Metagame AG Metagame Discussion Thread - DLC 2 Edition

[Fc]

Welcome to the discussion thread for the Scarlet and Violet Anything Goes DLC 2 metagame! This thread is the place to post about all things related to the new metagame—theorycrafting, metagame observations, and set sharing are all encouraged!
thanks to WrathoftheLeopard for writing all this up

Notable Returning Pokemon


Notable New Pokemon

How does Terapagos work?

- Terapagos has three formes. It is not item-locked, but it is stuck using the Stellar Tera type (which keeps the defensive profile of its Normal typing).
- Terapagos starts in its base forme with a mere 450 BST, but its ability, Tera Shift, causes it to transform into its Terastal forme upon switching in.
- Terapagos-Terastal has 600 BST and the ability Tera Shell, which makes all damaging moves used against it not very effective while it's at full HP.
- Terastallizing Terapagos changes it to its Stellar forme, which has 700 BST and the ability Teraform Zero. Teraform Zero nullifies all weather and terrain effects upon this forme change. Terapagos-Stellar also gets a 2x STAB boost on its Normal-type moves and a 1.2x STAB boost on all of its other moves for the rest of the battle.
- Terapagos has a signature move called Tera Starstorm, which is Normal-type and has 120 BP. When in its Stellar forme, Terapagos only receives a 1.2x STAB boost on this move but deals neutral damage to all non-Terastallized Pokemon and super effective damage to all Terastallized Pokemon with it.

Notable Missing Pokemon


Movepool Changes for Notable Pokemon

Existing Pokemon

Arceus: +Double-Edge, +Meteor Beam, +Psych Up, +Scorching Sands, +Supercell Slam
Eternatus: +Meteor Beam, +Sludge Wave
Giratina: +Curse, +Skitter Smack, +Breaking Swipe
Koraidon: +Double-Edge, +Dragon Cheer, +Meteor Beam, +Temper Flare
Kyogre: +Whirlpool
Landorus: +Scorching Sands, +Sludge Wave
Miraidon: +Dragon Cheer, +Supercell Slam
Ribombee: +Alluring Voice, +Psychic Noise, +Skitter Smack, +Psych Up
Skeledirge: +Alluring Voice, +Scorching Sands, +Temper Flare
Ting-Lu: +Double-Edge
Toxapex: +Muddy Wave, +Pain Split, +Sludge Wave

Returning Pokemon

Deoxys: +Expanding Force, +Future Sight, +Imprison, +Meteor Beam, +Pain Split, +Psychic Noise, +Psychic Terrain, +Stored Power, +Tera Blast, -Ally Switch, -Avalanche, -Body Slam, -Double-Edge, -Dynamic Punch, -Focus Punch, -Laser Focus, -Magic Coat, -Meteor Mash, -Power-Up Punch, -Psycho Shift, -Recycle, -Safeguard, -Seismic Toss, -Swagger, -Torment, -Toxic
Ho-Oh: +Body Slam, +Hurricane, +Tera Blast, -Bulldoze, -Burn Up, -Celebrate, -Curse, -Defog, -Laser Focus, -Mystical Fire, -Roar, -Roost, -Swagger, -Thunder Wave, -Toxic, -Zap Cannon
Kyurem: +Ice Fang, +Aerial Ace, +Avalanche, +Body Slam, +Tera Blast, +Roar, +Dragon Cheer, -Hone Claws, -Laser Focus, -Payback, -Roost, -Safeguard, -Swagger, -Toxic
Lunala: +Rain Dance, +Tera Blast, -Defog, -Magic Coat, -Psycho Cut, -Roar, -Roost, -Safeguard, -Sky Attack, -Swagger, -Thunder Wave, -Toxic, -Work Up
Necrozma: +Body Slam, +Sandstorm, +Sunny Day, +Tera Blast, -Ally Switch, -Autotomize, -Breaking Swipe, -Cosmic Power, -Magnet Rise, -Recycle, -Rock Polish, -Swagger, -Thunder Wave, -Toxic
Zekrom: +Body Slam, +Brick Break, +Double-Edge, +Dragon Cheer, +Focus Punch, +Roar, +Stealth Rock, +Sunny Day, +Supercell Slam, +Tera Blast, -Defog, -Hone Claws, -Laser Focus, -Magnet Rise, -Payback, -Rising Voltage, -Roost, -Safeguard, -Swagger, -Toxic

 

[Adhiraj8202]

I believe DLC2 has been a lot more fun and interesting compared to DLC1. I've been playing a fair bit of DLC2 since yesterday, and would like to share my thoughts on the meta.

Starting off with the two best Pokemon that have returned.

Amazing Pokemon overall. Regenerator is a damn good ability, and Ho-Oh just checks so much in the meta that includes: Scarf Kora, Fairyceus, Groundceus, and soft checking Calyrex-S too. Also has Whirlwind, so you can now afford to run a different move on Ting-Lu while still racking up hazards damage.

Set:

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 SpD
Impish Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Whirlwind
- Earthquake

I believe this is the best set you have for Ho-Oh, considering it lost most of its main moves from SS. Don't let that fool you, it's still very good and cements itself on balance and BO teams really nicely. I've gone for Earthquake for the last slot because letting in Mira for free is not good. EQ actually 2hkos Mira as well.

hide

0 Atk Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Miraidon: 180-214 (52.7 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

NDM is him. We get a Knock rocker that absolutely walls Zacian and Fairyceus, while also soft-checking Ekiller. Kora being a staple on structures makes morning sun do insane recovery, that allows NDM to be even better. I think rocky helmet / leftovers rocker is definitely the best set but you can run bulky DD as well.

Set(s):

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Ground / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Atk / 208 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Moonlight
- Sunsteel Strike

Dragon Dance (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Ground / Water / Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 64 SpD / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Sunsteel Strike
- Moonlight

Some sets I've been cooking up for NDM. Rocks set is as straightforward as it gets. You can also go max max but I just like to optimize my sets more haha. The DD set has a lot of purposes. Prevents 2HKO from Zacian-C's Close Combat, and 60 speed outspeeds Mira after +2. You can go for 120 speed instead to outspeed Caly at +2. The SpD is for better rolls vs Mira and other special attackers. You can go for helmet on bulky DD, but I believe longevity in such a hazardous meta is nice.

Now moving onto some of my observations from the meta so far.
I always knew Mira was gonna pick up after the return of NDM and Ho-Oh. I think the major problem with Mira was that it wasn't able to freely come in, even with the help of U-turn via Kora and/ or Lando-T. I think Kora is kept in check with Ho-Oh, and Fairyceus cannot even think to break through with both NDM and Ho-Oh. This makes Mira stocks go high in viability. Boots Mira is him. Trust me.

Don't run Tera grass on this anymore. Use Tera Stellar and get stellar results. I've seen the light, Tera Stellar Caly is the next big thing. Boots NP with Psychic stab is the best set currently imo, you can for the same set on hyper offensive teams.

Talking about The Turtle? Is it really worth the hype its getting? I think it is. Haven't used it much but from what I did end up using, it's pretty nice. We get a good spinner and Tera Starstorm does wonders. Decent overall stats. Good overall, can see it becoming even better as the meta progresses.

Both are niche mons I think. Can work good on webs but probably need extra support like screens. Often when you end up using either of them, you question yourself - "Can I just not run Kora as my dragon?" Which is valid enough. But niche mons overall.

Deoxys-Speed gives us a counter lead to Ribombee so it's good.

I really thought Lunala was going to be him. Loses to Scale Shot Kora which is sad. The 4x weakness to ghost and dark definitely makes it a lot uncommon on structures since Knock-Off NDM, Shadow Claw Arceus, and Caly are all very omnipresent.

Some fun teams I managed to prepare:

Teams:

https://pokepast.es/715161804b2202bb

That's it for my personal opinions and observations on the meta folks! Hope you agree with them and like my teams. Feel free to disagree with anything if you have other opinions, you can always DM me on discord or PS.

