Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[baddjordan]

I made a post 2 weeks ago about putting lando in its own tier, and it was deleted, and then this update happens. Can I have an explaination?

 

[Colonel M]

I made a post 2 weeks ago about putting lando in its own tier, and it was deleted, and then this update happens. Can I have an explaination?

All of the questions are answered in this post. It will explain why Landorus-T is in its own tier and why Toxapex "dropped" as well.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

All of the questions are answered in this post. It will explain why Landorus-T is in its own tier and why Toxapex "dropped" as well.

I belive he was refering to why his post was deleted and not the rise of lando.

Anyways,

Tapu Koko A+=>S- Agree

Tapu Koko has always had great offensive presence in the SM metagame but I belive that it takes great advantage of the current pokemon being used. The drop of Marowhack-Aloan to UU has been the biggest boon for this bastard as that was the mon that hard checked any set Tapu koko was running. I'd like to propose something that I havn't seen brought to the argument yet, that being Mixed Koko. Mixed Koko can manage to provide the sheer power of the original while being able to weaken most of it's new checks such as AV bulu, with brave bird it can manage to wrack up a 2hko on Bulu.With Hp ice it can manage to 2hko Zygarde,Garchomp and Lando. With Wild charge/Thunderbolt it gets it's normal pressure while lowerd by it's worsend investment is still really damn high. And Volt switch Provided the Normal utility of Koko. I've also been seeing HP fire on a few kokos which give it coverage against ferrothorn but then agian I don't think HP fire is all to viable, just think It was worth a mention. The biggest boon however is that even if You mispredict you aren't locked in and can easily Volturn out which was the biggest flaw of the original specs set. If we are talking about pokemon who define the meta but aren't as good as lando I think Koko is the perfect Canidate for that slot.

• 
  
  Tornadus-T from B to B+ Agree
  
  Not really much I can add here just thought I'd agree. The Flyuim Z can easily Damage the mons that switch in and wall break terrifying threats, Knock off provided great annoyance to anything bar megas that want to switch into this thing. Defog+Regen+U-turn however is the main reason why this thing would ever need a rise, I don't feel like I need to explain the sheer utility this provides as others have already.
  
  
  
  Bisharp B to B-/C+
  This is a nomination that I would like to make. The truth is that the nich in anti intimidate that bisharp supports isn't as needed as it once was. It can no longer spam sucker punch on lando the one mon it was used for, Defensive lando completly demolishes this thing.
  The issue with the sucker punch drop really does hurt it far to much, Lets take a mon with fairly meh Defensive stats like Xurkitree for example. 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 195-229 (63.5 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  Bisharp's Middling speed tier makes it far to weak to deal with fast mons making Sucker punch it's only way to deal with them if it doesn't want to be killed due to it's bad speed.
  As a pursuit user I don't feel this mon is worth using compared to the sheer power of tyranitar and the usefulness of weavile.
  Bisharp's only saving grace is low kick which it can use to Conquer Heatran but if you do that you'll need to be forfieting another of bisharps useful moves such as knock off,Iron head, Sucker punch, Swords dance, Pursuit and even psycho cutter.
  Everything Bisharp was once used for it has fallen off in. Even as an anti Intimidate mon Milotic does this role much better as it can wrack up hefty damage since it's at+2, and that mon can actully beat lando. It may have another niche as an anti defoger but then again for something like that milotic fills the role much better, even something as worthless as wigglytuff can preform this role better as that packs competative and stealth rocks. This mon isn't as strong as the rest of the mons in B and I feel that it deserves a drop.
  
  
• 
  
  Manectric-Mega C+ to B-/B
  With the raise of Tapu I feel that one of it's best partners should get a mention aswell, the volturn power from koko is increadibly strong as we have astablished throughout this thread, so what happens if a mon came along that had a base 135 in both speed and spattack, had volt switch aswell and also managed to have a movepool to support the classic ferro check that koko deals with. Of course this mon takes up your mega slot which can be an issue but suprisingly there is only 1 Mega in A and above which is Scizor and 6 in the A rank total, the Megas aren't as strong as they once were and I belive that it's a shame not many people are capitalizing on this and using Mega Manectric on there teams. Mega manectric of course is strong outside of Koko, since it can also function as a koko switch in with lighting rod and benifet of the terrain it sets up. HP ice and Tbolt give it a psuedo bolt beam coverage which is helpful against many mons such as Lando,Gliscor,Celesteela and Toxapex. Flamethrower and it's high base speed also allow it to check Kartana if it's not scarfed which has become rare.
  Mega Manectric is a fantastic mon with it's intimidate Volt turn lighting rod support and also a mon with terrifying offensive pressure under electric terrain and good coverage without it. I belive without a doubt it's as if not more useful than the mons in B- such as mega herracross.

