XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

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col49

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While I myself would be somewhat open to the idea of re-evaluating Cloyster's rank in the metagame, I must disagree with your methodology behind its move, given that it is positively fallacious and idealistic. What I would gather from your post is that the situation in which you are addressing Cloyster's match-up with other Pokemon in the tier is based on the ideas that:
  • Stealth Rock, or perhaps even no hazards at all are in play (as you mention the possibility of Focus Sash within certain points)
  • In addition to the previous point, Cloyster was also given a 100% free set-up opportunity, in which it was damaged neither in switching in or setting up
  • That every Pokemon within this list will be played in reactionary measure, switching in after it has been set up (again, apparently at full) in attempt to counter it

To begin, I must ask, under what circumstances is it so commonplace for Cloyster to find a window for set-up so easily? Entry hazards aside, I can assure you that no good player will concede so much breathing room to a potentially dangerous sweeper such as Cloyster if they lack a thorough check or counter to follow it up, and as physically bulky Cloyster is naturally, it doesn't exactly lend itself to multiple set-up opportunities; most Pokemon are capable of threatening significant damage to it in some way should it attempt set-up, either as a slower Pokemon capitalizing on its Defense drops to push significant damage or a faster offensive threat capable of hitting hard regardless. Cloyster folds to more-or-less any decently powerful special attack, or at the very least is significantly crippled, making its closest general set-up opportunities against more defensively oriented, physical attackers (Hippo, Lax, etc.), and by the nature of these Pokemon they are very commonly being paired with something that does handle Cloyster comfortably, such as Suicune or Slowbro, so very few teams immediately fold to it as you would let on.

Furthermore, the means you address these individual Pokemon seems to suggest a limited understanding of applicable scenarios. I'm all too sure a +2 Rock Blast from Cloyster OHKOs Mega Houndoom, but I would have to question the mindset of a player attempting to check a +2 Cloyster with a Mega Houndoom in the first place. A more relevant scenario would perhaps be something to the effect of whether or not Cloyster is capable of setting up against Mega Houndoom (which it cannot, for fairly obvious reasons), as it bears in mind Mega Houndoom's primary function in the tier, rather than on its ability to take hits. Against more defensively oriented Pokemon, these 'calcs' and so forth are relevant, as they will be combatting Cloyster in a defensive manner, so it is worth noting how well Cloyster can set up on and thereafter take on them. However, I am somewhat confused in reading this, as it at times will suggest that Cloyster has already been set up, then later it will not. That or these points are simply filled with misinformation, such as Choice Scarf Darmanitan outpacing a +2 Hasty Cloyster, though even then there are certain bits of misinformation (ie.Kyurem being unable to hit Cloyster?). That said, many of these calcs hold very little relevance in application.

That all being said, as an advocate of Cloyster, I feel it to be perfectly fine as it is in A rank. While an excellent win condition for offense, finding a moderate amount of set-up opportunities against softer physical attackers and cleaning up nicely vs.offense with a little chip damage on certain Water- and Steel-types (as most priority does a pittance, even at -1), it will inherently struggle to break through commonplace defensive Pokemon without significant prior damage, and between its vulnerability to entry hazards and its limited special bulk or relevant resistances, it does struggle to find very many opportunities to set up. In this regard, the "opportunity cost" of Cloyster a little too high for a S rank Pokemon, or even an A+ one, requiring moderate support of some nature to yield solid, yet not entirely consistent, results.
 
col49 You make good points, but to say that he does "a pittance" to walls is nigh laughable. It is true that at +0, he does not deal much to walls (most of them are 4 or five hit kos), but with kings rock and a single turn of setup, those walls now have about a 60% chance of doing anything back. Even at -1, cloyster has relatively little to fear from univested scalds, so kings rock turns him into a really fast psudo machamp: has enough bulk to live most attacks from walls but has a rather significant chance of surviving unscathed.

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 121-143 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While it is still an unfavorable matchup for cloyster, If slowbro has some prior damage on it, cloyster has a pretty good chance of winning without taking a hit, and is almost gaurenteed a win(assuming about 20-ish% prior damage). Even if slowbro is at full, if it swaps in on a shell smash, one flinch allows cloyster to muscle past it's would-be counter (unless it's running psychic), meaning that we now have a +2 cloyster at half health with it's would-be counter dead, which is a pretty bad situation for a lot of UU teams that don't have a scarfed revenge killer or some strong priority. Slowbro is a premier UU wall, and a phys mon just muscled past it at full health.
 
