Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[TCTphantom]

Broke: Sleep is not broken.

Woke: Sleep is super cringe and lame.

Legit, what does sleep add to the meta? Amoongus gets to be way more useful due to sleep (which it can cheese a ton with red card)? And then stuff like Lilligant H Darkrai Valiant or Atails can just cheese stuff? I don’t get why people tie themselves in knots over the idea of banning sleep. If we just got it in Gen IX, yall would have banned this before Ape. Its just a dumb lame rng fiesta that takes away skill expression from the game.

Also lol Gliscor isn’t broken.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Like I said before, gliscor is not even close to unkillable. One of the main ways to deal with its hazards is literally a mon that OHKOes it with all of its offensive spinning sets. With the right support, gliscor is easy to deal with. Great Tusk literally comes in and runs both rapid spin AND ice spinner on the same set, so it spins away all of gliscor's hazards while also OHKOing it.

also wtf set are you running on tusk that it ohkos gliscor with ice spinner? the only set I can see that does is Tera Ice, even booster atk doesn't KO. At that point gliscor simply toxics the tusk and it dies to residual damage. saying that tusk beats scor is just wrong.

 

[Conflux123]

also wtf set are you running on tusk that it ohkos gliscor with ice spinner? the only set I can see that does is Tera Ice, even booster atk doesn't KO. At that point gliscor simply toxics the tusk and it dies to residual damage. saying that tusk beats scor is just wrong.

Sorry I meant almost OHKOs.

 

[UnusualBoy]

Do you people think that latios and latias will rise in OU this february?
I see them quite often.

Praying one of them do. We need more dragon representation in the tier, especially Latias since she's only playable in OU.

I've been using Pecharunt and he's a funny trolling guy, he still fears the dark types mostly Gambit, Ting Lu and Darkrai, maybe the ugly cat but she doesn't wanna take a malignant chain. Not sure if it'll stay in OU but he has a niche.

 

[Conflux123]

I agree with YubelVT, Conflux123 I think you completely missed my and his point. The fact that great tusk has ice spinner and can potentially (I say potentially because depending on the sets both are running it ain't even sure OKHO) really does not mean anything. Tons upon tons upon tons of mons can OKHO gliscor, but the problem is that gliscor with a strong team structure behind is just uneahtlhy as fuck because it can just protect scout + switch and take no risk while regenerating fully thanks to poison heal + all of its other perks such as the great defensive typing and near full hazard immunity.

As I said: there could be 100 Good ice types in OU, it wouldn't make gliscor any less broken. The tusk you talking about was in DLC1 and still the majoirty of qualified playerbase decided to ban

Then it becomes what do you ban. If it's the teammates that make gliscor so good, then that's not gliscor being good by itself.

 

[VigilanteV8]

Sorry I meant almost OHKOs.

Almost OHKOs when talking about gliscor literally means NOTHING lol. Countless times I had situations where gliscor was at 20% and just regened all the way up to 80%

 

[Conflux123]

Almost OHKOs when talking about gliscor literally means NOTHING lol

Ice spinner does like 80% to 90%, don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Tio Chico]

Gouging Fire under sun has 0 counterplay.

Tera Fairy + Flash Fire + Air Baloon Heatran. Just joking, sry.

 

[VigilanteV8]

Ice spinner does like 80% to 90%, don't know what you're talking about.

Again, there is not such a thing as an "almost dead" Gliscor. Really the whole point of this mon is that until it is not KOED it always has the opportunity to come back thanks to its broken features. Until Gliscor is at 0% you always run into the risk of it coming back

 

[Conflux123]

Again, there is not such a thing as an "almost dead" Gliscor. Really the whole point of this mon is that until it is not KOED it always has the opportunity to come back thanks to its broken features. Until Gliscor is at 0% you always run into the risk of it coming back

Okay... so now it suddenly can heal 80-90% of it's hp back with just protect stalling? Good luck with that. Not to mention gliscor has bad special bulk as well.

 

[VigilanteV8]

Okay... so now it suddenly can heal 80-90% of it's hp back with just protect stalling? Good luck with that. Not to mention gliscor has bad special bulk as well.

The fact you have never seen or heard of a gliscor coming back from very low health tells me alot about your metagame knowledge and experience.

 

[UnusualBoy]

Start removing stuff and it wont be long until the meta becomes unbalanced again and the ban waves start

What will become broken if Kyurem or Moon leave? The other dragons?

If anything, their bans will give other pokemon a chance to breathe (I love this for Dragonite since they're both problematic for him and screw the ugly cat that now OHKs him with triple axel)

 

[Conflux123]

The fact you have never seen or heard of a gliscor coming back from very low health tells me alot about your metagame knowledge and experience.

