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[Omastar68]

Well, in fairness Ferro does absolutely nothing to Tangrowth, so it's safe to fish for FB hits(which aren't that rare.) I mean I'm not all that for Tangrowth on this team, just saying.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

Well, in fairness Ferro does absolutely nothing to Tangrowth, so it's safe to fish for FB hits(which aren't that rare.) I mean I'm not all that for Tangrowth on this team, just saying.

Ferrothorn probably won't win often, but it can still Protect every other turn to waste the very limited Focus Blast PP while you have a realistic chance of missing Focus Blast on the turns Ferrothorn doesn't Protect. It might not be likely, but it is possible for Ferrothorn to survive 8 attempts to Focus Blast it.

Ferrothorn does not directly threaten Tangrowth with its Grass- or Steel-STAB, but it can still Thunder Wave or Knock Off to annoy the fun out of you or even beat you with Toxic and Protect.

Hidden Power Fire Tangrowth obviously would eat Ferrothorn alive, but that is not the set Brobat posted.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Fischgrat's Porygon2

 

[Xander of Nohr]

Voting for NOVED Physically Defensive Ferrothorn. (actually submitted it in the 2nd round too, so yeah)

On a different note: is anyone keeping track of what the team is looking like right now? I've been out of the loop for a while and the OP isn't updated with the process thus far, so I had to go through roughly 3 pages to figure out where we're standing. It wasn't too much of a hassle for me but please keep it updated, thanks!

 

[a0161613]

Voting for NOVED Physically Defensive Ferrothorn. (actually submitted it in the 2nd round too, so yeah)

On a different note: is anyone keeping track of what the team is looking like right now? I've been out of the loop for a while and the OP isn't updated with the process thus far, so I had to go through roughly 3 pages to figure out where we're standing. It wasn't too much of a hassle for me but please keep it updated, thanks!

Yes sorry about that. This round is to partner Mence & Azu.

I'll update everything but when the deadline ends. That will be Saturday evening, just over 36 hours from now.

 

[Sobi]

Ferrothorn.

 

[a0161613]

Thanks for all the votes guys.

I'm going to vote for bobo's Custap Berry Magnezone

bobochan's Custap Magnezone.

NOVED's Ferrothorn

NOVED's Ferrothorn

NOVED's Ferrothorn.

NOVED Physically Defensive Ferrothorn.

Ferrothorn.

ethan's weavile

Fischgrat's Porygon2

fischgrat's Porygon2

fischgrat's Porygon2

jroxas' Rotom-h.

Summary:
Magnezone = 2
Ferrothorn = 5
Weavile = 1
Porygon2 = 3
Rotom H = 1

I think it's safe to say that the general consensus was to go with a steel type.

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip

With this in place we have our fantasy core (thanks mostly to NOVED). We now need to figure out how to complete this team. Discussion phase goes on now for a couple of days.

 

[6tennis]

honk honk honk, here comes conk

Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch

it's a tank. it beats p2. it beats gren. it beats thund, but we don't really need a thund check actually, because spdef mence does a number on it, but it's nice to have. it takes hits and softens up checks for mence to sweep, e.g. ferro and basically every steel type ever LMAO. ye

 

[NOVED]

but we don't really need a thund check actually, because spdef mence does a number on it

Nooo it doesnt. Para sucks massive balls and bulky nasty plot just beats it easy. And +1 facade does shit even if youre status'd

 

[6tennis]

Nooo it doesnt. Para sucks massive balls and bulky nasty plot just beats it easy. And +1 facade does shit even if youre status'd

oh this is true

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

So this is the team so far:

Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 244 HP / 4 Atk / 4 Def / 228 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Facade
- Earthquake
- Roost

Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Def / 12 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip

Pretty solid, the most outstanding threats I can think of off-top are Mega Manectric, Zapdos (if it runs HP Ice) and LO 3 attacks Thundurus with Focus Blast. All 3 of these mons have coverage and speed to check everything on the team thus far. Offensive Mega Gengar is somewhat of a problem, offensive sets can just muscle through Azumarill and Ferrothorn with the correct moves, while bulky sets can just burn and/or successfully trap either of them. Bulky mons and being able to break them down more easily might be the next priority the team should address. Skarmory laughs at all 3 of our picks thus far, Cresselia, while it can't do much back to Ferrothorn at least, has no problem dealing with Azumarill and Mence. Opposing Ferrothorn are a huge thorn (haha) in our side too, the team has absolutely nothing that can break through them. Though it's kinda rare, Cosmic Power Clefable actually can use Ferrothorn as setup bait, stall it out of Gyro Balls, and just sweep. And this isn't even factoring Minimize being on its moveset.

