America

[iDunno]

I'd just like to touch on the education system in America. It sucks ass, and that is why our country sucks today. In my experience, there are two types of people in America; smart people and dumb people. There is very little middle ground between the two. This is because America's education system is pretty much an obstacle course, where only the most organized of the population can get through with above average grades. Many of the teachers are unorganized and the Unions cater to the veterans, which causes almost the entire teaching staff of the US to be pretty much done with their job and irritable. A lot of these old teachers are fine, don't get me wrong, but my problem is that with all of the budget cuts in education, a lot of newer teachers who have a lot of potential are being shafted. Not only that, but this also causes a shortage in prospective teachers in the first place due to the horrible state of the industry turning them off the path. This, of course, causes the entire state of the student body to suffer as well. I'm not saying the fault isn't from the students as well, but It isn't entirely their fault. They just feel as though they've been given up on, and with the heightening competition for college, there is no surprise that they have given up on themselves as well. And as the children give up on themselves, fresh blood gets scarcer in Politics.

Feel free to find any faults in my post; this is merely based on my observations and is not based on hard fact.

 

[Ferrouswheel]

I'd just like to touch on the education system in America. It sucks ass, and that is why our country sucks today. In my experience, there are two types of people in America; smart people and dumb people. There is very little middle ground between the two. This is because America's education system is pretty much an obstacle course, where only the most organized of the population can get through with above average grades. Many of the teachers are unorganized and the Unions cater to the veterans, which causes almost the entire teaching staff of the US to be pretty much done with their job and irritable. A lot of these old teachers are fine, don't get me wrong, but my problem is that with all of the budget cuts in education, a lot of newer teachers who have a lot of potential are being shafted. Not only that, but this also causes a shortage in prospective teachers in the first place due to the horrible state of the industry turning them off the path. This, of course, causes the entire state of the student body to suffer as well. I'm not saying the fault isn't from the students as well, but It isn't entirely their fault. They just feel as though they've been given up on, and with the heightening competition for college, there is no surprise that they have given up on themselves as well. And as the children give up on themselves, fresh blood gets scarcer in Politics.

Feel free to find any faults in my post; this is merely based on my observations and is not based on hard fact.

I would like to agree with the comment that there are currently significant problems with education. Deck Knight's comment that the majority of teachers are liberal is beside the point, a sizable number of teachers aren't that good. And as education all builds on itself, once you get behind due to a bad teacher for an entire year, that would then slow you down in all future classes in that subject.

The politics of the teacher don't make a difference at all, my best English professor was a conservative who I would credit as the reason why I can write at a decent level despite being rather dyslexic. And my worse English professor was a liberal who I would credit with absolutely nothing. My best history teacher was a conservative teacher who ensured that we learned about economics (either that or a liberal one who taught anthropology), and my worst was also a conservative who knew less than I did about the government (in US Government) and didn't keep up with current events despite making it part of the class grade. I simply have to disagree that the politics of a teacher mattering at all.

Fortunately, this is a self correcting measure, as without good teaching, the economy will continue to have problems and the top students who would be entering the top of the industry will instead fall back to teaching, ensuring that the next generation will kick ass. This is what happened at the end of the great depression, and is one of the reasons why America has had such a strong presence in the world, was that the previous generation's teachers were the tops of their subjects.

 

[UltimateKirbyFan]

I go to an American school in Hong Kong... AND most of the American people here are pretty, if not extremely, stupid. That gave me a pretty bad first impression of the country. Then the first time I went to the US, I was stereotyped and insulted. pretty bad second impression of the country... Then I learned about the history of the country... pretty bad third impression.

But the US is cool. I respect them... in a way.

 

[polelover44]

Our days as a superpower are over - our government has become corrupt and our education sucks balls. We no longer have the innovation that we had in the golden inventing age in the early 20th century, and we rely on other countries way too much (see: China). But I think that the view of America that other countries have is biased because of the way the media portrays the 'average american'. We're not ALL stupid and morbidly obese, many of the american stereotypes are actually pretty unrealistic. One reason for this is because we were a superpower during the Cold War/WWI/WWII, and superpowers generate jealous hate. Now that we're no longer a major world superpower (we ARE, but we're on the way down fast), the stereotype of an American as a lazy ass obese idiot comes to the front. I'll grant you that Americans are fatter than other countries and stupider than other countries and more racist than other countries, etc., but that doesn't mean EVERY American is an obese racist idiot. Thing is, American citizens are still quite well off compared to citizens of other countries. My feelings are basically summed up by this:

For all the bullshit that I hate about America, I think I'm rather fortunate to have been born here.

Yeah, America as a country sucks - but life here is pretty good.