You literally just stay in or bring it back in on a smart double switch when you predict gliscor coming back. It only heals 12% hp each turn so you just need to prevent it from getting 7 free turns if you do 80% of its hp with an attack AND you haven't even said anything about its special bulk, which is terrible on standard sets. This leads to gliscor getting OHKOed by pretty much any strong special attack that it doesn't resist.

 

[Tio Chico]

The fact you have never seen or heard of a gliscor coming back from very low health tells me alot about your metagame knowledge and experience.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2017574122?p2
Gliscor coming back from 9% HP and winning due Tera.

 

[Welcome to mars]

This is terrible for me

the metagame thread isn’t sharing any heat anymore and is back to the ban discussion

sleep is going to be banned

darkrai isn’t considered balanced anymore

and here i am, like a lost puppy

BAN

BAN


DLC2 dropped more than a month ago and, as expected, the vast amount of new and returning mons as well as changing movepools really shook the metagme.

Furthermore stellar type absolutely changed... I joke lol that's the most useless mechanic ever introduced. Just wanted to point out how useless and forgetable this thing is (luckily serp and enam make it have at least 0.1% usage).

Regardless of these changes I think that Gliscor still remains as problematic as it was in DLC1 metagme. Yes, we have offensive things that check it like kyurem but does it really make an impact? In my opinion it really doesn't.

Gliscor was never broken because of it being unkillable, there are several mons that can OKHO it without too many problems. Any special attacking water type or mon that has ice coverage can OKHO it easily, so the fact that new strong attackers like kyurem are in the tier means nothing in practical terms when it comes to the brokenness of gliscor. There could be even 100 viable ice type pokémons in OU but it wouldn't change a thing: you will still most likely have 1/2 mons that can OKHO gliscor in a given team, you will never have 6 things that can deal with it regardless of how many options are avaible in a given meta.

What makes this thing incredibly toxic is its impact on team building and the nasty cores it can create coupled with other pokemons. Its list of perks is very long:

-The passive regenaration granted by its ability is obviously its main thing
-It is essentially immune to knock off
-It is immune to every single hazard except for rocks.
-It has an incredibly vast movepool.
-The interactions it creates with protect are just uncompetitive. The gliscor player doesn't even need to risk anything trying to predict as it can safely regen and scout with protect
-It is not passive by any means. Even with 0 investments its STAB earthquake is forcing out a lot of pokémons, furthermore it has access to knock, toxic and swords dance sets.

All of the above factors contribute to the issue I have with gliscor: this mon stops any kind of progress being made in a given game. Gliscor feels particularly broken this gen because, in my opinion, it has two team mates that make it absolutely toxic:

this mon with gliscor is just a no brainer in my opinion. They complement each other weaknesses almost (if not straight up) PERFECTLY. This thing has regenrator, pivotting, great special bulk and options such future sight, t wave, sludge bomb etc. etc.

Gliscor litrally learns all hazards ever outside of sticky webs and Ghold is simply a great partner to it, not much explanation is need here.

Gliscor is not borken in a vacum, as I said gliscor is not your standard broken mon like urshifu single strike (which in my opinion is a broken mon regardless of the metagame you put it in). In gen 9 meta, nonetheless, I think Gliscor is absolutely uncompetitive and really should be taken out of the game.


I will just ask you this: what makes gliscor easier to handle compared to DLC1? Answer: Absolutely nothhing. This mon is still broken as before because just like before it has partners that can just create unbreakable cores.

Don't let me get started on the impact of gliscor on stall. I will leave you a replay that, in my opinion, clearly displays how broken it is.

Explanation: I am running a wack team that was the result of some nasty cooking. I have two mons that, in theory, should just have a great matchup against stall:

- Sub/wisp/hex/CURSE

- Tacyhon/psyshock/volt switch/FUTURE SIGHT

- support

to keep the previous two healthy.

With this kind of team I really shouldn't struggle as much against stall but, since gliscor and his uncompetitiveness are in the tier, the stall matches are incredibly difficult even with this niche trash ass team I am running. Not only I struggled by I also took huge risks in that game (like switching 25% health crown on slowking, one flamethrower and it was gg).

