thank you GMU, may God rest your soul. what a lad
OK so I today I want to look over this post by ShedMiddleFinga about Shell Smash and break it down, describing exactly why I think this argument is flawed.
1) Mons get full evs. I've heard that this "weakens" shell smash but anyone with any brains can see it really doesn't. If something can't tank power trip, it isn't gonna tank it after 252 evs. defense evs aren't gonna stop 1000 atk. they just aren't. If something CAN tank it, it would already have 252 evs in hp and defense anyway probably. But because the shell smash/belly drum mon has 252 evs, extreme speed/other priority usually does a pitiful amount of damage, almost always <50%. That means u can't really revenge kill it.
His first point, the introduction of maximized EVs.
"I've heard that this "weakens" shell smash but anyone with any brains can see it really doesn't." - This makes no sense, maximized EVs are quite obviously going to help defensive Pokemon survive attacks. This doesn't require discussion. Then. to say
"u can't really revenge kill it" is also false, since lots of priority users are able to revenge kill a Shell Smash user, provided Psychic Terrain isn't up:
-=
vs. Shell Smash Mega Mewtwo X
=-
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate
Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 570-672 (137 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate
Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 522-614 (125.4 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate
Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 153-180 (36.7 - 43.2%) & 252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 298-352 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-=
vs. Shell Smash Primal Groudon
=-
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate
Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 103-123 (25.4 - 30.4%) & 252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(No amount of EVs will allow
Diancie to kill it)
252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate
Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. -1 248 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 109-129 (27 - 32%) & 252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. -1 248 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 213-252 (52.8 - 62.5%)
-=
vs. Shell Smash Mega Gengar
=-
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate
Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 330-388 (101.8 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate
Diancie-Mega Fake Out vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 76-90 (23.4 - 27.7%) & 252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 150-177 (46.2 - 54.6%)
252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate
Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 346-408 (106.7 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-=
vs. Shell Smash Mega Rayquaza
=-
252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate
Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 159-187 (38.4 - 45.1%) & 252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 313-369 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate
Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 522-614 (126 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate
Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 796-940 (192.2 - 227%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-=
vs. Shell Smash Zekrom
=-
(No amount of EVs will allow
Rayquaza to kill it)
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate
Diancie-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zekrom: 156-186 (38.6 - 46%) &
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zekrom: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%)
252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate
Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zekrom: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) & 252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zekrom: 354-416 (87.6 - 102.9%)
Maxed EVs allowed only 3 of these instances to become a 2HKO rather than a 3HKO (Diancie vs Gengar, Kyurem vs Groudon and Rayquaza vs Groudon). To say you can't revenge kill it is not really true, is it?
2) Priority Attacks is weakened. This happened in several different ways. First, gale wings was nerfed. For me that means no more d-ascent, which could normally take out 90% on most mons. This leaves espeed. As you guys know, ate was nerfed from gen 6 and mons have more defense, and the damage usually isn't sufficient to kill. I've seen damage as low as 30% taken on an espeed. not even enough to kill drummers. In addition, priority has a general bad time of it because of new abilities like queenly majesty phazing them out and making them far less common. Even if you do happen to have one, it doesnt matter much because the opponent will usually have dazzling or terrain up. So basically this check, which SINGLEHANDEDLY put smash in its place in gen 6, doesn't really exist.
Admittedly Dazzling and all the other anti-priority abilities do put a hamper on priority attacks, but some of the ways you attempt to brush away priority as a method of checking set-up is odd. For instance:
"..and the damage usually isn't sufficient to kill." - A very vague statement disproved by my earlier calculations. Also it's not fair to assume Psychic Terrain or a priority-blocking ability is always active.
3) Prankster was nerfed. This means no more encore on dark types. That REALLY HURTS. that was another of my go-to stops for setup in gen 6. Even without spectral thief/haze the extra turns were still enough to let me get around the threat. well that doesn't really work anymore. D-Bond was nerfed. As someone who doesn't use d-bond too much I'm not at liberty to say much here, except I imagine it can be annoying, especially without the threat of encore looming. Topsy turvy can't manage stuff anymore. This is pretty big. Topsy turvy was a big hit to setup and you can't really use it anymore because of targeting. And because you can't put any pressure at all on smashers they are free to batter away at you till they stall recover/ outpredict your switch and smash= u lose another mon. and once they stall out recover (which they will if they made the mon halfway decently) you most likely lose your whole team. Anyway you have to stay in to keep the "threat" of haze alive while your opponent either kills you or they switch and the momentum goes to the opponent.
