Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk II

[Dogfish44]

This is the main thread for communication with Council Members outside of IRC. This is the spiritual successor to the old State of the Game, and is accessible to any player.

Ground Rules:

• Be respectful. Posts that are found insulting, demeaning, or otherwise fail to contribute to a respectful dialog will be deleted. Repeat offenders WILL be infracted.
• Minimise the amount of time spent off-topic. If there are several active proposals, it would help if those proposals were concluded.
• Before bringing up an issue, please look through the rest of the thread to make sure that your suggestion hasn't been made earlier or your issue has not already been addressed. Also ensure that you are not simply asking a question - we have a Simple Question, Simple Answer thread or the IRC for that.

The council is also subject to rules and restrictions, as a part of the ASB Council Constitution. This constitution is prone to amendments, and is stored below.

Constitution

The aim of the Anime Style Battling Council is to rationally, quickly and efficiently judge and implement proposed for ASB by the larger ASB Community. It aims to build upon, not revert, the existing spirit of ASB by approving proposals that strengthens the mechanics of the game. The ASB Council recognises that changes are made only to fix an existing flaw in existing mechanics, or to make incremental improvements by way of small inclusions.

CHAPTER I: Selecting the Council

1. All council members are selected by a vote by the eligible ASB community, and
   • The eligible ASB community is defined as the users who have had no less than one month experience in ASB.
   • The vote is private, and will be sent to a standing member on the council via PM.
   • This voting will take place every six months, which will be the term of a council, and there are no restrictions on any user serving on consecutive councils.
   • The seven people who have achieved the most amount of votes from the community will be selected to be seated on the council.
2. There will be seven council members elected, and
   • They may step down voluntarily at any point during their term.
   • If at any time there are less than seven active users in the council, the council will decide among themselves via a vote who the replacement user will be, and the decision will be carried out in an efficient and timely manner.
3. Council members have a moderated but public social group that consists of the seven council members.
4. At any time, a member of the council may call a vote of no confidence (or of inactivity) regarding a fellow council member, and the active members of the council will engage a private vote regarding the member’s involvement in the council, and if only if there are no votes cast for keeping the council member, that user is ejected from the council. The period of inactivity must be a minimum of 2 weeks without doing anything ASB related.

CHAPTER II: System Changes

1. If a proposed change to the ASB system gains considerable support, be it on IRC or the Feedback thread, the council may make a decision on its implementation, under the following guidelines:
   • The proposal must be at least a week old before the council begins council discussion and voting on the proposal, so as to give all users a chance to respond to the proposal.
   • After the time has passed and the community response to the proposed change is still positive, the council may begin private discussion and voting process.
   • If the vote passes, the change is considered implemented in any way the council decrees, so long as there is no veto present from a relevant power.
2. Proposals that lie within the council’s control include changes to specific moves, abilities, items, minor changes to game mechanics, and any major change to the game’s mechanics must also obtain a public approval from Deck Knight, such major proposals including but not limited to,
   • Changes to how damage is calculated, or to the concept of the battle system as a whole.
   • Inclusion of a mechanic that lies outside of the existing spirit and rule-set of ASB.
3. In cases where a motion has been passed for a decision that directly alters or amends powers given to the ASB Council, that is to say anything not initially agreed upon as to their role and power, a decision towards the motion regarding the powers granted to the ASB Council must be dictated by Deck Knight, the only authority greater than the ASB Council and thus outside the conflict of interest.
4. Voting takes place through the following process:
   • Satisfying guidelines for a proposal, a member of the council creates two new threads in the Council Social Group (ASB council plans) for the proposal, one titled DISCUSSION and the other VOTING, outlining the proposal in the Original Post of both threads, in the Council Social Group.
   • The council may discuss among themselves on IRC (#ASBCouncil) or on the discussion thread in the Council Social Group, at all times taking into account feedback from non-Council members.
   • The council will in due time publicly vote in the voting thread created for that proposal.
   • If the proposed change receives a majority vote from the council, it is considered implemented and the change announced in all relevant areas.