 

[CaptKirby]

There is no way starting sex education after sixth grade would ever make sense, kids need to know things, and it especially helps dampen the bullying of gay people.

 

[polelover44]

I started sex ed in 5th grade actually.

 

[Chubbs]

Right, this is now officially the best thread on Smogon. Deck Knight is just too fucking dumb.

I mean; he still has not seen the problem in that people in the "European Socialist Hell-Holes" are neither sad nor oppressed, in fact, we are so much better off out here in England (and most of Europe) with regards to oppression and equality. We also have WAY more awesome fireworks here too, in America the most potent firework I have seen is a piddly little rocket that was about 6 inches long including the motor. Over here we have huge great mother fuckers that are about twice as long without the motor and about 5 times as fat. Oh and we can buy display fireworks (I.E: The type of thing you see at new years celebrations) OTC, and iirc in America they are limited to people who organize big displays.

One more thing: We have PROPER drugs laws out here, not the spastic draconian fail that you guys have.

 

[Killah]

you pretty much can't have an opinion on which country is the "best" to live in unless you've lived in multiple countries in your life.

also, I think it should be a requirement to post a reliable source whenever you post a statistic!

 

[Sy123]

You know, I like this thread, because I have learnt a whole lot crap on America. Enoguh, to know I wont be living there anytime soon. Seriously though, I know more about America than ever before

 

[Polis4rule]

How so? From some rants from Deck Knight and ensuing debate? How can you accurately judge a country as massive and heterogeneous as the US from what a few people say on the internet? That's just as ignorant as what you probably think of the US.

 

[Cshadow]

My experience in the US having lived in Colorado, Texas and Louisiana has not been a colorful one. I don't exactly enjoy the people here, the educational system, the politics (this isn't exactly relevant though - I've never enjoyed listening to the politics of any country to be perfectly honest, nobody ever seems to have any ideas about what they are doing : I), or the prejudices that (in my experience) are just so much more abundant compared to other places I've lived. I've lived in countries like the US, England, Canada, Turkey, etc, I can say with complete honesty that being in Canada was the best 4 years I've had in my life (at least compared to the last two years, which have been spent in Louisiana). It was nice, colorful, the people were lovely and didn't really carry any of the prejudices against race or sexuality that I must listen to on a daily basis. The only bad thing was the really fucking cold ass winters (I still, however, love the snow). This could just be the places I'd lived in, as I have little experience with the US outside the more Southern areas.

The US has it's problems as any other country has, but I'm thankful to be able to live here, and to have lived in Canada, than to be living in some of the other countries in the world :X

 

[Stagnant]

AMERICA,
Fuck Yeah

 

[J-man]

I like America
Others don't.
Some people on here seem to think that if they disagree with you they are automatically an *Insert slander here*.

Apparently opposition to homosexuality is one of the biggest reason amongst the liberal smogonites as to why America is the worst place to live in the world. People loving America is also one of the biggest reasons to hate america too.

I just love these kind of threads....

 

[masterful]

I like America
Others don't.
Some people on here seem to think that if they disagree with you they are automatically an *Insert slander here*.

Apparently opposition to homosexuality is one of the biggest reason amongst the liberal smogonites as to why America is the worst place to live in the world. People loving America is also one of the biggest reasons to hate america too.

I just love these kind of threads....

America's history of prejudice and bigotry is one of the greatest stains that mars the greatness that this country could possess, and to ignore that is simple denial, and makes you no better than those who would hate America for no other reason than that they do not live here.

 

[iDunno]

America's history of prejudice and bigotry is one of the greatest stains that mars the greatness that this country could possess, and to ignore that is simple denial, and makes you no better than those who would hate America for no other reason than that they do not live here.

There's racism in other countries too (including Africa, even). The reason why it is more prevalent in America is that there is a more diverse population. You don't see racism in Japan because there are only Japanese people there. You don't see racism in China because there are only Chinese people there. You do see racism towards Americans in France because they just don't like us over there? I don't know why... Maybe its because we think that racism is the only reason why other countries hate us?

EDIT: I never said that Africa was a country...

 

[masterful]

There's racism in other countries too (including Africa, even). The reason why it is more prevalent in America is that there is a more diverse population. You don't see racism in Japan because there are only Japanese people there. You don't see racism in China because there are only Chinese people there. You do see racism towards Americans in France because they just don't like us over there? I don't know why... Maybe its because we think that racism is the only reason why other countries hate us?

Racism is not the only fault of america, as I have detailed HEAVILY, and honestly, I don't care if racism is in other countries too; I'm not comparing America to France or Japan or China (Africa isn't a country, btw), I'm simply saying that the prevalence of racism is one of the things that really shakes my faith in this country and is one of its biggest downfalls.