Gliscor stall ≈ 1900 elo replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2037217394

Bonus yapping: ban Kingambit, Roaring moon, Darkrai and gholedngo. I will make more detailed posts about these but for real some actions have to be taken. We can't have a tier with gambit, moon, darkrai, dengo and gliscor free to do the F they want without even a suspect test.

i personally believe gliscor is good for the meta, a good physical, special and mixed defensive pivot for unique utility, when we took out the dlc 1 meta, it hit the fan

sometimes wack teams built to counter a certain playstyle, don’t account for how that archetype adapts to threats like how gliscor helps out stall and you won in the end it was just that gliscor was carrying a team which would otherwise be destroyed

Okay... so now it suddenly can heal 80-90% of it's hp back with just protect stalling? Good luck with that. Not to mention gliscor has bad special bulk as well.

gliscors raw special bulk isn’t that noteworthy, but poison heal and a highly desirable typing help out extremely and make specially defensive sets a fantastic gluemon for a variety of teams, physically defensive sets also aren’t heavily dented by your usual special attacks

 

[YubelVT]

You literally just stay in or bring it back in on a smart double switch when you predict gliscor coming back. It only heals 12% hp each turn so you just need to prevent it from getting 7 free turns if you do 80% of its hp with an attack AND you haven't even said anything about its special bulk, which is terrible on standard sets. This leads to gliscor getting OHKOed by pretty much any strong special attack that it doesn't resist.

This was also true during DLC1, and it was still banned. Your arguments are just not backed up by how people play the game

 

[Conflux123]

This was also true during DLC1, and it was still banned. Your arguments are just not backed up by how people play the game

We got Kyurem in DLC2, which is pretty played and good on a lot of team archetypes that completely bodies gliscor.

 

[pika pal]

One thing I think needs to be kept in mind is that sure, plenty of mons can OHKO or 2HKO Gliscor in theory, but they HAVE to manage that because Gliscor ignores 85% of the Hazard game. If Gliscor gets in and takes a turn without a significant hit due to Protect, a Switch, or some other form of shut down like Taunt on Defensive/Utility mon, it takes a net gain of health without needing Boots, which is massive for longevity in this Spikes Hell OU can be.

Gliscor has the lowest commitment-to-benefit ratio on its defensive profile of almost anything seeing play in SV OU. The only thing it needs is its Held item for one turn to have Double Leftovers (when the normal item requires holding onto), Knock Off absorbing (whether from utility mons it sets up on or an offensive Dark option), Hazard resilience (12.5% from Stealth Rock basically means it comes out neutral to Hazards on switching in), Status Immunity (even with reduced Distribution, Toxic is one of the most reliable ways to progress past Bulky mons, not to mention passing on Sleep concerns or Burns to neuter its Earthquakes and chip it), and all this on top of one of the best Defensive Typings in the game. Retaining Toxic, gaining spikes, and the nerf to a lot of defensive play options (not just Recovery moves but losing things like Cleric moves and Hazard removal to reduce Chip) all mean Gliscor makes progress easily and with little option to slow it down, short of stopping it from getting more moves in.

In some ways the above benefits are more worth it to Gliscor than what some would consider much better defensive abilities such as Regenerator, because the amount of healing it misses out on is miniscule (bearing in mind Regenerators have to come in and out to heal making them Knock Off bait for Boots and better at pivoting than hard stopping) compared to how many other things it defends against. Overpowered or not there is very little room to argue Gliscor is NOT the best defensive presence in the tier despite us having Gholdengo (who even then seems to moreso leverage that defense to position for Breaking things than outlasting them).

Then it becomes what do you ban. If it's the teammates that make gliscor so good, then that's not gliscor being good by itself.

(For the sake of explanation the following speaks on Gliscor Cores being unhealthy, strictly as a premise as there is not enough discussion to say this of DLC2 atm)

If Gliscor proved to be the problem factor in many of these builds, then Gliscor would be the one to go because it's the simplest option to remove unhealthy builds with the least collateral damage or complexity to the decision.

We got Kyurem in DLC2, which is pretty played and good on a lot of team archetypes that completely bodies gliscor.

Kyurem is also top of the list for concerning subjects so I don't think this is the best argument for bringing Gliscor down, on top of the usual concern that one Counter, no matter how good, isn't an argument a mon is stable for a tier.

 

[Conflux123]

One thing I think needs to be kept in mind is that sure, plenty of mons can OHKO or 2HKO Gliscor in theory, but they HAVE to manage that because Gliscor ignores 85% of the Hazard game. If Gliscor gets in and takes a turn without a significant hit due to Protect, a Switch, or some other form of shut down like Taunt on Defensive/Utility mon, it takes a net gain of health without needing Boots, which is massive for longevity in this Spikes Hell OU can be.