Covering the majority of these problem mons in one is a tall order, but I think this is a good idea:

Heatran @ Chople Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Ancient Power
- Toxic

This is a very clunky-looking set but it's specialized for the team. "FerroTran" is a decent core to begin with, the shared Fighting weakness not only covered easily by Salamence and Azumarill, but also mitigated by Heatran's Chople Berry, while Ferrothorn and Salamence have Heatran's Ground weakness covered. The Chople Berry is honestly there only so it has a fighting chance against Thundurus variants of all stripes, allowing Heatran to stomach an LO Thunderbolt followed by a Focus Blast and still win 1v1. But you never know, it might be clutch in a situational emergency, too. The HP and SpD investment with a Calm nature give Heatran the most special bulk, avoiding the 2HKO from LO Thundurus Thunderbolt. Special Attack is maxed out because Heatran needs all the power it can handle if it's going to muscle past some of the threats that plague the team. If you're not really worried about having the extra SpA, you can run with the 212 HP / 4 Def / 44 SpA / 156 SpD / 92 Spe spread as mentioned on the analysis, as this set is still capable of 2HKOing Thundurus with such a spread. Toxic is in the last slot to let Heatran get rid of Cresselia/Porygon2 for the team much more easily.

 

[a0161613]

A Fire type seems like a good shout. I was thinking Entei. Either with a balloon or vest.

I've done no calculations yet though. Heatran is a very good call.

 

[jroxas]

Rotom-Heat @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunderbolt

I'll nominate Rotom-Heat again. It's still good for the reasons I mentioned before (we still need a solid Thundurus solution), and is possibly even a better fit now that we've added the Talonflame-hating Ferrothorn.

Since the Ferrothorn build we've chosen both acts as a Spore absorber and has Leftovers, I'm recommending the conventional tank build from the dex entry.

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 188 HP / 116 Def / 4 SpA / 4 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Hypnosis
- Hex
- Focus Blast

Now that we have a full core selected, it's worth considering a backup mega. Casino Gengar has been my go-to for that role recently. In addition to the "delete target Pokemon with Destiny Bond" utility that comes built-in with Mega Gengar, this build has the ability to, with some luck, cripple and remove multiple members of the opponent's team.

Hypnosis is great in general with this fast and bulky build, but it's especially effective when trying to avoid Sucker Punch mind games and on predicted switches the turn that Gengar mega-evolves.

Focus Blast is primarily for the Tyranitars that stall teams almost always bring against Gengar, but it's also useful against Kangaskhan, Porygon2, Ferrothorn, and more. (Missing doesn't hurt as much when they're asleep!)

No matter how well you craft your team, sometimes your opponent has one or more mons that you can't deal with effectively or their team just generally matches up well against yours. In these cases, coin flipping your way to victory can provide a better chance of winning than anything else you can do. Casino Gengar provides that option.

 

[a0161613]

We are certainly able to consider a second mega at this point. I was thinking Hera but we're not employing speed control right now so it seems like it would be vulnerable. I'm wondering how effective Mega Blaziken would be and like the option that a fire type would give us with a possible FWG core. I'm going to think on that a little more because I've already mentioned Entei.

jroxas has kicked off the nomination period in style. This will stay open until Saturday evening.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Gonna stick with my nomination of Heatran

Pretty solid, the most outstanding threats I can think of off-top are Mega Manectric, Zapdos (if it runs HP Ice) and LO 3 attacks Thundurus with Focus Blast. All 3 of these mons have coverage and speed to check everything on the team thus far. Offensive Mega Gengar is somewhat of a problem, offensive sets can just muscle through Azumarill and Ferrothorn with the correct moves, while bulky sets can just burn and/or successfully trap either of them. Bulky mons and being able to break them down more easily might be the next priority the team should address. Skarmory laughs at all 3 of our picks thus far, Cresselia, while it can't do much back to Ferrothorn at least, has no problem dealing with Azumarill and Mence. Opposing Ferrothorn are a huge thorn (haha) in our side too, the team has absolutely nothing that can break through them. Though it's kinda rare, Cosmic Power Clefable actually can use Ferrothorn as setup bait, stall it out of Gyro Balls, and just sweep. And this isn't even factoring Minimize being on its moveset.