 

[billymills]

There's racism in other countries too (including Africa, even). The reason why it is more prevalent in America is that there is a more diverse population. You don't see racism in Japan because there are only Japanese people there. You don't see racism in China because there are only Chinese people there. You do see racism towards Americans in France because they just don't like us over there? I don't know why... Maybe its because we think that racism is the only reason why other countries hate us?

It's my understanding that Japan is rather racist. I don't know about China but I think there's a good chance it wouldn't be any different.

I think the problem that America has in this case is race inequality. A greater proportion of Hispanics and African-Americans are poor than whites or Asians. That tends to promote problematic racism (Affirmative action, resentment towards other races because of the imbalance).

 

[Deck Knight]

First things first: Calling me an idiot makes you look weak, uninformed, and incapable of rational discussion. Saying I am socially backward is a matter of your opinion and does nothing to bolster your argument. For anyone engaged in this type of posting, get over your need to be morally or intellectually superior to someone who disagrees.

I try to be honest and forceful in my opinions but never personally insulting to someone else and I do fail on occasion I admit. If you cannot enter a discussion where you can divorce your own person from your opinions (e.g. assaulting progressive policies is the same as insulting progressives.) then it isn't worth discussing because you start from a position of defensiveness to an attack that never happened.

Here is my main clarification:

My assertion that America is the best does not make your country suck. It does not make your country a "socialist hellhole", and it does not mean its citizens are unhappy. I can disagree vehemently with the policies of a given country and point out its flaws without that being an indictment of the people that live there. Please note the difference between arguing that Europe's fiscal policies are insolvent and thereby not indicative of progress vs. arguing that Americans are ignorant. One attacks a policy, the other attacks people who live there.

I don't know how I can make it clearer that my love of my own country is not a denigration of yours, wherever it is. The entire world is bankrupt right now, including the European nations who have basically been bailing out the next domino whose entitlements have outstripped their ability to pay for it. Public corruption exists in every nation whether their citizens acknowledge it or not. Moreover America has a fairly loose immigration policy. The "nation of immigrants" speech j7r gave is simply proof that you can in fact choose your nation. "Native Americans" however are second generation immigrants or later in my thought process. The idea I'm not a "Native American" when I was born here, my parents were born here, and their parents were born here is a politically correct assininity. What I'm not is an aboriginal. Just like basically every single person in the world, yet I doubt French people or English people or German people don't consider themselves "natives" to a land their family has lived in for centuries.

j7r: You hate the south, I get it. You hate how every once in a while one random community in the south says or does something idiotic which is then aired on the national news (and generally ridiculed because it's a dumb decision). You then blithely ignore all of the good things about the south and pretend the north of the nation is some hotbed of equality and progress. You ever noticed j7r that more people of noticable minority live in the south? No? Well, maybe you should look it up then. I don't care if race is a "senstitive issue." It's only "sensitive" because progressives like you say it is. Real people argue with facts, not ignore them because to accept them would be offensive to some people. The truth as captured in statistical snapshots by definition cannot be offensive to an objective observer. You can either do something about the realities surrounding the truth or call the truth racist/sexist/whatever and ignore what goes into it, and demonize anyone who speaks it.

@Myzozoa: Why do you accept the notion Americans are ignorant? Your entire passage is worthless if you assert you don't know what you're talking about, which according to your own logic may very well be true, why should I have even bothered to read your post? Americans are no more ignorant or racist than anyone of any other nation. France, England, and Canada can call me when they've had black presidents, black secretaries of defense, and black secretaries of state. The line America is racist is blatant hogwash. There may be racists here, but there are racists everywhere on earth. Before there were neonazis there were Nazis, and by the by Europe's defense of the Jews in WWII was pretty lackluster. The first slavers were Africans inflicting it on their own people ffs. If people stopped focusing on whose opinion to ignore because they or their nation are bigoted/racist etc we'd probably make some actual progress.

The primary reasons for the perception of American ignorance are, as the thread confirms, exactly as I stated earlier. People belive americans are ignorant because they don't align with the values of every other industrialized nation. Funny, since they probably said the exact same thing when Americans didn't allign with the values of every divine right empire. It's not even remotely ironic that everything old is new again, and the same nations who now say americans are ignorant because America doesn't have socialized medicine and gay marriage said then that americans were ignorant because America wasn't a divine right monarchy. Americans don't have an excessive need for global validation, and never have. Our nation and the European nations are going bankrupt for the exact same reason: Entitlement promises our governments made that no nation of any size could ever possibly afford. The thing driving all of out nations into bankruptcy is allignment with that highest values of other industrialized nations: socialized medicine and expansive social safety nets. They simply aren't sustainable. All they do is rob grandchildren of the benefits that the adults of today will get.