 

[Rose]

Hello! I thought I'd share some observations and thoughts relating to the new metagame. I've not played it much, so this post is probably pretty shallow, but this thread isn't very active, and I thought someone might as well post something. I also decided to quickly make role compendium half way through writing this, so I'll append that to this post, and hopefully it'll be somewhat useful.

Thoughts on Some New and Returning Pokemon

Possible Set(s)

Defensive (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sunsteel Strike
- Knock Off
- Morning Sun

Bulky Dragon Dance (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Knock Off / Earthquake
- Morning Sun

Offensive Dragon Dance (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Steel / Psychic / Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Photon Geyser / Stone Edge

Necrozma-DM is the best new addition to the metagame. It's great defensively, taking on Pokemon like Zacian-C, Arceus-Fairy, Kyurem-B, Extreme Killer Arceus, Eternatus, and Deoxys-A to varying degrees; offering useful utility via Stealth Rock and Knock Off, which severely hinders Pokemon that switch into Necrozma-DM like Ho-Oh, Ting-Lu, and Skeledirge; and benefiting from increased Morning Sun recovery courtesy of Koraidon's seemingly omnipresent sun. It can also easily win games with a bulky Dragon Dance set by using the Pokemon it checks as setup fodder or even foes like Koraidon and Ho-Oh if it Terastallizes into a Fire-type. 120 Speed EVs will likely be standard to outspeed Calyrex-S at +2, but as with the defensive set, the rest are relatively flexible. It can chose bewteen Knock Off for the aforementioned utility as well as its ability to threaten Pokemon like Lunala and Earthquake, which leaves it worse off against Ho-Oh but hits Pokemon like Zacian-C, opposing Necrozma-DM, Miraidon, Eternatus, and Toxapex harder. I imagine offensive Dragon Dance sets, which can chose between Photon Geyser to hit Pokemon like Skeledirge, Arceus-Water, and Kyogre and Stone Edge to OHKO Ho-Oh, will also work quite well on hyper offense teams, which appreciate Necrozma-DM's ability to help against Zacian-C.

Possible Set(s)

Defensive Pivot (Ho-Oh) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 SpD or 252 HP / 204 Atk / 40 SpD / 12 Spe
Impish / Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Earthquake / Recover
- Whirlwind

Ho-Oh unfortunately lost Thunder Wave and Defog in Gen 9, leaving it without a valuable tool against Pokemon like Eternatus and Calyrex-S and leaving AG with extremely scarce hazard removal options, but that won't stop it from flying high. It's an amazing pivot that checks or soft checks a multitude of Pokemon, including Choice Scarf Koraidon, Calyrex-S, Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM, Extreme Killer Arceus, Calm Mind Arceus-Fairy, Zacian-C, and setup Arceus-Ground (or at the very least mandates it runs a Rock-type move). Between Sacred Fire's high burn chance, Brave Bird's good neutral coverage, and Whirlwind racking up entry hazard damage, Ho-Oh is also difficult to switch into, especially if it adopts a more offensive EV spread. Earthquake 2HKOes Miraidon and lets offensive Ho-Oh 2HKO Eternatus, while Recover lets Ho-Oh stay in longer against foes it checks. Tera Fairy grants Ho-Oh a valuable immunity to Koraidon's Outrage and Scale Shot and removes its weaknesses to attacks like Zacian-C's Wild Charge, Miraidon's Electro Drift, and Arceus-Ground's Power Gem. 40 Special Defense EVs let Ho-Oh survive a +1 Astral Barrage from Choice Specs Calyrex-S, and 12 Speed EVs let it outrun Landorus-T. This is the point where I might as well also mention that Ho-Oh forms a popular and effective defensive core with Necrozma-DM and Ting-Lu; together, the three can deal with threats like opposing Necrozma-DM, Calyrex-S, Koraidon, Zacian-C, and Miraidon pretty well while not being too passive.

Possible Set(s)

Double Dance (Terapagos) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Tera Shift
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe or 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Tera Starstorm
- Dark Pulse
- Rapid Spin / Rock Polish

Choice Specs (Terapagos) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tera Shift
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 212 HP SpA / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tera Starstorm
- Dark Pulse
- Power Gem
- Rapid Spin

Terapagos is a bit disappointing but not terrible. Double Dance Terapagos is alright on more offensive teams, being a setup sweeper that improves the Calyrex-S matchup and potentially provides utility via Rapid Spin, but it struggles to break past common Pokemon like Ting-Lu and Ho-Oh, and it can't even use Terastallization to break through them (or change its defensive profile), as the STAB boost it gets on Tera Starstorm actually decreases when Terastallizing. Dark Pulse lets Terapagos touch Calyrex-S without having to Terastallize, and 56 Speed EVs let the former Pokemon outspeed the latter at +2. 252 Speed EVs with a Timid nature could potentially be used to let it outspeed everything up to Calyrex-S after using Rapid Spin only once, but this sacrifices a lot of bulk. Terapagos can potentially use a Choice Specs sets on more balanced teams to take advantage of Tera Starstorm being completely unresisted when it Terastallizes and cleave through foes, but this is obviously hogs your use of Terastallization. Here it can opt for Power Gem to OHKO Ho-Oh and 44 Speed EVs to outpace Pokemon like uninvested Kyogre and Ho-Oh.

Possible Set(s)

Defensive (Lunala) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shadow Shield
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Moonblast
- Moonlight

Lunala is another victim of the lack of transfer moves, most notably losing Defog and Roar, which makes it struggle to find a useful fourth move. Defensive Lunala is also worse than it initially appears, being easily beaten by Scale Shot Koraidon and having trouble against Shadow Claw Arceus, Knock Off Necrozma-DM, and even Choice Scarf Koraidon, but it's still a decent check to Pokemon like Zacian-C, Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground, non-Knock Off Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM, and Zekrom. Tera Fairy is pretty mandatory to block Scale Shot and remove Lunala's Shadow Claw and Knock Off weaknesses.

Possible Set(s)

Entry Hazard Lead (Deoxys-Speed) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark / Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Psycho Boost / Knock Off
- Taunt

Deoxys-S is a very effective entry hazard lead; its high Speed practically ensures it can get at least one layer of hazards up to enable its offensive teammates and lets it shut down slower opposing leads like Glimmora and Ribombee with Taunt. This is a pretty one-dimensional, self-explanatory Pokemon that'll find itself on many hyper offense teams, and I've been writing for too long already, so I'll just leave it at that


Thoughts on Some Existing Pokemon

Possible Set(s)

Calyrex-Shadow @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Astral Barrage
- Grass Knot

Tera Stellar is an interesting new mechanic that boosts all of a Pokemon's moves, but the boost only applies to the first move of each type used after Terastallizing and is only 1.2x for moves that weren't originally STAB. The Pokemon that takes advantage of this the best is likely Calyrex-S, which (to a limited extent) can reap the benefits of multiple different Tera types while retaining its Extreme Speed immunity. Notably, Tera Stellar enables +2 Calyrex-S to OHKO Ting-Lu after a layer of Spikes with Grass Knot, OHKO Ho-Oh and defensive Arceus formes with Astral Barrage, and deal massive damage to Extreme Killer Arceus with Psyshock.

Possible Set(s)

Eternatus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 96 HP / 236 SpD / 176 Spe / 212 HP or 212 HP / 252 SpD / 44 Spe
Tera Type: Fairy / Water / Steel
Timid / Calm Nature
- Dynamax Cannon
- Flamethrower / Dragon Tail
- Recover
- Toxic / Toxic Spikes

Eternatus @ Power Herb / Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Steel / Fire / Dragon
Modest / Timid Nature
- Meteor Beam / Sludge Bomb
- Dynamax Cannon
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Recover / Agility

In addition to checking Kyogre, somewhat hindering Calyrex-S and Koraidon, absorbing Toxic Spikes, and annoying foes via phazing and spreading poison, defensive Eternatus now checks Ho-Oh and Arceus-Water, improving its usefulness. Additionally, offensive Eternatus sets appreciate the regained access to Meteor Beam, which threatens to OHKO Ho-Oh and somewhat improves its issues with lacking in power. partly pesters Calyrex-S and Koraidon

Possible Set(s)

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Fairy
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Judgment
- Recover
- Stealth Rock / Ice Beam / Taunt / Calm Mind

Despite its issues with sun and the prevalence of Wild Charge Zacian-C, Arceus-Water has shown that it's now one of the top Arceus formes for its ability to effectively take on two new dangerous Pokemon in Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM and Ho-Oh with its bulk, its resistances, Will-O-Wisp, and Splash Plate Judgment. As before, it also does well against foes like Extreme Killer Arceus, Choice Scarf Koraidon, Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground, and Choice Scarf Kyogre.