CHAPTER III: Regarding Other Entities

1. The Gym committee and the Roleplay committee hold complete sovereignty from the ASB Council; however, if either committee is overly inactive or otherwise incompetent, the council may take any actions deemed necessary to expedite the duties of the committee, be it through selecting replacements or by taking charge of the committee entirely.
2. Deck Knight holds ultimate veto power over any action that the Council takes, and continues to operate as Word of God.

Now then, as for the actual proposal of ideas. When you have an idea, you'll want to post it. Give it a short name, and describe the proposal concisely. An example could be:

[box]Aqua Ring

I believe that Aqua Ring is underpowered at the moment. I propose that we make the duration infinite.[/box]

That is it. Any user can make a proposal, and the proposal can be either be vague (There is something wrong with X, can we please fix it somehow?), an open discussion (I believe that we can fix Y with either A or B, can we discuss?) or a full proposal (I think that we should implement Z).

Now then, for those who wish to comment on the proposal. If you wish to comment, first quote the suggestion - and put your thoughts below it. Feel free to comment on any proposal that has not been moved to discussion yet - your comments are valuable in helping council members figure out what should move to discussion.

A council member can open discussion on the topic if they feel it is warranted - the council member will post a link to this new discussion in a post in feedback. In addition, a council member can instantly move a proposal to discussion, even if it hasn't been commented upon by any other user. This also means a council member can create a discussion thread without going through feedback, if they so desire.

Please note that when a proposal is moved through, the discussion might not inherently focus on that single proposal, but the entire aspect

If an idea ever has a discussion thread created for it, it will go through the voting process.

If an idea is rejected by the community and fails to attract any support from a council member, then a council member may apply a "Veto" to the proposal - this means the proposal should no longer be discussed in the feedback thread until the end of the council term. A council member's veto can be overturned by another council member.

Current Council Members:
Texas Cloverleaf
Birkal
Pwnemon
Rediamond
Its_A_Random
Dogfish44
zarator

Roleplay Committee:
Engineer Pikachu
Frosty
Rediamond

Gym Committee:
Pwnemon
MK Ultra
Texas Cloverleaf

Previous Threads
ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk I

 

[Stratos]

so these are the proposals i scrounged up out of the old thread that weren't addressed, i'll be making discussion threads for some of them probably

Supporting the global audit of the DAT for clarification and enforcing.removal of tidbits/rules.

So, I'm looking for feedback. Lots of it.

I'm worried that I'm missing tons of details/stuff, which is partially why I am asking for feedback, and what the community thinks.

Yes I realize people will have reservations on the idea, or that fact that I'm suggesting it, or that we won't have enough refs: I know. This is an idea, and I want to see if it is possible.

---

Hiya. I'm here to propose the ASB Premier League.

As some of you may know, there's a trend for the tiers in the Smogon Metagames forum to have Premier Leagues. I'm suggesting ASB have the same.

If you don't know, these things are when a group of teams play each other in a variety of tiers. Here's an example from the UUPL:



Naturally, we do not have 'DPP ASB' or similar concepts, but we have an even larger variety of possibilities, from the # of Pokémon, to the arenas, to even more basic rules, like Substitutions and Items. There is an insane amount of combinations possible.

Remember, this is a idea. At the will of the community, or the mods, things can change. What is being proposed here may be completely different to what will actually be played.

I am proposing to run an ASBPL, where 6 or so teams would fight it out, SPL-style. The community would have a large (if not complete) portion in picking the 'metagames' to be played, aside the standard Singles/Doubles/Triples lineup.

Rewards:
The normal rewards for the battles would pass over to the tournament battles, unless approval for a different setup.

'Battle Slots'
(what 'tiers' get played)
Up to the community, I am certain that the tour would be better accepted by the community if the community picked the tournament details

After some discussion on IRC regarding Trace revealed that some people are still confused about how Can be Activated abilities work, and when we have abilities like Intimidate and Flash Fire being put in the same category even though there are significant differences in how they work and the fact that one has an ability-based command and the other doesn't ... we need to rework the ability category system.

