jas61292
used substitute
During CAP 5, I believe that the new structure of the Topic Leader + Topic Leadership Team worked very well. However, there were a few instances where issues that we had not addressed prior to CAP 5 came up, most notable of these being the fact that we had no actual rules on what powers the TL had when it came to non-slating stages like Stat Limits. This was already talked about a bit over in the CAP 5 PRC Reflection thread, so rather than restate everything, I'll try and quote the important bits:
Some of the ideas that have been suggested for these stages are, for the Movepool Discussions, allowing or disallowing a group of similar moves or allowing or disallowing a certain number of individual moves, for Stat Limits, adding or subtracting up to a certain amount from one (or more) or the stat limits, and for Movepool limits, increasing or decreasing the limit by up to a certain amount. Each of these ideas has some merit, but, of course, none have been fleshed out enough to be implemented. What we want to do is discuss these, and decide what is the best way to give the TL the power that they need at each stage to make sure things run smoothly.
As a final note before we start discussing this, while I fully expect that most discussion should be on those 4 steps marked with the question marks, if you think that one of the other stages needs to be urgently addressed, then feel free to do so. Making sure we have all the abilities of the TL set is important, so don't hesitate to mention something if you think there is a problem elsewhere.
...one thing I have definitely been wanting to address is the powers of the Topic Leader in non-slating stages. During CAP5, we had no rules whatsoever as to what the TL was or was not allowed to do. While, thanks to the great group of people that made up the TLT, this never translated into a real problem, I definitely got the feeling that if we weren't always on the same page, this could cause severe complications, especially within the project leadership. So, as such, I would like to see if we can formalize what exact powers the TL should have during these steps.
For reference, the steps to which I am referring are Stat Limits, Movepool Discussions (as far as allowed moves), and Movepool Limits. Now, while we never really formalized anything, I do remember having a discussion with DougJustDoug, Korski, and a few others early on in the CAP process about Movepool Discussions:
[02/15/13 | 15:19] [02/15/13 | 15:19] <DougJustDoug> Well, all CAPs get Quiver Dance. It's in the rules somewhere.
[02/15/13 | 15:20] <jas61292> No. Never again. Not on my watch.
[02/15/13 | 15:23] <DougJustDoug> jas has a "-1" TL usage earmarked for QD!
[02/15/13 | 15:24] <jas61292> Well, actually, how will that work with movepools? What ability does the TL actually have to influence allowed and disallowed moves?
[02/15/13 | 15:24] <jas61292> I know we have the +1/-1 for slates, but allowed moves is not a slate
[02/15/13 | 15:25] <PureQuestion> You can ban specific moves, can't you?
[02/15/13 | 15:25] <DougJustDoug> I don't know. But surely the TL needs to be able to do the equivalent of "+1/-1" for those steps.
[02/15/13 | 15:25] <DougJustDoug> It only makes sense.
[02/15/13 | 15:25] <DougJustDoug> Just not sure what the mechanics should be.
[02/15/13 | 15:26] <jas61292> I agree. Its the extent that I am not really sure of. We don't want the TL to just have unlimited +1/-1 power, but you need more that a single move to have any actual effect.
[02/15/13 | 15:27] <DougJustDoug> I agree Jas. we should probably start talking about now, well in advance of the step.
[02/15/13 | 15:27] <DougJustDoug> Who is the Movepool leader?
[02/15/13 | 15:27] <Korski> cape
[02/15/13 | 15:27] <jas61292> ^^
[02/15/13 | 15:30] <DougJustDoug> I'm thinking the +1/-1 could apply to a "category" of moves, with the stipulation that the category can't be too broad (and the mods could be the arbiters of what is considered "too broad" or not.
[02/15/13 | 15:31] <jas61292> That might work. Like that could apply to a certain type of coverage move, or a certain group of boosters or something.
[02/15/13 | 15:32] <DougJustDoug> So "all physical moves" is obviously too broad. But "offensive Fighting moves" wouldn't be to broad, ofr example. "Reliable recovery moves" is another example of reasonable category.
[02/15/13 | 15:32] <Korski> actually you know what
[02/15/13 | 15:33] <Korski> ASB has a pretty decent list of move categories
[02/15/13 | 15:33] <jas61292> Yeah, that seems reasonable. It could get a bit tricky in non damaging stuff where a lot of moves seem to stand on their own.