Covering the majority of these problem mons in one is a tall order, but I think this is a good idea:

Heatran @ Chople Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Ancient Power
- Toxic

This is a very clunky-looking set but it's specialized for the team. "FerroTran" is a decent core to begin with, the shared Fighting weakness not only covered easily by Salamence and Azumarill, but also mitigated by Heatran's Chople Berry, while Ferrothorn and Salamence have Heatran's Ground weakness covered. The Chople Berry is honestly there only so it has a fighting chance against Thundurus variants of all stripes, allowing Heatran to stomach an LO Thunderbolt followed by a Focus Blast and still win 1v1. But you never know, it might be clutch in a situational emergency, too. The HP and SpD investment with a Calm nature give Heatran the most special bulk, avoiding the 2HKO from LO Thundurus Thunderbolt. Special Attack is maxed out because Heatran needs all the power it can handle if it's going to muscle past some of the threats that plague the team. If you're not really worried about having the extra SpA, you can run with the 212 HP / 4 Def / 44 SpA / 156 SpD / 92 Spe spread as mentioned on the analysis, as this set is still capable of 2HKOing Thundurus with such a spread. Toxic is in the last slot to let Heatran get rid of Cresselia/Porygon2 for the team much more easily.

I've tested the team with Heatran on it and while Heatran definitely helps check Thundurus and other Electrics pretty easily, the 212 HP / 4 Def / 44 SpA / 156 SpD / 92 Spe EV spread might be a little more ideal. While you can't 2HKO Zapdos with Fire Blast anymore (you can just hit it with Toxic anyway on top of hitting it with Earth Power on a Roost), you have a lot more bulk to work with, which comes in handy because in a lot of cases Heatran will be switching into Thunder Wave from Thundurus, which gives it a chance to still win against Heatran if it carries Focus Blast or Nasty Plot.

Oh yeah our team as is right now is stupidly weak to Mega Heracross, as I've also learned from testing...it destroys 3 out of 4 mons (assuming Heatran is the 4th) 1v1, and the only way of beating it is having Salamence in on it to use Facade. Fortunately Rock Blast is the only move Heracross can nail Salamence with switching in, but Mega Heracross just puts serious pressure on the team. Swords Dance Garchomp is also a major threat, it's getting an easy 2HKO on Ferrothorn at +2, while Ferrothorn can only hope to 2HKO back in return (Rough Skin also makes Ferrothorn easier to kill for Chomp). Whatever teammate(s) are nominated this round and the one after should hopefully be able to deal with Mega Heracross and SD Garchomp, on top of Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Cresselia, and Electrics like Thundurus, Mega Manectric, and Zapdos.

 

[ethan06]

Whatever teammate(s) are nominated this round and the one after should hopefully be able to deal with Mega Heracross and SD Garchomp, on top of Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Cresselia, and Electrics like Thundurus, Mega Manectric, and Zapdos.

This is a diverse set of threats which will be tough to cover in one fell swoop but I'm going to put forward another toolbox mon to help deal with some of these Pokemon.

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 12 Atk / 248 SpA / 248 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Low Kick

Greninja is the ultimate hole-filling mon for a team. Out of the list above, this set hits everything except for Thundurus and Manectric, and has Low Kick to deal heavy damage to Kangaskhan as well, which is useful on such a slow and, so far, defensively-oriented team. This squad badly needs speed at this point as our Mence spread is slow and our only form of speed at all is Aqua Jet. This Greninja lowers the risk of a clean sweep from any offensive Pokémon in the 90-speed-or-higher club and gives us a huge palette of coverage for dealing with any threats that arise as the composition of the team progresses.

As for the problem of Electric-types:

Mamoswine @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off

I'm no expert on Mamoswine (paging NOVED) so this is more of a nomination of the Pokémon than this specific set, but Mamoswine covers all three of the aforementioned Electrics as well as bopping Garchomp and defensive Talonflame sets, which currently sets up on Mence and drops burns on everything else. Knocking off Cress and P2 is always nice but Mamoswine is otherwise walled by not only them, but also Ferrothorn and Skarmory so this is only a partial solution. Still, Mamoswine would be a solid synergistic choice, perhaps not necessarily with this set but definitely a Pokémon to consider going forward.

pls count these noms separately during voting a0161613 <3

_____________
learn to EV noob

_____________
actually bite me

 

[freekhoorn]