@masterful:

The 9/11 health responders bill was delayed because a budget hadn't been passed by Democrats with massive majorities in both houses at the time, so the 41 Republicans in the Senate demanded the government do one of its actual constitutional duties of funding itself. The fact the tax policy expiration dates (those weren't "cuts", they were America's tax policy for the past decade) were also impending and would represent the largest tax hike in history to all classes of Americans was simply one reason the bill was held up. To this day a 2010 fiscal year budget hasn't been passed despite the efforts of Republicans, who are correct in pushing for spending cuts. Instead they've been doing this contuning resolution nonsense. Hopefully this was the last one. If Democrats wanted a dream spending budget they had plenty of time before their huge congressional majorities were wiped out in November. Everything subsequent in your post makes no sense because you talk about a spending bill and how it provides "free" services. If the services were free they wouldn't need a spending bill for them. Furthmore the assumption that the government must spend money of every person who suffered a terrible tragedy is an errant one. The government should do only those things it must. It is not supposed to be a piggy bank or a charity.

You also work off the same economic nonsense as j7r that whenever the government takes in less money it is a gift to someone (usually some nebulous "rich"). j7r is worse in that he blatantly ignores what the Bush tax cuts did for the middle class. I actually know people who own small businesses. Both of my parents owned one and so does my aunt. We really can't afford to solace ourselves that "the rich" are some faraway class of faceless robber barons to demagogue. We are "the rich" despite the fact we have debts greater than our net worth. But every time my parents get a break on their business taxes, progressives always whine about the rich getting a gift. And they never explain to me why the government has the first claim on that money anyway. Government didn't produce that wealth, therefore theirs is the last claim, not the first.

There were people on both sides of the argument, except in your mind apparently.

Sorry for bringing balance to a thread with an OP that was sort of half-assed and the ensuing one-line troll posts by of all people an a forum moderator. That isn't "both sides" to me, so I brought the other side.

Also no matter how many times you repeat your coincidence sound byte, it will never become clever, I promise you.

So are you saying that all statistics are coincidences, or only those that don't fit your narrative? Statistics are not infallible to be sure, but they are a starting point for a discussion. You cannot simply ignore every gathered statistic you don't like "because correlation isn't causation." If statistics are always useless then why do we care so much about, say, WHO health care rankings?

If you want conversation, you can start by engaging issues on an honest level, like how America is not the greatest country in the world, but is not a bad place to live either. I do assume your overt fawning was simple trolling though, not serious...it just goes hand in hand with what I am talking about with discussion.

But you see, my argument is that America is the greatest country in the world, and that it is an exceptional place to live. That is what I honestly believe, but in doing so I have apparently violated your rules of honest engagement. Speaking of dishonest engagement, your line of argument that I overload my posts with "bigoted, specious, irreverently anti-intelligent typical republican diversionary screeds" is an indication you never had anything of value to say. I play by a different set of rules than you do, and in my rulebook part of honest engagement is not assuming the worst in someone and not letting your pre-concieved notion filter out your willingness to learn something. It's why I get along so well with Morm for example, and a bunch of other people on Smogon with vastly different politics from my own. I consider that part of being a good American, by the way.

See, I don't have a problem with people saying America isn't the best nation in the world, I'd just like them to provide an example of a better one in it's stead and advance what's great about that country. Knocking something down is the easy, cheap thing to do. Having pride in your country is not irrational. I'd much rather hear about how Britain has for example wonderful educational institutions than a constant whining hum of "America's education system sucks. America's education system is doomed. America is backwards. The south is why people hate America." People are actors in free nations are they not? Then their nation is in some small part shaped by their efforts, and the collective effort of a nation's people shapes that nation's policy.

 

[Firestorm]

How so? From some rants from Deck Knight and ensuing debate? How can you accurately judge a country as massive and heterogeneous as the US from what a few people say on the internet? That's just as ignorant as what you probably think of the US.

Crazy lunatics like Deck Knight is what most people are exposed to when it comes to America. Unfortunately, that's what colours their opinion of the country. You don't see YouTube videos of sane everyday Americans and think "That's America!". You see video after video of gun-totin' angry people screaming "KILL THE BILL" or oxymorons like "Communist Nazi".

This topic is about perception. It's not about reality. Some Americans are understandably on the defensive, but I don't see how that makes the idea of basing your perception of a country based on how the imagery you see most often less natural.

