Congrats man, you self exposed your alt (which is also illegal), you had a decent larp, too bad you threw it, 4/10
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I understand it’s illegal, IMO 2 restriction points for 60 days was worth it (not saying I would do it again and shrugging it off), but how did I throw it
You're digging your own grave bro you know they ban alts and extend your initial ban period right
I'm calling it now that the moth will dodge the ban, barely. Be interesting to see if that holds up over this suspect test.
He was a hero, RIP Lugia.
I just want to point out that the dropping Ubers topic was brought up again and it wasn't because Finch made a tweet. Who could've possibly seen the coming?
I don't understand why people in general can't at least waited until Volc suspect was over and it potentially escaped a ban. Then there might at least be a bit more sentiment to make something happen, even if it is something like this that doesn't have much support. It's like the conversation somehow keeps getting more frantic with news of the Volc suspect incoming.
I also don't get why so many people are losing their minds over this topic now of all times. The whole situation really confuses me.
Stuff like this does more to hurt the argument than help it. Aside from the fact that your attention seeking method was wrong, and everything else, the timing was also bad.
I don't understand why people in general can't at least waited until Volc suspect was over and it potentially escaped a ban. Then there might at least be a bit more sentiment to make something happen, even if it is something like this that doesn't have much support. It's like the conversation somehow keeps getting more frantic with news of the Volc suspect incoming.
I also don't get why so many people are losing their minds over this topic now of all times. The whole situation really confuses me.
The real dumb thing is saying "LARP" because LARP is not the same thing as roleplaying, LARP specifically implies doing things in the real world like using costumes and acting in character. Nothing on the internet is LARPing
Hey Pokemon Scarlet Violet Overused on the website Smogon is very cool. What is a Pokemon you refuse to drop no matter how bad of an idea it is? For me, it's Meowscarada. Do you like Pokemone Scarlet Violet Overused on Smogon, hosted by Pokemon Showdown? I think that's a better thing at the moment within the confines of this 'forum' and 'thread' within the forum. Meowscarada!
I feel like I'm going to have a brain aneurysm every time I see a conversation on this forum.
Good job everybody, keep up the good work.
Good job everybody, keep up the good work.
I wanted to touch on Volcarona, however, because of my place in the player base and my inability to get reqs (and unwillingness to improve to do so?), it feels disingenuous to post in the suspect thread. So, I'm not going to wait for the suspect thread and post some preliminary thoughts here.
The set I have the most (read: any) experience with is from a hazard stack team from Maverick Shooters and Mencemeat (I can't find where I got the team from, my apologies for not redirecting correctly):
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Will-O-Wisp
- Quiver Dance
- Morning Sun
If you want the short form, I'll say that this is not Volc's most optimal set possible, but it absolutely has a place in the metagame and makes use of the defensive utility that makes the banning of Volc so controversial. It also very much makes use of the matchup fish nature of Volcarona and has both good and bad matchups. This set probably has more bad matchups than other Volc sets, but I'm unwilling to dedicate more time to research as A) I get rank competition anxiety that lets me play maybe 5 games at most per session and B) I'm in the midst of finals at uni.
To contribute to my discussion I want to discuss two of my replays.
Volc don't do shi-
I played extremely poorly this game, so that needs to be taken into consideration for this part of my analysis.
From preview, I figured that Volc would have a slightly rough game and need quite a few turns to set up quiver dances to be fully effective. In play, I bring volc in once and miss a wisp and that's it. I really had to get rid of Blissey, Glowking, and Kleavor for it to be effective. Plus, without Bug Buzz, I was very wary of the Woger matchup. There was a possibility of me bringing Volc in against Corv, but with Twave Blissey in the back, it wasn't effective. Although my play wasn't perfect, I felt that my overall goal was in a reasonable spot for the game: either get rid of the special walls so Volc could win, or get rid of Corv to take advantage of Great Tusk's decent matchup (not sure what I would've done against Woger before the setup race at the end).
As for self-criticism, I finally learned just how good Garg could be this game, so that was amazing. I think the biggest oversight in this game was just how good Ghold was and I prob could've spent more time in with him. Bliss, Corv, Glowking, and Kleavor were pretty deadweight against it. I need to learn more about Enamorous to determine how my team can matchup against it and any advice would be appreciated.
Volc absolutely balls
Man, this game really shows just how dominant Volc can be. For my skill level (read: time investment), I was punching above my weight against this opponent. And I don't think they could do a single thing against Volc. We both could've played better in the Volc vs Dragonite matchup, but once I won that part, I won the game. Morning Sun gave me more space to setup and I would have so many opportunities to fish for Fiery Dance boosts (I'm shocked I didn't get a single one). Volc won the game as soon as it beat Dragonite and my opponent couldn't really do anything about it.
Although both games are imperfect, I think both reasonably show the dual nature of Volcarona and its matchup fishiness. I think it's important to note that I think this is not the perfect Volc set (though it was perfect for the second game), so the roadblocks experienced in the first game could be beat with a different set (tera ground maybe?).
