Metagame USUM CAP Metagame Discussion

1) How has the metagame changed since Equilibra was released?
Changed directly for the worse. Originally CAP was quite diverse in playstyles but now it generally revolves around fat balance Equilbra cores to slowly chip down Equi checks and counters. Rotom-Wash has seen an extreme increase in usage, because it is one of the few Pokemon that can actually handle it, and even then it will often get slowly chipped down by ProTox variants as it struggles to significantly damage Equi with its STAB and fails to account for potential partners with Equilibra that might just hand the momentum over to the user. The Equilibra metagame is a metagame of voltturn - in an attempt to not lose momentum against the opposing Equilibra, I've found that the best way to stave this off is to use offensive VoltTurn cores like Syclant + Krilowatt and just evade Equilibra entirely.

2) How do you think Equilibra has affected the metagame? Positively? Negatively?

Very negatively.
What was once a metagame with a ton of options now becomes grossly centralized around one playstyle and trying to beat that one playstyle. Screens teams are now no longer as effective as Equilibra just outright walls half of the abusers and not only that, it hits hard when it comes in. A lot of the time I find it so difficult not to use Equilibra because of how punishing it is to a multitude of playstyles and just how easy it is to lock the opponent into a poor situation with a wallbreaker and an impending Doom Desire. This would be a cool benefit to the metagame if only Equilibra didn't get 11 billion chances to do it.

3) Should Equilibra undergo a nerfing process?


For the sake of the meta this mon needs to be nerfed heavily. Unfortunately the best way to do this is base stat reduction / ability removal, as Equi's limited movepool is already enough to carry it to a grossly centralizing level. One of the issues I find when discussing Equilibra is whether to remove Levitate or Bulletproof, as whilst removing Levitate would make breakers like Garchomp and Landorus-T better, it still leaves a lot of mons in the dust because of how disgustingly bulky this mon is for how punishing it is. Bulletproof would mean mons like Magearna and Megazam would be much better again and fall into the category that the last meta did. But seeing as Magearna was very powerful in that meta, it would probably be best to remove Levitate instead. I would also like to ask for a significant reduction in HP, for most of thw reasons stated above. So - nerf Equilibra, and the meta becomes a lot more fun to play imo.
 

Voltage

OTTN5
is a Pre-Contributor
1) How has the metagame changed since Equilibra was released?

Libra has either invalidated a ton of mons or forced many previously consistent mons to run "unsets". It can shut down most Psychic types like Zam and Lele, Magearna, and any other mon, like Jumbao, that relies on Focus Blast to hit Steel types. Then there's the fact that in order to beat Libra, many players have to take to things like SubRise zone (thanks snake), Hydro Vortex Latios (thanks Jordy and terra), Imprison Krill (quziel even if this is a joke) or have to use things like Mega Gallade or Snaelstrom which isn't something we should be doing in my opinion. Speaking from experience, and to echo previous posts, Rotom-W has been so prevalent lately, if only because you can resist or be immune to Libra's stabs, but even then you lose to Toxic and chip, which makes things even harder to handle.

Other general trends that have also popped up since the Libra release, anything with a speed greater than Base 100 is getting really good. Pajantom and Libra is such a good core. Char-Y is also really good and it does manage to OHKO Libra with Flamethrower, but that gets shut down by the often-common Equipex core. Screens Hyper Offense is dead (shout outs to my Week 2 CAPTT match for finding DD bypasses sceens when Libra is off the field), and a lot teams aren't really running as many Steel types just because Libra compresses that role down significantly.


2) How do you think Equilibra has affected the metagame? Positively? Negatively?

If it wasn't clear, I think Libra has had a significant and negative impact on the meta as a whole. As I alluded, the diversity in the tier now comes down to weird sets that have been built exclusively to handle Libra or its checks. You just don't see things like Mega Mawile, Volkraken, Volcarona, and other previously notable threats simply because Libra exists. One could argue that being a blanket check makes a lot of previously annoying threats a lot more manageable is a good thing, but personally I think that this mon in a way is comparable to Aegislash back in XY OU. Libra forces players to make a lot of either careful predictions or 50/50s or checkmate situations with DD. Both of its abilities that are commonly used are absolutely insane, and both are viable enough to where players have to either find a way to scout for the ability, or to play under the assumption of an ability (which, to be fair, isn't necessarily difficult sometimes).


3) Should Equilibra undergo a nerfing process?

