gale Wings, Huge Power, Tough Claws, etc. Also admittedly while we thought things like Sticky Web and Defog would make imperative things like SR less relevant, the simple fact that switching to and using Defog takes away SO much momentum and gives your opponent so much lee weigh it often isn't worth it. There are still too many immediately powerful high BP moves. Steel also isn't the same defensive juggernaut it once was losing its Ghost and Dark resistances, making wall breaking far easier. And while certain Mega Pokes have great defensive abilities and stats, the loss of item hurts so bad for Lefties alone, whereas mon like Char X and Kangaskhan have abilities thatmake up for or totally eclipses the loss of an item. Aggron and Venusaur could be fantastic defensive behemoths with their stats, typing and abilities but lack of reliable forms of recovery (Venusaur at least has a few options) makes it hard. Not to mention they have to Megavolve first before having their unique defensive attributes.

I think GF should have strived for more typing balance. Ice needs a buff so badly. A water and Fairy resistance alone for example even on top of their weaknesses would open up some amazing new walls like Avalugg. Fighting should receive the same immunity to Ghost that Normal types have. It only makes sense since neither can affect each other. Bug be resistant to Electric? Electric be resistant to Dark? You can tell they tried a few things to make defensive playstyles more viable, like Rest reverting to old mechanics, Grass mon getting powder immunities, etc. But these defensive abilities like Solid Rock and Filter just have horrible distribution. Something like a reverse Hustle would be great where the enemies attacks have 100% accuracy on you but you receive 20% less damage. Or another contact ability with a one time phasing property for each switch in?

But yeah, the problem is the imbalance of multipliers. Offense has so many more methods of getting percentage increases to offensive power.

You make some good points. Huge power and Adaptability were given to pokemon with base attack stats that didn't have that edge (I personally find Adaptability rediculous on M.Lucario, but that relates more to the slight dislike I have for GF's choice in mega evolutions). I'm still a bit sceptic to sticky web and defog, especially since the distribution is not that desirable (Galvantualla's sollace lies in it's speed stat, other than that it's pretty meh imo. Distribution of defog to flying type pokemon is an interesting choice, due to SR. Whilst they do not want to switch in SR, defog just seems like that gamble; which makes it seem like a balanced move. I think rapid spin isn't irrelevant, it still has some uses.

Steel may have lost two of their resistances, it does not take away that they are defensively good pokemon, in terms of stats. Venusaur already had some pretty good defenses and mega evolution isnearly instant, so I'm not sure how you meant that venusaur would somehow fear not having defenses.

I like how GF tried to give poison types more relevance, but giving steel types an advantage over fairy types is a bit too much going in their way imo. I do think that Ice type needs a buff - pokemon like Aurorus and Avalugg are sad imo, since their typing pretty much messes things up for them. I'm not sure how fighting types are in need of an immunity against ghosts, since fighting types still were popular in 5th gen, and won't suddenly become obsolete. I still hope GF makes expansions with distribution of mega evolutions to pokemon that actually need them.

 

[Jaroda]

I wonder...With SR being less threatning, wouldn't it mean stuff from lower tiers could rise again? Ïf the meta loses a bit of it's focus on fighting types, some pokemon might bring a fresh wind, with new strategies they might bring. I know I shouldn't talk about bans and stuff, I just wanted to say how we can't conclude anything until around 2 months after pokebank's release.



You make some good points. Huge power and Adaptability were given to pokemon with base attack stats that didn't have that edge (I personally find Adaptability rediculous on M.Lucario, but that relates more to the slight dislike I have for GF's choice in mega evolutions). I'm still a bit sceptic to sticky web and defog, especially since the distribution is not that desirable (Galvantualla's sollace lies in it's speed stat, other than that it's pretty meh imo. Distribution of defog to flying type pokemon is an interesting choice, due to SR. Whilst they do not want to switch in SR, defog just seems like that gamble; which makes it seem like a balanced move. I think rapid spin isn't irrelevant, it still has some uses.

