ggopw
Banned deucer.
I wanted to answer osra but lost basically said everything that was important so ill just add some of my thoughts (btw ik this post is way too big for no actual reason) What I've noticed first was that idk what azu set u used + what evs since something like sitrus avoids 2hkoes and beats stuff like m meta. Im sure there are more but that wasn't even the point also if it uses dive it can beat a lot of things with a double protect(that was 1 of the reasons it was used over meloetta which is even better btw) that means a lot of "counters" would only be counters 75% of the time and i bet u wouldn't use the same percentage for sleep counters or at least ik some people that didn't use that amount.
Anyway that's besides the point as lost said p song completely invalidates stall which is plain stupid and sleep isn't even close to doing something like that also p song was banned in gen6 this was a gen7 list and it's very likely if not certain that vrs would look much different, mons would use different sets and stuff like z perish song to avoid and beat Taunt users would exist. Basically the whole meta would be different but once again besides the point.
Now, yes i said that a lot of sleep users aren't good rn bc of the amount of counters ppl run and in general relying on luck but in no way did i say that bc of that they deserve not to be banned or them being competitive. What i said is we should look at how many counters they have since u can take a lot more cases of pokemon that can be very uncompetitive but aren't used just simply because they don't beat much and they still rely on luck and i don't see anyone complaining about thunder wave ban or those 50% accuracy moves. Sometimes u just have to draw the line and in my opinion that is something like deciding the number of pokemon 1 mon can beat with just luck. I would use something like baton pass in ou ,on who we can all agree made uncompetitive strategies, as an example as it wasn't banned for generations because it wasn't as good and had more counters that u straight up lost to on matchup which is sort of comparable with u losing a game in 1v1 by just picking ur "lead" and other mon straight up countering u it was very gimmicky to say the least (comparing bp and sleep is something i don't want to do and i only want to use it as an example for it being 100% uncompetitive and that's the word that has been used a ton if not spammed in this sleep debate ) and then in sun and moon with the metagame change(less counters) and introduction of new even stronger bp abusers it finally got the ban. Now i may be wrong on this i don't believe i am but u didn't even use that as my argument u talked about a different argument i never said.
Sorry for the wall of text i was just frustrated at someone for using a completely broken strategy that can't compare to sleep in almost anything (u can argue with them both being uncompetitive but I just showed u why that alone can't be ur only argument to compare each other with me using bp as an uncompetitive strategy example that wasn't banned for so long simply because there were other variables besides it being uncompetitive and please don't say oh that is 6v6 so it's completely different as all tiers "strive" to remove uncompetitive aspects of them ) that was banned 3+ years ago(almost instantly banned in sm) and even then not doing it right with poor examples.
Anyway that's besides the point as lost said p song completely invalidates stall which is plain stupid and sleep isn't even close to doing something like that also p song was banned in gen6 this was a gen7 list and it's very likely if not certain that vrs would look much different, mons would use different sets and stuff like z perish song to avoid and beat Taunt users would exist. Basically the whole meta would be different but once again besides the point.
Now, yes i said that a lot of sleep users aren't good rn bc of the amount of counters ppl run and in general relying on luck but in no way did i say that bc of that they deserve not to be banned or them being competitive. What i said is we should look at how many counters they have since u can take a lot more cases of pokemon that can be very uncompetitive but aren't used just simply because they don't beat much and they still rely on luck and i don't see anyone complaining about thunder wave ban or those 50% accuracy moves. Sometimes u just have to draw the line and in my opinion that is something like deciding the number of pokemon 1 mon can beat with just luck. I would use something like baton pass in ou ,on who we can all agree made uncompetitive strategies, as an example as it wasn't banned for generations because it wasn't as good and had more counters that u straight up lost to on matchup which is sort of comparable with u losing a game in 1v1 by just picking ur "lead" and other mon straight up countering u it was very gimmicky to say the least (comparing bp and sleep is something i don't want to do and i only want to use it as an example for it being 100% uncompetitive and that's the word that has been used a ton if not spammed in this sleep debate ) and then in sun and moon with the metagame change(less counters) and introduction of new even stronger bp abusers it finally got the ban. Now i may be wrong on this i don't believe i am but u didn't even use that as my argument u talked about a different argument i never said.
Sorry for the wall of text i was just frustrated at someone for using a completely broken strategy that can't compare to sleep in almost anything (u can argue with them both being uncompetitive but I just showed u why that alone can't be ur only argument to compare each other with me using bp as an uncompetitive strategy example that wasn't banned for so long simply because there were other variables besides it being uncompetitive and please don't say oh that is 6v6 so it's completely different as all tiers "strive" to remove uncompetitive aspects of them ) that was banned 3+ years ago(almost instantly banned in sm) and even then not doing it right with poor examples.
I suggest reading the whole section first and then coming back to parentheses or ig reading them really fast as they are very large and not as important as the main points
Last edited:
