Other Between ORAS and XY.

[BlackBloodz]

approved by haunter
ORAS additions from alexwolf's ORAS Metagame discussion thread


Between XY and ORAS, a lot has changed; with new Mega Pokemons being introduced, the meta has seen quite a few shifts. Greninja was its first victim -after the quick ban of Mega Salamence- by being sent to Ubers with an outstanding 82% of the votes.
Mega Metagross was about to be the second, but it was saved by a few votes only.

Between XY and ORAS, some Pokemon kept themselves as threats such as Keldeo. Others just made the first step in ORAS and declared themselves "Top Tier Threats"; Landorus-I, Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye and the infamous Mega Metagross were the most noticeable out of those. On the other hand, other Pokemon took the bullet and dropped heavily in usage and viability. These include Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X and Mega Heracross.

With ORAS being released it changed the meta a lot. whether or not the ORAS changes benefited or harmed the metagame is subject to debate, this is something a lot of us may wonder which is the reason of this thread. Essentially, this read will be comparison between both XY and ORAS metaegames with respect to numerous criteria: threats, speed creep, which one is more fun, which one is more balance, what does/did each meta need to become closer to a "perfect tier". These questions are more will be discussed in this thread.



Here is a list of all changes made with the ORAS release:

Bans

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Greninja
Salamencite

New Abilities Released

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Tyrantrum -Rock Head
Serperior -Contrary
Emboar -Reckless
Samurott -Shell Armor
Feraligatr -Sheer Force
Typhlosion -Flash Fire
Meganium -Leaf Guard

New Mega Evolution

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Mega Beedrill
Typing: Bug/Poison
Ability: Adaptability
Stats: 65/150/40/15/80/145

Mega Pidgeot
Typing: Normal/Flying
Ability: No Guard
Stats: 83/80/80/135/80/121

Mega Slowbro
Typing: Water/Psychic
Ability: Shell Armor
Stats: 95/75/180/130/80/30

Mega Steelix
Typing: Steel/Ground
Ability: Sand Force
Stats: 75/125/230/55/95/30

Mega Sceptile
Typing: Grass/Dragon
Ability: Lightning Rod
Stats: 70/110/75/145/85/145

Mega Swampert
Typing: Water/Ground
Ability: Swift Swim
Stats: 100/150/110/95/110/70

Mega Sableye
Typing: Dark/Ghost
Ability: Magic Bounce
Stats: 50/85/125/85/115/20

Mega Sharpedo
Typing: Water/Dark
Ability: Strong Jaw
Stats: 70/140/70/110/65/105

Mega Camerupt
Typing: Fire/Ground
Ability: Sheer Force
Stats: 70/120/100/145/105/20

Mega Altaria
Typing: Dragon/Fairy
Ability: Pixilate
Stats: 75/110/110/110/105/80

Mega Glalie
Typing: Ice
Ability: Refrigerate
Stats: 80/120/80/120/80/100

Mega Salamence

Typing: Dragon/Flying
Ability: Aerialate
Stats: 95/145/130/120/90/120

Mega Metagross
Typing: Steel/Psychic
Ability: Tough Claws
Stats: 80/145/150/105/110/110

Mega Latias
Typing: Dragon/Psychic
Ability: Levitate
Stats: 80/100/120/140/150/110

Mega Latios
Typing: Dragon/Psychic
Ability: Levitate
Stats: 80/130/100/160/120/110

Mega Lopunny
Typing: Normal/Fighting
Ability: Scrappy
Stats: 65/136/94/54/96/135

Mega Gallade
Typing: Fighting/Psychic
Ability: Inner Focus
Stats: 68/165/95/65/115/110

Mega Audino
Typing: Normal/Fairy
Ability: Healer
Stats: 103/60/126/80/126/50

Mega Diancie
Typing: Rock/Fairy
Ability: Magic Bounce
Stats: 50/160/110/160/110/110

Movepool and Items Additions

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Items:
Custap Berry


Moves:
Earth Power and Heal Bell Diancie
Gunk Shot and Low Kick Greninja
High Jump Kick Lopunny
Crunch Gyarados
Knock Off, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, and Superpower Diggersby
Fire Punch and Thunder Punch Hawlucha
Drain Punch Chesnaught
Synthesis and Foul Play Gourgeist
Earth Power Volcanion
Superpower, Drain Punch, Gunk Shot, Knock Off, Ice Punch, Fire Punch Pangoro
Magnet Rise for Klefki
Huge Power is now compatible with Knock Off and Play Rough for Azumarill
Icicle Crash for Weavile

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Get rid of Greninja please n_n

Out of the new changes I actually love Magnet Rise Klefki the most, really good tool to fuck over Landorus (both formes) and other EQ/ground move carriers such as Latios and Excadrill.