Possible Set(s)

Arceus-Dark @ Dread Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Poison
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Foul Play
- Recover
- Taunt / Stealth Rock

Arceus-Dark is another defensive Arceus forme that got better with the new additions. In addition to checking Pokemon like Extreme Killer Arceus and Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground and soft checking Calyrex-S, it too can take on Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM with its high bulk and super effective, STAB-boosted Foul Play.


One Arceus forme that didn't get better is Arceus-Fairy, which is probably the Pokemon with the biggest dip in viability. Calm Mind sets are troubled by Necrozma-DM and Ho-Oh, two excellent Fairy-resistant Pokemon that are even commonly paired together, and defensive sets now face harsher competition with other defensive Arceus formes.


AG DLC 2 Role Compendium

With a couple of exceptions, I stuck to using new Pokemon and Pokemon ranked B or higher on the current VR. I'll update this if anyone has any suggestions, if a certain Pokemon or set turns out to be completely terrible, or when the VR gets updated next.

Counterplay to Offensive Threats
Arceus Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Arceus-Fairy Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Arceus-Ground (Calm Mind) Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Arceus-Ground (Dragon Dance) Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Arceus-Water Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Calyrex-S Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Deoxys-A Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Eternatus Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Giratina-O Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Ho-Oh Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Koraidon Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Kyogre Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Kyurem-B Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Miraidon Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Necrozma-DM Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Terapagos Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Zacian-C Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Zekrom Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

General Roles
Defensive Pokemon
Physically defensive:
Specially defensive:

Entry Hazard Setters
Spikes:
Stealth Rock:
Sticky Web:
Toxic Spikes:

Revenge Killers


Support
Dual screens:
Knock Off:

Wallbreakers and Setup Sweepers
Physical:
Special:
Mixed:

Thanks for reading!

 

[Pigbeeef]

Hello! I thought I'd share some observations and thoughts relating to the new metagame. I've not played it much, so this post is probably pretty shallow, but this thread isn't very active, and I thought someone might as well post something. I also decided to quickly make role compendium half way through writing this, so I'll append that to this post, and hopefully it'll be somewhat useful.

Thoughts on Some New and Returning Pokemon

Possible Set(s)

Defensive (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sunsteel Strike
- Knock Off
- Morning Sun

Bulky Dragon Dance (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Knock Off / Earthquake
- Morning Sun

Offensive Dragon Dance (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Steel / Psychic / Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Photon Geyser / Stone Edge

Necrozma-DM is the best new addition to the metagame. It's great defensively, taking on Pokemon like Zacian-C, Arceus-Fairy, Kyurem-B, Extreme Killer Arceus, Eternatus, and Deoxys-A to varying degrees; offering useful utility via Stealth Rock and Knock Off, which severely hinders Pokemon that switch into Necrozma-DM like Ho-Oh, Ting-Lu, and Skeledirge; and benefiting from increased Morning Sun recovery courtesy of Koraidon's seemingly omnipresent sun. It can also easily win games with a bulky Dragon Dance set by using the Pokemon it checks as setup fodder or even foes like Koraidon and Ho-Oh if it Terastallizes into a Fire-type. 120 Speed EVs will likely be standard to outspeed Calyrex-S at +2, but as with the defensive set, the rest are relatively flexible. It can chose bewteen Knock Off for the aforementioned utility as well as its ability to threaten Pokemon like Lunala and Earthquake, which leaves it worse off against Ho-Oh but hits Pokemon like Zacian-C, opposing Necrozma-DM, Miraidon, Eternatus, and Toxapex harder. I imagine offensive Dragon Dance sets, which can chose between Photon Geyser to hit Pokemon like Skeledirge, Arceus-Water, and Kyogre and Stone Edge to OHKO Ho-Oh, will also work quite well on hyper offense teams, which appreciate Necrozma-DM's ability to help against Zacian-C.

Possible Set(s)

Defensive Pivot (Ho-Oh) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 SpD or 252 HP / 204 Atk / 40 SpD / 12 Spe
Impish / Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Earthquake / Recover
- Whirlwind

Ho-Oh unfortunately lost Thunder Wave and Defog in Gen 9, leaving it without a valuable tool against Pokemon like Eternatus and Calyrex-S and leaving AG with extremely scarce hazard removal options, but that won't stop it from flying high. It's an amazing pivot that checks or soft checks a multitude of Pokemon, including Choice Scarf Koraidon, Calyrex-S, Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM, Extreme Killer Arceus, Calm Mind Arceus-Fairy, Zacian-C, and setup Arceus-Ground (or at the very least mandates it runs a Rock-type move). Between Sacred Fire's high burn chance, Brave Bird's good neutral coverage, and Whirlwind racking up entry hazard damage, Ho-Oh is also difficult to switch into, especially if it adopts a more offensive EV spread. Earthquake 2HKOes Miraidon and lets offensive Ho-Oh 2HKO Eternatus, while Recover lets Ho-Oh stay in longer against foes it checks. Tera Fairy grants Ho-Oh a valuable immunity to Koraidon's Outrage and Scale Shot and removes its weaknesses to attacks like Zacian-C's Wild Charge, Miraidon's Electro Drift, and Arceus-Ground's Power Gem. 40 Special Defense EVs let Ho-Oh survive a +1 Astral Barrage from Choice Specs Calyrex-S, and 12 Speed EVs let it outrun Landorus-T. This is the point where I might as well also mention that Ho-Oh forms a popular and effective defensive core with Necrozma-DM and Ting-Lu; together, the three can deal with threats like opposing Necrozma-DM, Calyrex-S, Koraidon, Zacian-C, and Miraidon pretty well while not being too passive.

Possible Set(s)

Double Dance (Terapagos) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Tera Shift
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe or 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Tera Starstorm
- Dark Pulse
- Rapid Spin / Rock Polish

Choice Specs (Terapagos) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tera Shift
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 212 HP SpA / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tera Starstorm
- Dark Pulse
- Power Gem
- Rapid Spin

Terapagos is a bit disappointing but not terrible. Double Dance Terapagos is alright on more offensive teams, being a setup sweeper that improves the Calyrex-S matchup and potentially provides utility via Rapid Spin, but it struggles to break past common Pokemon like Ting-Lu and Ho-Oh, and it can't even use Terastallization to break through them (or change its defensive profile), as the STAB boost it gets on Tera Starstorm actually decreases when Terastallizing. Dark Pulse lets Terapagos touch Calyrex-S without having to Terastallize, and 56 Speed EVs let the former Pokemon outspeed the latter at +2. 252 Speed EVs with a Timid nature could potentially be used to let it outspeed everything up to Calyrex-S after using Rapid Spin only once, but this sacrifices a lot of bulk. Terapagos can potentially use a Choice Specs sets on more balanced teams to take advantage of Tera Starstorm being completely unresisted when it Terastallizes and cleave through foes, but this is obviously hogs your use of Terastallization. Here it can opt for Power Gem to OHKO Ho-Oh and 44 Speed EVs to outpace Pokemon like uninvested Kyogre and Ho-Oh.

Possible Set(s)

Defensive (Lunala) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shadow Shield
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Moonblast
- Moonlight

Lunala is another victim of the lack of transfer moves, most notably losing Defog and Roar, which makes it struggle to find a useful fourth move. Defensive Lunala is also worse than it initially appears, being easily beaten by Scale Shot Koraidon and having trouble against Shadow Claw Arceus, Knock Off Necrozma-DM, and even Choice Scarf Koraidon, but it's still a decent check to Pokemon like Zacian-C, Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground, non-Knock Off Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM, and Zekrom. Tera Fairy is pretty mandatory to block Scale Shot and remove Lunala's Shadow Claw and Knock Off weaknesses.