Prankster not affecting Dark-types is near insignificant. The more viable Shell Smashers aren't even of the type. No, this doesn't really hurt, as you put it. Prankster is still a viable way of containing Shell Smash. Also, to then say that
"Topsy turvy can't manage stuff anymore" is also wrong since the amount of Pokemon it truly cannot manage now is
very small. They're not free to "batter away at you till they stall recover/ outpredict your switch and smash" because they're at -2 Atk, SpA and Spe after a Topsy-Turvy? What kind of mon is capable of forcing so many Recovers at -2? This entire paragraph is grossly exaggerated.
4) Unaware isn't actually that good. People seem to think unaware is some magic answer but it really isn't. First off smashers are usually powerful enough to 2 hit or 3 hit (2 hit especially if it's a subpar wall like gyarados) So switching in often ISN'T an option. That means you lose 1 more mon. This is especially true if there is either hazards up, or your wall has taken ANY previous damage. It's important to note that without any passive healing it's almost impossible to maintain a wall at 100% (you can't run leftovers because spore) so you really have to run multiple walls. One for actually walling stuff, and one for stopping stuff like shell smash. Along with the fact that these walls have pretty short lifespans in general, there are new moves like sunsteel and moongeist to give them grief. This rules out notable walls such as Tina, audino, and solgaleo, and reduces many to subpar options like gyarados. To really hammer in just how bad this is, this is damage calc of a popular belly drum set vs gyarados.
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados-Mega: 156-186 (39.5 - 47.2%) -- approx. 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So, Gyarados canț switch in which means often an even 1-1 trade. Even with preparation you still are 1-1. Thats friggin terrible. pdon has now broken even through no demonstration of skill on 1 move. If you make the asinine assumption that you can switch in because everyone knows that its super easy to keep weak ass walls like gyara at 100%, there is still the chance that its running bolt strike. Yes groudon has a lot of attack, but everything that smashes has around 170+ anyway so i don't see it as a big factor. Yes bonemerang is unresisted, but these mons tend to have 3 coverage moves, it isn't hard to find a unresisting move. It's true that this is a stab move but lots of potential drummers (mmx/ray/etc) have stab unresisted and mmx has super effective stab (byi gyara). Also it's important to take in account that bonemerang is by no means some 150 power base move. It has 100 BP, and that isn't that powerful. Lots of moves have the capability to do more than that. This is my most important point: It is important to rmember that this is actually a pokemon battle, not a damage calculator were everything starts off at 100% and stays that way. It is so so so so so so so so so so so easy to deal 20% to a mon in a battle and have it go unhealed. Remember u-turn is super effective. I am tired of people telling me to run gyarados on the grounds that it theoretically checks shell smash. What I'm trying to say is that unaware doesn't work because it's a bad ability that doesn't do much to strengthen a mons ability to switch in/heal, it's a bad ability because two very common moves check it, and it's a bad ability because the niche answers (gyarados) that people purport can stop shell smash really can't. And even if it could check it, you have to stay in to heal while the momentum goes to the opponent
This one's my favorite. "Unaware is bad. To support this I'll post a calc of a wall getting 3HKO'd then a gigantic wall of bold to prove I'm right". Unaware is definitely viable, IDK where you get off saying it isn't.
"First off smashers are usually powerful enough to 2 hit or 3 hit (2 hit especially if it's a subpar wall like gyarados) So switching in often ISN'T an option." Switching in definitely is an option because walls tend to have recovery moves. Which recovers your HP. When used.
"..it's almost impossible to maintain a wall at 100% (you can't run leftovers because spore) so you really have to run multiple walls." This is already the meta, this isn't a negative. Then you post your calc of a Gyarados getting 3HKO'd by an attack, as if that proves it can't switch in? Do your Gyarados sets not have recovery? What are you trying to say?
The majority of the bolded paragraph is a bunch of fluff that has no meaning, but the end part has some value:
"..because it's a bad ability that doesn't do much to strengthen a mons ability to switch in/heal" - It's easier to switch into a +0 hit than a +2 hit, this is false, "
..it's a bad ability because two very common moves check it.." - Sunsteel / Moongeist are by no means reliable ways to muscle past Unaware. A +2 unSTAB Sunsteel vs a Zygarde for instance does nothing, "
..because the niche answers (gyarados) that people purport can stop shell smash really can't." This statement is backed up by a calc of Gyarados getting 3HKO'd, so you can forget this as well.