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

A+ to S-: Agree
This thing has a ton of utility like Lando-T, and I feel like it's popularity + good speed / attack stat with Electric Terrain truly makes this thing in the same tier as Heatran. Tapu Koko is almost meta-defining at this point, and I see it everywhere at VGC.

 

[Finchinator]

A+ to S-: Agree
This thing has a ton of utility like Lando-T, and I feel like it's popularity + good speed / attack stat with Electric Terrain truly makes this thing in the same tier as Heatran. Tapu Koko is almost meta-defining at this point, and I see it everywhere at VGC.

While I agree Tapu Koko has plenty of utility, it clearly is not comparable to Landorus-T in this regard, in my opinion. In addition, please refrain from citing other metagames as reference points, such as you did in VGC, as they hold absolutely no relevance to OU metagame discussion.

 

[13_luckynumber]

To B-

Kingdra fits on only 1 team archetype: rain and it functions there as a sweeper/ wallbreaker. However, it struggles to break/ sweep consistently. First, balance teams now heavily utilise fully SpD Toxapex, which can eat any hit from Kingdra then recover or pivot accordingly. Second, offensive teams with Chansey are on the rise and the pink blob eats hit even better than Pex. Even without the blob, offense still has counterplays like Magearna, Mega Alakazam, Mimikyu, Greninja, priority or just sack TTar to bring sand then take advantage of a weak and slow Kingdra to set up. Finally, against stall, while uncommon, Kingdra has no realistic chance to break stuff there.

Another thing that warrants a drop for Kingdra is this: rain teams have outgrown Kingdra. It is no longer THE mon to use on rain like it once was. Good, consistent rain teams can be built without Kingdra rather easily. Usage stats show this too since Kingdra's usage is significantly lower than Pelipper's and Swampert's.

Kingdra fits better in B- with Quagsire, Skarmory (niche stall mon) or Stakataka (niche TR mon) or Victini (niche on ONE outdated team) or Mimikyu (niche on ONE outdated playstyle) or Latias (bad
niche scarfer on offense)

to C+ (or B-)

This thing's niche is countering Kingdra and SG Magearna so when both threats become uncommon and less viable, it should definitely drop. I explained Kingdra's fell above and as for SG Magearna, it's simply uncommon atm to warrant a teamslot to Gastrodon.

Some one-liners cause most things have already been said or there's just not much to say:

Mega-Aerodactyl to UR: there's absolutely no reason to use this. It's weak and frail and there are better Flying checks
Lycanroc-Dusk to UR: use Terrakion
Tapu Koko to S- : you cant build an OU team with an actual Electric resist because of this thing. It is extremely influential in the tier and more than deserves to be S-
Tornadus-T stays B: it is not that good people. Don't get carried away with the hype. Also, with Koko going to S- getting a lot of support, it makes little sense for this to rise at the same time.

 

[TURBODERP]

to C+ (or B-)

This thing's niche is countering Kingdra and SG Magearna so when both threats become uncommon and less viable, it should definitely drop. I explained Kingdra's fell above and as for SG Magearna, it's simply uncommon atm to warrant a teamslot to Gastrodon.

Gastrodon may warrant dropping but it's niche is certainly bigger than what you're saying. Unless Koko is running Grass Knot, Gastro walls it and kills even CM sets with Earthquake. Ash Greninja also has a hard time getting past it (needs to flinch a few times). Those are two top-tier threats that Gastrodon reliably comes in on (let alone turning non-Twinkle Tackle Mag into a non-factor). Yes, hazards hurt, but that's true for...well, most mons.

 

[Finchinator]

Gastrodon may warrant dropping but it's niche is certainly bigger than what you're saying. Unless Koko is running Grass Knot, Gastro walls it and kills even CM sets with Earthquake. Ash Greninja also has a hard time getting past it (needs to flinch a few times). Those are two top-tier threats that Gastrodon reliably comes in on (let alone turning non-Twinkle Tackle Mag into a non-factor). Yes, hazards hurt, but that's true for...well, most mons.