Steel may have lost two of their resistances, it does not take away that they are defensively good pokemon, in terms of stats. Venusaur already had some pretty good defenses and mega evolution isnearly instant, so I'm not sure how you meant that venusaur would somehow fear not having defenses.

I like how GF tried to give poison types more relevance, but giving steel types an advantage over fairy types is a bit too much going in their way imo. I do think that Ice type needs a buff - pokemon like Aurorus and Avalugg are sad imo, since their typing pretty much messes things up for them. I'm not sure how fighting types are in need of an immunity against ghosts, since fighting types still were popular in 5th gen, and won't suddenly become obsolete. I still hope GF makes expansions with distribution of mega evolutions to pokemon that actually need them.

These are all means of balancing the offense/defense ratio. I didn't say Venusaur was a bad pokemon, it is in fact awesome. But more offensive pokes receive a disproportionate amount of benefits. To be a good attacker, you need a high attacking stat. 100 used to be considered good, and 120 used to be amazing. Now? 100 is now ranking as "average", sub-par even, where now teams can easily have 4-6 pokes with attacking stats between 120 and 170 in OU! Meanwhile most defensive mon require having a good type combination as well as good HP AND the corresponding defense stats, meaning you have multiple stat priorities that affect the damage you take.

I didn't say Fighting was irrelevant, it's still one of the best offensive STABs in the game along Fire, Ghost, Flying, Water, Ground and Dragon with numerous high BP moves. But it's defensive merit is horrible. A Ghost immunity is in line with Normal being immune to Ghost because the idea is the types can't interact with each other. This balances Fighting as a defensive typing, ESPECIALLY since Ghost is only resisted by Dark now, and the amount of OU normal types is sorely lacking. Psychic has also been on nothing but a overcompensating downward spiral since GSC. It wasn't the typing itself that was broken back then, it was that GF made three of the best pokemon in the game, Alakazam, Mew and Mewtwo, all Psychic types, with the only SE moves against them stuff like Lick and Pin Missle. Now Psychic typing is a liability being weak to Pursuit, newly dominant Ghost moves, and Fairy and Ghost being all you need for Fighting moves. A Fairy, Steel or Flying resist seems like a fair addition. Every typing should be viable in a Meta but the fact that several typings all almost universally more detrimental than beneficial shows this is not the case.

There ARE however, some underutilized moves and items that can steer thing into a more Bulky Offense meta if used more. Knock Off is strong and removes invaluable Choice items, Life Orbs, Leftovers and the like. Fast hard hitting VoltTurn users like Genesect that often depend on a choice item will become severely hindered. Red Card and phasing moves in general really need to be used more. A single Red Card can prevent any sweep from getting off the ground, and not even Sub protects against the two. Rocky Helmet on something like Ferrothorn or Unaware like Clefable/Quagsire or Gooey Goodra become infuriating physical barriers. Dual Screens help everything, but Bulky set-up sweepers can set up far safer and HO teams would have to Defog away their hazards which they in turn rely on. WoW has seen a huge boost in usage which certainly slows down the offensive pressure.

I will however say that indeed because more things are getting 2HKO as opposed to OHKO like back in DPP is that at least not slightly more indicative of an overall bulkier meta?

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

SuperMeep
Goodra does have some use over Latias as an offensive tank (not as a special wall), but its strength over Latias is almost exclusively related to what it lacks, rather than what it possesses. The only reason why you'd ever think of using Goodra over Latias is because of the weaknesses Goodra lacks.
-No weakness to Ghost makes handling Gengar/Alakazam a lot easier.
-No Pursuit Weakness to be one shot by Tyranitar
-No U-Turn weakness to be one shot by Genesect (and it does have fire attacks besides HP Fire, so another point for Goodra there)
That said, while it does make Goodra a bit better suited to handle certain situations, it's still not particularly GOOD in those situations.