 

[Myzozoa]

@Myzozoa: Why do you accept the notion Americans are ignorant? Your entire passage is worthless if you assert you don't know what you're talking about, which according to your own logic may very well be true, why should I have even bothered to read your post?lol
Americans are no more ignorant or racist than anyone of any other nation.
i was not comparing americans' ignorance to other nations, other people in other countries are ignorant to, I merely was asserting a fact which is generally accepted by political scientists on both sides (liberal and conservative) that the American people are uninformed and make no effort to become informed. Your argument deviates from standard conservative rhetoric, as on the issue of americans' ignorance the conservative viewpoint is that most Americans could never be able to devote enough time to become aware because the government is too big and complicated, and if americans are to have any chance of being politically aware the government's arena of power needs to reduced to something understandable. I don't buy into this, but im sure any excuse to roll back the government is something you can get behind.

I never said americans were rascist, I was pointing out how ironically xenophobic they are, you yourself made remarks that are (in the way most people understand english) xenophobic. are you rascist? No, or at least not because of the comments i have read by you in this thread. However it is ironic that as someone who's lineage surely includes people who at one time immigrated to america, you would seek to prevent others from doing so because you believe that they cannot adopt and conform to american ideals, despite the fact that your own lineage should be YOUR OWN IDEAL EXAMPLE OF AN IMMIGRANT ADOPTING "AMERICAN" (as you see it) VALUES.

France, England, and Canada can call me when they've had black presidents, black secretaries of defense, and black secretaries of state.
Oh come on. you cant possibly be using this to argue this point, we can all see what you did there, please, you know this is bad argument on so many levels, you can do so much better.
The line America is racist is blatant hogwash.
someone else must have said this, i didnt (at least not in this thread)There may be racists here, but there are racists everywhere on earth. Before there were neonazis there were Nazis, and by the by Europe's defense of the Jews in WWII was pretty lackluster. The first slavers were Africans inflicting it on their own people ffs
the structure of african slavery is much less brutal than that imposed by europeans, im not saying this invalidates your point, but it is relevant to this discussion.
If people stopped focusing on whose opinion to ignore because they or their nation are bigoted/racist etc we'd probably make some actual progress.
well said, down with the 2 party system

The primary reasons for the perception of American ignorance are, as the thread confirms, exactly as I stated earlier. People belive americans are ignorant because they don't align with the values of every other industrialized nation
this is a large part of it,many europeans would find many of the policies in our justice system (the death penalty in combination with what is tantamount to jury stacking), gun control laws (or lack their of), our cultural beliefs about self-worth and its relationship to money, read slaughterhouse 5 for more on this, and the way we are so paternalistic and dismissive of most of the rest of the world. Americans pride themselves on separating their collective identity apart from the rest of the globe, isolating themselves and breeding resentment, then we look even more foolish when we wonder why many nations around the world hate us. .

Funny, since they probably said the exact same thing when Americans didn't allign with the values of every divine right empire.
yeah probably, those big government conservatives (im refering to the monarchies of pre 20th century europe... also reagan lol) arent fond of personal freedom It's not even remotely ironic that everything old is new again, and the same nations who now say americans are ignorant because America doesn't have socialized medicine and gay marriage said then that americans were ignorant because America wasn't a divine right monarchyyeah they tried to duplicate our revolution because we were so ignorant, no first world nation is trying to duplicate our government structure now....

Americans don't have an excessive need for global validation, and never have.
I consider this a massive problem, you I think are proud of this

Our nation and the European nations are going bankrupt for the exact same reason: Entitlement promises our governments made that no nation of any size could ever possibly afford.
if you really believe this you are deep in denial. social security, welfare, medicare, these can fixed easily by raising taxes(heaven forfend we do that though right?), and then raising the retirement to age 70. Done, fixed. Guess what our budget will still be overdrawn, because of defense spending, you want to balance the budget, its as easy as reducing defense spending. You will probably reject this or give credit to a conservative congress (laughable), but clinton created a budget surplus. if you DO give credit to a republican legislature for this surplus, then you shouldnt mind returning taxes to clinton era levels.