The way I see it, we have six categories of ability:

1. Traits (Defeatist, Slow Start and Truant)
2. Always active or conditionally active abilities that are not traits (Flash Fire, Guts, Levitate ...)
3. Abilities that cause something to happen when the pokemon is sent out and can have this effect be caused again by spending an action and some energy (Drought, Intimidate, Trace ...)
4. Abilities with an effect that is tied to a command but does not automatically activate when the pokemon is sent out; such abilities sometimes but not always have additional ongoing effects like those of abilities in category 2 (Cloud Nine, Magnet Pull, Rebound ...)
5. Abilities with an ongoing effect that can be turned on or off; currently the category names Can be Enabled and Can be Disabled imply whether the default is on or off (Illuminate, Normalize, Sheer Force ...)
6. Abilities with two possible ongoing effects that the pokemon can switch between (Effect Spore, Poison Point, Poison Touch ...)

Currently, these categories are named as follows:

1. Trait
2. Innate
3. Innate or Can be Activated
4. Innate or Can be Activated
5. Can be Enabled or Can be Disabled
6. Can be Disabled (there are no examples of Can be Enabled abilities in this category)

The category description of Innate suggests that only abilities in category 2 in my list should be classed as Innate, while the category description of Can be Activated suggests that only one or two abilities in category 4 in my list should be classed as Can be Activated. In other words, most abilities in categories 3 and 4 are being shoehorned into categories that they don't properly fit into. Furthermore, it is weird that an ability in a category called Can be Disabled may actually have effects if it is disabled - this is more like switching the ability's effect from one thing to another rather than turning off the ability.

Therefore, I would like to propose the following ability category naming system and descriptions based on the categories of ability that I have established:

1. Trait: This ability is always in effect as a natural part of the Pokemon, even in matches where no ability is specified or in matches where one ability other than this ability is specified.
2. Passive: This ability is always in effect except in matches where no ability is specified or in matches where one ability other than this ability is specified. The ability's effect may always be active or it may be active only under certain circumstances.
3. Auto-activate: This ability's effect happens immediately when the Pokemon is sent out. By spending an action and a certain amount of energy, the Pokemon can trigger this ability's effect again later in the battle.
4. At-will activation: This ability has an effect that can only be activated by spending an action and a certain amount of energy. Abilities in this category may have other effects that work like the effects of Passive abilities.
5. At-will suppression: This ability can be switched on or off by the Pokemon. While the ability is on, its effect works like the effects of Passive abilities; while it is off, it has no effect whatsoever. Abilities in this category specify whether they are on or off by default, but the Pokemon may switch the ability on or off when it is sent out or at the start of any round in which its trainer is ordering first. Switching the ability on or off does not take up an action or cost any energy.
6. Two-effect: This ability has two possible effects that the Pokemon can choose between. Whichever effect is chosen works like the effects of Passive abilities. One effect is specified as the default, but the Pokemon may switch between effects when it is sent out or at the start of any round in which its trainer is ordering first. Switching between effects does not take up an action or cost any energy.

Thoughts guys?

All right... a new council coming up, so I figure I might as well post this request:

Can something be done to improve the Referee Payment System? Currently, it doesn't truely take into account battles that are dragged on, like with two Poke'mon who don't have any real way of attacking (resorting to Toxic Stall), requiring more effort on the Ref to oversee more rounds.

Oh, and in the interest of not having a similar disaster like last time, I will try to avoid participating the discussion.

Seeking Discussion

Shift.

It is a command.

It does this:
[BOX]Shift: A Pokemon may use the Shift command on an adjacent allied Pokemon in any multi-battle format. Shift switches the position of the Pokemon using it and its target without interfering with the target's actions. Shift cannot fail due to Taunt, cannot be Disabled, cannot be Encored, and cannot be interacted with by any other move that would otherwise prevent it from taking place.