While I do agree with you that Latias generally the superior option, I think you're being a touch unfair to our gooey friend, who definitely has its uses. For one, sap sipper and the lack of a psychic typing give it much different set of weaknesses and resistances, allowing it to fit into different teams under different circumstances. Secondly, Goodra has much better potential to go mixed/physical, especially if it can glean a sap sipper boost, enabling to use it's slightly wider offensive movepool (at least wider physically speaking) and higher attack. Goodra can also make a fairly decent assault vest user, a trait which Latias lacks due to its reliance on its support movepool (notable roost). I still think Latias is generally superior, but Goodra can have some uses.

(This is not to say that Bulky Offense is inferior, only that it isn't COMPLETELY better than HO. And the OP uses hyperboles to express Bulky Offenses effectiveness imo as well as underplaying HO and Stall. Stall with Sticky Web means they have faster walls to escape Taunts, Toxics, get Subs up, etc. I bet no one has tried stall wth sticky web so please lets not theorymon imo I think that could work. HO works with sticky web, and while "its crippled more," but "its crippled more" is the bane of HO since HO is basically the riskiest playstyle since it plays so fast and offensive compared to any other. Seriously, I don't see how that is a deterrent lmao.

Having been predominantly a semistall player up until gen six, I'm going to quickly go over why stall with sticky web is a rather tough team idea. First, you have to give up a team slot to something otherwise useless to a stall team; none of the sticky web users have any notable defensive presence, and the only one with support options is Smeargle, who can't use them. Not only does that take a defensive presence away from the team- you essentially have to counter the majority of the metagame in only five pokemon- but it also takes away a teamslot from a pokemon that could have been providing a support option. Stall teams have to run hazard setters, hazard clearers (generally spinners; stall wants to keep its hazards), status spreading, phazing, a cleric, and generally a spinblocker. Instead of six pokemon, the team now has to do this in five. Lastly, setting sticky web takes a turn setting a hazard *less* valuable to stall, while at the same time not setting a hazard more valuable to stall, such as rocks or spikes to inhibit an incoming spinner or defogger.

Additionally, your characterization of Heavy Offense as "basically the riskiest playstyle" isn't entirely correct. Tournament players or those wishing to ladder seriously want consistency. This is why gimmicks are so frowned upon; they're generally "high risk, high reward," where the risk outweighs the reward. Same thing for Thunder vs. Thunderbolt or Ice Beam vs. Blizzard; battlers want consistency. A good heavy offense team isn't about risk. It's about continuous offensive pressure and plowing down walls and counters through repeated assaults. When heavy offense becomes a matter of risk, or prediction, you've lost control of the game.

I'm gonna stop ranting now.

 

[Edgar81539]

I can say that the metagame is shifting to the heavy use of multiple physical setup sweepers. Not only Assault Vest discourages the spamming of Calm Mind and the like, the new special wall behemoths are very hard to take down unless you carry specific counters for each of their problems. Calm Mind + Recover was a much better tactic last season. Pokemons like Tyrantrum, Zygarde, Azumarill, Dragonite, all have something in common: they can take a hit and kill back.

 

[Selena Gomaz]

There are 4 Pokemon preventing a balanced metagame: Genesect, Mega-Lucario, Mega-Kangaskhan and Landorus. Until these 4 Pokemon are gone, the meta will not be the projected bulky offense. They can tear apart bulky Pokemon and wear them down with their superb coverage. I really enjoy bulky offense but it wont happen until the tier is stabilized.

 

[termi]

Really Chou Toshio, what you are saying is not true. Stall might be unable to gain success at the moment, but to say that it's dead is far from true. The reason why stall isn't viable right now is simply because the metagame hasn't settled and there's some shit running around that really has no business in OU. Mega Khan and Mega Luke immediately come to mind and both of these will surely be banned in the near future. Once these are removed, stall will become viable again. Also, how the fuck is the meta more offensive than it was in gen 5, last gen's OU was disgustingly offensive up to the point where I'd say stall was generally terrible (like seriously, there wasn't one single way you could reliably check every major offensive threat in the meta, no matter how hard you tried).

