Oh hey it's been 3000 years since this thread saw any activity but if something's happening I wanna get in on it, gonna start with replying to what UD and Sunny have expertly articulated before throwing in my own two cents bc courtesy and all that.
Time for my once-a-year post in the Viability Rankings thread!
I'm bumping this because I want to propose something potentially controversial. I think Tyranitar and Gengar should be the only S-rank Mons, and Celebi and Suicune should drop to A (somewhere, I don't really care).
To me, Tyranitar almost gets better by the day, simply because of the absurd number of viable movesets it can use. It has the best movepool in the game, and the stats to use literally every single one of those moves (not counting Tackle and shit). It's indescribably good by this virtue alone. Seriously hop on ladder and check out the number of insane Tar movesets you'll see within your first 10 or so high ladder games. All of them are good too! Will not spoil anything in particular, for the sake of their owners who'd probably like to keep them secret, but trust me on this one.
Similarly, Gengar seems to be getting better as well. About a year ago I was really down on that Mon, since Pursuit Tar was being soooooo spammed at the time. It still is, but necessity is the mother of all invention, and thus Gengar started developing ways of beating Tar on its own. There are a number of ways it does this, but I won't list them all. Anyway, WoW is still incredibly hard to switch into, the Speed tier is just as good as it has ever been, that coverage, the way it has *just* enough bulk... It's the whole package. Absurdly good and centralizing Mon. Every single ADV team is weak, perhaps extremely so, to at least one version of Gengar. I'd argue that Tyranitar is the best Mon in ADV, but Gengar is the hardest to switch into.
on the topic of sand hurting the viability of a lot of stuff, in my opinion if there was an A- rank, I wouldn't mind Snorlax being pushed down to it; it's kind of Suicune in that its most dangerous set, requires Magneton, and rapid spin support. Other sets like mixlax have steadily become less and less effective, Curse+Boom isn't as effective at trading with Skarmory as it used to be; my gripe with MixLax especially is that unless you catch Gengar on a switch with Shadow Ball, you're really just gonna get will-o-wisp'ed and basically be carrying dead weight. I also don't like how Zapdos under sand(especially if its not rest Zap), basically hurries MixLax into self-destructing much quicker than it'd like. Mixlax is usually thrown on to more physically oriented teams as a sponge but vs stuff like Zap/+1 Offensive Cune Hydro with sand, it really is just a whole slot dedicated to trading with boom.
I've always thought that Gengar is the best pokemon at abusing spikes, so I'm glad to see that other people think its amazing. Stuff like HP:Grass Gar becoming more popular has helped it counteract the trend of Pursuit Tyranitar being everywhere, while also letting it kill Swampert without having to eat Torrent Hydro Pump from higher ranges. Hypnosis is also amazing at cheesing teams right now, especially if you get the chance to use Hypnosis as Pursuit Tar comes in(even better with Spikes down) there are teams that you might just clean from that point on, which frankly is pretty ridiculous. Add to that the fact bulky gar takes a CB Aerodactyl Rock Slide(quite comfortably actually), and if running 252 HP/112 sp.def(Taunt+WoW with this is brutal) can switch out of a tyranitar's Pursuit in order to trap it with Dugtrio, and that only adds to the package. Gar with spikes down and Hypnosis or Taunt/WoW can also severely pressure Blissey(can just boom on it too I guess), great mon.
Going back to the spike bait thing, imo the only real way to not be spike bait right now, is either Magneton+Claydol; run full out offensive teams(like Hera/CB Gross/Mence/DD Taunt Tar/Endeavor Pert/Aero or CM Spam) or no spike offenses(Zapdos/Offensive Celebi/MixMence/DD Tar/CB Aero/Pert); spamming taunts with Gar/Skarm/Tar/Weez also helps; stuff like the more recent Fire Blast Blissey also obviously helps more defensive teams stop spikes from coming up too easily.