Yes. As to what should be nerfed, that's a whole different discussion. Looking into the root cause of Libra I really do think that it would either need to be changing Bulletproof to a different ability, or we would need to remove some of Libra's amazing 102/96/118 bulk. Personally, I'm against removing Levitate on Libra, but I'm open to ideas about it as well. What it boils down to is that the metagame will be more fun if Libra gets nerfed. I've heard from a few players, and I've also felt this way, that CAP would be a lot more fun to play and build for if Libra weren't such a pain in the ass to deal with.
 
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Frostbiyt

Not Exactly Helping
1) How has the metagame changed since Equilibra was released?
I feel like this has been well covered in previous posts

2) How do you think Equilibra has affected the metagame? Positively? Negatively?
I think it's a bit of a mixed bag. While I don't think Magearna and Tapu Lele(and to a lesser extent, Alakazam) were broken, I do think they were somewhat unhealthy due to their difficulty to deal with and/or their wide variety of viable sets. Libra's ability to handle these mons to one degree or another(Fight Z Lele can get through Bulletproof and, as Jordy pointed out on Discord, Specs Lele can 3HKO with Psychic, so it's not a hard counter by any means), in my opinion, is a positive change to the meta and is an aspect of this mon we should attempt to p̸̩̹͎͆͌͊̈ͅr̴͈͚̆̀̊͋̆͠ͅè̸̢̲̺̘̹̘̮͋̋͝ͅͅs̶͓̯̱̻̙̳̦̏͋͋̆̕e̷̤̺͉͙̣̊̀̑͂̉̉͠r̷̠̫̩̗̬͚̦͗̇͆̌̀͘̚v̵̦̗̀̄̑͆̎͊́͌́̚è̴̛͈̰̻͍̬̗̗̟̋͗̉̊́̿̂̿ if it undergoes any nerfs.

Whether the changes to the meta are a net positive or negative, I can't say as I haven't played as much of the post-Libra meta as I'd like, but it seems like the consensus is that it has been a net negative.

3) Should Equilibra undergo a nerfing process?
I'm not convinced it needs to be nerfed currently, though like I said, I haven't played a ton since libra dropped. I just want to remind people that CAP is a smaller community, so the meta is going to take much longer to adjust to a new presence than bigger formats like OU, so we shouldn't be too hasty when it comes to deciding to nerf or not. Many of those that were around when Jumbao was released may remember people saying it was broken, which we now know is not the case.
 
1. How has the metagame changed since Equilibra was released?
If you're running Levitate on Equi, in my opinion it's the best (if not one of the best) hazard removers in the metagame rn. Equi is like Jordy said, Mega Alakazam and Garchomp have fallen out of style since Equi has dropped. Garchomp was one of the best rockers pre Equilibra. Since Equi is so popular people are running mons just to stop it. I've seen lots more of Koko+Lucha on the ladder recently.

2. How do you think Equilibra has affected the metagame? Positvely? Negatively?
I'm not sure how to answer this really but I think it's impacted it kind of negatively because some of the best mons aren't doing as well as you'd want them to be anymore, like magearna, chomper, zam. Since Equi can DD spam you're almost always gonna need to bring something that eats DD

3. Should Equilibra undergo a nerfing process?
It's def not as broke as crucibelle, moth and necturna. I'm gonna have to say yes for this one because if nothing gets done about it, it's gonna continue to dominate the metagame and keep it the same unless something is done about it. Personally i'd like to see it lose some SpA and SpD and maybe lose Levitate to make it more susceptible to spikes so it's not AS prominent of a spinner.
 

Wulfanator

Clefable's wish came true!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnus
1. How has the metagame changed since Equilibra was released?
I have to acknowledge that the meta favors balanced teams more than anything, as already stated. It's not bad. It's just different. Growing pains.

A lot of what Jordy listed in his post and from what I've played this meta reminds me of gen 6 OU. I, personally, find it easier to team build now. The thing that comes to my mind is that Libra is CAPs Lando-T. It's an easy pick for most teams. Fills a role, patches a hole, etc. Just with a less diverse toolkit at its disposal. Most sets are going to do the same thing, it's just what ability is Libra running. Which isnt a huge problem.

I think the problem lies in how ridiculously bulky Libra is. The fact it can live pretty beefy hits and get most of it health back with the berry sets is obnoxious. This is why I initially thought the abilities were the problem. The abilities carry the stats to a different level. I think a stat reduction to bulk would make Libra feel less oppressive on the meta.

2. How do you think Equilibra has affected the metagame? Positvely? Negatively?
I like the changes it has brought to the meta. While obnoxious, it isnt overtly broken. I think the combination of abilities plus limited toolkits makes it a balanced mon. I like that the meta is something I'm more familiar with.