Give the meta a few extra months, once the top tier threats have been recognized and everything that's disgusting has been banned, stall will surely be usable again. Maybe full stall won't be, who knws, but I can at the very least see semistall getting good. You make it sound - mind, I might be misinterpreting you - like stall is dead and buried, but I don't think we can go ahead and say that right now. The meta is too unstable right now.

 

[effyouzion]

There are 4 Pokemon preventing a balanced metagame: Genesect, Mega-Lucario, Mega-Kangaskhan and Landorus. Until these 4 Pokemon are gone, the meta will not be the projected bulky offense. They can tear apart bulky Pokemon and wear them down with their superb coverage. I really enjoy bulky offense but it wont happen until the tier is stabilized.

I disagree about Landorus. He's walled by any of the specially defensive fairies (Florges, Sylveon, Togekiss), the blobs, and assault vest users like Goodra. Obviously Landorus can go physical, but without permanent sand this gen his moves are actually pretty weak on that side (no permanent sand force boost), and once you know he's physical he's not anywhere near as big of a threat.

Also gonna disagree on Genesect. He's everywhere but so is priority. Pinsir, Talonflame, Azumarill, even mixed Aegislash can make his life hell (shadow ball -> shadow sneak for the KO, survives +1 flamethrower). Obviously it's hard to get those match ups against Gene because he can just u-turn for days, but if you have something to absorb u-turns (Heatran, for example) and stealth rocks on the field he will get worn down to the point where he can easily be KO'd. Gene can't switch in on anything but a poison attack either if you're keeping up offensive pressure, so against bulky offense teams in particular I feel like he is a very manageable threat.

Totally agreed on Lucario and Kanga tho. There's nothing that can take their hits and OHKO in return except maybe a full health, max physical defensive Lando-T in the case of Lucario. And even then, if he's special, you're fucked.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Really Chou Toshio, what you are saying is not true. Stall might be unable to gain success at the moment, but to say that it's dead is far from true. The reason why stall isn't viable right now is simply because the metagame hasn't settled and there's some shit running around that really has no business in OU. Mega Khan and Mega Luke immediately come to mind and both of these will surely be banned in the near future. Once these are removed, stall will become viable again. Also, how the fuck is the meta more offensive than it was in gen 5, last gen's OU was disgustingly offensive up to the point where I'd say stall was generally terrible (like seriously, there wasn't one single way you could reliably check every major offensive threat in the meta, no matter how hard you tried).

Give the meta a few extra months, once the top tier threats have been recognized and everything that's disgusting has been banned, stall will surely be usable again. Maybe full stall won't be, who knws, but I can at the very least see semistall getting good. You make it sound - mind, I might be misinterpreting you - like stall is dead and buried, but I don't think we can go ahead and say that right now. The meta is too unstable right now.

Did you play during the first era of BW testing when we tested Drizzle + Kingdra, Manaphy, Shaymin-S, Darkrai and Deoxys-A? Because I did (voted too), and I can tell you that even that metagame was more balanced than what we have right now. Stall did much better even in that metagame, and it did much better in BW has a whole as well for instance. XY is more offensive as a gen no matter how you slice it.

So while the "lots of broken stuff" argument has some weight, it's not completely true either, since I'm directly comparing to the era of BW that similarly had "lots of broken stuff."

 

[termi]

Did you play during the first era of BW testing when we tested Drizzle + Kingdra, Manaphy, Shaymin-S, Darkrai and Deoxys-A? Because I did (voted too), and I can tell you that even that metagame was more balanced than what we have right now. Stall did much better even in that metagame, and it did much better in BW has a whole as well for instance. XY is more offensive as a gen no matter how you slice it.