 

[havokchomp123]

I would add some of the new abilities that were released. Pokemon like Serperior, Emboar, Tyrantrum, and Feraligator have now become viable pokemon in the OU metagame because of their abilites.
Edit: Tyrantrum gets rock head not sheer force (though i wonder what would happen if it did). Also might be worth adding Aurours (spelled it wrong but whatevs.)

 

[jpw234]

The most notable change going into ORAS was a bunch of new mega evolutions. I thought GF did a pretty good job of diversifying with the new megas and let a bunch of different playstyles be viable. We have a Volt-Turn mega (Beedrill), a couple of speedy cleaners (Pidgeot, Lopunny), wallbreaker (Metagross), stall megas (Sableye/Altaria), set-up threats (Altaria), tank (Slowbro), weather (Swampert), and a couple of other ones that have niche use in OU (Camerupt, Glalie, Sharpedo). This led to a pretty nice diversity in terms of teams as opposed to the massive centralization we dealt with last generation, which is a very nice change.

Otherwise, some ability/move changes led to a couple of Pokemon gaining viability, most notably Serperior, Feraligatr and Tyrantrum, as well as Synthesis Chesnaught, Magnet Rise Klefki, and Diggersby with a bunch of moves. Overall the metagame definitely shifted a bunch because the new megas are very prominent (particularly Sableye, Altaria, Metagross and Lopunny) but old megas like Gyarados, Venusaur, Charizards, Pinsir, Alakazam, Aerodactyl, Scizor, Gard etc. are still quite viable. I think part of why the new megas are maybe a bit more prominent is that GF did a better job balancing them, the first set had a bunch of clearly broken stuff (Kanga/Mawile/Blaziken/Gengar), whereas there's really only two new megas that are even close to that line (oh and Salamence, can't forget that guy).

Ultimately, I think the change to ORAS was very positive; there's a lot of room still for creativity in the metagame. With more and more mega evolutions fulfilling different niches I think the possibilities of a double-mega team still need to be explored, but just having so many options for a mega evolution (and megas kind of call out to be built around to an extent) gives a bunch of different directions for teams to go, even though we still have some centralizing sets/Pokemon like FatChomp, Thundy, Rotom-W, etc. (which is perfectly healthy). Obviously the mega mechanic has hugely changed Pokemon in gen 6 but overall I think it's been a very positive experience after we got over the first few hurdles.

 

[BlackBloodz]

As for myself, I actually liked XY more especially after the tier settled with Aegislash getting banned for many reasons. Mainly, teambuilding was easier, less threats to worry about and enough slots to handle most of the meta.

With ORAS bringing many new megas and quite few threats with a wide variety they have as jpw234 mentioned above. Further more, the speed tier was quite decent and didn't require to have "faster mons" to some extent. On the other hand, ORAS feels a bit more "fun", with new Hidden Abilities getting released and the amount of Megas you can chose from is just fun to me.

ORAS is definitely not as Balanced as XY was, but it's still in its early stages. All in all, I think XY is better in general than ORAS, but I can see a bright future the current metagame has.

 

[Celticpride]

I really liked late XY OU, but early ORAS isn't too terrible exactly. Early XY was not too healthy, but ORAS dodged several of those elements off the bat (removal of Gene, SwagPlay, Deos, maybe Aegi). In terms of new Megas there were less completely borked ones introduced (Lucario, Kanga, Gengar vs Salamence) and that probably helps to speed up the meta getting healthy quicker. (looks like jpw234 covered this a little already)

The speed creep is very real, and goes under the radar more than it should. While they all have hard answers of varying degrees, it can be really hard for offense to deal with them while being difficult for balance to check them. I already talked about this in the no Mega ladder thread, but even something as simple to handle as Mega Sceptile can be impact teambuilding. I look through RMT a lot and even some of these really solidly built teams have an Aerodactyl weakness or have trouble with Mega Alakazam, and you can't really fix that easily without opening a hole up to something else. Traditionally to be really fast you either were weak (see Jolteon and Crobat), had to hold a Choice Scarf, or had to give up coverage for a speed boosting move. Now, something like Zam can outspeed nearly the whole meta, switch moves, and has free moveslots to beat certain checks (Taunt, Sub, HP Fire, Gleam). I really like to complain about this, sue me.