I think these sentiments are pretty accurate honestly. Bear in mind there's a slightly different perspective to the average smogon tour player talking here - because the only major tournaments on smogon to feature adv - spl, classic and wcop - have all been over for a while, and again the nature of those tournaments led to people relying more on playing their opponents or trying to create new techs for surprise value rather than looking for the strategies that will be consistent across literally hundreds of games. Meanwhile on PP (where adv tournaments are year-round and feature a lot of players who are close to the top) and on the ladder (constant action and high ladder is dominated by players like UD, Asta, Dan and other proven competitors) the metagame is...I don't know about evolving, but it is condensing around a handful of strategies and teams based on abusing said strategies. Why? Because the hundreds of games played prove that said teams and strategies are the most consistent in winning games.
Gengar's evolution was only really a matter of time - HP Grass had caught on as a tool to do more damage to Pert before PursuitTar truly proliferated (thanks UD!), and people were experimenting with SDef sets all the way back in April if I recall correctly. So yeah, it was natural that the two techs would combine into one set and though it doesn't beat PursuitTar singlehandedly it's a lot easier to do so with it, especially with the Spikes support that Gar capitalises on. Meanwhile just about everything else also gets hammered big-time - Taunt+WoW which is on the rise screws with Bliss, denying it healing and forcing it to take stupid amounts of damage from Wisp chip as well as sand + spikes, WoW utterly ruins Lax, Meta and Physical Tar while also chipping PursuitTar into Dug range which blows, it can still boom through Bliss, Lax, Regice, Fire Punch provides a way through non-Skarm steels that can otherwise handle boltbeam coverage, Taunt also compromises defensive teams' counterplay in a lot of ways. Gar is great. No other words needed.
Sand's also a crucial part in the metagame in that its denying leftovers and chipping mons without them is a big part of what makes it hard to be a Suicune / Snorlax / even like a Zapdos or Celebi in this day and age. Tyranitar provides sand so it's guaranteed a place at the top - that said despite its issues it is a defining offensive force in the tier because of sheer versatility and the fact that just about every set is a team-breaker in its own right. In terms of sets, as UD mentioned there are a literal fuckton (although out of decency I will only mention the ones that you could find within half an hour or surfing the forums) - the half a dozen dd variants with radically different counters, cb which though forgotten is stupidly dangerous when played correctly, subpunch which invalidates a lot of the tss teams used by forcing them to either trade mons for a chance to rk you or try and guess your coverage moves (which threatens to backfire in their face like if they assume you're crunch+fthrower and then you swat Pert with HP Grass), bkc's 4 atks lefties variant which is also quite brutal assuming you have other methods to exert pressure on grounds and skarm (not that it doesn't on its own or anything, but still), taunt toxic (not as common but I expect to see this set make a giant comeback really soon) which helps counteract skarmblisspert cores by denying skarm the ability to do anything, making it easier to hammer bliss, and crippling pert for aero. Tyranitar also utterly capitalises on spikes as well because of how easily it forces switches and threatens to punish switchins with coverage options and whatnot. Nothing poses as much a threat as Tyranitar does offensively, and despite the rise of Gengar Tar is still, if only marginally, better than it (and thereby its the best mon in the tier).
Every defensive Celebi set has become horrendous Skarmory bait. Like, way worse than Swampert Spikes bait (isn't this the number one complaint of Swampert, lol?). It is still obviously an excellent Mon and people started tailoring its spreads to beat other OP Mons in the tier (shoutout
Astamatitos and
Fear for the SpDef spread), but man, it brings so many other unintended weaknesses to any given team that you need to support it in order for him to function properly. Isn't that by definition NOT an S-rank Poke? Sure, it's still a real bitch to kill, but it doesn't offer nearly enough offensive and defensive presence simultaneously in my opinion. Offensive sets are still excellent, as are the Baton Pass ones. But those sets have longevity issues and also worry about anything fat, fast, or physical (Aero, Dug, Mence, Flygon, Tar, and Meta all have a way to either force it out or beat it outright). Yes it is amazing at staying alive and supporting shit with Heal Bell, Leech Seed, passing Subs or Boosts etc., but I think it's just way too Spikes weak to be considered for S-rank.