Possible Set(s)

Entry Hazard Lead (Deoxys-Speed) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark / Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Psycho Boost / Knock Off
- Taunt

Deoxys-S is a very effective entry hazard lead; its high Speed practically ensures it can get at least one layer of hazards up to enable its offensive teammates and lets it shut down slower opposing leads like Glimmora and Ribombee with Taunt. This is a pretty one-dimensional, self-explanatory Pokemon that'll find itself on many hyper offense teams, and I've been writing for too long already, so I'll just leave it at that


Thoughts on Some Existing Pokemon

Possible Set(s)

Calyrex-Shadow @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Astral Barrage
- Grass Knot

Tera Stellar is an interesting new mechanic that boosts all of a Pokemon's moves, but the boost only applies to the first move of each type used after Terastallizing and is only 1.2x for moves that weren't originally STAB. The Pokemon that takes advantage of this the best is likely Calyrex-S, which (to a limited extent) can reap the benefits of multiple different Tera types while retaining its Extreme Speed immunity. Notably, Tera Stellar enables +2 Calyrex-S to OHKO Ting-Lu after a layer of Spikes with Grass Knot, OHKO Ho-Oh and defensive Arceus formes with Astral Barrage, and deal massive damage to Extreme Killer Arceus with Psyshock.

Possible Set(s)

Eternatus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 96 HP / 236 SpD / 176 Spe / 212 HP or 212 HP / 252 SpD / 44 Spe
Tera Type: Fairy / Water / Steel
Timid / Calm Nature
- Dynamax Cannon
- Flamethrower / Dragon Tail
- Recover
- Toxic / Toxic Spikes

Eternatus @ Power Herb / Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Steel / Fire / Dragon
Modest / Timid Nature
- Meteor Beam / Sludge Bomb
- Dynamax Cannon
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Recover / Agility

In addition to checking Kyogre, somewhat hindering Calyrex-S and Koraidon, absorbing Toxic Spikes, and annoying foes via phazing and spreading poison, defensive Eternatus now checks Ho-Oh and Arceus-Water, improving its usefulness. Additionally, offensive Eternatus sets appreciate the regained access to Meteor Beam, which threatens to OHKO Ho-Oh and somewhat improves its issues with lacking in power. partly pesters Calyrex-S and Koraidon

Possible Set(s)

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Fairy
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Judgment
- Recover
- Stealth Rock / Ice Beam / Taunt / Calm Mind

Despite its issues with sun and the prevalence of Wild Charge Zacian-C, Arceus-Water has shown that it's now one of the top Arceus formes for its ability to effectively take on two new dangerous Pokemon in Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM and Ho-Oh with its bulk, its resistances, Will-O-Wisp, and Splash Plate Judgment. As before, it also does well against foes like Extreme Killer Arceus, Choice Scarf Koraidon, Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground, and Choice Scarf Kyogre.

Possible Set(s)

Arceus-Dark @ Dread Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Poison
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Foul Play
- Recover
- Taunt / Stealth Rock

Arceus-Dark is another defensive Arceus forme that got better with the new additions. In addition to checking Pokemon like Extreme Killer Arceus and Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground and soft checking Calyrex-S, it too can take on Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM with its high bulk and super effective, STAB-boosted Foul Play.


One Arceus forme that didn't get better is Arceus-Fairy, which is probably the Pokemon with the biggest dip in viability. Calm Mind sets are troubled by Necrozma-DM and Ho-Oh, two excellent Fairy-resistant Pokemon that are even commonly paired together, and defensive sets now face harsher competition with other defensive Arceus formes.


AG DLC 2 Role Compendium

With a couple of exceptions, I stuck to using new Pokemon and Pokemon ranked B or higher on the current VR. I'll update this if anyone has any suggestions, if a certain Pokemon or set turns out to be completely terrible, or when the VR gets updated next.

Counterplay to Offensive Threats
Arceus Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Arceus-Fairy Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Arceus-Ground (Calm Mind) Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Arceus-Ground (Dragon Dance) Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Arceus-Water Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Calyrex-S Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Deoxys-A Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Eternatus Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Giratina-O Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Ho-Oh Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Koraidon Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Kyogre Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Kyurem-B Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Miraidon Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Necrozma-DM Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Terapagos Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Zacian-C Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

Zekrom Counterplay
Defensive:
Offensive:

General Roles
Defensive Pokemon
Physically defensive:
Specially defensive:

Entry Hazard Setters
Spikes:
Stealth Rock:
Sticky Web:
Toxic Spikes:

Revenge Killers


Support
Dual screens:
Knock Off:

Wallbreakers and Setup Sweepers
Physical:
Special:
Mixed:

Thanks for reading!

Bros using koraidon to counterplay arc fairy? Edit: where gliscor, it is super good at spike stacking and can be really unkillable so i think it should be on this list, or is there something i did not see?

 

[eavo]

Here's my favourite Pokemon from DLC-2 that no one has talked about yet. Kyurem-B is a surprisingly good wallbreaker thanks to its ability and excellent attack. After a single Dragon Dance or Scale Shot, it is able to outspeed everything except for Calyrex-S, which cannot revenge kill it anyways, thanks to the given bulk. Kyurem-B being weak to rocks is however quite troublesome; being easily picked off by Extreme Killer Arceus and Koraidon doesn't help its case either. Kyurem-B is therefore, best used on Hyper Offense structures where offensive counterplay to it is limited. I have also included a team below so you can try using it for yourself. :)

set + calc

Kyurem-Black @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Teravolt
Tera Type: Fire / Ghost / Electric
EVs: 180 Atk / 140 SpD / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Scale Shot
- Fusion Bolt

252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 140 SpD Kyurem-Black: 331-390 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Team

https://pokepast.es/189495c660c79c6b

 

[Xynix]

baton pass is back besties

you are highly encouraged to bring this to kickoff!! dm me on ps or discord if you have any questions

i was going to post this when i peaked but psong started showing up on the ladder and i really cannot be assed to deal with that in a gen without mr mime

rmt coming soon :)

 

[clare]

baton pass is back besties



View attachment 584987

you are highly encouraged to bring this to kickoff!! dm me on ps or discord if you have any questions

i was going to post this when i peaked but psong started showing up on the ladder and i really cannot be assed to deal with that in a gen without mr mime

rmt coming soon :)

The team is fun but I just got mauled by an Urshifu-RS at the bottom of the ladder lol. Surging Strikes 2HKOes the entire team, breaks Smogon's Focus Sash, and hits through Espathra's Protect. Unless I'm missing something the only out is to click Minimize on Drifblim and pray?

 

[Pigbeeef]

The team is fun but I just got mauled by an Urshifu-RS at the bottom of the ladder lol. Surging Strikes 2HKOes the entire team, breaks Smogon's Focus Sash, and hits through Espathra's Protect. Unless I'm missing something the only out is to click Minimize on Drifblim and pray?

battle armor perserrker works after a bunch of boosts, but neutralizing gas works too I guess.

 

[Xynix]

The team is fun but I just got mauled by an Urshifu-RS at the bottom of the ladder lol. Surging Strikes 2HKOes the entire team, breaks Smogon's Focus Sash, and hits through Espathra's Protect. Unless I'm missing something the only out is to click Minimize on Drifblim and pray?

baton pass always sucks to play with at bottom ladder because it is reliant on having an understanding of what moves your opponent might have on their mons. bring yourself up to 1500 at least with an HO team or something before using it.

against urshifu water you minimize and activate sitrus berry unburden then strength sap for multiple attempts at misses. once it misses, you can minimize again.

evasion is a very good anti-bullshit measure in general. urshifu, surprise scarf taunts/encores, and more can all be stunted via evasion.

 

[clare]

baton pass always sucks to play with at bottom ladder because it is reliant on having an understanding of what moves your opponent might have on their mons. bring yourself up to 1500 at least with an HO team or something before using it.

against urshifu water you minimize and activate sitrus berry unburden then strength sap for multiple attempts at misses. once it misses, you can minimize again.

evasion is a very good anti-bullshit measure in general. urshifu, surprise scarf taunts/encores, and more can all be stunted via evasion.

yeah I see what you mean. do you usually lead Espathra, Smearagle, or Drifblim? In the past I've always led Sash Drifblim and fished for evasion boosts, but there's always the concern that they lead with something that OHKOes non-Sash Drifblim which puts you in a poor position...

