Whimsicott (Placeholder)

[kniteowl]

I think worry seed should at least get a mention, since it halves the speed of sandstorm doryuuzu and rain kingdra, while taking off roobushin's guts and gliscor's poison heal...

True but stun spore is a lot more useful overall as it para other pokemon like choice scrafers and pokemon with doublespeed in weather are also affected. As for guts and poison heal pokemon, assuming I've already seed them I'll just infinitely use sub or encore a ineffective atttack or non-attack like bulk up.

I can only see worry seed on poison heal breloom but that's only until it's DW ability is released.

The other reason is that Worry seed has Lower PP, I generally find myself spamming stun spore when my erufuun has nothing else to do as I want to conserve my precious substitute/leech seed & encore PP

Btw is worry seed permenant like para, will a pokemon's original ability return after they switch?

I find that Toxic Spikes pokemon make good partners with Erufuun as toxic damage combined with leech seed eliminates my opponents pokemon faster.

Someone forgot to mention Magic Guard users as counters.

How many pokemon actually use magic coat fequently? Deoxy-S in which case you'll switch anyway and possibly porygon 2 which I've never seen use magic coat.

Momen is superior to Erufuun but I'll miss my leftovers... I generally like using substitute 1st when I lead with my erufuun to scout out what moves they may use.

 

[Lorenz]

How the heck do you counter this thing? Everything I throw at it ends up hitting a Sub before anything and most of the ones I've run into are carrying Charm stopping any physical priority. This this is really annoying.

 

[Zebstrika]

reasons Erufuun is out classed my Monmen:
1. with an Evolution Stone, Monmen is bulkier

Actually, Whimsicott is still bulkier specially, I believe. Cottonee may be slightly bulkier physically, but after Leftovers healing, this is no longer the case.

 

[Lee]

Not gonna lie, my interest in this has kinda waned for the following reason:

"Erufuun is outclassed by Monmen"

Yeah, that's it. The only disadvantage Evolution Stone Monmen has over Erufuun is that it doesn't get Leftovers healing, but that's made up for with:

- "better" Leech Seed healing due to lower base HP
- More bulk in terms of raw def/sdef stats.
- Irrelevant Attack making the lower stats nearly irrelevant
- Lower Speed meaning that it takes less damage from Gyro Ball in the few times it's relevant, with Mischievous Heart making speed irrelevant.

So yeah... thoughts?

Using a 252 HP / 252 Def+ spread, Erufuun hits the following defensive tiers:

Physical - 120.3
Special - 115.5

Using the same spread, Evolution Stone Monmen hits the following defensive tiers:

Physical - 121.0
Special - 115.1

Sample calcs to better illustrate that.

Garchomp 252 Atk Outrage vs 252/252+ Erufuun = 48% - 57%
Garchomp 252 Atk Outrage vs 252/252+ Monmen = 45% - 53%

Latios 252 SpA Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Erufuun = 89% - 105%
Latios 252 SpA Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Monmen = 92% - 109%

The difference in bulk is minimal, and when you consider that Erufuun can hold Leftovers I'd say that Erufuun gets the nod in terms of bulkiness. Leftovers also nullifies any advantage that Monmen has in terms of Leech Seed healing.

Taking less damage from Gyro Ball is nice but you also lose the ability to do things like Encore Scizor's Swords Dance before he uses Bullet Punch or Breloom's Swords Dance before he uses Mach Punch.

I'm leaning towards Erufuun > Monmen.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Someone forgot to mention Magic Guard users as counters.

No. They still get Encored/Taunted if they try to set up, and Erufuun/Monmen still get HP back, even if they don't lose any. They're outstalled if they switch in on Substitute.

 

[Lee]

Oh, and Erufuun is a good user of Trick Room if you're of the opinion that TR-dedicated sets are analysis-worthy (and to be fair, I won't disagree if you don't).

Trick Room teams tend to struggle with powerful boosters coming in and setting up when TR isn't in effect but Erufuun shuts that strategy down and can use the free turn to set TR back up.

I mentioned it a few months ago in the TR thread here and some people over on PO must like it because it's listed on the PO Erufuun stats page. When I last used it but I always found that it brought a little more to the team than conventional TR Pokemon such as Porygon2 and Dusclops that tend to just set up TR and then jerk off. OC perhaps?