This probably has a point - I mean in this day and age a Celebi without a Magneton in the wings is super-rare, and Celebi can hit Skarm with Leech Seed to open it up for other offensive mons, but it gives up spikes in the process which sucks (Pert is still worse spikes bait, though, lol hydro barely 3hkos if you don't account for protect + 20% miss chance and Celebi doesnt get fucked over by Toxic in the same way Pert does). The unintended weaknesses thing is kinda unfair - skarm is the only real weakness that arises since all the fast physical mons you mentioned get annoyed by leech / sometimes don't pack hp bug (and lets be real without hp bug or crits they shouldn't be able to get through Celebi unless the Celebi player messes up) and Reflect (which exists! although its a bit underused) makes them all cry. I will concede, though, that it can't provide offensive and defensive presence fully at the same time - you have to pick what you want it to do so its v matchup reliant in that way based on the set you're running, and again, Spikes weak. Sigh. UD's got a point. I concede that Celebi probably isn't S anymore.
Suicune has a different set of problems - not that it isn't Skarm bait too because it is (everything is but Magneton). For me, I really have a hard time justifying the (lack of) longevity on his offensive sets. This is a freaking Suicune. It's not supposed to die! But it always seems to bite the bullet before doing enough work in my opinion. And it's so damn slow. Seriously it takes like a million EVs just to reach a respectable Speed tier on the offensive set. The Substitute set is really scary at times, but it also requires almost the perfect matchup for it to work properly. Defensive ones will always be his best set and only legit chance at sweeping, but those have huuuuge problems with Boomers (Meta and Snorlax basically, but even an Explosion Gengar + anything faster with an Electric move to follow up), they aren't fantastic at switching in on stuff early and mid game with Sand and Spikes in play, and you forfeit momentum as soon as you click Rest. I know that a boosting Suicune that just Rests on your Blissey is extremely terrifying. I've lost to more than my fair share of them in my day. But they require the user to play perfectly in order to work properly. Seriously, one misstep and now you're in range of that MixMence's HP Grass. It's just not a Poke with a lot of room for error in my opinion.
imo defensive Suicune ironically can't be used as a bulky water at all,it is the one water that imo at least provides not too much support to the team in terms of switching into like CB Meteor Mash or CB Rock Slides from Gross/Tar; the best teams for defensive Suicune are probably Magneton+Claydol(possibly even wants Dugtrio+Rain Dance) teams, if only because imo even 1 layer of spikes with Sand down, means more likely than not Suicune will just be resting all game; it's like Snorlax in that it is really spikes vulnerable, and hard to get going under sand. There's a reason why most teams still opt for Swampert(one of the best pivots in the game), instead of the more dangerous(on paper) Suicune. Even teams that on paper have no real Rest CM Cune check, can beat you via rest looping you, with stuff like CB Aerodactyl coming in on the rest turn under sand.If you have to talk of the most effective Suicune set, to me its probably still just offensive CM; but that set is prone to getting Toxic traded on it via Swampert/Skarmory/etc. Set with the most potential upside as stated above is defenitely SubCM, that set under sand though probably has only one good chance to sweep per game, although versus teams that have stuff that it abuses like Leech Celebi or IB+Fire Blast+Toxic Blissey it has chances to get very easy setup/sweeps. More traditional offensive Suicune sets, probably want stuff like Boom Regice/Boom Gengar+Dugtrio to create openings for it(basically some kind of special offense? doesn't have to be CM Spam though);
I think I predicted this a long while ago in this thread (will have to check back), but yeah defensive Cune struggles like nothing else in this metagame. Lack of insta recovery outside of Rest absolutely sucks since Rest gives your opponent two turns to capitalise on you not doing anything, or even allows them to fire off attacks, which forces you to keep clicking rest to stay alive (what Sunny meant by 'rest loops' and it sucks because despite the fact pressure's in your favour and burning through your opponent's pp, a single crit or rock slide flinch leaves cune dead in the water, and stretching out the battle only worsens your odds of survival in that sense). I still think Cune is the last S though - because offensive sets, which were in a decline before, have shot back up with a vengeance. Yes people get 'traded Toxic' on which sucks but if you've played smart you should have been able to grab a cm beforehand and smack the offending skarm / pert / whatever for 60%, and the types of teams cune slots into should be able to keep the pressure on from there. It's not a sweeper so much as a hole puncher - think BKC made a post about it in the dpp viability ranking thread but it applies just as much here, and if played properly its absolutely monstrous - to give some perspective, at +3 offensive is doing a minimum of 47% to the standard Blissey with Hydro, and if you have sand down that can be enough to kill it with rolls and whatnot. Try leading it, it's absolutely monstrous to face for any opponent.