Command Type: Universal | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring[/BOX]
Never seen it before? Well, you are not alone, as this thing—a command that was never in the original DAT—Was never even remotely discussed in any SotG, nor in this thread at all, until now. Implemented out of the blue, it is very much a powerful dick move that can fuck up an entire round's worth of actions in multiples, especially since any decent player would have a better thing to sub for. Yet this is based on the ingame triples command. It is basically a command very much superior to the move counterpart: Ally Switch, whose only niche over Shift is the increased priority. So what is the big deal about it? Well, apart from the fact that not even Deck knew that this was a thing until I mentioned it on IRC, but to put it simply, for the sake of balance in battles & most roleplays like TLR & ASB Raid Zone, I want this thing to be only usable in battles where positioning is on, since those battles tend to resemble in-game more than usual, & with shift being a command for ingame triples, this seems appropriate.

Proposed Shift
[BOX]Shift: A Pokemon may use the Shift command on an adjacent allied Pokemon in any multi-battle format where positioning is on. Shift switches the position of the Pokemon using it and its target without interfering with the target's actions. Shift cannot fail due to Taunt, cannot be Disabled, cannot be Encored, and cannot be interacted with by any other move that would otherwise prevent it from taking place.

Command Type: Universal | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring[/BOX]
We could always remove Shift too, but idk. The point is, allowing this in Positioning off matches when we have shit like Bodyblock, Take Cover, & Ally Switch, & other roleplays like TLR that do not have positioning, is just a balance issue imo. Keep it to positioning on matches, like it was supposed to be intended to be used in.

Now then... Who wants to shoot me down on this?

edit: oh i forgot aqua ring somehow but that one too

 

[akela]

I remember a discussion occurring on IRC about making every move mean something. Not having a move be completely inferior to another, or having a bunch of "pallet swaps" of moves.

Withdraw: The Pokemon withdraws into its shell, which glows a bright crimson, increasing its defense one (1) stage. This move locks its changed stat for the round within which it was used.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Water | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

This is Withdraw. It is little more than a Defense Curl pallet swap, except Defense Curl also boosts the damage of Rollout and Ice Ball. Harden acts as an inferior Iron Defense, what with it causing 10% recoil instead of 25% recoil.

I suggest we give it a unique effect, or at least an effect to set it apart from Defense Curl and Harden, such that someone might use it over another defense boosting move. My current idea would reduce all incoming damage that action to 0, should its defense stage be 0.

 

[Objection]

The following discussion threads have been created:

• Ability Categories
• Aqua Ring
• Shift
• Withdraw

 

[Destiny Warrior]

This is Rollout.

Rollout: The Pokemon rolls into a tight ball and repeatedly rams itself into the foe, adding three (3) more Base Attack Power and costing one (1) more energy each time. The initial Attack Power is raised to 8 if the Pokemon used Defense Curl earlier in the match. Rollout can be used up to 5 times before it resets to its original Base Attack Power. If Rollout misses, is disengaged, or is blocked, both its Base Attack Power and Energy Cost reset to the original level. Rollout does not incur the normal Consecutive Attacks penalty.

Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 5 + 1 each Consecutive Use | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Rock | Priority: 0 | CT: Set

And this is Metronome.

Metronome: Increases the Base Attack Power dealt by consecutive uses of attacks after their first use by one (1) and one (1) more for each additional use up to a maximum of ten (10) uses. (Ex. An attack used twice has +2 BAP, thrice +3, etc.) Attacks used consecutively incur only half (0.5x) the consecutive move use energy cost.

This is more of a clarification request, though it will probably end up needing an official ruling.

Metronome says that it halfs the Consecutive Move Energy Use Energy Cost, while Rollout says that it does not incur consecutive use penalty, and instead just adds +1 EN each time it is used.

Is the consecutive energy cost for using Rollout while using Metronome +1 EN or 0.25 EN? If we're really pedantic about it, it is +1, though the Rollout consecutive usage cost is a form of energy penalty as well. At the same time, it might just be a case of bad wording. I believe a clarification is in order.