3. Should Equilibra undergo a nerfing process?
I believe the only nerf should be directed at bulk. I think it would make the abilities more reasonable, and Libra as a whole less of a headache people feel the need to deliberately counter. This should grant more freedom for teams other than balanced.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Any updates on Libra nerfs? Not to sound harsh but the meta is in a pretty terrible state at the moment and I wouldn't mind like removing Libra in the time being until the situation gets resolved as it literally warps the meta around it to a ridiculously unhealthy degree.
 
Any updates on Libra nerfs? Not to sound harsh but the meta is in a pretty terrible state at the moment and I wouldn't mind like removing Libra in the time being until the situation gets resolved as it literally warps the meta around it to a ridiculously unhealthy degree.
I do believe the general plan is to finish the playtest before making any serious moves on the nerfing process. So i'd keep an eye on that tournament, and then look for further updates from the leaders of the community.
 
So with SM coming to an end soon, I figured a post like this would be useful to share some of my final observations of the current meta. Although I've done my best to keep important resources updated for CAP over time, metagame trends tend to get lost during generation shifts, so I hope that this post is of some use to someone who wants to play SM CAP in the future.

:jumbao:
At this moment, Jumbao is peaking. Thanks to its incredible typing combined with its very well-rounded stats, versatile movepool, and useful abilities, Jumbao can fill almost any role for many teams. It can naturally check Pokemon such as Tapu Koko, Krilowatt, and Pajantom pretty well. On top of that, Jumbao can even function as a Heatran check with Trace. Then there's also its other ability; Drought, which enables it to break past Steel-types such as Celesteela and Ferrothorn very easily. On top of that, thanks to its well-rounded stats combined with its useful typing, it'll almost always be able to come into play against Pokemon such as Arghonaut, Rotom-W, and Colossoil, making it very menacing to deal with for any team that lacks Mega Charizard Y or specially defensive Toxapex. Choice Scarf Jumbao is also amazing glue for more offensively oriented teams, providing them with solid Speed control options in order to keep Pokemon such as Necturna and Tapu Koko under control, while also providing them with valuable Healing Wish support.

:tornadus-therian:
The SM CAP metagame lacks many good removal options, so Tornadus-T is often resorted to on many bulkier momentum-based builds. Defoggers that are popular in SM OU, such as Tapu Fini simply aren't as generally useful in CAP because the Pokemon they check are much less prominent here, like Ash-Greninja. Running Tornadus-T as your Defogger will almost always give you an upper hand in the hazard game, as it is particularly hard to wear down, and not many hazard setters can adequately deal with it in 1-on-1 situations, as it can cripple pretty much all of them.

:fidgit:
I just briefly wanted to touch on Trick Room teams in general because they're rated pretty highly at the moment. When using or facing Trick Room teams, managing your sacks is incredibly important, and is why Trick Room is a rather inconsistent, matchup-fishy archetype from my experience. It's a high risk high reward composition that does have a lot of potential, but if the opposition knows how to play around it, it can fall over really quickly.

:latias-mega:
Despite the exceptional prominence of Pursuit in the CAP metagame, Mega Latias is one of, if not the best wincons in the metagame right now. Thanks to its typing and natural bulk, it's one of the best checks to very good Pokemon such as Kartana, Mega Alakazam, and Arghonaut. On top of that, Mega Latias can overcome almost all of its common counterplay between options such as Substitute, Reflect Type, and Thunderbolt, making it very hard for teams to consistently keep it in check.

:equilibra:
Although Equilibra now lets up momentum against Pokemon such as Mega Latias, Rotom-W, and Arghonaut pretty easily, it's still a good Pokemon. Doom Desire is an incredible tool that can overwhelm teams pretty consistently with adequate positioning. Equilibra is also 1 of the few good hazard removal options besides Tornadus-T, as it does pretty well against Stealth Rock setters. On top of that, Bulletproof Equilibra is still one of the better checks to Psychic-types such as Mega Alakazam and Tapu Lele, making it very useful for many teams. Equilibra also has access to Levitate, which makes it incredibly hard to wear down and allows it to check other Pokemon, such as Landorus-T and Excadrill, although going with this does make it harder to check Psychic-types. It also has many niche options available, namely Pain Split, Perish Song, and Flash Cannon which allow it to stay healthy, deal with Calm Mind users such as Mega Latias and Clefable, and also let it pressure Tapu Lele with much more ease respectively.