Also wanna give a shoutout to subcune which imo is the best set even if sunny and ud downplay it, yes sand and spikes chip sucks and yes it only gets 'one chance at sweeping lol bad set', this restriction actually shouldn't apply if you've added the necessary support which is nothing too extensive or too far out of the ordinary. The security sub gives you when boosting up and blasting - holding off status attempts from bliss, leech from celebi (so you can boost and Ice Beam its face off), random booms which a lot of offensive teams crutch on to not lose to cune, allowing you to take on aero without fear of getting flinched out...its just really nice in general. As mentioned above +3 cune has a 70% chance at 2hkoing bliss with sand down and if you have sub its much easier to get to +3 with it, especially against UDBliss which forgoes stoss for whatever reason. Even if it has stoss you should be able to get +3 and kill bliss - even if cune goes down in the process, the damage is done, and that's omitting the fact that most teams without bliss just get run through or are forced to sac to create opportunities for rking which are hugely choreographed (I mean come on people letting meta die to hydro only to bring in aero and face Cune what else are you trying for) and can be taken advantage of if its still the early-mid game which is where Cune shines imo. Also, despite the fact its an offensive set, it still takes random mashes, mixmence hp grasses, anything from tar with gusto (those attacks leave their mark, true, but Cune still forces them out and sets up with ease). If longevity really bothers you, well, a lot of the good wish users of the tier (Rachi, Mence, Bliss, Jolt) synergise really well with Cune even without Wish. It's not the titan it was but its still a huge threat to a lot of people and a damn good mon and it makes me really annoyed to see how people sleep on it (almost enough to make me prematurely reveal LNXCune...nah, another time, tldr Cune can be a threat even without my whack set)
Since most of this post has just been me restating very obvious points, I want to do something funny. I want to suggest Skarmory for a rank above A but below S(if possible), Skarm has single handedly warped the game, into the Protect+Toxic+Spikes meta we have as of now. There is no distinction between offensive/defensive threats, so if it does become S it'd probably be as a result of how amazing it is defensively. And it is! Skarmory is the best spiker, and a key defensive component as well on many teams; Skarmory between itself, bulky gengar and tyranitar can maintain hazards vs any team, and this is big reason why this is hands down the engine room of any TSS used in ADV atm. Want to mention that bulky mie without Magneton isn't very good at keeping hazards off, and that offensive mie is still the best set. The fact that it can spin on that(one time a game probably) is a bonus. Heck on certain teams(BKC's famous Cele Skarm Mag comes to mind) even WITH a magneton on the other side, you can potentially set up a situation to end up with three layers, which is kind of crazy frankly.
I honestly don't know what to add to this, I mean, Skarm is obviously one of the faces of the metagame because of its solid typing and absurd bulk - to give an example, I can cite all the five million games I've seen where a skarm user decided it was a good idea to toxic a mixtar / mixmence and take fire blast for 70% in the process, then abuse tect and solid switching around to get back to full while said mixmon bled out. It's just insane - I mean it takes a good player to maximise the impact Skarm has but even a total noob can pick it up and get some decent mileage out of it because of how intuitive it is to play - spike, toxic when you feel like, tect if you're worried about getting boomed on / surprised / you just want a little lefties so you can take the next attack more comfortably, whirlwind when you have three layers down, and of course the spikes it lays are really stupidly annoying to deal with and contribute to why everyone thinks Skarm is overpowered (I think it is because though there are things that catch it / punish it I honestly don't want to have to run SD Hera and Magneton on every team to avoid losing to it and even if you run those two skarm still laid down two layers). Spinners exist, yes, but Claydol and Starmie get toxiced and beaten down in the long run, also they both require a lot of support to function on a team because of their inherent liabilities. Forretress is toxic immune but gets spinblocked by the all-powerful Gengar and requires even more support to work properly, and again, as with the hera + mag example, its not worth running them on every team to avoid being skarm weak and if it were worth then it'd be a sign of how obnoxiously monstrous skarm is (like I'm pretty sure if skarm was banned or just ceased to exist all of mag, starmie and claydol would vanish with it).