 

[Gerard]

"Rollout does not incur the normal Consecutive Attacks penalty."

I would say this means that Metronomes second effect doesn't apply here because the consecutive attack penalty doesn't apply to Rollout and co.

 

[Birkal]

I definitely agree with Eternal Drifter that Referee Payment System should be improved. Referees are the heartbeat of ASB; without them, we wouldn't operate. The current system is geared towards offensive battles and doesn't reward more defensive ones. Furthermore, referees get paid significantly less than battlers. While the value of UC goes a little ways in alleviating this, a battler can use spoils to buy anything that UC could give them. This system is overall pretty backwards, and I think it'd be valuable for us to reward referees further for the hard work they do.

Seeking discussion.

 

[ZhengTann]

Concerning Rollout and Metronome's interaction: If Rollout incurs a +1 EN penalty per consecutive usage, while Metronome halves consecutive EN penalty, I believe Metronome Rollout incurs +0.5 EN penalty if used consecutively. That said, it is kinda weird, the wording.

ED's Referee Payout System revisited: Having stood by a per action payout system during last discussion, facing the opposition down, I can't believe I'm saying this, but No discussion needed, not now. As much as we referees think we are underpaid, once we start taking a new, more lucrative payout system for granted, we'll restart the "underpaid referee under the current system" cycle all over again. Not to mention the merchandise prices will have to be inflated to reflect the value of our currency. So no, I have no faith that this discussion will go anywhere, and I am resigned to just not let it happen - better that we keep our emotions in check than start calling each other names simply because Shuckle versus Audino deserves more for referees than Cyclohm versus Colossoil. We could just remove the cap for melees and brawls, since a 6v6 is still a 6v6 no matter it is Triples or Brawl.

 

[Dogfish44]

I'd like to bring up Encumbrance now. A while ago, the idea of consumable items no longer causing encumbrance once activated once was floated around, and I'm open to discussion on the matter. Acrobatics is the primary move to look at here I believe?

 

[Stratos]

ED's Referee Payout System revisited: So no, I have no faith that this discussion will go anywhere, and I am resigned to just not let it happen - better that we keep our emotions in check than start calling each other names simply because Shuckle versus Audino deserves more for referees than Cyclohm versus Colossoil.

let's not forget that all actions aren't created equal. I think we can all agree that there are two things that make reffing tedious: rolls and calcs. In a Shuckle vs Audino, you'll be seeing a lot of rounds that are like: Chill ~ gyro ball ~ chill, Chill ~ Recover ~ Flamethrower. That's what, three rolls, two calcs? It would literally take me one minute to ref that round. That's why Triples are so much per round: heat wave in itself is a nine-roll, three-calc move.

However, what we discussed on IRC the other day, related to counters, I do want to bring up. We introduced the KO Bonus to encourage reffing of longer matches. But we're doing shit-all to encourage players to actually PLAY longer matches. When it comes to training Pokemon, shorter matches are, beyond compare, the way to go. We need some way, IMO, to encourage longer matches to be played, so we can get rid of the incongruity between refs and players in this circumstance. Refs get paid more for longer matches, players get paid more for shorter matches, and players make the matches—that's why refs think they're underpaid.

My proposal would be to scale KO rewards to match size—so each KO counts for more than 1 KOC with bigger matches. But i'm going to wait and let someone else put up a counters thread if they want.

But, i'm gonna be making a thread for DF's proposal now, because flying gem acro not working is kinda weird

 

[LouisCyphre]

But we're doing shit-all to encourage players to actually PLAY longer matches.

More MC per mon for longer matches. Boom, done.

I'm not mentioning specifics, and this is a tangent, but keep it in mind! Figure I might as well light my torch now so we can burn that bridge when we get to it.