Okay, Im also going to breifly diverge into class conscience here, because I feel there is something notable about america which may help people understand the psychology of america better:
In america, we dont have a class conscience, if you ask 30 year old mother of 2, working a part time job using credit cards to pay her mortgage, what class she is, she will tell you she is middle class. If you ask my uncle, a lawyer who specializes in tax evasion (you should meet him deck nite, you and he would get along great) who recently bought a second house, and is retired but still makes well over $600,000 a year from his consulting work, he will tell you he is middle class. People below the poverty line will tell you they are middle class. This is because in america, we have no awareness of class or class warfare. This is why political parties are able to guile the public into what they call 'middle-class tax revolt' which is a now a major political factor in government policy, this concept of middle class tax revolt (where as other countries' middle class will usually accept high taxation as long as they understand the benefits thereof) was originally developed in america during the reagan administration and strengthened by newt gingrich's genius, and has been of great importance to the survival of the republican party in america. The irony of this is that because of middle class tax revolt, the middle class in america shrinks and the rich get richer (untaxed, and their business unregulated, as deregulation goes along with tax revolt) and the poor get poorer (exploited by the rich, with little professional jobs available, as professional stable jobs are often created by government investment which the government cannot do with out taxes, that would proliferate the middle-class). this lack of class conscience goes deeper: in america unlike almost every other civilized country in the world, money is assossiated with self-worth, such that if you arent rich, you will consider yourself a less lovable, valuable human being. Part of the reason poor people in america dont identify themselves as poor people (instead identifying themselves as middle class) is that they cant bring themselves to do so and be humiliated. In the same vein, rich people will also identify themselves as middle class so as not to appear conceited. In america, unlike almost everywhere else, there is no cultural concept of honest poverty, being impoverished is viewed as meaning you are lazy or flawed, rather than because you were born into the unlucky part of the capitalist system, as it is viewed in most other industrialized nations.

tl;dr? go read it it will put hair on your chest

 

[Thund91]

Well I'm obviously gonna like it when I live in the best state/place. ;)

 

[masterful]

@masterful:

The 9/11 health responders bill was delayed because a budget hadn't been passed by Democrats with massive majorities in both houses at the time, so the 41 Republicans in the Senate demanded the government do one of its actual constitutional duties of funding itself. The fact the tax policy expiration dates (those weren't "cuts", they were America's tax policy for the past decade) were also impending and would represent the largest tax hike in history to all classes of Americans was simply one reason the bill was held up. To this day a 2010 fiscal year budget hasn't been passed despite the efforts of Republicans, who are correct in pushing for spending cuts. Instead they've been doing this contuning resolution nonsense. Hopefully this was the last one. If Democrats wanted a dream spending budget they had plenty of time before their huge congressional majorities were wiped out in November. Everything subsequent in your post makes no sense because you talk about a spending bill and how it provides "free" services. If the services were free they wouldn't need a spending bill for them. Furthmore the assumption that the government must spend money of every person who suffered a terrible tragedy is an errant one. The government should do only those things it must. It is not supposed to be a piggy bank or a charity.

You also work off the same economic nonsense as j7r that whenever the government takes in less money it is a gift to someone (usually some nebulous "rich"). j7r is worse in that he blatantly ignores what the Bush tax cuts did for the middle class. I actually know people who own small businesses. Both of my parents owned one and so does my aunt. We really can't afford to solace ourselves that "the rich" are some faraway class of faceless robber barons to demagogue. We are "the rich" despite the fact we have debts greater than our net worth. But every time my parents get a break on their business taxes, progressives always whine about the rich getting a gift. And they never explain to me why the government has the first claim on that money anyway. Government didn't produce that wealth, therefore theirs is the last claim, not the first.

1)There is absolutely that the 9/11 bill should not have been passed. I don't understand how you could possibly argue this unless you have been so completely indoctrinated by your parents and those around you that you possess a complete and total blind devotion to your country even to the point of avoiding a chance to save some of its most noble citizens. The bill raised the tax rate on the average person around a cent. A CENT. Even your precious Republican passed the bill finally, after holding up progress for months. There was absolutely no reason to refuse its passage from the beginning, and for no other reason than blind stubbornness, the Republican Party held the Congress hostage, and abused the other members of congress's legitimate desire to take steps to help such a deserving portion of our population.
2)That same tax "policy" (I referred to them as cuts because they gave the rich an enormous tax break that they did not need) existed throughout the recession, and the Republican Party passed its continuation off as something that would encourage people to buy. That is stupid. That is clearly stupid. How can you argue against the fact that saying that was stupid? Also, did you legitimately say that the raising of taxes such a marginal amount was more than the lives of these repsonders were WORTH? The government is a body elected by the people TO SERVE THE PEOPLE. A country is all fucking people, you can't say governments are not supposed to benefit the people.
3)If you make $250,000 a year at least, you make more than more than 90% of the country. Why exactly does it make sense that these people should not help to pick up the slack for those who did not have the same benefits as these other possessed in life? Should luck, of birth, of connections, of heritage really be the basis on one's quality of life in such a great country as our own could be? Or do you not care about what is just, and only what is good for you and those around you?

I am well aware that I am using talking points and appeals to emotion here. This is intentional, as you seem insistent on sticking to your own even to the point of disregarding perfectly viable arguments that you do not possess the ability to refute. I eagerly await the post where you condense what I just said down into a few semantics and liberal greed. Watch out for the crocodiles.