The fact that Toxapex is S rank in SM for 'defensive qualities alone' also is a bit of a precedent for why I argue Skarm for S because imo Skarm in ADV is a much better mon than Pex in SM, it centralises the metagame around Spikes and defensive teams like nothing else while simultaneously fitting onto any team archetype because of the value of spikes and how it manages to exert a stupidly huge amount of pressure on just about any team. Even Mag's not guaranteed to beat it because Sub HP Ground exists (while its a terrible af set that makes skarm significantly worse vs any team without a Magneton, the fact that it utterly screws over Mag teams makes it usable. Sigh) and again if its laid down layers then its done its job. Nothing is as obnoxiously effective game in, game out as skarmory, and avoiding being Skarmory weak can only be done by opening yourself up to the things that abuse the spikes it lays. S for sure.
Jirachi could also be a bit higher now, superachi is back with a bang(no it doesn't need to be on a CM Spam); while sets like BSlam+Fire Punch Sp.Def(thanks
Astamatitos , this provides amazing support with out being too big of Spike bait vs Skarmory, and completely stops forry from using spikes vs you) , or the fear Toxic+Tect phys def(as featured in steelwork by
Foggi ,this set literally sits on Swampert, and softens up bulky waters for a late game clean via either of Aerodactyl/Tyranitar). Even the traditional Wish/CM Psychic set is amazing vs bulkier traditional forry TSS' when paired with Dugtrio.
Might not even need that though, Toxic allows it to kiil the best counter on that style of team(traditionally some pursuit tar variant); older versions of this style of team used TWave Blissey, which actually was extremely helpful by allowing you to just trade Seismic Tosses, and then bring Swampert in on the Wish turn to pressure Jirachi, but with Toxic,Seismic Toss,Ice Beam being the most common set on Blissey(and sometimes CM) this set can definitely shine again. Heck even Psychic/Wish/HP:Grass/CM sounds very good vs that sort of team; stuff like Jirachi+P2+heracross, is also something that could be used more if only to hedge vs dugtrio TSS' which is coming back again.
JIRACHI MY BOY! Anyways yeah this has been a long time coming as well, in the age of Gengar it's only natural that Jirachi, one of its few 'checks' would rise, aside from that its extremely versatile a la Tyranitar except it has both offensive and defensive variants - aside from the long list of sets sunny mentioned, there's also the wish+3 attacks set that was on a Fear time a while ago, and mixed + cb which are also very underrated in this meta but shred with the right support. Jirachi fills a lot of defensive cogs for a team - it borderline checks electrics (everything short of modest zap and if it switches in on a non tbolt move and has wish it usually wins), checks Gengar solidly, sponges Aero rock slides, can sorta check Heracross via speed and stab psychic, checks cmspam by boosting up alongside, wishtect sets can sit on just about everything and at the same time it's super threatening offensively because of coverage and whatnot - also it provides a nice skarm countermeasure because wish negates spikes damage and you force skarm out, its not perfect but it is something and its the icing on the cake that such a good mon gets that good matchup too. It also has very few consistent answers that can deal with everything it can do, basically only like...jolly cb flygon is guaranteed to beat it and that only switches in on superachi's psychic once while also being invalidated by Toxic. Offensive versatility plus the things it covers defensively...yeah, there's really nothing like Jirachi in this metagame (maybe Metagross which shares typing and has similarish defensive / offensive utility and its also a top dog of the metagame, but the two function totally differently in practice). Send it the hell up.