5) Chansey didn't really get nerfed in any big way but it is very difficult to beat smashers because some have unburden and you usually have to sacrifice a mon anyway to get chansey in. Also, because of defense debuffs, many can outdamage or kill chansey anyway. In my opinion, chansey is just worth more than smashers and I don't regard that as a very even trade. So basically when looking at chansey, you're often looking at best a 1-1 +heavy damage on one of your most valuble mons and at worst a 6 mon sweep.
I don't have much to say against this, it's pretty valid. Moving on..
Because I know you guys like hard examples ima give u some.
Player A has a MMX and Player B has team made to defeat smash and a regen Zygarde out at 20%
MMX uses simple shell smash and zygarde switches to fur coat tina
MMX uses stored power
Tina dies
Regi switches in and hazes
Regi dies to close combat.
MMX has taken 0 damage and killed 2 mons. Its sash is unbroken.
lets imagine that they switched into a different check to MMX, something you would never normally do if you donț already know mmx is simple. That mon is unaware zygarde. Now usually with smash teams, terrain is usually up
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Unaware Zygarde-Complete in Psychic Terrain: 589-694 (92.6 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
zygarde is in all probability dead given the difficulty of keeping mons at 100%.
Ok kids! that didnt work so lets try gyarados. That will work for sure!
252+ Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 242 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados-Mega: 390-462 (99.7 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Rip gyarados is dead now.
How about chansey?
+4 252- SpA Mewtwo-Mega-X Stored Power (260 BP) vs. -2 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X in Psychic Terrain: 3079-3624 (431.2 - 507.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Today is not ur lucky day. Rip chansey (yes i made it the correct HP, but i did ignore eviolite cuz at 500% who cares) even if chan wins the speed tie it dies cuz sash!
You send out aerilate Ray, but since psychic terrain is gay and terrain extender exists, ray is now an endangered species
Notice I have taken 1 mon. Matched it up against ALMOST EVERY SINGLE COUNTER NAMED and won with 3! moves.
That is one mon. The team built specifically for checking Bullshit is now gone because of ONE switch. Talk about a stakeout that continues until everything is dead.
Lets imagine regi has destiny bond and i know that.
Regi used destiny bond!
Mewtwo X used Encore!
rip regi.
Even if regi uses haze, he still dies to subsequent close combats.
If anyone who says that shell smash has checks stopped to think for 5 seconds, they would realize it really doesnt. I can overcome every single damn wall you name with a smasher that would take only a few seconds to think up. I just proved that by taking out a whole team that would have annhilated smash in gen 6. Im not sure why I have to spell it out but shell smash and drum really need to go.
I know this is a hypothetical situation but I have seen the mon described used under conditions similar to this with the same basic results.
TL;DR: Let's invent extremely ideal conditions in which a Pokemon is able to sweep a damaged team with little set-up checks with the perfect moves.
So to conclude, every possible check to smash/drum has been crippled and this has created a perfect storm in which a centralizing move can be slapped on to most anything and can still be expected to win. Smash comes with no warning, and is not perdictable. Before the ev limit was lifted it was possible to spectral every deoxys you saw and get away with it, but now we have spectral dealing ~20% to possible smashers and that is just not enough to put any pressure on them, especially since these prospective smashers have 3 attacking moves to choose from while they batter away at you. Any of the ways I listed for dealing with smashers either ends up in your mon dead or momentum going to the opponent (except for chansey) how is that ok? Basically, it's far too hard to deal with, and we shouldn't have to deal with it anyway. Thanks for your time and please please please ban shell smash and/or belly drum.
In conclusion: "
So to conclude, every possible check to smash/drum has been crippled" This is not true, as I've shown earlier. "
..but now we have spectral dealing ~20% to possible smashers and that is just not enough to put any pressure on them, especially since these prospective smashers have 3 attacking moves to choose from while they batter away at you." They're not going to be hurting at +0 Attack. Spectral Thief at +2 is going to be dealing more than just 20%. This is adequate pressure. Why have you failed to mention this? "
Any of the ways I listed for dealing with smashers either ends up in your mon dead or momentum going to the opponent (except for chansey)" Most of the good ways of checking set-up you've failed to mention or have stated are bad with little to no or just false evidence.
(Also I like how the single best thing to happened surrounding Shell Smash [Dazzling / Queenly Majesty being introduced] wasn't the main focus of your post...)
TL;DR: Focus on PDon / Stakeout, they're actual pressing threats in the metagame.