 

[Firestorm]

Well I'm obviously gonna like it when I live in the best state/place. ;)

British Columbia is a province, not a state. I didn't know you were moving up there!

 

[CaptKirby]

I like America
Others don't.
Some people on here seem to think that if they disagree with you they are automatically an *Insert slander here*.

Apparently opposition to homosexuality is one of the biggest reason amongst the liberal smogonites as to why America is the worst place to live in the world. People loving America is also one of the biggest reasons to hate america too.

I just love these kind of threads....

I do not give a fuck if people love America, I give a fuck if they promote it with some irrational exuberance and it becomes a social stain on your life if you are not patriotic, when being irrationally patriotic is far more of a cancer on our country and our foreign policy. (That does not mean treason laws are wrong, but the Patriot Act is as a matter of fact blatantly unconstitutional and violates basic human rights/dignity/et cetera).

Liberal smogonites? Do you mean people who dislike being surrounded by crassly unreasonable, deeply rooted bigotry that stems only from ignorance and hate? I guess that must make a lot of nice people on either political side "liberal'. If anyone wants to make a gay person feel "small" for being gay, then that person is a total fucking joke. That it happens on a widespread basis, that gays are bullied far more frequently, is sheerly disgusting and is a reason that the United States is much less enjoyable than it could be. It is just the group that gets the most attention though, Jew bashing, a gross amount of sexism, a gross amount of black versus white resentment, et cetera all stain this nation more than many others, as well as less than many others.

First things first: Calling me an idiot makes you look weak, uninformed, and incapable of rational discussion. or you are saying stupid things, like really stupid

I try to be honest and forceful in my opinions except when you create specious trainwrecks to justify false assumptions, but go on but never personally insulting to someone else and I do fail on occasion I admit. okay so why did you rant about it for another huge amount of words oh right you believe amount of text = amount of how right you are

Here is my main clarification:

My assertion that America is the best does not make your country suck. it just makes the United States the best fucking place ever just because it perfected easygoing suburban life then started to fall ass backward into festering entropy again

I don't know how I can make it clearer that my love of my own country is not a denigration of yours, wherever it is. The entire world is bankrupt right now, including the European nations who have basically been bailing out the next domino whose entitlements have outstripped their ability to pay for it other countries have debt and oppress rights in power grabs too, I guess that makes it okay or something. Public corruption exists in every nation whether their citizens acknowledge it or not. yeah but not every country abuses one clause in an ancient text to make a bunch of really terrible judicial decisions for ever higher federal power grabs either (Commerce)

j7r: You hate how every once in a while one random community in the south says or does something idiotic which is then aired on the national news have you ever been to a southern church? lived through being brainwashed with Republican assbackward horseshit as an elemenatry school student? oh wait only liberal teachers exist, my childhood must be a mistaken memory. You then blithely ignore all of the good things about the south I dunno I think food is about the only thing we really get right and pretend the north of the nation is some hotbed of equality and progress well yeah the North fucking sucks too, but healthier, more pleasant cities to live in like Denver (West) or Boston (North) and their suburbs exist. You ever noticed j7r that more people of noticable minority live in the south? No? Well, maybe you should look it up then. I don't care if race is a "senstitive issue." It's only "sensitive" because progressives like you say it is. It is a pretty sensitive issue that class disparity creates most of our social problems. Real people argue with facts, not ignore them yeah they just twist them with verbose screeds to try to make it hard to reply to because to accept them would be offensive to some people. The truth as captured in statistical snapshots by definition cannot be offensive to an objective observer what fucking statistics have you shown, that blacks and mexicans get bad test scores? okay, that sure is the only fucking thing we ever said was wrong with the United States in this thread. You can either do something about the realities surrounding the truth or call the truth racist/sexist/whatever and ignore what goes into it, and demonize anyone who speaks it or you can make convoluted trainwrecks, then call anyone who calls it a convoluted trainwreck a freedom hater, truth hater, whatever you want, just pick a label, this is how politics operates baby!

@Myzozoa: Why do you accept the notion Americans are ignorant? maybe because your favorite news organization that the a lot of people in the United States buy into spends massive time and effort misinterpreting everything about Muslims? for just one example Your entire passage is worthless if you assert you don't know what you're talking about, which according to your own logic may very well be true, why should I have even bothered to read your post? why should anyone bother to read any point? to further the heated discussion (fight) you claim you so desperately need Americans are no more ignorant or racist than anyone of any other nation yeah it is not like other nations do things like not give a shit if gays are in their armies. France, England, and Canada can call me when they've had black presidents whom the cowardly racists spend years calling a secret Muslim, or for the specious Republican lie (not that you buy into this necessarily, one of the few points not explicitly about how wrong you personally are) where someone like Fox News will breathlessly report on how many amuricans think he is a secret Muslim with cloyingly clear intents, black secretaries of defense, and black secretaries of state. The line America is racist is blatant hogwash okay have you actually never seen a group of black people walking in a white area before or are you just pretending not to have?.