 

[Xynix]

yeah I see what you mean. do you usually lead Espathra, Smearagle, or Drifblim? In the past I've always led Sash Drifblim and fished for evasion boosts, but there's always the concern that they lead with something that OHKOes non-Sash Drifblim which puts you in a poor position...

almost always lead espathra. the team needs speed more than anything.

lead smeargle only if you’re convinced they will lead something that will outspeed and ohko espathra even at +1 (usually scarfers), or if you’re convinced smeargle will outspeed their lead

leading drifblim is only for very very rare cases lol please dont do that unless you have a very clear reason

also lets not turn this whole thread into bp discussion we can do this when my rmt is up

 

[Glory]

it's 3 AM and I can't sleep so here I am.


Best mon ever. Literally never drop this guy he's too good. Stop using rocks it's a massive waste, put them on Waterceus, Groundceus or Ting-Lu instead.

Hide

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 140 SpD / 120 Spe
Impish Nature
- Moonlight
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike / Photon Geyser (only run photon with eq)
- Knock Off / Earthquake


impish lets you live ada scarf koraidon flare blitz, rest in spdef because spdef ndm busted.

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Life Orb
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Psychic / Fire / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser / Stone Edge / Rock Blast
- Earthquake

Very good mon, checks an absolute ton of stuff and is a pain to switch into itself. Offensive sets are good too, though not quite as much as defensive. Run this guy on most teams.

Hide

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 40 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Whirlwind
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird

Ho-Oh @ Choice Band / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Atk / 12 Def / 40 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Earthquake
- Recover (lets you eat Knock and still be good)

I can't be asked to remember what the spreads do. Some people run spdef but that sounds cringe so I'm not putting it here. And yes, Shiny is important.

Not as necessary as in DLC1 but still very good. You don't need the immediate offensive power of SD nearly as much now so you can run Bulk Up and be a bitch better win condition.


Waterceus is him. This guy is very very very good. Pain to switch into and it checks a lot of stuff very well.

Hide

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Fairy / Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Will-O-Wisp
- Stealth Rock / Calm Mind / Perish Song
- Recover

Etern is actually pretty good now. Zacian fell off a cliff so you can run Shadow Ball for Caly and I won't call you a loser. Checks Ho-oh, Kyogre, Waterceus, and Fairyceus (lol) and can soft check Koraidon and Caly.

Hide

Eternatus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Steel / Dark / Water
EVs: 72 HP / 100 Def / 64 SpA / 216 SpD / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball
- Dynamax Cannon
- Recover

once again I can't be bothered to remember what the spread does, you're on your own.

Bad.


Just run Koraidon.


Kinda cool but generally you would rather run a defensive Arceus or Ho-oh and do the same thing.


Doggo stocks in shambles. Not too good since it struggles with Ho-oh, NDM, Waterceus, Groundceus, Caly, and scarf Koraidon, and generally every team should have at least two of those, and maybe as much as four.


Just don't bother on 99% of teams. NDM and Ho-oh are everywhere and you have major 4MSS trying to deal with them. NDM is a much more splashable dragon resist and Ho-oh is a much more splashable Koraidon check.

Koraidon, Caly, Groundceus, and Ting-Lu are all pretty much the same (though Groundy should run Power Gem on CM now) so I don't really feel like discussing them.

now that I have educated you on the correct opinions, here's a few teams:

 

[clare]

I wasn't even aware that the formes had different movepools but it seems like Calyrex-S gets Roar now. It also gets some good physical moves, but what are you doing with physical moves and 85 Atk?

 

[Pigbeeef]

it's 3 AM and I can't sleep so here I am.


Best mon ever. Literally never drop this guy he's too good. Stop using rocks it's a massive waste, put them on Waterceus, Groundceus or Ting-Lu instead.

Hide

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 140 SpD / 120 Spe
Impish Nature
- Moonlight
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike / Photon Geyser (only run photon with eq)
- Knock Off / Earthquake


impish lets you live ada scarf koraidon flare blitz, rest in spdef because spdef ndm busted.

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Life Orb
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Psychic / Fire / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser / Stone Edge / Rock Blast
- Earthquake

Very good mon, checks an absolute ton of stuff and is a pain to switch into itself. Offensive sets are good too, though not quite as much as defensive. Run this guy on most teams.

Hide

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 40 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Whirlwind
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird

Ho-Oh @ Choice Band / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Atk / 12 Def / 40 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Earthquake
- Recover (lets you eat Knock and still be good)

I can't be asked to remember what the spreads do. Some people run spdef but that sounds cringe so I'm not putting it here. And yes, Shiny is important.

Not as necessary as in DLC1 but still very good. You don't need the immediate offensive power of SD nearly as much now so you can run Bulk Up and be a bitch better win condition.


Waterceus is him. This guy is very very very good. Pain to switch into and it checks a lot of stuff very well.

Hide

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Fairy / Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Will-O-Wisp
- Stealth Rock / Calm Mind / Perish Song
- Recover

Etern is actually pretty good now. Zacian fell off a cliff so you can run Shadow Ball for Caly and I won't call you a loser. Checks Ho-oh, Kyogre, Waterceus, and Fairyceus (lol) and can soft check Koraidon and Caly.

Hide

Eternatus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Steel / Dark / Water
EVs: 72 HP / 100 Def / 64 SpA / 216 SpD / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball
- Dynamax Cannon
- Recover

once again I can't be bothered to remember what the spread does, you're on your own.

Bad.


Just run Koraidon.


Kinda cool but generally you would rather run a defensive Arceus or Ho-oh and do the same thing.


Doggo stocks in shambles. Not too good since it struggles with Ho-oh, NDM, Waterceus, Groundceus, Caly, and scarf Koraidon, and generally every team should have at least two of those, and maybe as much as four.


Just don't bother on 99% of teams. NDM and Ho-oh are everywhere and you have major 4MSS trying to deal with them. NDM is a much more splashable dragon resist and Ho-oh is a much more splashable Koraidon check.

Koraidon, Caly, Groundceus, and Ting-Lu are all pretty much the same (though Groundy should run Power Gem on CM now) so I don't really feel like discussing them.

now that I have educated you on the correct opinions, here's a few teams:

To be honest, ho oh is not really a check to koraidon all the time, not all ho oh run tera fairy and some prediction needs to be made when trying to phaze it out. assuming you are max physdef, and koraidon is at +2 with 252atk with loaded dice scale shot, then there is a quite a chance that korai can ohko ho oh as seen in this calc: +2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Ground Ho-Oh: 435-515 (104.5 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
not all ho oh run max physdef, and physdef doesnt even ohko back with brave bird. if you give up tera ground, you will be shredded by miraidon.
although scale shot is only 5 hits 50 percent of the time, checking a pokemon only around 50 percent or less times tells me that this is not a check, therefore i believe that fairyceus or other bulky fairies are required to check koraidon.
(ekiller? what? i thought koraidon was a ghost type?)

nowadays i never see choiced koraidon on ladder, so i am excluding that as fairyceus can check that too.

 

[Death By Defeat]

Here are some sets for commonly used in Pokemon in Sv Anything Goes Most of these Pokemon are valuable to the metagame Especially koraidon, Ho-Oh, and Calyrex Shadow.



Koraidon is just such a good Pokemon probably the second best Pokemon for the format SVAG, and it's ability to revenge kill, Sweep, or Just break teams is insane. What makes it so good is that no matter what set your using Koraidon will always pack a big punch. Some common sets for this Pokemon are.

Koraidon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Outrage
- Flare Blitz

Koraidon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Low Kick
- Outrage
- Flare Blitz

Koraidon @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Low Kick
- Flare Blitz

Koraidon @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Scale Shot
- Low Kick

What makes Koraidon so good is not only its power, but its ability to pivot out With U-Turn, Scale shot Sets can be devastating to many teams without a way to force it out, or knock it out Tera Ghost makes it much more difficult to be revenged killed by Arceus.