 

[Elevator Music]

mibbit logs are shit sorry

19:52 elevator_music oh
19:52 elevator_music can we clarify
19:52 Flamestrike actually i guess technically it is in line with aqua ring and co
19:52 elevator_music exactly what razor wind can deflect
19:52 Flamestrike well sort of
19:52 IAR recoveries are defined as moves that exclusively recover health
19:53 IAR !publicmove razor wind
19:53 Onion_Bubs Razor Wind: The Pokemon immediately summons a whirlwind around it and unleashes it on the opponent at the end of its action. The whirlwind can break any trapping moves, and deflect or nullify any attacks with 4 or less initial Base Attack Power (e.g. before ability effects). The sharpness of the wind blade makes the attack more likely to result in a critical
19:53 Onion_Bubs hit. This move targets up to three (3) adjacent opponents in a multi-battle.
19:53 Onion_Bubs Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: Defensive Whirlwind: 1, Hit: -1 | CT: Passive
19:53 IAR that seems defined enough... -.-'
19:53 elevator_music its not
19:53 elevator_music is leech seed deflected?
19:53 SubwayJ Are Non-Attacking moves covered in that?
19:53 elevator_music (hint, i've been forced to ref it both ways)
19:53 IAR "any attacks with 4 or less initial Base Attack Power (e.g. before ability effects)"
19:54 IAR leech seed is not exactly an attack though
19:54 elevator_music "its in the attack list"
19:54 elevator_music v__v
19:54 SubwayJ I think the confusion is because some people call them "Moves" and others "Attacks"
19:55 elevator_music that's exactly the confusion haha
19:55 IAR then there is the orcinus solution
19:55 elevator_music i dont even disagree (i personally think it shouldnt be included?) but idk
19:55 IAR "THEY ARE ALL THE SAME FUCKING THING"
19:55 Flamestrike the problem is that there's some non-attacking moves that it makes sense to deflect (like leech seed) and some that it doesn't (like taunt)
19:55 SubwayJ Then Ragequit for a week
19:55 SubwayJ And come back to ASB
19:56 SubwayJ And get banned
19:56 SubwayJ And then start the cycle again
19:56 Pwnemon the orcinus solution was
19:56 Flamestrike ugh em i don't know what to do against deadfox
19:56 Pwnemon commands are no different from attacks
19:56 Pwnemon which is: true
19:56 Flamestrike pyroak is so dumb
19:56 *** King_Serperior quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
19:56 elevator_music yea
19:56 Flamestrike -_-'
19:56 SubwayJ bbl ASB
19:56 *** SubwayJ quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
19:56 elevator_music anyways i dont care what way its resolved but itd be cool if it was
19:57 IAR ...

Can we clarify exactly what is deflected by Razor Wind and what isn't? Like I said, I don't care either way, but I know there are multiple viewpoints on what it deflects so imo that should be resolved somehow.

 

[Objection]

Re: More counters for larger battles

If we are going to increase anything for larger battles, it has to be KOC. This way, there is more incentive not just to participate but to actually win those battles. After some discussion in #capasb, the best idea I saw put forward was making each KO in any battle of size 4v4 and above with a singles, doubles or triples format be worth 2 KOC instead of 1.

--------------------------------

The same rules for new Pokemon apply from the Registration Thread: All Moves up to Level 25 from Every Generation, 5 Egg Moves from any generation ...

Pokemon without Egg Moves and Move Selection: If your starting Pokemon has no Egg Moves to select from, you may select any 5 attacks from Move Tutors and Special Giveaways from any generation. If this Pokemon also does not have any Move Tutors or Special giveaways, you may select any 5 TM moves from any generation.

With these rules, Staryu gets shafted. It only has 3 egg moves available to it, and because it gets egg moves it is not eligible for tutor moves. Right now, it's only Staryu, but what if Gen 6 brings a new mon that gets hardly any egg moves? After all, gen 5 gave us Frillish, which only has 6 egg moves, one of which is a pre-level-25 move already, so Frillish was pretty close to being shafted too.