Difference is that Gastrodon is especially bad in this regard as it allows Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and numerous others to set up hazards or get free turns (EQ isn’t doing near half to the latter). Overall, the passive nature of Gastrodon has led to it dropping in overall viability and while it does have a niche defensive presence, Pokemon like Tapu Bulu have been slapped onto a plethora of teams to check Tapu Bulu/Ash Gren well enough while providing an offensive presence, thus decreasing the overall viability of Gastrodon.

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

While I agree Tapu Koko has plenty of utility, it clearly is not comparable to Landorus-T in this regard, in my opinion. In addition, please refrain from citing other metagames as reference points, such as you did in VGC, as they hold absolutely no relevance to OU metagame discussion.

I apologize. + I meant to say it had a lot of utility, like Lando-T ( I did not mean to say that they were similar and I should have mentioned it had slightly less ). I just wanted to mention it had a lot of possibilities. I thought VGC and Smogon OU were related, so I apologize again.

Either way ( out of context ), I agree with Tapu Koko to S-.

Difference is that Gastrodon is especially bad in this regard as it allows Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and numerous others to set up hazards or get free turns (EQ isn’t doing near half to the latter). Overall, the passive nature of Gastrodon has led to it dropping in overall viability and while it does have a niche defensive presence, Pokemon like Tapu Bulu have been slapped onto a plethora of teams to check Tapu Bulu/Ash Gren well enough while providing an offensive presence, thus decreasing the overall viability of Gastrodon.

I agree with this.
With all of the grass-type coverage mons and ground-water types just outclassing it in general.

 

[Srn]

To B-

Kingdra fits on only 1 team archetype: rain and it functions there as a sweeper/ wallbreaker. However, it struggles to break/ sweep consistently. First, balance teams now heavily utilise fully SpD Toxapex, which can eat any hit from Kingdra then recover or pivot accordingly. Second, offensive teams with Chansey are on the rise and the pink blob eats hit even better than Pex. Even without the blob, offense still has counterplays like Magearna, Mega Alakazam, Mimikyu, Greninja, priority or just sack TTar to bring sand then take advantage of a weak and slow Kingdra to set up. Finally, against stall, while uncommon, Kingdra has no realistic chance to break stuff there.

Another thing that warrants a drop for Kingdra is this: rain teams have outgrown Kingdra. It is no longer THE mon to use on rain like it once was. Good, consistent rain teams can be built without Kingdra rather easily. Usage stats show this too since Kingdra's usage is significantly lower than Pelipper's and Swampert's.

Kingdra fits better in B- with Quagsire, Skarmory (niche stall mon) or Stakataka (niche TR mon) or Victini (niche on ONE outdated team) or Mimikyu (niche on ONE outdated playstyle) or Latias (bad
niche scarfer on offense)

to C+ (or B-)

This thing's niche is countering Kingdra and SG Magearna so when both threats become uncommon and less viable, it should definitely drop. I explained Kingdra's fell above and as for SG Magearna, it's simply uncommon atm to warrant a teamslot to Gastrodon.

Some one-liners cause most things have already been said or there's just not much to say:

Mega-Aerodactyl to UR: there's absolutely no reason to use this. It's weak and frail and there are better Flying checks
Lycanroc-Dusk to UR: use Terrakion
Tapu Koko to S- : you cant build an OU team with an actual Electric resist because of this thing. It is extremely influential in the tier and more than deserves to be S-
Tornadus-T stays B: it is not that good people. Don't get carried away with the hype. Also, with Koko going to S- getting a lot of support, it makes little sense for this to rise at the same time.

I can really agree with kingdra drop, prevalent walls like toxapex kind of invalidate it in favor of rain sweepers that can threaten it, like mega swampert.
But I fully disagree with Mega Aero to UR.

Mega Aero is a good fast attacker that can revenge kill some stuff and overall fits many nice niches that no other mon can fill in the tier. It can use eq to kill popular mons like koko and heatran after rocks, it can 1v1 most lando-t with ice fang (offensive variants die after rocks even to -1 ice fang), can revenge kill SD/band kartana with fire fang, and check mega pinsir+volc with stone edge at full health, as well as revenge kill some dd mons like dragonite, adamant zygarde, and gyarados (lots of chip if mega) at +1.
If there's any other pokemon that can do all of this without being burdened by scarf in the tier, it'd be ok to unrank aero, but as it stands, it is still an adequate revenge killer and check to many relevant mons that can comfortably fit onto offensive teams.