Also, Char-X is still very much a threat. The offensive DD sets are still really hard to handle and something like Mega Diancie doesn't really help, it takes upwards of 75% from Jolly +1 Flare Blitz. People are also sleeping on Mega Venusaur. It's pretty great in terms of building a defensive core around because it basically insures you are not Altaria weak. It does have its drawbacks but having a solid Altaria, Keldeo and Diancie counter in one slot is huge in terms of teambuilding. Mega Slowbro should also get more attention because it can afford to invest less in Defense and focus more in Special Attack/Defense.

I was one of those people that really liked post-Mawile XY, and ORAS is surprisingly close to that level of balance in my opinion. The match-up issue is more apparent, but that is something that we were probably going to have to deal with eventually because there are just more threats as the generations increase.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

As for myself, I actually liked XY more especially after the tier settled with Aegislash getting banned for many reasons. Mainly, teambuilding was easier, less threats to worry about and enough slots to handle most of the meta.

With ORAS bringing many new megas and quite few threats with a wide variety they have as jpw234 mentioned above. Further more, the speed tier was quite decent and didn't require to have "faster mons" to some extent. On the other hand, ORAS feels a bit more "fun", with new Hidden Abilities getting released and the amount of Megas you can chose from is just fun to me.

ORAS is definitely not as Balanced as XY was, but it's still in its early stages. All in all, I think XY is better in general than ORAS, but I can see a bright future the current metagame has.

Not sure that I agree with the notion that there were less threats to deal with in the post-Aegislash XY meta compared to before. Aegislash checked so many different pokemon that the pokemon that had a poor matchup against him were more rarely seen. Once Aegislash got kicked out the door, that was when scarcely seen powerhouses like Mega-Gardevoir, Mega-Medicham, Mega-Heracross, etc became more important to explicitly prepare for while teambuilding. Aegislash was sort of like "Slap it on your team, check half the metagame"

Right now I'd say the metagame leans offensive, at first when XY turned into ORAS stall was more viable because Mega-Sableye was all the rage and nobody really knew how to deal with it. Once people figured out that Mega-Sableye just isn't bulky enough and people learned to beat it, stall took a hit and really between the new ORAS threats of Mega-Metagross, Mega-Lopunny, Mega-Diancie and old threats like Keldeo, Mega-Gardevoir, Talonflame, Zard-X, Zard-Y, Landorus and Bisharp, it's flat out impossible to cover everything which makes for a very match-up based metagame. So I'm not a fan of the ORAS metagame right now. Too many different kinds of monsters, and you can only carry so many different weapons to battle. If you run into a monster you don't have the right weapon for, you're getting cleaned out.

 

[BlackBloodz]

Not sure that I agree with the notion that there were less threats to deal with in the post-Aegislash XY meta compared to before. Aegislash checked so many different pokemon that the pokemon that had a poor matchup against him were more rarely seen. Once Aegislash got kicked out the door, that was when scarcely seen powerhouses like Mega-Gardevoir, Mega-Medicham, Mega-Heracross, etc became more important to explicitly prepare for while teambuilding. Aegislash was sort of like "Slap it on your team, check half the metagame"

I meant there are more threats to handle in ORAS than post-Aegislash meta.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

ORAS has had some serious over-centralization issues, which is likely my least favorite aspect of it, as it stands. I feel there is still some degree of broken-checking-broken, but this has definitely seemed to improve as of late. For example, mega Diancie is an example of a mon that I feel could possibly be broken were it not for Megagross. It's very good as it stands, but megagross (a favorite to counter it) tends to hold it back, in my oppinion. Many wanted Megagross to remain just to keep fairies (like Diancie) in check.

However, something that I have found to be actually one of my favorite changes is the new movepool additions: most notably crunch gyarados, all the new knock off recipients, as well as some previously illegal combinations that the new move tutors made available. Unfortunately, Gamefreak doesn't seem to realize when enough is enough, and because of this, our beloved smog frog got the ban hammer. Over all, I'd say the X&Y meta was better, but the new moves have, in my oppinion, been a much welcome addition. For the most part.

 

[NinetyNineNo]

Tyrantrum got Rock Head, not Sheer Force fyi.

 

[BlazeLatias]

Honestly I'd say overall oras despite having a fair share of flaws is better then late xy was as xy took quite some time to really settle in while oras after mence and gren went the meta became more settled. Only real issues I can see with oras would be how matchup relient it is. Its just impossible to cover everything. aside from this oras seems a lot better then xy was but still has a few hurdles that need to be worked out.