Then there's Ho-Oh It can force a Koraidon to switch out with its defensive fairy set which can stop sweeps, Defensive sets are also good since they can switch into a choice scarf Koraidon which allows it to see the move it uses and since choice scarf locks in Koraidon into the first move it uses which allows Ho-Oh to switch into A Pokemon that resist Koraidon's used move while taking minimal damage since its ability Regenerator will heal Ho-Oh on switch out, Ho-Oh Defensive sets can swap into Non-SuperCell slam sets of Arceus Since, Ho-Oh's move sacred fire has a 50% chance to burn not only that, but it gets whirlwind which can swap a Arceus out. What also makes It even better is Ho-Oh's Specially Defensive Sets that can swap Into Calyrex-Shadow And Use whirlwind on it to stop sweeps, or it can also two shot Calyrexshadow With Sacred Fire, or Brave Bird I would recommend using Sacred fire since that way you won't be taking any recoil damage while your up Against a Calyrex-Shadow, I wouldn't recommend switching Ho-Oh into A Dusk Mane Necrozma, Since Dusk Mane gets Knock Off, and without Ho-Oh having boots it's basically dead weight since Stealth Rocks are common. Here are some Ho-Oh sets I would recommend.

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird
- Recover
- Sacred Fire

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Recover

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Impish Nature
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Earthquake

 

[Glory]

This thread is very dead so I might as well post some thoughts on the current meta.

Personal VR

S+
Calyrex-S
Ho-Oh

S
Necrozma-DM
Ting-Lu
Koraidon

S-
Arceus-Ground
Arceus
Eternatus

A+
Miraidon
Arceus-Water
Arceus-Fairy

A
Kyogre
Deoxys-S
Landorus-T

A-
Zacian-C
Ribombee
Giratina-O
Deoxys-A

???
Dialga
Chi-Yu

Ho-Oh is so fucking ridiculous it's frankly comical. It does so much in one slot that it's very difficult to replicate what it does even with multiple mons. I personally think defensive sets are quite middling, they're too passive and can give up a ton of momentum while the only thing it does to the mons its supposed to check is Whirlwind them out or fish for a Sacred Fire burn. Offensive sets, though, are absolutely incredible; in exchange for no longer pretending you're a Koraidon check you become one of the metagame's most threatening wallbreakers. The only truly consistent (good) switch-in to offensive Ho-Oh is Arceus-Water, which has a slew of problems and can't even threaten Ho-Oh when the sun it loves so much is active. Choice Band is a whole other beast, it gets fucking ridiculous calcs on pretty much everything (good luck pivoting to Miraidon when it's OHKOed by EQ and takes more than half from Tera Flying) and it still gets plenty of opportunities to come in because Ho-Oh is just naturally defensively apt.


A+ is pretty contentious, I'm aware, but I simply don't agree with the hype. It's absolutely stupid to switch into but there aren't many team structures it actually fits on, and I find they almost invariably end up weak to Eternatus, or—even worse—cope too hard for it and become weak to everything else. If we were to rank mons based on how much they impact the meta then Miraidon would be much higher, and Calyrex-S and Koraidon would end up several tiers above everything else, but that's simply not how we do things so Miraidon is sitting in A+.


Hyper offense is good and Deoxys-S is the best lead. Sticky Web is nice and all until your Caly is dead and you have 4 mons that can't actually break through the mons they're supposed to. Deo-S is consistent into every team and every other lead, since with only a little investment you can 2HKO even max HP Ribombee with Psycho Boost. Spikes are just much more consistent at getting results than webs.


Landorus-T is just an incredible pivot for offense with a ton of utility, checking a bunch of threats, most notably Koraidon but NDM and DD Groundceus too, and filling the role of Stealth Rock user that is often hard to do without sacrificing a critical move slot on Ting-Lu. Bulky U-turn users are absolutely non-existent outside of Lando so there's very little competition for its role.


In a meta with Miraidon, Koraidon, and Caly-S, Deo-A still manages to be the (second) hardest thing to switch into in the game. Often it only takes a single correct prediction and using Low Kick on a Ting-Lu coming in and entire teams crumple before it. Even with its complete dearth of defensive value, it still manages to carve a niche for itself that nothing else can truly replicate.


Two Choice Specs breakers I've been experimenting with recently with shockingly good results. Dialga is very similar to Miraidon in terms of how difficult it is to switch into it, but its typing and bulk means that it can check Eternatus and E-Killer, which Miraidon would never attempt. With specs it is incredibly powerful and can 2HKO the entire meta, and is the only wallbreaker of its caliber that can safely 1v1 Miraidon without Tera (Specs Caly barely comes up short.) Chi-Yu, on the other hand, is a fucking monster. In sun, the only thing that can pivot into Chi-Yu's Fire-type attacks is Kyogre, Ho-Oh and Eternatus are both 2HKOed without Tera, while Miraidon has favorable odds to get OHKOed by Overheat and Koraidon is always dead. That's not all, even despite its pitiful bulk it still has some defensive use because it isn't even 2HKOed by Astral Barrage, making it the only offensive threat in the meta that doesn't really have anything to fear from the ghost horse, and funniliy enough, it forces the standard Choice Scarf Koraidon to lock into Outrage to OHKO it because Low Kick is only 20 Base Power. I'm still refraining from ranking them now because I want to give them a bit more time to prove themselves, but these two are definitely strong.

 

[Pigbeeef]

This thread is very dead so I might as well post some thoughts on the current meta.

Personal VR

S+
Calyrex-S
Ho-Oh

S
Necrozma-DM
Ting-Lu
Koraidon

S-
Arceus-Ground
Arceus
Eternatus

A+
Miraidon
Arceus-Water
Arceus-Fairy

A
Kyogre
Deoxys-S
Landorus-T

A-
Zacian-C
Ribombee
Giratina-O
Deoxys-A

???
Dialga
Chi-Yu

Ho-Oh is so fucking ridiculous it's frankly comical. It does so much in one slot that it's very difficult to replicate what it does even with multiple mons. I personally think defensive sets are quite middling, they're too passive and can give up a ton of momentum while the only thing it does to the mons its supposed to check is Whirlwind them out or fish for a Sacred Fire burn. Offensive sets, though, are absolutely incredible; in exchange for no longer pretending you're a Koraidon check you become one of the metagame's most threatening wallbreakers. The only truly consistent (good) switch-in to offensive Ho-Oh is Arceus-Water, which has a slew of problems and can't even threaten Ho-Oh when the sun it loves so much is active. Choice Band is a whole other beast, it gets fucking ridiculous calcs on pretty much everything (good luck pivoting to Miraidon when it's OHKOed by EQ and takes more than half from Tera Flying) and it still gets plenty of opportunities to come in because Ho-Oh is just naturally defensively apt.


A+ is pretty contentious, I'm aware, but I simply don't agree with the hype. It's absolutely stupid to switch into but there aren't many team structures it actually fits on, and I find they almost invariably end up weak to Eternatus, or—even worse—cope too hard for it and become weak to everything else. If we were to rank mons based on how much they impact the meta then Miraidon would be much higher, and Calyrex-S and Koraidon would end up several tiers above everything else, but that's simply not how we do things so Miraidon is sitting in A+.


Hyper offense is good and Deoxys-S is the best lead. Sticky Web is nice and all until your Caly is dead and you have 4 mons that can't actually break through the mons they're supposed to. Deo-S is consistent into every team and every other lead, since with only a little investment you can 2HKO even max HP Ribombee with Psycho Boost. Spikes are just much more consistent at getting results than webs.


Landorus-T is just an incredible pivot for offense with a ton of utility, checking a bunch of threats, most notably Koraidon but NDM and DD Groundceus too, and filling the role of Stealth Rock user that is often hard to do without sacrificing a critical move slot on Ting-Lu. Bulky U-turn users are absolutely non-existent outside of Lando so there's very little competition for its role.