relevant calcs

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 276-328 (86.5 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 304-360 (117.3 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 324-384 (90.5 - 107.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While I do think that the only real viable set is 4 attacks with Stone Edge, Fire Fang, Ice Fang, and Earthquake, aero has a lot of other options like roost, taunt, stealth rock, pursuit, aerial ace, aqua tail, defog etc and can be customized according to team. I personally think Another coverage move like fire fang/eq/ice fang is better than aerial ace bc ace is really only hitting keldeo and venu where as eq/fire fang/ice fang have much more important targets, like tapu koko, heatran, and magnezone for eq and ferrothorn, celesteela, scizor-mega for fire fang and lando-t, zygarde, and lando-t for ice fang.

Ultimately it's still a very viable pokemon that has just enough power and just enough bulk to still warrant a teamslot in the meta imo. Keep maero ranked in C- pls.

 

[FatBagel]

Nominating Stunfisk for C-.

At first this seems like a bad joke, but this thing is legitimately winning me games in high ladder (I just made 1900, #94 on ladder) by hard countering Koko/Haw cores, beating Mega Lopunny 1v1 and often taking down Mega Medichams. Ground/Electric is amazing typing and Stunfisk has just enough bulk to abuse it. For example, it eats a +2 HJK from Hawlucha after rocks, before KO'ing straight back with Discharge in the terrain. Static is an amazing ability too, abusing Fake Out Lop/Cham and U-Turners.

Why use this over Zapdos? Resistance to rocks, ability to set rocks, ground STAB to pick off Koko and chip away at Magearna and not being hit by tbolts from Koko.

The omnipresence of Koko has led me down a dark path, to even considering this thing, but for some reason it's working.

Replays (1700+):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-694012969
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-694010486
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-694009380

don't hate me pls, OU too stale and predictable

 

[MultiAmmiratore]

Nominating Stunfisk for C-.

At first this seems like a bad joke, but this thing is legitimately winning me games in high ladder (I just made 1900, #94 on ladder) by hard countering Koko/Haw cores, beating Mega Lopunny 1v1 and often taking down Mega Medichams. Ground/Electric is amazing typing and Stunfisk has just enough bulk to abuse it. For example, it eats a +2 HJK from Hawlucha after rocks, before KO'ing straight back with Discharge in the terrain. Static is an amazing ability too, abusing Fake Out Lop/Cham and U-Turners.

Why use this over Zapdos? Resistance to rocks, ability to set rocks, ground STAB to pick off Koko and chip away at Magearna and not being hit by tbolts from Koko.

The omnipresence of Koko has led me down a dark path, to even considering this thing, but for some reason it's working.

Replays (1700+):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-694012969
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-694010486
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-694009380

don't hate me pls, OU too stale and predictable

I'm not sure about this, I think that is Kind of outclassed by Hippowdown as it has a reliable recovery and better bulk, similiarly to stunfisk it can do all the things u mentioned and even punishing u-turn and fake out with rocky Helmet, stunfisk has an Electric stab capable of Killing hawlucha and spamming para, but without a recovery it can be easily chipped and not do well its work.

 

[FatBagel]

I'm not sure about this, I think that is Kind of outclassed by Hippowdown as it has a reliable recovery and better bulk, similiarly to stunfisk it can do all the things u mentioned and even punishing u-turn and fake out with rocky Helmet, stunfisk has an Electric stab capable of Killing hawlucha and spamming para, but without a recovery it can be easily chipped and not do well its work.

Hippo brings unwanted Sand imo, plus no Discharge/Static for paralysis. I think it's enough of a niche for C-.

 

[Counting Sheep]

Hippo brings unwanted Sand imo, plus no Discharge/Static for paralysis. I think it's enough of a niche for C-.

People run sand force on hippo if that sand is of not benefit to there team.

 

[FatBagel]

People run sand force on hippo if that sand is of not benefit to there team.

Ah fair, but I think it's important that Hippo can't kill Hawlucha, only phase it out (though admittedly, not as important as I originally thought).