So while the "lots of broken stuff" argument has some weight, it's not completely true either, since I'm directly comparing to the era of BW that similarly had "lots of broken stuff."

To be quite fair, I wasn't around during that time, so I can't compare early BW with early XY. What I do believe is that DrizzleSwim couldn't have been that bad for stall, considering Ferrothorn shits on pretty much every Swift Swimmer as far as I'm concerned. Other than that, I don't really know how stall succeeded back then, but I hope that the metagame will settle soon and that stall will become viable again or else I'm forced to play filthy offense ;_; (nah jk I got used to playing bulky offense and it's pretty cool but stall still is my thing)

 

[Chou Toshio]

Survey data shows that on average, competitive players prefer a more offensive metagame (given a choice of 1-10 with 10 being extremely offensive and 1 being extremely defensive, players prefer a metagame of about 6.5).

Personally, I think a metagame where traditional stall is greatly challenged is a healthy one-- because a metagame where 6 Pokemon can easily switch into, shrug off, and counter everything in the metagame is one that eliminates skill and prediction (if you can easily answer EVERYTHING with a stall team, you have a metagame that requires no skill-- you don't need to predict, because you can brain-lessly switch into everything).

The ideal metagame for skill (in my opinion) is offensive enough that Stall really struggles and cannot be a main-stream play style (beginners will fail terribly at it), but is defensive/slow enough that stall exists and does well in the hands of top players. Basically, it's an ideal metagame when it's mostly offensive, but creative stall teams really excel.

Stall did suffer in early BW, but not nearly as much as it does now. Ferrothorn/Jellicent/Tentacruel/Gliscor/Jirachi and many other stall-strategy abusers that are challenged now thrived in a metagame with with weather, and of course Rain Stall has a natural advantage against all those trying to abuse Swift Swim.

 

[sidakarya]

Chou Toshio, what is your opinion on the quality of the XY-metagame? Is it improved from, or a step back from BW in terms of how currently and potentially healthy, diverse, balanced it is? (I actually think, it's utterly dreadful now, but not utterly helpless and could improve later on as bans start to happen)

 

[Chou Toshio]

Hmmm... POTENTIALLY right? (Right now, I think it's pretty terrible)

That's really hard to answer, because I myself don't have a particular ideal myself except for a general idea of how offensive I'd like the metagame to be. XY is set to have less diversity than BW, but that's not a bad thing-- to many players, that's a good thing.

I think long term, XY has a lot more potential than BW for a highly skill-based metagame (one where the more skilled players win more often). I foresee XY becoming a lot like DPP in overall feel once we ban the main unbalancing offenders (though this needs to be quite liberal in my opinion-- we should not hold back too much). Meanwhile, I still think we'll continue to see a lot more lower tier threats in main-stream play than we did in DPP and ADV (just because so many have such useful niches and abilities thanks to BW/XY).

XY certainly has the potential to be really good. I don't think stall will recover to where it's as good as in DPP, but that's actually a good thing for players that want a more skill-heavy meta.

"better quality" is a little too subjective for me to weigh in on.


For instance, in terms of inspiring creativity (something that the community hasn't talked about much, but imo is also an aspect of measuring the community's skill), BW was a lot better than DPP. In DPP, you pretty much knew what to expect of the opposing team, and innovations were largely gimmicky, and even the strangest weren't really enough to totally take your opponent by surprise-- not to the degree that BW showed. Especially in tournaments, but even on the ladder, you could see a serious gap in the creativity that the metagame inspired/forced out of players, with BW players inventing a lot more new strategies than DPP players did. Should that be considered in thinking about "quality" of a metagame?

In terms of inspiring creativity, it's hard to say right now for XY-- it could go either way, but my gut instinct is XY will be at least as good if not better in this regard compared to BW.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'd be careful about saying a more offensive meta is a more skilled meta.