In a meta with Miraidon, Koraidon, and Caly-S, Deo-A still manages to be the (second) hardest thing to switch into in the game. Often it only takes a single correct prediction and using Low Kick on a Ting-Lu coming in and entire teams crumple before it. Even with its complete dearth of defensive value, it still manages to carve a niche for itself that nothing else can truly replicate.


Two Choice Specs breakers I've been experimenting with recently with shockingly good results. Dialga is very similar to Miraidon in terms of how difficult it is to switch into it, but its typing and bulk means that it can check Eternatus and E-Killer, which Miraidon would never attempt. With specs it is incredibly powerful and can 2HKO the entire meta, and is the only wallbreaker of its caliber that can safely 1v1 Miraidon without Tera (Specs Caly barely comes up short.) Chi-Yu, on the other hand, is a fucking monster. In sun, the only thing that can pivot into Chi-Yu's Fire-type attacks is Kyogre, Ho-Oh and Eternatus are both 2HKOed without Tera, while Miraidon has favorable odds to get OHKOed by Overheat and Koraidon is always dead. That's not all, even despite its pitiful bulk it still has some defensive use because it isn't even 2HKOed by Astral Barrage, making it the only offensive threat in the meta that doesn't really have anything to fear from the ghost horse, and funniliy enough, it forces the standard Choice Scarf Koraidon to lock into Outrage to OHKO it because Low Kick is only 20 Base Power. I'm still refraining from ranking them now because I want to give them a bit more time to prove themselves, but these two are definitely strong.

No sir, CB Ho-Oh is not a real set, if rocks are up you just die to any incoming attack.
Eternatus is nowhere near S tier In Ubers, so neither is it good here with an extra mon to give it a hard time, the matchup it has with bikes and the psychic type Calyrex shadow just sucks.
the chi-yu take may be reasonable since it resists both of the moves that caly usually runs, so that's a bonus.
for dialga, uhhhhhhhh I dunno.........
hazards are not as good as it usually is actually in my opinion, the only real defogger in this tier does not like astral barrage so people just run 5boots users, while for webs, webs can slow down a bunch of threats to a good level for your Calyrex to sweep. even when running 5 boots, one member has to be scarf to be speed control, which means vulnerable to spikes.
PS: post elo
EDIT: just surpassed the tier leader :)
EDIT2: I might have been wrong about hazards...

 

[PrimalKyogre]

No sir, CB Ho-Oh is not a real set, if rocks are up you just die to any incoming attack.

CB Ho-Oh is, in fact, a real set. Stealth Rocks are quite uncommon on Balance/BO, as they’re only used by Landorus-T and occasionally support Arceus. Band Ho-Oh gets in very early and very often, the damage is already done before rocks are up. Ho-Oh still gets a few hits in against bulkier Pokémon if rocks happen to come up.

Eternatus is nowhere near S tier In Ubers, so neither is it good here with an extra mon to give it a hard time, the matchup it has with bikes and the psychic type Calyrex shadow just sucks.

What Ubers does is not our problem. Eternatus being at No.8 S- is very consistent with AGWL usage statistics. Its matchup against the 3 Pokémon you mentioned really isn’t so bad, as Koraidon and most Calyrex-S hate Toxic Spikes. Additionally, Eternatus can use Tera to threaten any of the 3 early-game. Eternatus is an incredibly support Pokémon for common threats like Ho-Oh, Arceus-Water, and Arceus-Fairy - its matchup against Pokémon that fail to even switch in on it is insignificant.

for dialga, uhhhhhhhh I dunno.........

Don’t think I have to prove that replying “uhhhhhhhh I dunno.........” demonstrates any sort of counterargument, especially when reasonable points were raised.

PS: post elo
EDIT: just surpassed the tier leader :)

Quoting this saves me the time to write a counter, this truly speaks for itself.

 

[Pigbeeef]

CB Ho-Oh is, in fact, a real set. Stealth Rocks are quite uncommon on Balance/BO, as they’re only used by Landorus-T and occasionally support Arceus. Band Ho-Oh gets in very early and very often, the damage is already done before rocks are up. Ho-Oh still gets a few hits in against bulkier Pokémon if rocks happen to come up.

What Ubers does is not our problem. Eternatus being at No.8 S- is very consistent with AGWL usage statistics. Its matchup against the 3 Pokémon you mentioned really isn’t so bad, as Koraidon and most Calyrex-S hate Toxic Spikes. Additionally, Eternatus can use Tera to threaten any of the 3 early-game. Eternatus is an incredibly support Pokémon for common threats like Ho-Oh, Arceus-Water, and Arceus-Fairy - its matchup against Pokémon that fail to even switch in on it is insignificant.

Don’t think I have to prove that replying “uhhhhhhhh I dunno.........” demonstrates any sort of counterargument, especially when reasonable points were raised.

Quoting this saves me the time to write a counter, this truly speaks for itself.

I guess i learn something new every day...
I am also curious on what is different here from Ubers, since etern is ranked lower here.
wait, isn't ting-lu also a rocker? or is it better with spikes.

 

[Fc]

ssnl is over and after that + agwl I had a lot of time to think about building in this meta, much more than before since I primarily play SS when I can in tournaments. Gonna drop my personal vr too and some thoughts on the meta since I liked glory's post and this tier is pretty fun to me rn.

Rough Personal VR

S Rank

S+

Calyrex-S

S

Koraidon
Ho-Oh
Necrozma-DM

S-

Arceus
Arceus-Fairy

A Rank

A+

Ting-Lu
Miraidon
Arceus-Ground
Zacian-C

A

Arceus-Water
Kyogre
Eternatus

A-

Glimmora
Ribombee
Gliscor


B Rank

B+

Deoxys-S
Arceus-Dark

B

Giratina-O
Landorus-T

B-

Clodsire
Kingambit
Kyurem-B
Wo-Chien
Deoxys-A
Skeledirge
Basculegion-M
Hatterene
Blissey
Dondozo
Mandibuzz

C Rank

Arceus-Ghost
Arceus-Grass
Arceus-Steel
Calyrex-I
Chien-Pao
Flutter Mane
Grimmsnarl
Rayquaza
Ditto
Great Tusk
Alomomola
Arceus-Poison
Groudon
Toxapex


D Rank

Chi-Yu
Giratina
Kyurem-W
Smeargle
Skarmory
Terapagos
Zekrom
Lunala

Not a 100% accurate list but just smth I roughly threw together from the main VR we have and shifted things around. Few random thoughts of stuff I've noticed.

- This guy is insane, not completely sure it's third it could even be second, but I think the pressure korai exerts is really hard to overlook. Regardless I can very clearly see the arguments for second, ho-oh checks so many things and is arguably the best glue in the tier even if you consider caly-s to be somewhat of a glue mon. With tera you can pretty much do anything and a lot of teams end up just having ho-oh switch in ho-oh since taking sacred is so hard, which has led to band ho-oh popping up more which is also a cool set but really exploitable by HO.

- I'm a big gliscor believer, spikes are broken knock off is broken and it's one of the best mons that just sit on standard ho-oh etern ting scarf caly type balances people spam a lot. You really struggle to pressure it when you can't hard caly bc of knock and ho-oh can't try to sit back against it fearing knock or toxic. We played a gliscor mirror in ssnl finals and a lot of the turns are just them staring at each other because more defensive builds just really can't deal with it, so it's one of the best mons vs opposing bulky structures. Good into some offensive teams too since they can't set up and you live a zacian behemoth at +3 to put it into rk range.

- These 4 + the 2 above form the stall team I'm most confident in rn, I used it in ssnl finals and it won. I built it during agwl finals we just never brought it, but I think stall isn't bad rn. The tier is so strong that you really have to play well, any wrong steps vs things like taunt miraidon, sd koraidon, np caly, or combinations of those can be really hard to break through. CB ho-oh also just kinda farms but it also takes like 55 from killing bliss so you can try to use that but otherwise it's gg. Still a stronger team style than it's been before in SV and I think SS too, not amazing but a strong mu fish.