:tyranitar-mega::weavile::tyranitar:
Since I mentioned it earlier, I'd also like to mention Pursuit and why it's such a good tool in CAP. The main reason why Pursuit is so strong in CAP is because it's one of the few ways to consistently deal with Pajantom, which is a very menacing wallbreaker that is very hard to check defensively. To add onto that, it's also one of the best ways to force damage onto Pokemon such as Tornadus-T, Heatran, and Choice-locked Tapu Lele, making them far easier to deal with.

:kyurem-black:
I briefly wanted to touch on Kyurem-B because in this metagame that's dominated by bulkier builds, it really is one of the most consistently performing wallbreakers.

:tomohawk:
Although its infamous Prankster + Haze set has almost disappeared completely, various other Tomohawk sets are still good options to check prominent wallbreakers such as Kartana. On top of that, it's really hard to consistently check defensively, as its checks are easily pressured and worn down, or struggle to deal with options such as Taunt in the case of Toxapex. In my opinion, Intimidate is far more useful than Prankster because it actually improves Tomohawk's matchup against Kartana and Excadrill.

:greninja-ash:
Don't use this. Ash-Greninja is absolutely awful in CAP. The fact that Jumbao, Arghonaut, and a bunch of softer checks such as Krilowatt are very prominent, make it struggle a lot as a wallbreaker. Compared to other Spikes setters, it also doesn't really provide teams with anything notable beyond a Pokemon that can overwhelm Mega Latias. Just don't use it.

:jumbao::kartana::greninja::lopunny-mega::victini::ditto:
Speed control is one of the most restricting things in the CAP metagame. This is partly because of Necturna's prominence, as Speed control options pretty much all have to deal with it. This has resulted in a really small pool of viable options.
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
Unsure whereelse to put this, but given that gen7 cap is over, here's a brief teamdump.

Dragonite @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Fly
- Fire Punch
- Roost

Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Toxic Spikes

Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Bullet Punch
- High Jump Kick
- Zen Headbutt

Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak

Syclant @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mountaineer
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Tail Glow
- Hidden Power [Grass]

This team is a fairly simple one; HO designed to match up positively vs all other HO builds. Taunt Gren + Double Prio Medi are here to help out the TR matchup as much as they can by preventing TR from going up, and then wasting turns if it does. DD Dnite + Syclant + Dual Prio Medi all have their role to play against rain (aka sash syclant will always beat swamp under rain if it doesn't get flinched, and a +3 Syc is very difficult to come in on). And Mimikyu is here to simply just annoy enemy offense as much as possible. As for the bulk matchup Tspikes do insane work vs pretty much any fat build, and we have MMedi with hazard support to provide even more support.


Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Recover

Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pursuit
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Knock Off

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Sacred Sword
- Return

Rotom-Wash @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog

Jumbao @ Fairium Z
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Flame Burst
- Shore Up


In all honesty, the meta's pretty damn bulky atm, which makes it prime Reuniclus food, especially given that EquiPex is still around. A lot of the kinda EquiPex teams are gonna be running something like Pajantom as their main answer to anything fat on the opposing side which is where Weavile comes in, trivially trapping it. Fairy-Z Jumb rounds this out by forcing Pex in, thus giving Reun free turns, and then we have washtom/kart/heatran to provide further support.



Tapu Bulu @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 236 HP / 144 Atk / 32 SpD / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Horn Attack
- Superpower

Heatran @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Earth Power

Kommo-o @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 116 SpD / 140 Spe
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Protect
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Hurricane
- Defog
- Knock Off

Greninja @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Grass Knot

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Atk / 16 Def / 220 SpD
Impish Nature
- Pursuit
- Bullet Punch
- Roost
- Knock Off


Honestly unsure why I didn't use this team as its super functional, and highlights a real fun set in Pursuit Knock Mzor, which matches up vs a bundle of threats atm such as Mlati twins, Paj, and Mzam. This is used to support SD Bulu, which basically can kill any bulky team once Mlati is weakened enough. Kommo-o+Tran+Torn is still an absurdly good defensive core, covering basically every defensive typing, and guaranteeing everything will be toxic'd by the late game. Scarf Gren is here to beat up stuff if it boosts up.