In conclusion, I think that this dual nature of Volcarona leads to less skillful counterplay from the opponent and if I had the time or drive, I would likely vote ban on Volc. However, as shown by previous suspects, opinions can change and as stronger arguments are made compared to mine here, I feel a stronger consensus can be made. I look forward to reading through the Volc suspect thread when it opens!
The set I have the most (read: any) experience with is from a hazard stack team from Maverick Shooters and Mencemeat (I can't find where I got the team from, my apologies for not redirecting correctly):
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Will-O-Wisp
- Quiver Dance
- Morning Sun
If you want the short form, I'll say that this is not Volc's most optimal set possible, but it absolutely has a place in the metagame and makes use of the defensive utility that makes the banning of Volc so controversial. It also very much makes use of the matchup fish nature of Volcarona and has both good and bad matchups. This set probably has more bad matchups than other Volc sets, but I'm unwilling to dedicate more time to research as A) I get rank competition anxiety that lets me play maybe 5 games at most per session and B) I'm in the midst of finals at uni.
To contribute to my discussion I want to discuss two of my replays.
Volc don't do shi-
I played extremely poorly this game, so that needs to be taken into consideration for this part of my analysis.
From preview, I figured that Volc would have a slightly rough game and need quite a few turns to set up quiver dances to be fully effective. In play, I bring volc in once and miss a wisp and that's it. I really had to get rid of Blissey, Glowking, and Kleavor for it to be effective. Plus, without Bug Buzz, I was very wary of the Woger matchup. There was a possibility of me bringing Volc in against Corv, but with Twave Blissey in the back, it wasn't effective. Although my play wasn't perfect, I felt that my overall goal was in a reasonable spot for the game: either get rid of the special walls so Volc could win, or get rid of Corv to take advantage of Great Tusk's decent matchup (not sure what I would've done against Woger before the setup race at the end).
As for self-criticism, I finally learned just how good Garg could be this game, so that was amazing. I think the biggest oversight in this game was just how good Ghold was and I prob could've spent more time in with him. Bliss, Corv, Glowking, and Kleavor were pretty deadweight against it. I need to learn more about Enamorous to determine how my team can matchup against it and any advice would be appreciated.
Volc absolutely balls
Man, this game really shows just how dominant Volc can be. For my skill level (read: time investment), I was punching above my weight against this opponent. And I don't think they could do a single thing against Volc. We both could've played better in the Volc vs Dragonite matchup, but once I won that part, I won the game. Morning Sun gave me more space to setup and I would have so many opportunities to fish for Fiery Dance boosts (I'm shocked I didn't get a single one). Volc won the game as soon as it beat Dragonite and my opponent couldn't really do anything about it.
Although both games are imperfect, I think both reasonably show the dual nature of Volcarona and its matchup fishiness. I think it's important to note that I think this is not the perfect Volc set (though it was perfect for the second game), so the roadblocks experienced in the first game could be beat with a different set (tera ground maybe?).
In conclusion, I think that this dual nature of Volcarona leads to less skillful counterplay from the opponent and if I had the time or drive, I would likely vote ban on Volc. However, as shown by previous suspects, opinions can change and as stronger arguments are made compared to mine here, I feel a stronger consensus can be made. I look forward to reading through the Volc suspect thread when it opens!
Your opponent had 2 steels, Kyurem and a meowscarada.
that’s a stereotype team weak to Volc.
therefore good team design would have more ways to check volc than just a standard dragonite set. Maybe the gambit would be fire type, the knight might have dragon and brave bird, the slowking can use toxic.
and in the event you were happy with that volc weak team, good game play would mean pressuring the volc and knowing you can lure it out with 3 Pokémon’s to dent it.
I’m sorry, this doesn’t show the duality of volc anymore than a team weak to any specific threat shows it.
thanks for sharing the replays, encouraging more people to share replayed, once you have to show what's actually OP about volc it will make it more clear why it’s significantly more manageable than you think
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Actual imposter behavior, bro isn’t the real lugia they were merely a poser
Lugia remains banned from OU!
Also if they really wanted Lugia to be tested they wouldn’t pretend to be Lugia on the forums and pretend to be Lugia, and play in a room tournament with it allowed to see if it would be able to be tested like any reasonable person would and not be ridiculous and impatient like that.
I will admit it was funny as fuck though that someone pretended to be Lugia.
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I feel this so hard. It's such a finicky Pokemon that hits a little less hard than you'd hope with stabs and is ONE point too slow but, even after trying out Weavile for a similar role, the power of Protean U-Turn and Low Kick is just so addictive.
Meowscarda seems like it should be so much better in my opinion. With a decent ability, great move pool, above-average speed, and even some utility, it seems like it should be great. It even can potentially break certain stall teams with some support by itself. idk what it always seem to hit short to me.