Stunfisk also threatens Celesteela and Skarmory (which is really important for my team) which I would count as a small niche too, as generally spread paralyses on U-Turner's and physical attackers with Static/Discharge.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

With the outpouring of support for Tapu Koko, I'd like to make a couple of noms:

Kyurem-B: Stay in A

If you had asked me a couple of weeks ago I would've been prepared for a drop. But thanks to a resurgence of Koko, Kyurem again can rely on his valuable partner again. With Fusion Bolt boosted by Electric Terrain, he can smash through walls such as Heatran and Chansey in 2HKOs. He still manages to check the same pokemon as before, and being an ironclad check to relevant mons such as Bulu, Lando, Celesteela, Thapex, and even new mons on the scene like Gliscor and Tornadus. I believe he is still a very relevant pokemon, and has a pretty strong place in the meta.

Stunfisk?

Interesting nom, I do believe Hippo and Stunfisk act differently in terms of roles, Hippo is already pretty niche as it is, although Stunfisk could possibly outclass it. Can I see the set you used with Stunfisk FatBagel?

 

[FatBagel]

Stunfisk?

Interesting nom, I do believe Hippo and Stunfisk act differently in terms of roles, Hippo is already pretty niche as it is, although Stunfisk could possibly outclass it. Can I see the set you used with Stunfisk FatBagel?

Stunfisk @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Discharge
- Earth Power
- Protect

0 Spe allows you to outslow Marowak Alola in TR, Protect catches Mega Medi and Lopunnys who think they can HJK through you (and Hawlucha, if you so fancy), and then two stabs are obvious. Can run Scald/HP Ice if wanted for Lando, but I personally run Buzzwole to Sub up on Lando's and fire off Ice Punches anyway.

 

[lydian]

Ah fair, but I think it's important that Hippo can't kill Hawlucha, only phase it out (though admittedly, not as important as I originally thought).

Stunfisk also threatens Celesteela and Skarmory (which is really important for my team) which I would count as a small niche too, as generally spread paralyses on U-Turner's and physical attackers with Static/Discharge.

Stunfisk is actually a very creative nomination, but in my eyes there's actually no merit in using over Hippowdon, which takes on Koko + Hawlucha cores much better than Stunfisk, as the lack of reliable recovery makes Fisk prone to getting worn down by Stealth Rock, Spikes, and occasional U-turns from Tapu Koko. You mention Hippowdon only phasing Hawlucha, but that's really all you need, as the Unburden Boost will be gone making Hawlucha much easier to handle. Threatening Celesteela and Skarmory is cool and all but it's clearly not enough to warrant Stunfisk a niche over Hippowdon.

 

[FatBagel]

Stunfisk is actually a very creative nomination, but in my eyes there's actually no merit in using over Hippowdon, which takes on Koko + Hawlucha cores much better than Stunfisk, as the lack of reliable recovery makes Fisk prone to getting worn down by Stealth Rock, Spikes, and occasional U-turns from Tapu Koko. You mention Hippowdon only phasing Hawlucha, but that's really all you need, as the Unburden Boost will be gone making Hawlucha much easier to handle. Threatening Celesteela and Skarmory is cool and all but it's clearly not enough to warrant Stunfisk a niche over Hippowdon.

Fair enough :)

I can certainly understand that, and imagine surprise factor is much of the reason Stunfisk does so well for me.

 

[BeardyBennett]

I actually really like the Stunfisk nom and support it. I think it has distinct niches and has proven viable in high ladder performing said niche. And with Tapu Fini, Greninja, and Keldeo all sliding a bit, that eliminates Water type revengers. I imagine it also can deal with Heatran, but I'm not too sure on that.

I really like the point in the original nom about Fisk being Rocks resistant while Zapdos is not. If Zapdos can't find Roost opportunities, it can lose its ability to check KokoLucha. For Fisk, this is much less likely. And I think it has enough over Hippo (paralysis spreading, Skarm and Steela harassing, probably deals with the increasingly popular/common Defogger of Torn-T) that it deserves consideration and to be ranked.

Tl;Dr Fisk to be ranked for semi-proven viability, distinct niches over similar mons (Hippo, Zapdos), and taking advantage of the following trends: KokoLucha, offensive Waters sliding, Rocker that beats popular and rising Defogger Torn-T.

 

[Leo]

And with Tapu Fini, Greninja, and Keldeo all sliding a bit, that eliminates Water type revengers.

Tapu Fini hasn't been popular since the first or first couple of months into SM about a year ago, Greninja is as good as it's always been assuming you're talking about Ash and Keldeo is still a good mon, there's still plenty of Water-types in the tier that threaten it.

I really like the point in the original nom about Fisk being Rocks resistant while Zapdos is not. If Zapdos can't find Roost opportunities, it can lose its ability to check KokoLucha. For Fisk, this is much less likely.