The primary reasons for the perception of American ignorance are, as the thread confirms, exactly as I stated earlier. People belive americans are ignorant because they don't align with the values of every other industrialized nation no actually it is because of things like "President George W. Bush, two terms". Funny, since they probably said the exact same thing when Americans didn't allign with the values of every divine right empire. It's not even remotely ironic that everything old is new again, and the same nations who now say americans are ignorant because America doesn't have socialized medicine and gay marriage said then that americans were ignorant because America wasn't a divine right monarchy okay see these are the types of things that I keep calling you dishonest and specious over, this is like the actual literal definition of specious in practice.

@masterful:

bla bla bla only republicans understand how to shuffle money around or something

I actually know people who own small businesses okay this is where anecdotes become ridiculous. Both of my parents owned one and so does my aunt. We really can't afford to solace ourselves that "the rich" are some faraway class of faceless robber barons to demagogue. We are "the rich" despite the fact we have debts greater than our net worth. But every time my parents get a break on their business taxes, progressives always whine about the rich getting a gift you do know that both sides of the goverment fucks over small businesses more than anyone else, right? I am extremely liberal (probably also whatever the fuck a progressive is supposed to be in your mind anymore) and believe small businesses deserve all the help that they can get.


Sorry for bringing balance to a thread with an OP that was sort of half-assed and the ensuing one-line troll posts by of all people an a forum moderator. That isn't "both sides" to me, so I brought the other side. Again balance is not ridiculously roundabout posts that have lots of dishonestly in them, or even a fight existing; that is just masturbatory and used to tire out your "opponents"


bla bla you never posted any useful statistics, and that is not what I ever talked about; not only did you never especially prove any of the "coincidence" rhetorical sound byte bullshit claims you made, but you just tried to create some clever catch phrase to "defeat" your opponents, and even though I do not believe in your false god I will pray to him right now that you stop, hold on a second


But you see, my argument is that America is the greatest country in the world, and that it is an exceptional place to live what you said was that it is the greatest, FUCK YEAH! do you understand what trolling is?. That is what I honestly believe, but in doing so I have apparently violated your rules of honest engagement yeah, you did, but do not worry you did it about every time I replied in bold in this post too. Speaking of dishonest engagement, your line of argument that I overload my posts with "bigoted, specious, irreverently anti-intelligent typical republican diversionary screeds" no see this is actually true, you do it a lot, you would stop typing nearly as much if you had anything to actually say is an indication you never had anything of value to say ?? since apparently all you think is worthwhile is forceful opinions, I am not sure why you think that I am not saying anything worthwhile, I should be somewhere between your Bible and love of roundabout posts on terms of the value scale. I play by a different set of rules than you do yeah, making twisted lies then calling them "forceful opinions", and in my rulebook part of honest engagement is not assuming the worst in someone and not letting your pre-concieved notion filter out your willingness to learn something okay I think I could learn a few facts from you that I could learn any book or wikipedia, but how about we just call that fucking completely immaterial like it is; I know how to make up half reasonable, half specious justifications for anachronistic viewpoints. It's why I get along so well with Morm for example I do not tolerate ignorance, it has nothing to do with me if Mormoopid does, or any other person on smogon whose viewpoints you repeatedly try to make insipid detractions from, and a bunch of other people on Smogon with vastly different politics from my own. I consider that part of being a good American, by the way.

See, I don't have a problem with people saying America isn't the best nation in the world, I'd just like them to provide an example of a better one in it's stead Canada, Sweden, Norway, Germany, and probably a few others that I know less about; you would reject all these examples because you disagree, and it is incredibly hard and advance what's great about that country to state what is "great" about a country in terms that are convincing. Knocking something down is the easy, cheap thing to do okay can you stop doing it then?. Having pride in your country is not irrational it actually is, but I do not expect you to understand why, xenophobia is one of the values I assumed you had when I thought the worst of you. Then their nation is in some small part shaped by their efforts, and the collective effort of a nation's people shapes that nation's policy uh yeah pretty sure it is mostly the rich trying to control how much they keep being rich, you must know how bad law works in this country at this point, but feel free to call that insane or something.

I cut out the parts that drove me to desperate boredom because they were so utterly irrelevant, but trust me I did not take anything remotely out of context. Of course, this is all pointless since you will never stop being roundabout instead of incisive and always include several blatant fallacies, but always a fun exercise every now and then.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

i am living in new york and nobody understands my sense of humour here

that's right, humour