I don't know if this has been suggested yet or not, but Granbull certainly deserves to be ranked. He has a nice niche beating dark, fighting, and dragons with ease, switching in with Intimidate and threatening them with STAB Play Rough coming from 120 base attack. He beats Mienshao, Weavile, Umbreon, Heracross, Absol, etc.
I personally like using:


Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell

(Recommended by Mob Barley on PS)
 

ethan06

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re the Porygon-Z thing, it absolutely deserves A-. It's ridiculously versatile and hits ridiculously hard, and can do more with it's moveslots now thanks to the Steel nerf. I run a bulky SubPlot set that can easily be set up on defensive Pokémon that think they can set up on it. It's swept teams before.

Porygon-Z @ Leftovers
Modest
Adaptability
252 HP/252 Sp. Atk/4 Sp. Def
-Tri Attack
-Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse
-Substitute
-Nasty Plot

+6 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 458-540 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edit: here's a replay.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-104999817

Sweep starts at turn 12. It takes a bit of hax to get going but man... with screens support it'd be brutal.
 
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Nominating Cloyster for A+/S Rank. Cloyster has had an questionable drop to UU this generation, despite being less used, it's very powerful and few things actually can ever be NOT 2HKO'ed by it's moves. I'm going to go check out how S Rank, A+ Rank, and A Rank deal with Cloyster (Keep in mind everything I calculated with is with Hasty Nature):

- Hahaha, this thing gets OHKO'd with SR down even without a SS up
- About 81% chance to get OHKO'd with SR down, not a very good chance (252/0)
- It can kill Cloyster, but with Focus Sash Cloyster can win due with Icicle Spear (about 50% chance to OHKO without SS or SR up) so this is a 50/50
- This is one of the only counters to the thing, but Cloyster still hurts it pretty decently as it's a physical wall
- ^ Slowbro basically
- Do I really need to explain this?
A+ Rank

-
Can't switch in on a Rock Blast at +2, but with a free switch it absolutely dominates Cloyster
-
Ahahaha, Rock Blast.
- Foul Play kills Cloyster pretty easily, but with almost any prior damage (Not SR, actual DAMAGE) Cloyster can kill. Or if it switches in
- HAH, ICICLE SPEAR
- Look at the Hippo
- Scarfed Darmanitan wins, unless Sash is intact.
A Rank

-
Cloyster murders it where even with SR down Absol can't OHKO it unless Adamant
-
Outsped with +2 up and Hasty which is what I was calculating with all along, nope.
- OH MY GOD LOL
-
Rock Blast = Dead
- Whichever wins the speed tie wins basically
- No.
- Wins if Cloyster has taken some prior damage but is 2HKO'ed by Surf (THIS IS WHY I USED HASTY NATURE)
- Nah bro, Nah. Icicle Spear OHKO's
- Jesus, why can't I just say "No" and everyone knows that it can't do crap to Cloyster?
- Icicle Spear
- Meteor Mash does hell of a lot, with some prior damage Cloyster loses, otherwise it can usually 2HKO with Surf
- No
- Can't switch in, but with free switch it decimates it
- Denied
- Also denied
- Snorlax gets 2HKO'ed by Rock Blast, and can only deal about 60% back.

So as you can see, with hazards down Cloyster can destroy basically every Pokemon in UU, barring Mega Blastiose, Suicune, and Slowbro.
Alot of those pokemon aren't meant to take hits so why show them when it just takes up space.
 
Actually physically defensive Granbull can be somewhat effective in today's meta for countering the likes of Weavile, Mienshao, heracross while checking almost every physical attacker. It can fit well on most balanced and defensive teams and with a few changes to the set it can also work on more offensive teams. Here's the set I'd suggest:
View attachment 11376
Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Heal Bell
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
 
Actually physically defensive Granbull can be somewhat effective in today's meta for countering the likes of Weavile, Mienshao, heracross while checking almost every physical attacker. It can fit well on most balanced and defensive teams and with a few changes to the set it can also work on more offensive teams. Here's the set I'd suggest:
View attachment 11376
Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Heal Bell
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
We discussed Granbull already on previous pages, and while it may be able to come in on the things you mentioned without taking much damage, Weavile, Heracross, and Meinshao all carry Knock Off which severely cripples Granbull forcing your set to rely on RestTalk without any passive recovery. Not saying Granbull is bad, definitely B minus or C+, but it does risk its item when coming in on many physical threats due to Knock Off.
 
re the Porygon-Z thing, it absolutely deserves A-. It's ridiculously versatile and hits ridiculously hard, and can do more with it's moveslots now thanks to the Steel nerf. I run a bulky SubPlot set that can easily be set up on defensive Pokémon that think they can set up on it. It's swept teams before.