A little too frail to set up with. A little too slow to Band with. JUST fast and strong enough to make my brain go sparkle when I hit a lowkick on Gambit. JUST cute enough to make me wish I could name it "Miss Silly" and post it on Poketok. Truly, a travesty
With that being said, I have been having fun with Band+tera Blast fire. The coverage it gets is fun when combined with the usual tools.
I definitely overuse Zapdos. It's still a good Mon, but it only fits on very specific teams.
Greninja was another Pokemon I tried to make work for way too long, but unlike Zapdos, who's still really solid, Greninja is just not good post DLC 2. I eventually dropped it, but at least both are good in UU right now (I'd argue Zapdos is No.1 in the teir right now)
The main issue with it is that its typing is so horrible. Grass+Dark, for all its merits, cannot touch gambit and struggles to hit many common type pairings. This means it always has to have a coverage move to deal even super effective damage against a lot of targets. This really limits its moveslots since it needs stabs and triple axel to be an offensive threat. You don't really want to drop u-turn so that limits set variety, as only the item really changes. And I don't think we need to talk about its defensive qualities. Calling it a shit defensive typing would be putting it nicely and if I accurately explained how bad it was, I would get banned from Smogon.
Though I will say, it is impressive that Meow is even in OU, despite the fact it should probably be ranked in UU. Its beaten a mythical and a legendary (and two shit mons in ZU, sorry but cacturne and shiftry ain't the stuff) in tiering that have the same typing, so it shows how everything else with it is good.
For an innovation, I already talked about toxic spikes meow, but in the past I've used protective pads meow. This was mainly when zapdos was better and meow was better, and teams that would rely on rocky helmet/static procs would get decimated.
Unpopular pick, but Latios is really fun from how I've been using it. I've been using the bread and butter of choice specs and Draco-meteor. On balance teams with tusk, it's decent acting but not the best. I've had the most success using it as a breaker on boots spam team: https://pokepast.es/83eca8be92cc2e9e. Boots-spam teams never have choiced Pokemon since they die to hazards and don't carry Tusk. Latios levitate fixes the issues with hazards mostly and even wish will recovery any chip done rocks from a mon like alo. Even kambit takes considerable damage from specs meaning the checks won't lost forever. Latios only really struggle if they have both a dark and fairy type. Then it's just 50/50 from there of what to click between luster purge and draco.
Protective Pads is nice when you have removal, as is Expert Belt, which helps you become a fair chunk more potent without life orb chip, and it's coverage is so wide that you'll be hitting Super Effective often. It feels likenit needs stabs, U Turn, Triple Axel, and Low Kick(legit so many Gambits just it on the thing in lowish-mid ladder), but I've honestly found Flower Trick to be the most replaceable thing of those four, at least before Garg resurfaced. Sucks for the Alo match up but with any electric attacker and your Knock, tools are available.
This is typically how I've felt to be honest. With the sheer girth of grass attackers it feels as though Flower Trick is easily the most replacable, barring the Garg match up of course. But even outside of that, it has many effective tools to swap out with. I use it more as a full frontal breaker, so I've largely used Band with Knock/Tera *insert flavor here*/Low Kick/Triple Axel. But with the sheer amount of dragons and grasses etc that resist it, I've found Play Rough to be rather consistent.
I'm probably not the person to say this since I usually wind up dropping it for better mons, but I'm at the point where I would almost say Meow is a UU mon without Tera Fire. Not having to worry about being burned on the Triple Axel or whatever is huge. I suppose Protective Pads could work, but then you are probably giving up the opportunity for mostly better items like HBD or Choice items.
I really wanted to run Fire Tera Blast on it since you hit the Metal Birds. But I could never really justify the room for it. I guess you would have to replace Low Kick or U-turn on certain sets. It doesn't feel too great, though.
I really wanted to run Fire Tera Blast on it since you hit the Metal Birds. But I could never really justify the room for it. I guess you would have to replace Low Kick or U-turn on certain sets. It doesn't feel too great, though.
Meow as a whole just feels like a UU mon to me honestly. The choice of item is a big annoyance because no matter what you pick, it will have issues. Band has power but relies on prediction and also needs a good amount of anti hazard help as otherwise contact punishing chip+hazards quickly wears it down. Without a band or other boosting item, it feels like too often it falls short of KO thresholds without more chip on targets which makes it less reliable at revenging stuff you'd want it to. This is what I think makes scarf, at least personally to me, feel kinda underwhelming sometimes. So going to Pads for an item solves the contact conundrum but leaves it both hazard weak and lacking immediate power which makes it less threatening. Ladder still seems to love this thing despite it just not really being all that great right now (and it had a pretty miserable SPL run).
I don't care if me when I actually hit 1750 or so some time ago going to bat for this mediocre cat is the same as Gen 4 Donphan or Electevire being OU exclusively by usage. It is simply a Fun Pokemon and I shan't give in.
Don't use Electivire in Gen 4 OU. That mon is horrible and even me, a gimmick player, will not use it. It needs to be dropped into UU or NU. You are just prolonging its suffering.