Zapdos isn't a Koko check and is usually kept healthy if the opponent has a Hawlucha until Hawlucha is sent into the field and uses up its seed so it's a good enough Hawlucha check assuming it doesn't run Stone Edge and a sr weakness isn't that big of a deal. You also have to consider that Zapdos has Roost to keep itself at a good amount of hp whereas Fisk is easily chipped at with U-Turn HP Ice Spikes etc.

And I think it has enough over Hippo (paralysis spreading, Skarm and Steela harassing, probably deals with the increasingly popular/common Defogger of Torn-T) that it deserves consideration and to be ranked.

I don't think Static and the ability to threaten out Celesteela, which isn't even that important considering all you do is force it out like any other Electric-type would without really getting any sort of advantage out of it outside of rocks, makes up for not having Sandstorm to chip at the opposing team and most importantly Slack Off as reliable recovery, which is one of the main reasons Hippowdon can acomplish its role as a physical wall and check to Hawlucha Lop etc whereas Stunfisk just takes a couple of hits prays for a para from static and then dies. I just don't see any reason to use this mon. Also Hippo has Toxic to annoy Torn and wears it down with sand+toxic damage stacking up.

As an aside the dude who originally nommed it already said it's probably not worth using so yea I think it's better to just leave this here and move on to something else

 

[Martin]

Stunfisk was better in gen 6 when it compressed flying resist+Volt immunity+rocker+contact punisher for talon birdspam/u-turners into one team slot for BO squads, and it was still pretty bad+team-specific then. No more talonflame means that it doesn’t really serve much purpose over other Ground-types, and what small purpose it does serve with its passive utility between Static+Helmet+Discharge+Rocks (<—the only reason it ever had a minute niche last gen) is just so stupidly team-specific that it’s virtually impossible to ever justify this Pokemon in this format at this time, and there’s also the fact that it just has a horrendous match-up versus a large % of the meta’s major threats (total Lando bait, forced out by Kartana, setup bait for Zyg, mostly invalidated by AV Bulu, Defogged on by Gliscor etc.). Re: “checks lucha” arguments, it’s really not very reliable between its lack of recovery outside of pain split/rest (neither of which it has room for on its set between SR+STABs+Toxic/Yawn, which are all necessary in order to actually uphold its ability to function) and the fact that it doesn’t need *that* much prior damage on it to be one-shotted by +2 HJK, meaning it only “checks” it if it gets lucky with Static.

Anyway I don’t agree with this nom and don’t think that the thread should be dominated by it ‘cuz it’s really not contentious lol—it’s an UR to C- nom lol just leave it alone—but before I go I just want to say that a lot of the anti-rank posts show a total lack of understanding as to when Stunfisk *should* be used, and a lot of the comparisons on both sides of the argument are just really not applicable to Stunfisk in practice. While I didn’t watch the replays, I glanced at the team preview in the first one and the team composition is too weird to really draw any conclusions from it wrt the way it plays, so I can’t really say whether the person who nommed it was making the most out of its attributes or not; regardless of that, the Hippowdon comparison is just bad imo because Stunfisk should be used for its passive utility on more offensively-inclined BO squads whereas Hippowdon has no place on such teams due to it not having enough passive utility to circumvent the fact it’s a total momentum sink. You can’t compare two Pokemon’s ability to fill a role on a team when the two Pokemon simply don’t fit onto the same teams, and realistically speaking while they check a similar range of Pokemon they don’t serve the same roles on any given team due to very simple differences like Static vs Sand Stream and recovery vs. no recovery. I’m only really able to comment on it because I used Stunfisk successfully in ORAS (different meta but the ‘mon’s role is no different this gen than it was last gen), but yeah it’s just a kinda crap comparison. The Zapdos comparison is a little less bad if you assume the comparison is to Static Roost+3 Atks Zapdos ‘cuz it fits on the same teams and also has the contact-punishing thing going for it, but even then it’s very flawed just because beyond resisting flying and punishing U-turn/other contact it serves a drastically different purpose on a team.