Porygon-Z @ Leftovers
Modest
Adaptability
252 HP/252 Sp. Atk/4 Sp. Def
-Tri Attack
-Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse
-Substitute
-Nasty Plot

+6 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 458-540 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edit: here's a replay.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-104999817

Sweep starts at turn 12. It takes a bit of hax to get going but man... with screens support it'd be brutal.
Not saying ur wrong or anything, but pretty much anything is scary at +6. Being able to 2hko phys defensive chansey at +6 isn't saying a whole lot. Now-a-days, most sweeper mons only really need +2 to be able to sweep a large portion of the tier. Granted, "large portion" frequently means "not chansey", esp for special attackers, but +6 calcs are generally poor indicators of the viability of setup sweepers unless you have a semi-reliable way to get there (belly jet azumaril and manaphy come to mind as mons that can somewhat reliably get to +6, and maybe linoone to a much lesser extent (in that he only needs one free turn)).

inb4 +6 magikarp calcs
 
honestly if you want a +6 sweeper use slurpuff lmao

NP P-Z hits like a truck with Chansey gone but it's still not unstoppable. That shit is slow as hell without Scarf or Agility and his bulk means he is easily revenged by fast and strong Pokemon like Mienshao or Weavile, or scarfers like Heracross. I get that he's strong... but his bulk is meh and overall he's just another generic wallbreaker. It's not like Thundurus-T who resides in a trolly speed tier with god-like coverage.
 

KM

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Nominating Cloyster for A+/S Rank. Cloyster has had an questionable drop to UU this generation, despite being less used, it's very powerful and few things actually can ever be NOT 2HKO'ed by it's moves. I'm going to go check out how S Rank, A+ Rank, and A Rank deal with Cloyster (Keep in mind everything I calculated with is with Hasty Nature):

- Hahaha, this thing gets OHKO'd with SR down even without a SS up
- About 81% chance to get OHKO'd with SR down, not a very good chance (252/0)
- It can kill Cloyster, but with Focus Sash Cloyster can win due with Icicle Spear (about 50% chance to OHKO without SS or SR up) so this is a 50/50
- This is one of the only counters to the thing, but Cloyster still hurts it pretty decently as it's a physical wall
- ^ Slowbro basically
- Do I really need to explain this?
A+ Rank

-
Can't switch in on a Rock Blast at +2, but with a free switch it absolutely dominates Cloyster
-
Ahahaha, Rock Blast.
- Foul Play kills Cloyster pretty easily, but with almost any prior damage (Not SR, actual DAMAGE) Cloyster can kill. Or if it switches in
- HAH, ICICLE SPEAR
- Look at the Hippo
- Scarfed Darmanitan wins, unless Sash is intact.
A Rank

-
Cloyster murders it where even with SR down Absol can't OHKO it unless Adamant
-
Outsped with +2 up and Hasty which is what I was calculating with all along, nope.
- OH MY GOD LOL
-
Rock Blast = Dead
- Whichever wins the speed tie wins basically
- No.
- Wins if Cloyster has taken some prior damage but is 2HKO'ed by Surf (THIS IS WHY I USED HASTY NATURE)
- Nah bro, Nah. Icicle Spear OHKO's
- Jesus, why can't I just say "No" and everyone knows that it can't do crap to Cloyster?
- Icicle Spear
- Meteor Mash does hell of a lot, with some prior damage Cloyster loses, otherwise it can usually 2HKO with Surf
- No
- Can't switch in, but with free switch it decimates it
- Denied
- Also denied
- Snorlax gets 2HKO'ed by Rock Blast, and can only deal about 60% back.