 

[Starmei]

First of all I'd like to point out how much of an effect Leaf Guard Meganium has had on the meta, I think we should unban reshiram asap to deal with this threat

I agree with jpw, most noticable has definitely been the new mega evolutions, even though some don't see much or any use like Audino, Beedrill, etc. The same could be said about the XY megas. There are a lot of similarities between XY and ORAS for fairly obvious reasons and most good XY OU mons have been able to keep up their reputation in ORAS, Keldeo for example. Nothin' but a savage in both XY and ORAS.

Granted there have been changes, Pinsir in XY was just a god, but now in ORAS it's a rare sight. It's still a great mon to use but most prefer to stick to the cloud known as Altaria or the metalic destruction machine commoners refer to as metagross. People say that some of these XY megas 'took a bullet' to use bloodz' words, but imo they're still very good to use in ORAS but there's just a larger variety of megas to choose from.

I would also point out that despite, at the start of ORAS, most people said Gallade 'outclassed' or was much better than Medicham and was an incredible mon, I've hardly seen any recently and I've heard a lot of talk about MMedi > MGallade. I think this is quite interesting in terms of XY -> ORAS because in XY I was pretty terrified of Medicham, it pretty much got a kill whenever it came inside against a lot of teams and the answers for it were limited. Gallade was said to be a faster MMedicham with access to knock off and SD, but how often have you been swept by a Gallade? Exactly. I think MMedi is much more of a threat, primarily due to the sheer power of the HJK with very few switchins and moves like ZenHB to punish the Clefables for daring to attempt it. There is also Lopunny, the offense destroyer, which may also have shadowed these two in ORAS a little because it can freely hit ghost types, is much faster than the other two and has pretty unresisted stabs. MMedi has the ability to stomp on a lot of Lopunny 'switchins'

Threatwise I'd say Lando-I has become more problematic, in XY it was still a great mon to use but people seem to be having more trouble with it now.

I'd like to see people's opinions on underrated or underused (not the tier) megas so feel free to add one on at the end of your post ;]
Underrated Mega: Pidgeot

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Recreant
mega pidgeot n_n

I'll make a longer post later *yawn* really tired now.

 

[firehusky]

I'd also mention custap berry somewhere; during XY it was unavailable.

 

[thelandlordsmm]

Icicle Crash + Knock Off Weavile pls

EDIT: also Belly Drum + Knock Off (+ Aqua Jet) Azumarill

 

[UnicornDemon2]

I used to enjoy late XY OU - the period after Aegislash and Mega Mawile were banned. At the time, I thought the metagame was fairly balanced. Granted, there were a few Pokemon that could anally desecrate large portions of your team each time they switched in - these being such wall-breaking megas as M-Gardevoir, M-Medicham, M-Charizard X & Y, M-Pinsir, M-Heracross, M-Scizor, and M-Venasaur (this last one not really a wall-breaker, but extremely annoying nonetheless). At the time, however, there were only 8 or so of these preposterously powerful Mega evolutions. And I could handle 8 borderline-broken Pokemon. Even if I didn't have a safe switch into each of them, I could usually play around them with prediction or revenge kill them... to be honest, though, a couple of them such as Mega-Charizard Y couldn't be 'played around.' You either had a direct counter to Charizard - say Latias or Chansey - or something on your team was losing minimum 70% health each time it came in. But again, all of these broken ass megas had base speeds of ~100, give or take, with only a few, noticeably weaker ones with 115+ base stat speeds. Since you knew none would be able to hold a scarf, and only certain ones could boost their speed, it was possible to construct a team where each mega evolution was, at the very least, capable of being revenge killed.

Then came ORAS. A cornucopia of totally different yet collectively powerful mega evolutions was born. Unlike the last batch, the capacity to revenge kill some of these new megas wasn't as simple as slapping a scarf Garchomp on your team and calling it a day. Mega-Slowbro came with unfathomable bulk, and could only be dealt with through very specific counters. Mega-Sableye combined magic bounce with great bulk and a potent defensive typing with only one uncommon weakness. Again, only very specific counters, such as offensive fairy types, bulk up T-flame, or swords dance Gliscor would be able to deal with all of M-Sableye's sets. Unlike XY, these Megas required specialization in order to be checked.

Apart from this ORAS also completely threw out any sensible concept of a speed tier and handed out 110, and 135+ base speed stats out to mega evolutions like they were candy. The speed creep is very real and again makes it difficult to construct a team that could conceivably check or at the very least revenge kill all possible mega evolutions, let alone counter them.

I don't mean to be overly pessimistic. Some of the mega evos are pretty cool and really help to diversity the tier. After playing a fair amount on the very enjoyable No Mega ladder, though, I just feel like both the standard XY and ORAS ladder are pretty unreasonable.