Proposal: Change the above rule to the following:

[box]Pokemon with few or no Egg Moves and Move Selection: If your starting Pokemon has fewer than 5 Egg Moves to select from (not including moves the Pokemon gets at or below level 25), you may select a number of attacks from Move Tutors and Special Giveaways equal to (5 - number of Egg Moves available). For example, a Pokemon that only has 3 Egg Moves starts with its 3 Egg Moves plus 2 moves from Move Tutors and Special Giveaways. If this Pokemon does not have enough Move Tutors or Special Giveaways to make up for the Egg Move deficit, you may select any remaining moves from TMs of any generation. Note: you cannot choose to pick fewer Egg Moves than available to get these Move Tutors and Special Giveaways (and TMs if applicable), and if a Pokemon qualifies for these moves, it must get all of its Egg Moves first.[/box]

 

[akela]

Mega Punch: The Pokémon’s fist becomes surrounded by a white glow, and it punches the opponent with great force.
Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 85% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring

Wow, Mega Punch sucks. I mean it really, really sucks. Not even Rotom-Vacuum could out suck it.

Support for how much Mega Punch Sucks

For perspective, here are the 3 elemental Punches:

Fire Punch: The Pokémon’s fist becomes surrounded by flames as it punches the foe. It has a chance to burn.
Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 10% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fire | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

Ice Punch: The Pokemon's fist flies towards the opponent, while being coated in layers of ice cold enough to freeze the opponent solid.
Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 10% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Ice | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

ThunderPunch: The Pokemon’s fist glows yellow and sparks come off of it, then the user punches the opponent. It also has a chance to paralyze the opponent.
Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 10% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Electric | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

Those 3 moves have the same BAP and the same Energy Cost as Mega Punch. Where they differ are the fact that the elemental punches have effect chances, Combination Type of Elemental, and 100% Accuracy.

Mega Punch is outclassed even by Pound:

Pound: The Pokemon strikes the opponent hard with an appendage. If combined with a "Punch" attack (attacks that recieve a boost from Iron Fist), the Base Attack Power of the "Punch" attack is multiplied by one and a half (1.5x). [e.g. Pound + Fire Punch has a combination power of 4 + (8 *1.5) = 16.]

Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring

Same BAP as an Elemental Punch combo'd with Mega Punch, but no accuracy reduction and lower Energy Cost.

I propose we give a reason to use Mega Punch. A reason to include it in Movepools beyond the CC boost for maxed movepools.

My proposal is rather minor, focusing on the combination of Mega Punch with other "Punch" moves.

Mega Punch: The Pokémon’s fist becomes surrounded by a white glow, and it punches the opponent with great force. If combined with a different "Punch" attack (attacks that receive a boost from Iron Fist), the combined attack gets a Guaranteed Critical Hit and its Effect Chance Doubles (2.0x).
Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 85% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring

 

[Geodude6]

Egg moves: I don't see why not. Support, no discussion

Mega Punch: What worries me here are Hitmonchan and, to a lesser extent, Leidan. They both get lots of punching moves including Mega Punch, and they also have Iron Fist. Hitmonchan seems like the more pressing issue, since we won't break Leidan anytime soon. Regardless, I do think that Mega Punch needs to be improved. Support, but feel this warrants discussion

 

[Objection]

A discussion thread has been put up for Mega Punch.

 

[deadfox081]

General comment:

Where exactly does this constant buffing of everything in Pokemon stop? This community seems to be setting about making every single "bad" move have some kind of a use outside of its intended power.

Raticate isn't a very good Pokemon, should we make it better?

Normal isn't a very good offensive typing, should we make it better?

Big Pecks isn't a very good ability, should we make it better?

I'm just curious as to the final destination of this constant power creep.

 

[Objection]

The alternative is to remove things from the game (something that was considered for Dodge). No point in something being in the game if it's not going to have any use whatsoever or is going to be completely 100% outclassed by other things, especially since precedence isn't the be-all end-all of what does what in ASB.

 

[Unoriginal Name]

Where exactly does this constant buffing of everything in Pokemon stop? This community seems to be setting about making every single "bad" move have some kind of a use outside of its intended power.

Raticate isn't a very good Pokemon, should we make it better?