When you have everyone using offensive teams, a battle can be decided by few predictions, which leads to more variation in the victor. It's also easier to build an offensively inclined team than a defensive one.

Whereas when playstyles like semi-stall, stall and bulky offense dominate, generally many more predictions are required to attain a victory. The longer battle inherently makes individual instances of hax less relevant too.

 

[Chou Toshio]

That's why I said a "more offensive" metagame is ideal. This absolutely does not mean a 100% offense dominated meta, but one that is slightly slanted towards offense. Offensive enough that stall is not the dominant style, but defensive enough that stall thrives by being played and built by the best players.

Not only is this my idea of what the most "skilled" meta would be, but based on my survey data, it is also representative of general community's vision of an ideal metagame

-You want the meta to be offensive enough that 6 Defensive Pokemon will struggle to counter everything, thus preventing the game being about brainlessly easy switch ins
-In other words, each turn's decision HAS IMPORTANCE and is MEANINGFUL to the outcome of the battle-- both players are forced to think and make good decisions each turn.
-However, you DON'T want a metagame SO offensive that one mis-prediction can cost you the game a majority of the time (the current metagame with M Kang and M Luke around)
-As you said, you don't want games to be able to end instantly either, as a decently long game gives more chance for skill to make itself clear.

In other words, the "ideal" indicated by a majority of player's opinions (6.5 out of 10) probably is close to a metagame that maximizes skill. The current meta is probably a 9 or even close to 10.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

Personally, I think a metagame where traditional stall is greatly challenged is a healthy one-- because a metagame where 6 Pokemon can easily switch into, shrug off, and counter everything in the metagame is one that eliminates skill and prediction (if you can easily answer EVERYTHING with a stall team, you have a metagame that requires no skill-- you don't need to predict, because you can brain-lessly switch into everything).

Just to put this out there, the traditional argument against this would be that a greater metric for the success of defensively oriented teams is found in their construction, rather than in their application. While some skill goes into building offensive teams, generally they're fairly simply built. If you look at the smogon apprentice program's team layouts, they have cookie cutter team layouts for heavy offense and bulky offense, but not for any type of stall. It takes more skill to build a defensively oriented team than to run a few exorbitantly powerful pokemon and call it a day.

-However, you DON'T want a metagame SO offensive that one mis-prediction can cost you the game a majority of the time (the current metagame with M Kang and M Luke around)

The problem here isn't that a mis-prediction can cost you the game- the problem here is that pokemon like mega-khan allow your opponent to be in control of the match, forcing you to make high-risk predictions in the first place. M-Khan has the ability to force players into higher risk, lower reward situations, which is why this metagame becomes bad for stall; stall thrives on reliability, which is then put into jeopardy by being forced to play riskily with a team not designed for such a playstyle.

 

[noknuckles]

I'm curious about the BW creativity vs DPP creativity comment. I got into competitive around BW2 so I wasn't around to see what it was like then.

Could the creativity be due to the growth in the community, and hence more minds being put together? 10,000 people churning their brains can come out with more ideas than 1,000 people. Even if most of those ideas end up being terrible, you're more likely to get something novel with so many people trying to gain an upper hand on everyone else.

 

[Exeggutive]

I think part of why the meta is so heavy offense dominant in xy compared to early bw1 with skymin and whatnot is mostly because a majority of late bw2 was skarm gar ho teams and we are still in that ho team phase.

Look at late DPP transisting to bw for example. Iirc, late DPP was a lot of balance fwg core teams that were bulky and used defensive synergy to create a way to have a strong offensive presence while having defensive options.
When bw1 came out, the same balance/semi stall strategies of DPP were still fresh and a lot of new pokes like jelli and ferro came out that implied fwg balance would still be very effective.

Basically, players are going to use whatever play style they used/familiar with in the previous meta.

Sorry for massive psychological hypothesis, but I think it's valid.