[02/15/13 | 15:33] <jas61292> But I'm not sure if there is a more reasonable way to do it
[02/15/13 | 15:34] <Korski> the ASB attack substitution groupings might work for this
[02/15/13 | 15:35] <jas61292> lol, maybe
[02/15/13 | 15:35] <Korski> "paralysis-inducing moves"
[02/15/13 | 15:35] <Korski> "damaging ground-type moves"
[02/15/13 | 15:35] <Korski> "sleep-inducing moves"
[02/15/13 | 15:35] <Korski> stuff like that
[02/15/13 | 15:35] <jas61292> The tricky stuff is with things like Taunt or Encore which are not really similar enough to other things to fit in a group
[02/15/13 | 15:36] <Dracoyoshi8> Move Selection Disruption
[02/15/13 | 15:36] <reachzero> yeah
[02/15/13 | 15:36] <Dracoyoshi8> includes taunt, encore, disable, heal block
[02/15/13 | 15:36] <reachzero> Taunt/Encore/Torment
[02/15/13 | 15:36] <Dracoyoshi8> etc
[02/15/13 | 15:36] <Dracoyoshi8> imprison
[02/15/13 | 15:36] <Korski> eh
[02/15/13 | 15:37] <Korski> those are all pretty different moves
[02/15/13 | 15:37] <Dracoyoshi8> but the same concept
[02/15/13 | 15:37] <Dracoyoshi8> limit what attacks your opponent can use
[02/15/13 | 15:37] <Korski> i could see a scenario where the TL would have to outlaw taunt on his own but not torment
[02/15/13 | 15:38] <Dracoyoshi8> that is also true
[02/15/13 | 15:38] <Korski> *his/her own
[02/15/13 | 15:38] <DougJustDoug> yeah, I'd think if you said "No Taunt/Encore/similar" then that would be fine. We know that is a general category. And if someone asks "what about Torment?" or whatever, then the TL can give their interpretation. If the section leader contests it, go to the mods for a ruling.
[02/15/13 | 15:38] <jas61292> Well, I was less talking about that specific group of things, and more the general case of individual moves that are unique enough to merite individual attention, but as such, constitute such a small portion of the movepool that a decision on the individual move may be inconsequential if that is the only thing allowed.
While I think we might want to codify this a bit more, I definitely believe this could be a good basis for a system that would allow the TL some control over what moves are allowed without allowing the power to stretch any farther than in any of the actual slating stages.
For this thread, I would like to do exactly what Doug said above. Here is a list of all the competitive steps and the powers that the TL currently posses at those steps:We definitely should establish clearer standards for how the Topic Leader can exercise +1/-1 power in each competitive step. The general concept is sound, but almost every competitive step has special circumstances that makes it unclear how to effectively implement +1/-1 within the spirit of the policy. I think we should make a separate PR thread and hammer this out. In the PR OP, just list every competitive step, and propose how +1/-1 will work for that step. Then we can discuss the merits of each and refine a specific set of guidelines.
- Concept Submissions - Slating
- Concept Assessment - Deciding Consensus
- Typing Discussion - +1/-1/Veto
- Threats Discussion - Deciding Consensus
- Primary Ability Discussion - +1/-1/Veto
- Stat Limits Discussion - ???
- Stat Spread Submissions - +1/-1/Veto
- Secondary Ability Discussion - +1/-1/Veto
- Counters Discussion - Deciding Consensus
- Attacking Moves Discussion - ???
- Non-Attacking Moves Discussion - ???
- Movepool Limits Discussion - ???
- Movepool Submissions - +1/-1/Veto
Some of the ideas that have been suggested for these stages are, for the Movepool Discussions, allowing or disallowing a group of similar moves or allowing or disallowing a certain number of individual moves, for Stat Limits, adding or subtracting up to a certain amount from one (or more) or the stat limits, and for Movepool limits, increasing or decreasing the limit by up to a certain amount. Each of these ideas has some merit, but, of course, none have been fleshed out enough to be implemented. What we want to do is discuss these, and decide what is the best way to give the TL the power that they need at each stage to make sure things run smoothly.
As a final note before we start discussing this, while I fully expect that most discussion should be on those 4 steps marked with the question marks, if you think that one of the other stages needs to be urgently addressed, then feel free to do so. Making sure we have all the abilities of the TL set is important, so don't hesitate to mention something if you think there is a problem elsewhere.