 

[ParaChomp]

Oh, and Erufuun is a good user of Trick Room if you're of the opinion that TR-dedicated sets are analysis-worthy (and to be fair, I won't disagree if you don't).

Trick Room teams tend to struggle with powerful boosters coming in and setting up when TR isn't in effect but Erufuun shuts that strategy down and can use the free turn to set TR back up.

I mentioned it a few months ago in the TR thread here and some people over on PO must like it because it's listed on the PO Erufuun stats page. When I last used it but I always found that it brought a little more to the team than conventional TR Pokemon such as Porygon2 and Dusclops that tend to just set up TR and then jerk off. OC perhaps?

Wait, Trick Room has a priority of -7. How does that work?

 

[Lee]

Just like any other Trick Room user except you beat most phazers to the punch.

 

[TwilightWings]

I'd just like to let you guys know that espeon and xatu (with their dream world abilities) will completely destroy erufuun... just saying.

 

[Rhys DeAnno]

This is a pretty goofy idea, but Ive seen CB Scizor come into Erufuun quite frequently on Sub to U turn the Substitute away, and HP Fire does 58.3%-68.8% to standard CB 248/0 with no investment. It also even does 31.5%-37.2% to 252/252+ Natty, which is sort of less useful but means you can at least not be forced out by it all the time. Erufuun likely has much better things to do but it may be worth an OC mention.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

You know, that's actually a good idea. I know that in LC, HP Fire Monmen completely rapes its normal counters (Snover, Teshiido), and the fact that Monmen isn't susceptible to Leech Seed means it's effective against Nattorei as long as it has a way to damage it.

 

[madgenius2013]

The "Cottonee vs Whimsicott" argument is remarkably similar to "Chansey vs Blissey". It's all a case of Leftovers recovery and bulk vs more bulk.

All in all, both are acceptable. Just because Chansey enters OU, Blissey doesn't have to exit.

 

[masterful]

I think U-turn really needs a mention slashed in on the last two slots of the set, as with priority Encore and Stun Spore, Erufuun forces a ton of switches and can work really well as a scout even with its low attack

 

[GtM]

The "Cottonee vs Whimsicott" argument is remarkably similar to "Chansey vs Blissey". It's all a case of Leftovers recovery and bulk vs more bulk.

...except Chansey has more or less the same BST as Blissey, whereas Cottonee's is much worse than Whimsicott's.

 

[Iconic]

Using a 252 HP / 252 Def+ spread, Erufuun hits the following defensive tiers:

Physical - 120.3
Special - 115.5

Using the same spread, Evolution Stone Monmen hits the following defensive tiers:

Physical - 121.0
Special - 115.1

Sample calcs to better illustrate that.

Garchomp 252 Atk Outrage vs 252/252+ Erufuun = 48% - 57%
Garchomp 252 Atk Outrage vs 252/252+ Monmen = 45% - 53%

Latios 252 SpA Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Erufuun = 89% - 105%
Latios 252 SpA Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Monmen = 92% - 109%

The difference in bulk is minimal, and when you consider that Erufuun can hold Leftovers I'd say that Erufuun gets the nod in terms of bulkiness. Leftovers also nullifies any advantage that Monmen has in terms of Leech Seed healing.

Taking less damage from Gyro Ball is nice but you also lose the ability to do things like Encore Scizor's Swords Dance before he uses Bullet Punch or Breloom's Swords Dance before he uses Mach Punch.

I'm leaning towards Erufuun > Monmen.

this sums things up pretty nicely

QC Approved 1/3

 

[Gamegenie222]

You guys needs to update this also what about a set using a Modest nature?

 

[Whimsical Scott]

Just for a gimmick, how about worry seed? It nullifies an ability while stoping rest-talkers. It's situational but it could catch things like Heatran or flame orb/guts Conkledurr on the switch. It's pretty useful against anything that relies on it's ability or rest.

Never mind I'm just repeating :P I didn't know

 

[NatGeo]

I have permission from Seven Deadly Sins to take over Whimsicott. Placeholder can be found here

 

[Bloo]

Moved to L&O.