So as you can see, with hazards down Cloyster can destroy basically every Pokemon in UU, barring Mega Blastiose, Suicune, and Slowbro.
If one more person uses this kind of post i'm literally going to tear my eyeballs out (probably not). Seriously, Cloyster's offensive matchup against "top-tier threats" assuming favorable conditions is close to useless in determining viability. This is for many reasons.

1. Literally 2/3 of the pokemon listed here are offensive. Of course Cloyster after a shell smash is going to destroy offensive pokes - that's its role. You could literally do the same exact calculation for any poke after it has a chance to set up - a Smash Pass passed to a Nidoking or a Victini or an Exploud, a Weavile after an SD, a Durant after a hone claws, etc. The reason that most of the top-tier threats are offensive is not necessarily because they're the most objectively threatening, more that they're more visible. If a Weavile sweeps your team, you're like "OMG WEAVILE SO GOOD FUCK DAT SHOULD BE BL". If a Mega Aggron does enough phazing and setting up and tanks enough hits for something else on the team to sweep, you don't go "WTF MEGA AGGRON SO BROKEN SO MUCH SUPPORT". With very few exceptions, defensive pokes are hard to be ranked in such a high position unless they do their jobs perfectly.

2. This assumes the lack of existence of anything below A rank. There are a number of incredibly good Cloyster checks/counters below A rank, and you don't exactly have to dive into the depths of PU to find them. Qwilfish, Empoleon, Mega-Aggron, Jirachi, and many other pokes are fully capable of dealing with a Cloyster at multiple stages of the game, yet in this little manifesto you have they're completely discounted.

I'm sorry if this sounds ranty, but I'm seriously so fucking sick of this type of posts. If you want to prove the viability of a pokemon do it through comparison, do it through analysis of its counters and other things that can perform the same role, explain why it's better then these other pokes, and maybe use some calcs to support this. Don't just post a giant list of calcs with pretty pictures and snarky little snippets about how much damage a Cloyster at +2 does to offensive threats switching in when there's hazards on the field. Trust the intelligence of the people in this thread enough to know that we sort of already know that. Ursaring in Trick Room 2HKOs the whole fucking tier as well, doesn't make it S-rank.

My personal favorite:

- Jesus, why can't I just say "No" and everyone knows that it can't do crap to Cloyster?

Actually, you can type No. It's fairly simple. Also, Earth power 100% OHKOs after Stealth Rocks, and Rock Blast doesn't, so there's that.
 

Ununhexium

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Duck-2 is now worse then Duck-Z? When did this happen? I figured Duck-2 would be better now that chansey, it's main competition, is gone.
duck z has unresisted 2 move coverage (shadow ball and tri attack) and it can run an effective double dancer set with NP and agility.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
actually i was wondering if Dark Pulse+Tri Attack wouldn't be better since NVE Tri Attack does as much as neutral Shadow Ball (Cobalion) and you should be using Tri Attack in those scenarios for the Freeze Burn Para chance.

Dark Pulse's flinch tends to be more helpful than Shadow Ball's spdef drop.
 
yeah, your point is correct. i still prefer tri attack + shadow ball though because i prefer running download instead of adaptability. you'd be surprised to see how many mons give away free special attack boosts (forretress, chesnaught, most bulky waters, etc). also, shadow ball doesn't activate justified users, and, should a fighter switch in on a predicted dark pulse or shadow ball, you'd do more damage with the latter. i feel it's more of a question of preference, though.

however, we should be discussing more important matters now.

a.k.a Reuniclus.
 
however, we should be discussing more important matters now.

a.k.a Reuniclus.
Reuniclus is a real pain to take down because the majority of its counters/checks are locked away in OU for now. This gen's UU environment is quite kind to him. I think Jirachi's the only commonly used Pokemon who can deal with it 100% of the time, though Mega Houndoom can beat him so long as he doesn't switch into a Focus Blast. There aren't too many safe switch ins to Reuniclus, otherwise.