Gliscor has the lowest commitment-to-benefit ratio on its defensive profile of almost anything seeing play in SV OU. The only thing it needs is its Held item for one turn to have Double Leftovers (when the normal item requires holding onto), Knock Off absorbing (whether from utility mons it sets up on or an offensive Dark option), Hazard resilience (12.5% from Stealth Rock basically means it comes out neutral to Hazards on switching in), Status Immunity (even with reduced Distribution, Toxic is one of the most reliable ways to progress past Bulky mons, not to mention passing on Sleep concerns or Burns to neuter its Earthquakes and chip it), and all this on top of one of the best Defensive Typings in the game. Retaining Toxic, gaining spikes, and the nerf to a lot of defensive play options (not just Recovery moves but losing things like Cleric moves and Hazard removal to reduce Chip) all mean Gliscor makes progress easily and with little option to slow it down, short of stopping it from getting more moves in.

In some ways the above benefits are more worth it to Gliscor than what some would consider much better defensive abilities such as Regenerator, because the amount of healing it misses out on is miniscule (bearing in mind Regenerators have to come in and out to heal making them Knock Off bait for Boots and better at pivoting than hard stopping) compared to how many other things it defends against. Overpowered or not there is very little room to argue Gliscor is NOT the best defensive presence in the tier despite us having Gholdengo (who even then seems to moreso leverage that defense to position for Breaking things than outlasting them).


(For the sake of explanation the following speaks on Gliscor Cores being unhealthy, strictly as a premise as there is not enough discussion to say this of DLC2 atm)

If Gliscor proved to be the problem factor in many of these builds, then Gliscor would be the one to go because it's the simplest option to remove unhealthy builds with the least collateral damage or complexity to the decision.


Kyurem is also top of the list for concerning subjects so I don't think this is the best argument for bringing Gliscor down, on top of the usual concern that one Counter, no matter how good, isn't an argument a mon is stable for a tier.

I was saying a difference between DLC2 and DLC1 when I referenced kyurem. There are plenty of pokemon that threaten gliscor. Strong special attackers, Ogerpon-W, etc. etc.

 

[YubelVT]

We got Kyurem in DLC2, which is pretty played and good on a lot of team archetypes that completely bodies gliscor.

1. Having one counter does not a balanced pokemon make
2. The gliscor user can just switch to their special wall

 

[Just A Shroom God]

I was saying a difference between DLC2 and DLC1 when I referenced kyurem. There are plenty of pokemon that threaten gliscor. Strong special attackers, Ogerpon-W, etc. etc.

listing a single pokemon, a vague category, and 2 'etc.'s is not the most conducive to an argument about how gliscor has so many things that counter it.

 

[Conflux123]

1. Having one counter does not a balanced pokemon make
2. The gliscor user can just switch to their special wall

Like I've said to multiple people, I was just referencing a differnece between DLC2 and DLC1. And again, gliscor has a lot of checks and counters. All strong special attackers, for one.

 

[Conflux123]

listing a single pokemon, a vague category, and 2 'etc.'s is not the most conducive to an argument about how gliscor has so many things that counter it.

Okay what I was trying to say is that basically all strong special attackers, some examples being specs wallbreakers like kyurem, keldeo, iron valiant, and walking wake. There are also strong physical attackers with super-effective moves, like SD Ogerpon-Wellspring and Banded Great Tusk with Ice Spinner.

 

[YubelVT]

Like I've said to multiple people, I was just referencing a differnece between DLC2 and DLC1. And again, gliscor has a lot of checks and counters. All strong special attackers, for one.

Y'know who was probably the best pokemon in the tier during the DLC1 gliscor suspect? It wasn't gliscor, it was Sneasler. Having multiple physical walls to deal with Sneasler (which didn't work and that's why that fucker is gone to hopefully never return) inadvertently also helped deal with gliscor in the builder and guess what, it didn't work. Also, need I remind you, Gliscor is A- on the Ubers VR (which again isn't 1:1 to a pokemon's banworthiness but it helps prove my point) and that tier is FULL of supremely strong special attackers and physical attackers packing coverage to specifically beat ground types. Gliscor is probably too much for this iteration of OU and should be banned while we deal with some other questions. I'm down for a gliscor retest in the future after we deal with some stuff and assuming Gholdengo is banned. But as it stands, Gliscor is too overwhelming on the defensive side and needs to go.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Okay what I was trying to say is that basically all strong special attackers, some examples being specs wallbreakers like kyurem, keldeo, iron valiant, and walking wake. There are also strong physical attackers with super-effective moves, like SD Ogerpon-Wellspring and Banded Great Tusk with Ice Spinner.

you listed 1 OU viable special attacker that commonly runs specs and can actually OHKO Gliscor, and that pokemon is on the watchlist. Similarly, banded isn't viable, and wogerpon fails to KO from +0, meaning it gets toxic stalled. Furthermore, specs and band pokemon just get protected on and gliscor is completely safe to swap into something to deal with it

This will be my last post on the topic because you seem to be incredibly set in your misguided beliefs.