- Couple mons I rose that I just wanted to bring up, I think glimm and bee are the 2 best HO leads, I don't like deo too much since it doesn't have the same level of support as tspikes or webs force at the beginning of the game imo and webs are the best so glimm being second to spin webs makes sense. The fish is also lowkey slept on I think, caly puts a lot of pressure on the ghost resists and tera blast fighting from either opens up the other very well especially on webs. Strong mon just hard to get going. Farce showed me the light on hatt TR is lowkey good if you don't fully commit to it, like you have smth koraidon type speed in the back in case it goes down as well as a mon like kingambit which can priority outside of terrain for speed control. Hatt is essential to those and being able to fuel stuff like CB caly-i is strong af rn especially vs HO teams.

- Some mons I dropped more than others compared to main vr, I'm just not a big believer in many of them. Added deo-s just to explain bc of the reasons above, I think it's not in top 2 best leads rn so I put it below them but it's still usable. Deo-a is a paper mon, strong af but hard to use especially when ho-oh can pivot on even LO psycho boost and it is slower than all the good scarfers. Gira I find is hard to defog with sometimes and it doesn't have recovery so it just tries to do a lot, if you wanna win a hazard war just set your own and spam knock off. Dirge is fraud it just takes 2 hits and dies vs everything that isn't non-tera blast zacian, groudon is an even bigger fraud just use gliscor it actually does nothing, pex is bad walls nothing and etern is better at tspikes, and lunala is just bad in caly meta if you wanna overwhelm on HO w ghosts use the fish or dd ghostceus.

Overall I like this tier a lot more than previous iterations of SV, I think ho-oh being the big glue really helps teams with flexibility since you can work around having a way to outplay most threats. Also just nothign too centralizing, only arc really hits around / surpasses 100% usage but as seen in agwl caly korai and ho-oh all don't so you can run a lot of varied things, like Gliscor and another thing I used a fair bit in ssnl which was DD ghostceus. Not the best but not unviable, and I think having stuff like that where you can bring creativity and not autolose bc you can outplay is nice, so I like where the meta's at rn. I expect in agpl bulky builds to be punished a bit more, some teams scouts in agwl were like 95% ho-oh ting support arc stuff which the meta has answers for, might start seeing more offensive or more anti fat techs like cb ho-oh and gliscor to be seen. Will be fun regardless so I'm looking forward to agpl.

 

[Pigbeeef]

ssnl is over and after that + agwl I had a lot of time to think about building in this meta, much more than before since I primarily play SS when I can in tournaments. Gonna drop my personal vr too and some thoughts on the meta since I liked glory's post and this tier is pretty fun to me rn.

Rough Personal VR

S Rank

S+

Calyrex-S

S

Koraidon
Ho-Oh
Necrozma-DM

S-

Arceus
Arceus-Fairy

A Rank

A+

Ting-Lu
Miraidon
Arceus-Ground
Zacian-C

A

Arceus-Water
Kyogre
Eternatus

A-

Glimmora
Ribombee
Gliscor


B Rank

B+

Deoxys-S
Arceus-Dark

B

Giratina-O
Landorus-T

B-

Clodsire
Kingambit
Kyurem-B
Wo-Chien
Deoxys-A
Skeledirge
Basculegion-M
Hatterene
Blissey
Dondozo
Mandibuzz

C Rank

Arceus-Ghost
Arceus-Grass
Arceus-Steel
Calyrex-I
Chien-Pao
Flutter Mane
Grimmsnarl
Rayquaza
Ditto
Great Tusk
Alomomola
Arceus-Poison
Groudon
Toxapex


D Rank

Chi-Yu
Giratina
Kyurem-W
Smeargle
Skarmory
Terapagos
Zekrom
Lunala

Not a 100% accurate list but just smth I roughly threw together from the main VR we have and shifted things around. Few random thoughts of stuff I've noticed.

- This guy is insane, not completely sure it's third it could even be second, but I think the pressure korai exerts is really hard to overlook. Regardless I can very clearly see the arguments for second, ho-oh checks so many things and is arguably the best glue in the tier even if you consider caly-s to be somewhat of a glue mon. With tera you can pretty much do anything and a lot of teams end up just having ho-oh switch in ho-oh since taking sacred is so hard, which has led to band ho-oh popping up more which is also a cool set but really exploitable by HO.

- I'm a big gliscor believer, spikes are broken knock off is broken and it's one of the best mons that just sit on standard ho-oh etern ting scarf caly type balances people spam a lot. You really struggle to pressure it when you can't hard caly bc of knock and ho-oh can't try to sit back against it fearing knock or toxic. We played a gliscor mirror in ssnl finals and a lot of the turns are just them staring at each other because more defensive builds just really can't deal with it, so it's one of the best mons vs opposing bulky structures. Good into some offensive teams too since they can't set up and you live a zacian behemoth at +3 to put it into rk range.

- These 4 + the 2 above form the stall team I'm most confident in rn, I used it in ssnl finals and it won. I built it during agwl finals we just never brought it, but I think stall isn't bad rn. The tier is so strong that you really have to play well, any wrong steps vs things like taunt miraidon, sd koraidon, np caly, or combinations of those can be really hard to break through. CB ho-oh also just kinda farms but it also takes like 55 from killing bliss so you can try to use that but otherwise it's gg. Still a stronger team style than it's been before in SV and I think SS too, not amazing but a strong mu fish.

- Couple mons I rose that I just wanted to bring up, I think glimm and bee are the 2 best HO leads, I don't like deo too much since it doesn't have the same level of support as tspikes or webs force at the beginning of the game imo and webs are the best so glimm being second to spin webs makes sense. The fish is also lowkey slept on I think, caly puts a lot of pressure on the ghost resists and tera blast fighting from either opens up the other very well especially on webs. Strong mon just hard to get going. Farce showed me the light on hatt TR is lowkey good if you don't fully commit to it, like you have smth koraidon type speed in the back in case it goes down as well as a mon like kingambit which can priority outside of terrain for speed control. Hatt is essential to those and being able to fuel stuff like CB caly-i is strong af rn especially vs HO teams.

- Some mons I dropped more than others compared to main vr, I'm just not a big believer in many of them. Added deo-s just to explain bc of the reasons above, I think it's not in top 2 best leads rn so I put it below them but it's still usable. Deo-a is a paper mon, strong af but hard to use especially when ho-oh can pivot on even LO psycho boost and it is slower than all the good scarfers. Gira I find is hard to defog with sometimes and it doesn't have recovery so it just tries to do a lot, if you wanna win a hazard war just set your own and spam knock off. Dirge is fraud it just takes 2 hits and dies vs everything that isn't non-tera blast zacian, groudon is an even bigger fraud just use gliscor it actually does nothing, pex is bad walls nothing and etern is better at tspikes, and lunala is just bad in caly meta if you wanna overwhelm on HO w ghosts use the fish or dd ghostceus.

Overall I like this tier a lot more than previous iterations of SV, I think ho-oh being the big glue really helps teams with flexibility since you can work around having a way to outplay most threats. Also just nothign too centralizing, only arc really hits around / surpasses 100% usage but as seen in agwl caly korai and ho-oh all don't so you can run a lot of varied things, like Gliscor and another thing I used a fair bit in ssnl which was DD ghostceus. Not the best but not unviable, and I think having stuff like that where you can bring creativity and not autolose bc you can outplay is nice, so I like where the meta's at rn. I expect in agpl bulky builds to be punished a bit more, some teams scouts in agwl were like 95% ho-oh ting support arc stuff which the meta has answers for, might start seeing more offensive or more anti fat techs like cb ho-oh and gliscor to be seen. Will be fun regardless so I'm looking forward to agpl.

I dunno how is fairyceus higher up than the omnipresent ting-lu, as fairyceus either cant beat Ho-Oh or NDM depending on if its using power gem or earth power and can be exploited by powerful special attackers of the tier but that's just my opinion. ting-lu however, checks a huge chunk of the tier like Calyrex shadow, giratina, deoxys formes (sometimes) eternatus, or other special attackers. but then again this is just a rough estimate according to you and I am not as experienced as the tier leader, so if I am wrong, correct me.
EDIT: And yes, please do correct me if I got some wrong stuff in my head, but I still think ting-lu feels mandatory on anything that is not stall/HO.