I'd probably place him in B+/A- because of his power, ability, bulk, favorable environment, and reliable recovery. Really the only thing holding him back is his speed (though this is rectified with TR) and single STAB.
 

ethan06

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Not saying ur wrong or anything, but pretty much anything is scary at +6. Being able to 2hko phys defensive chansey at +6 isn't saying a whole lot. Now-a-days, most sweeper mons only really need +2 to be able to sweep a large portion of the tier. Granted, "large portion" frequently means "not chansey", esp for special attackers, but +6 calcs are generally poor indicators of the viability of setup sweepers unless you have a semi-reliable way to get there (belly jet azumaril and manaphy come to mind as mons that can somewhat reliably get to +6, and maybe linoone to a much lesser extent (in that he only needs one free turn)).

inb4 +6 magikarp calcs
I was more trying to show how easy it was to set up the boosts on a Pokémon like Chansey (something a calc probably isn't the best way to accomplish). Unfortunately it doesn't get 101 Subs but it can set up on non-attacking Chanseys or ones with Ice Beam or Flamethrower just fine. After Leftovers it can get some Nasty Plots up in Chansey's face after Lefties recovery, but that's kind of optimistic given Toxic.

0 SpA Chansey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Porygon-Z: 37-44 (9.8 - 11.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
For something more relevant:

+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 316-374 (80.2 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 350-412 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 208-246 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Aggron: 236-278 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 214-254 (54.3 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With this in mind, Porygon is capable of at least damaging most of UU if it has a Sub up and a Nasty Plot (both of which can be gained by using Substitute against a predicted Toxic or something, then forcing out the opposing Pokémon). However, it has a high opportunity cost and is difficult to set up effectively, especially against faster offensive mons, so it's most effective as a wallbreaker as others have said. I haven't tried Double Dance yet, but I'm not sure how good it'd be against offensive teams, where you really need both boosts to outspeed and secure the OHKOs. Such teams wouldn't give you the free turns you'd need to get more than one boost, meaning you'd fail to kill and subsequently lose Porygon in return:

252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 180-212 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: take a wild guess (328-387 (105.1 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 241-285 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 196-232 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If it doesn't have a boost already then Pory loses
 
ethan06

Hmmmm... the sad truth is that true setup bait like attackless chansey is simply not viable anymore. Pretty much every wall ever will have an offensive move of some sort, preferably one that requires no investment to be effective. Duck-Z has very low defense and virtually any STAB move will get rid of it. Some calcs for your pleasure.

4 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 118-141 (37.8 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 96-114 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 57.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 109-129 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Aggron Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Porygon-Z: 154-183 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

The point isn't that these guys can really beat Duck-Z (that's open for debate), but duck-z does not have the ability to setup in front of these guys. Your best bet is to NP on a predicted swap.
 
Leavanny could be moved up to C imo. It gets Chlorophyll, has access to Sticky Web and has a decent support movepool besides. It has unique dual STAB among all the Pokemon ranked in this thread. It can Swords Dance and then either attempt a sweep or Baton Pass its boosts to a teammate. Leavanny has a respectable niche on Sun teams as either a supporter or a sweeper so I don't see why it's D rank.
 

Punchshroom

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Leavanny could be moved up to C imo. It gets Chlorophyll, has access to Sticky Web and has a decent support movepool besides. It has unique dual STAB among all the Pokemon ranked in this thread. It can Swords Dance and then either attempt a sweep or Baton Pass its boosts to a teammate. Leavanny has a respectable niche on Sun teams as either a supporter or a sweeper so I don't see why it's D rank.
Chlorophyll Leavanny is very lackluster compared to the likes of Victreebel, Shiftry, Exeggutor, and Tangrowth, which can do a lot more with their boosted speed what with better coverage moves / STAB, boosting options, and Sleep Powder, while Leavanny offers terrible offensive and defensive synergy on Sun teams; really you're not even using Leavanny for Chlorophyll, only Sticky Web. Its dual STABs are unique but overlap too much: numerous single-types such as Fire-, Flying-, and Steel-type Pokemon alone resisting both, while Leavanny lacks the coverage to hit them back, meaning Leavanny can only present a mediocre offensive threat at best. Swords Dance + Baton Pass is truly asking too much from Leavanny at that point, since it needs Sticky Web and dual STABs just to function properly, and I'd rather use the statistically superior Leafeon for SD passing anyway. Even its sole niche, Sticky Web, already faces competition from the faster and less easily walled Galvantula, as well as the much bulkier Shuckle which has moves such as Stealth Rock and Encore. In short, Leavanny is very rarely worthwhile over other options.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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actually i was wondering if Dark Pulse+Tri Attack wouldn't be better since NVE Tri Attack does as much as neutral Shadow Ball (Cobalion) and you should be using Tri Attack in those scenarios for the Freeze Burn Para chance.