Normal isn't a very good offensive typing, should we make it better?

Big Pecks isn't a very good ability, should we make it better?

I'm just curious as to the final destination of this constant power creep.

The difference between buffing typings/abilities/Pokemon/whatever and buffing items and moves is simple:
You have a choice to purchase a Pokemon. However, if you want to max its movepool, why buy stuff like Mega Punch and Pound and whatever, if they're completely outclassed, save for niche (very small niche) combos? Similarly, why buy an item if Expert Belt or Rare Candy is better? If there's something that serves no purpose and is completely eclipsed by something better, it's broken, and not in the overpowered way.

However, for, example, Raticate, you know what you're getting into when you buy it. You might buy it because it's your favourite Pokemon (why you'd like Raticate, I don't know) or you need a Pokemon with STAB Super Fang and 'Icate is the best choice for this (or lolWatchog). You don't need to buy it to max out a movepool, nor do you feel it is 100% outclassed on every Pokemon that holds it.

Big Pecks comes with the Pokemon, so, again,

You don't need to buy it to max out a movepool, nor do you feel it is 100% outclassed on every Pokemon that holds it.

In addition, for types, that's simply straying too far from in-game precedence to be considered.

And Normal is a decent typing because STAB on moves like Protect and Encore. Not the best, of course, but the same could be said about Dragon. Heck, Dragon has more weaknesses than Normal and only hits 1 type super effectively, if you look at it like that. Just saying. Every type has a purpose: Ice hits lots of things SE, Dragon has good neutral coverage and amazing STABs, Grass has Leech Seeds and whatnot, Ground has EARTHQUAKE... you get the idea.

 

[Stratos]

General comment:

Where exactly does this constant buffing of everything in Pokemon stop? This community seems to be setting about making every single "bad" move have some kind of a use outside of its intended power.

I'm just curious as to the final destination of this constant power creep.

honestly, this is what worries me most as a councillor when I am voting on things—how to make sure we don't just buff everything because we can; how to make sure we don't just have power creep. sometimes i worry our council is far too active. i'm afraid there's no definite answer i can give you, except a case-by-case basis :[ (but i try to only buff things to be in line with their counterparts, never exceed)

 

[akela]

You need to remember what ASB stands for. Anime Style Battling. Now it has been a while since I have watched the anime, but I remember in the first couple of seasons that the only move that sucked was Splash. Every single move had a purpose. Every single move had a use. And while this contradicts what I stated 3 sentences ago, but even Splash had its uses (like bouncing really high). Should we not try to reflect that in ASB?

 

[Unitas]

I would like to propose a way for gym leaders to be usurped from their thrones so-to-speak. I don't know how you could go about doing this besides having a set of battles using the respective mono-type team while giving the challenger some extra restrictions. As of right now it seems like a leader can just hold his position indefinitely and as more people join ASB and become leaders in the community it becomes harder for others to have a shot. As of right now many gyms are being fought for and why not have a shot at taking over a gym leaders chair?

A possible proposal would be a regular gym situation except using Pokemon of the certain type while keeping the restriction on the number of mons a challenger can bring. I am uncertain on other types of restrictions for a battle like this because you definitely want a win to be obtainable from the challenger. Just an idea that was floating around on IRC.

 

[Objection]

Question: What should the ratios for multi-hit moves be in ASB?

Reason I ask:

• Bulbapedia says 3:3:1:1 (then again, Bulbapedia has gotten quite a few things wrong before)
• Smogon Research thread says 2:2:1:1 (link is to the post that should be linked to in that thread's OP on the line about multi-hit move hit probabilities)
• Ultimate Pokemon Center says 35:35:15:15

Ultimately I don't mind which one we go with, but can we pick one to go with?

 

[Stratos]

it's 2:2:1:1; this is legitimately the first time i have become aware there wasn't total unity as to that question

 

[Elevator Music]

Great Sage insists it is 35:35:15:15, please direct all comments that suggest otherwise to him (if you dare).