Edit: I know most people are like 'lol stats' but I do want to point to the usage stats being compiled for Pokemon Perfect's ADV World Championship, where Jirachi has 58 uses out of 111 games (meaning its on more than 1/4 of teams), and it has a winrate of 69%. 69%, which is by far the highest winrate for any mon with more than 10 uses. If that doesn't mean something than I don't know what does. Link -
http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forum...v-1u-l-world-championship-1-usage-stats.4677/
I think Pert's a tad low as well; it might be spike bait, but it is by far the best pivot in the game(I think 158 speed or so might be good on Swampert right now, get the jump on MixGross[great if you're running a forry team], be faster than all but
UD 's Blissey set, and even be faster than slower MixTar's); I want to say that Endeavor Swampert is a beast as well(lot frailer then though...);
I want to finish off this wall of text with a nomination of my own; I think Moltres should be at least B or low A(not sure if this is a thing); it's a solid filler on forry teams, prevents spikes by virtue of its STAB and in general with a sub+wow set is very troublesome for anything but blissey to really deal with comfortably. Being faster than Heracross is great too, too many defensive teams crumble the moment they are facing down a +2 Heracross(I guess a lot of these sort of teams carry dug for stuff like this).
EDIT: if Venusaur hasn't been added yet, that's definitely a B mon at least.
Sadly in the age of spikes and sdef gar I've started to lose faith in Pert because Skarm and Gar are everywhere and threaten to punish it while Tar have gotten a ton smarter about handling it. Also Toxic Bliss screws with Pert like you would not believe, in fact the fact that everything and its mother is carrying Toxic just really blows for Pert because its longevity goes down the drain. It beats individual mons but rarely do I see it stop a whole team (keep in mind that if your opponent's bringing ultra passive skarmbliss stall like sunny's team (skarm bliss milo clay dug gar) then pert's going to do absolutely nothing vs it) and its very lurable especially if you pick off its support cogs (which really boils down to just trapping skarm). It's still absolutely monstrous as a mon but the meta is not very conducive to it.
Moltres is actually really nice in this metagame, I concur. It takes advantage of Spikes really well while screwing over offense with wisp and whatnot (makes great support for forry teams because sometimes they crutch a little much on pert to beat physical offense on its own), and does a lot of damage with fire blast (even bliss can't sit in on it forever because it gets wisped and worn down, also sub, try Toxic on Molt too because that wreaks havoc on a lot of things) It has issues with Electrics and Cune and sometimes its a little hard to find it a spot to cut loose ingame but its still really sick. Fires as a whole are really slept on...yeah send this up to B. Venu's also B worthy, think other people have summed up its pros and cons already so I won't bother. Also I think all of Regirock / Umbreon / Medicham / Houndoom / Weezing and a few other things should be considered for B (considered because I'm not quite sure and want to hear other people's thoughts, but imo they all have solid niches and have prospered in the current metagame).
Also to respond to Triangles I have the Ninjax ADV rankings 2k17, enjoy: (this includes subranks like A+, A- etc because despite what people say about adv not having enough mons I still believe there are clear demarcation lines between the top mons of A and the mid-bottom ones in terms of overall power and whatnot to justify it, bop. If enough people nag me I might add reasoning for these because I'm tired after writing everything above.)
S Rank: Tyranitar, Gengar
S- Rank: Skarmory, Jirachi, Swampert
A+ Rank: Suicune, Metagross, Celebi, Zapdos, Salamence, Blissey
A Rank: Snorlax, Aerodactyl, Dugtrio, Flygon, Heracross
A- Rank: Magneton, Jolteon, Starmie, Claydol
B+ Rank: Milotic, Porygon2, Gyarados, Venusaur, Forretress, Moltres
B Rank: Raikou, Vaporeon, Regice, Cloyster
B- Rank: Regirock, Umbreon, Medicham, Houndoom, Weezing, Alakazam, Camerupt