Dark Pulse's flinch tends to be more helpful than Shadow Ball's spdef drop.
Only if you run Silk Scarf. If you run Lum Berry in that instance, then Shadow Ball's probably your more favorable alternative
 
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EonX

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ethan06 , who in their right mind is going to try to Toxic (or Will-O-Wisp for that matter) a frail special attacker like P-Z? The only status move I'm going to consider using on it is T-Wave since it is at least decently fast (and it completely stops Agility sets) Otherwise, I'm just leaving what I have in there if I can afford to lose it and just attacking it. Imo, P-Z is kinda like Lucario is for OU. So long as you have something that is out and can hit it for neutral damage, why not leave it in? I mean, P-Z is so damn frail that most moves are doing around 40-50% at worst to it, which means it can't keep a Sub up on anything with any halfway decent offensive presence. Even Foul Play from Umbreon is doing around 30% on average on a -Attack 0 IV P-Z... yeah, that's pretty damn frail. So long as you aren't locked in on Shadow Ball (only relevant with Chandulre and... Jolteon maybe?) then you can probably afford to stay in and attack it. If it sets up, then you know what to send in after a KO. If it just straight attacks and finishes off what you have on the field, send in your revenge killer / wall against it. Honestly, P-Z is deserving of A- rank since it can do some serious work, but so long as you don't carelessly lock into Shadow Ball, you can generally limit its effectiveness by leaving in whatever you have on the field to push damage onto it rather easily IF you have the right answer left. The "if" part is why P-Z is deserving of A- rank in spite of the extreme frailty since it can use either NP or Agility depending on the situation.
 
Only if you run Silk Scarf. If you run Lum Berry in that instance, then Shadow Ball's probably your more favorable alternative
Shadow Ball and Tri Attack have the same BP now - both are at 80. To be honest it doesn't matter a whole lot what you run for a coverage option on P-Z considering you're going to be clicking tri attack 90% of the time.
 

ethan06

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ethan06 , who in their right mind is going to try to Toxic (or Will-O-Wisp for that matter) a frail special attacker like P-Z?
Don't ask me. In practice, I usually use Substitute as a fallback move against defensive Pokémon and it's surprising the number of people that attempt to Toxic it. Perhaps it's because I was at ~1300 rating, perhaps they predicted a switch, maybe it's maybelline.
 
Chlorophyll Leavanny is very lackluster compared to the likes of Victreebel, Shiftry, Exeggutor, and Tangrowth, which can do a lot more with their boosted speed what with better coverage moves / STAB, boosting options, and Sleep Powder, while Leavanny offers terrible offensive and defensive synergy on Sun teams; really you're not even using Leavanny for Chlorophyll, only Sticky Web. Its dual STABs are unique but overlap too much: numerous single-types such as Fire-, Flying-, and Steel-type Pokemon alone resisting both, while Leavanny lacks the coverage to hit them back, meaning Leavanny can only present a mediocre offensive threat at best. Swords Dance + Baton Pass is truly asking too much from Leavanny at that point, since it needs Sticky Web and dual STABs just to function properly, and I'd rather use the statistically superior Leafeon for SD passing anyway. Even its sole niche, Sticky Web, already faces competition from the faster and less easily walled Galvantula, as well as the much bulkier Shuckle which has moves such as Stealth Rock and Encore. In short, Leavanny is very rarely worthwhile over other options.
You may be right about offensive sets and admittedly, I have not used Leavanny in an offensive role; I was just theorizing. I have, however, used it in a support role and I don't think anything is better at setting up Sticky Web for a sun team. With sash, you can set up Sun in front of a faster opponent and then use Leavanny's Chlorophyll boosted Speed to get up Sticky Web before she(?) dies. She also gets Knock Off, which Galvantula lacks, and Magic Coat, which both Galvantula and Shuckle lack. I don't know why I didn't mention these 2 moves before since I've found them both to be very effective on Leavanny. Galvantula is, overall, the best Sticky Webber in the game but it does not synergize as well with Sun teams. Leavanny makes a good suicide lead as she can set up Sun and Sticky Web and mess with opposing leads via Magic Coat and Knock Off.
 
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