Celesteela @ Metronome
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Autotomize

Pajantom @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Spirit Shackle
- Ice Punch

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled

Rotom-Wash @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off
- Smart Strike

Colossoil @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Facade


Autotomize Celesteela is sorta weird atm, as it can freely set up on an absolute ton of meta mons such as Equilibra, Some Kartana, and then proceed to pretty easily sweep as Metronome helps you break past Haze and Unaware mons like Pex and Argh. Air Slash is great neutral coverage, and is gonna be your primary tool, and is supported by Fire Blast while beats Equi, and Earthquake to break past Heatran. While this coverage is good, its not great, which is where the rest of the team comes in. We have Ghost-Z Paj and Coloss to sorta just force stuff to die, with Coloss doing a ton of work vs enemy Rotom-Wash for Cele. Finally, Clef means you don't just get Mmedi'd (that hard), Kart loves the fact that Cele will weaken a lot of its checks (eg mlatis), and Rotom-Wash is here to make the Rain matchup winnable.

(I'll be editing in more teams as I get more time)[/hide]
 
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MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
jw, but is there any particular reason that Voodoom, Plasmanta, and the other bottom-tier CAP mons haven't been buffed?

Buffing unviable mons is a natural complement to the recent nerfs of over-viable mons, imo. Plus, it's a shame to have projects go to waste when they could be revitalized.
 

Gross Sweep

Plan Ahead
is a CAP Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
jw, but is there any particular reason that Voodoom, Plasmanta, and the other bottom-tier CAP mons haven't been buffed?

Buffing unviable mons is a natural complement to the recent nerfs of over-viable mons, imo. Plus, it's a shame to have projects go to waste when they could be revitalized.
This question is actually something I was discussing with some friends fairly recently. After that discussion along with some personal reflection I find myself leaning towards saying no with regards to buffing competitively nonviable mons. I want to take a step back and discuss this problem in terms of the big picture. The idea that CAP as a community can make 20 almost 30 fully viable mons that all find usage and a prominent role, especially when mixed with all the mons in OU, seems unrealistic to me. Even Game Freak who have been designing mons since the 90's have plenty of duds mixed in with some historic greats like Tyranitar who has been firmly an OU mon since the second generation. With this in mind I find myself drawn to one of the first steps in the CAP process, which is selecting our concept. I personally think a CAP project is a success if we find a way to fulfill the concept to the best of our abilities.

With a focus on concept I am more drawn to shift my focus away from current viability. Since through the generations competitive trends will make certain mons ebb and flow in terms of viability. Meaning that if we looked at every currently nonviable mon, and tried to fix them we'd never stop having to update mons as something would always end up out of favor. However, if we concentrate on fulfilling a unique concept, a currently nonviable mon may find some time to shine whenever its niche is needed. This mindset will obviously lead to some mons being used much more than others, but personally I think it's the best approach to continue building mons several generations in.

Also with regards to nerfs and buffs being complements of each other I have to disagree. The recent nerfs were done to balance the metagame since mons like Libra were completely morphing the meta around their existence. At the same time a buff only serves to shake up an already stable meta unnecessarily. I think if a mon were failing to fulfill its concept then a discussion could be had, but if a mon simply isn't as good as a few other options it's hard to justify going back in and trying to force a mon to work in the current meta in my eyes.

Overall I think the CAP community does a good job trying to make all the mons work, but as trends change and new mons are added and old mons removed I think we need to be able to step back and accept that it's okay some mons aren't amazing right now. That doesn't mean they wont be in the future, for all we know with the removal of mons like Chansey, Landorus-T, Magearna, and Greninja some CAPs who did not favor to well in the 7th generation could have time to shine very soon.

Also I'll just point out that judging the success of a mon by how well it fulfills its concept is completely personal. I'm not saying that's how everyone should look at our creations, but it's how I've come to view our finished products. Since I don't recall if there is a formal process to evaluate whether or not a project was a success, I thought I'd just give some insight on how I view things.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Thanks for the thorough response! That all makes a lot of sense. One thing that came to mind, though:

I totally agree with you that fulfillment of concept is the most important measure of success. That said, I believe that a capmon being unviable somewhat undermines the idea that its concept has been fulfilled. In my opinion, executing the concept such that the result is relevant in the meta is a requirement for entirely fulfilling it. Granted, nearly all the mons were relevant at the time they were made, so that's more of a side thought.

Regardless, buffing old CAP mons can be viewed as an opportunity to fulfill an abandoned concept in a drastically different meta. It'd be like a mini project without the design and flavor stages, making it relatively low-cost to execute. Personally, I find concept implementation more interesting than flavor, so having those condensed opportunities for discussion is compelling.

One compromise option is to identify which (if any) concepts are worth revitalizing instead of primarily considering the viability of the Pokemon itself. Narrowing the scope to only especially interesting projects brings the required effort down to, "Eh, might as well try it," territory, imo, though I understand the counterarguments.
 

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