So for now electric pokemon are a problem, as they often run fire and ice coverage (zapdos and manectric). This three type coverage (fire electric ice) hits all our current pokemon super effectively. Rotom-h happens to resist all those three types. On top of that we have already three phsycial attacking pokemon, so physical walls are becoming a problem. Rotom-h gives a dent to those physical walls with STAB-overheat.
Moreover, we do not have a status spreader yet and rotom-h also fits this role with will-o-wisp or t-wave. And as last, we already have a water and grass pokemon, so adding rotom-h will make a FWG-core on top of the fantasy core we already have.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

So for now electric pokemon are a problem, as they often run fire and ice coverage (zapdos and manectric). This three type coverage (fire electric ice) hits all our current pokemon super effectively. Rotom-h happens to resist all those three types. On top of that we have already three phsycial attacking pokemon, so physical walls are becoming a problem. Rotom-h gives a dent to those physical walls with STAB-overheat.
Moreover, we do not have a status spreader yet and rotom-h also fits this role with will-o-wisp or t-wave. And as last, we already have a water and grass pokemon, so adding rotom-h will make a FWG-core on top of the fantasy core we already have.

Not to fight your argument here but Heatran does do the same thing...lol

 

[freekhoorn]

Not to fight your argument here but Heatran does do the same thing...lol

Thats almost true: Heatran does not resist electric however, and i think that is a nice benefit of rotom-h cause it is the stab-attack of the pokemon that are a threat to the existing team.

 

[a0161613]

Not to fight your argument here but Heatran does do the same thing...lol

They offer slightly different things. Heatran can't offer thunder wave or a ground immunity. It can offer a bit more offensive power alongside trapping opportunities.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

You guys really should address the Greninja problem at this point. I'm not sure if a Fire-type is right for that.

20 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 228 HP / 12 Def Azumarill: 205-244 (100.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Mega Salamence: 218-265 (108.4 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
136 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 187-224 (103.3 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Obviously not every Greninja will have this combination of moves, but it is impossible to know in advance and Greninja could easily run through this Fantasy Core without much resistance.

 

[jroxas]

You guys really should address the Greninja problem at this point. I'm not sure if a Fire-type is right for that.

20 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 228 HP / 12 Def Azumarill: 205-244 (100.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Mega Salamence: 218-265 (108.4 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
136 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 187-224 (103.3 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Obviously not every Greninja will have this combination of moves, but it is impossible to know in advance and Greninja could easily run through this Fantasy Core without much resistance.

True, but I think Thundurus and other electric-types are a more common problem to solve, and there isn't much that solves both (AV Conk and P2 seem like the best). We'd still have a couple more slots left to solve outlying problems like Greninja.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

True, but I think Thundurus and other electric-types are a more common problem to solve, and there isn't much that solves both (AV Conk and P2 seem like the best). We'd still have a couple more slots left to solve outlying problems like Greninja.

Electric-types might be more common, but they are also alot more predictable as threats. Sure, they can paralyze Mence + hit it with HP Ice and Tbolt the Azumarill for big damage, but you see this coming a mile away.
Greninja on the other hand is impossible to predict until you know the whole set and this team urgently needs a dedicated counter to that thing.

I think that finding a dedicated counter to Greninja first and then looking for an Electric-type check that synergizes with those four might be the better approach, since Electric-type checks are easier to find and our options more plentiful.

 

[a0161613]

I would like to see both P2 and AV Conk nommed again. They could fill a whole and the amount of votes for Pory would indicate it could fit in well.

I've also wondered about a Thundurus of our own but the Therian forme with Volt Absorb.

 

[freekhoorn]

You guys really should address the Greninja problem at this point. I'm not sure if a Fire-type is right for that.

20 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 228 HP / 12 Def Azumarill: 205-244 (100.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Mega Salamence: 218-265 (108.4 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
136 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 187-224 (103.3 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Obviously not every Greninja will have this combination of moves, but it is impossible to know in advance and Greninja could easily run through this Fantasy Core without much resistance.

Well you can always scout greninjas move a bit by switching into immunities. Say you start with ferrothorn you can switch to azumarril that tanks a move (it will not use gunk shot ofcourse against a ferrothorn) then see if it has hp fire and then switch back. The chance of encountering a greninja with all three moves is really rare: hidden power is used 7% of all greninjas and not all hidden power is hidden power fire on greninja. This way it can be beaten even when it is unpredictable. The chance that zapdos and mega manectric have fire electric ice coverage is higher (51% of zapdos and 49% of manectric).