If I were to compare Stunfisk to any Pokemon, it’d be Helmet Lando or Helmet Chomp (the latter of which isn’t even relevant anymore really) because they block Volt Switch, punish U-turn/other contact, lack recovery, lay Stealth Rock, and are used on offensively-inclined teams for their passive/semi-passive utility. While Stunfisk has niches over both of these Pokemon (namely vs Tapu Koko in this near-Talonless metagame), they are just too small and team-specific to justify using the vast, vast majority of the time, and it is a much bigger momentum sap than both of them just due to the number of free switches it hands out without having really any way of circumventing a large number of them once it’s actually on the field (Lando’s U-turn, Chomp’s Dragon Tail) due to the fact that its method of doing so (Discharge) is totally ineffective versus the staple Ground-type that most teams should carry in this meta. It’s a case of it being one of those e-rank ‘mons that could maybe be used in one specific counterteam but is almost always not worth it, and as such it should not be ranked.

 

[Ampha]

Ok gonna nominate this thing out:

UR->C-/C
So you all are probably asking,why Kommo-o would be ranked out? and what is it's niche? Well,i'm gonna explain it
Kommo has got lots of new "toys" as USUM came in,but what makes it a thing is SUB Salac on Webs teams(Though Kommo's signature Z move can be good as well sometimes)

As many of you know it got belly drum as one of it's new moves and Substitute does abuse of that,since subs let it with 75% HP minus 50% as of belly drum being used,let it get on Salac berry's range,which in fact abuse of it's 110 Base attack and 85 base speed

The set:

Hide

Kommo-o @ Salac Berry
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Thunder Punch
- Drain Punch
- Substitute

->Drain punch let it recover the HP it lost plus it is a good STAB for this set
->Thunder punch covers it against Toxapex,celesteela,skarmory,etc which OHKOs
->Sub+Belly drum is the main set idea
->Bulletproof is the best ability for kommo normally


Replays to show what i'm saying:

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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-693276300 Kommo cleaned in after mew had fainted
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-688317920 Kommo cleaned out after setup vs Bulu
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-693343303 Kommo got 2 kills+let the way for blace to cleanout
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684943165
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684169895
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684133656
those 3 above are basically the same idea
Shoutouts for Cacatua and Caetano for the replays

Also considering Pex's normally run Sp def than def helps in fact kommo(even if +6 Thunderpunch already kills it),some common meta pokes also help it to setup,such as Ferrothorn,AV bulu,Zapdos(normally without HP Ice) and some other more
It's main threats are normally faster (Scarf) users which don't touch on webs such as Latios or Hawlucha after losing seed,(Unaware) clefable(Tpunch does 75% with Magic guard),Unaware quagsire or webs being taken off in general(since lele and other things can easily pass it that way with scarf)
C is fits better for it in my opinion but C- can be good as well

 

[robofiend]

UR->C-/C -> Agree
I agree that Kommo-o should be ranked. This set alone has a lot of of ways to set up since it can set up on SpDef Heatran, AV Tapu Bulu, CB locked Tyranitar, and any Ferrothorn with relative ease. With SR up it can kill Landorus-T using Dragon Claw and has a pretty good shot to kill Toxapex too, though those options come at the cost of not being able to beat the rare Tapu Fini or fairly common Clefable. Given how rare Ghosts are in OU, this thing's almost definitely going to be recovering HP after it Drums, which means the tier's faster Scarfers are going to have trouble beating it too, even if Webs aren't on the field. In the hands of a skilled player it can be really effective on the right team, though I will say that hard stall really limits its capabilities, since they usually run an Unaware mon to block these kinds of shenanigans. Of course, no Pokemon is without flaws, and Kommo's relative strength and uncontested niche as a webs Belly Drum sweeper is comparable to Bisharp or Shuckle, both lower-ranked Pokemon who have their place in a certain playstyle, assuming the right team support. I think putting it in C-/C is a good place to start.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Just want to go through these two discussion points.

Clefable from A to A-. Disagree.
Clefable is still a pretty solid Pokemon atm. Hawlucha is an absolute menace and Clefable is a pretty reliable check to it, Zygarde is top tier again, the Blacephalon hype died, Mega Medicham and Mega Lopunny are pretty solid ATM, and Mega Venusuar and Mawile are both rather uncommon as well atm. It is admittedly Heatran bait, but Heatran has been very dominant for a while and Clefable has stayed A. Like IMO the Meta is in favor of Clefable more than anything. It should stay A.

Tornadus-T from B to B+. Agree.
The Z-Hurricane set is really solid atm. Even though it does struggle with Toxapex, it is a pretty consistent defogger that also shuts down Defensive Landorus completely. Torandus has also been getting some tournament usage as well as on the ladder. I don't really have much else to say on this one.