The Future of STABmons: You Decided Option 2

So if I'm hearing this right, we want to think of this in terms of expanding the playerbase/advertising/being more friendly/whatever you want to call it, while not being too set up crazy.

Don't want a move banlist, can you imagine explaining that to a newcomer? Or maybe a newcomer tries to make a team on their own, repeatedly getting their team rejected because of one move, and eventually giving up?

No normal clause. Half the time, normals aren't even the problem. Aegislash and scizor still sweep with shift gear, but now stuff like tail glow yanmega can safely emerge. Why? No more fakespeed. The meta becomes even more set up crazy, and we're right back to where we started, except with a pointless clause.

As for Option #1, it's definitely an option to consider. A lack of set up moves would theoretically create a much more balanced metagame, but let's not look too far into that yet. I don't see any glaring problems with this, except that stabmons will feel less fun and be far less attractive for newcomers.

I support Option #2 the most, it solves all our problems, paves the way for an entirely new and fresh metagame. With this option, there's nothing to lose, everything to gain. It's not too hard to understand, it's still inviting for newcomers, and should be fun as well. If anything, this would definitely help control the seemingly endless bans that STABmons is being forced to do.
 
So if I'm hearing this right, we want to think of this in terms of expanding the playerbase/advertising/being more friendly/whatever you want to call it, while not being too set up crazy.

Don't want a move banlist, can you imagine explaining that to a newcomer? Or maybe a newcomer tries to make a team on their own, repeatedly getting their team rejected because of one move, and eventually giving up?

No normal clause. Half the time, normals aren't even the problem. Aegislash and scizor still sweep with shift gear, but now stuff like tail glow yanmega can safely emerge. Why? No more fakespeed. The meta becomes even more set up crazy, and we're right back to where we started, except with a pointless clause.

As for Option #1, it's definitely an option to consider. A lack of set up moves would theoretically create a much more balanced metagame, but let's not look too far into that yet. I don't see any glaring problems with this, except that stabmons will feel less fun and be far less attractive for newcomers.

I support Option #2 the most, it solves all our problems, paves the way for an entirely new and fresh metagame. With this option, there's nothing to lose, everything to gain. It's not too hard to understand, it's still inviting for newcomers, and should be fun as well. If anything, this would definitely help control the seemingly endless bans that STABmons is being forced to do.
Seconding this, I now only support option two and not normal clause
 
Don't want a move banlist, can you imagine explaining that to a newcomer?
I fail to see how this is any different than AAA's ability banlist. "These [abilities/moves] keep making Pokemon broken, so we banned them except on things that get them normally."
Or maybe a newcomer tries to make a team on their own, repeatedly getting their team rejected because of one move, and eventually giving up?
All of PS!'s teambuilding error messages I've received have stated what exactly is illegal. If a similar thing is implemented for a banned move list, anyone trying repeatedly to push an illegal team through probably can't read.
I support Option #2 the most, it solves all our problems
No it doesn't. There are things that already have all the [busted setup/powerful moves] they need and will be just as overpowering under this clause -- Unfixable and Jernmax elaborated upon this upthread. And further, we can safely anticipate that this will be the case for future generations too -- Gamefreak will create powerful Pokemon with good movepools, and they won't need to nab both a setup and attacking move to be overcentralizing, and they'll fuck up the tier.
paves the way for an entirely new and fresh metagame.
Kinda. Yes, obviously, lots of these things will get less powerful if they can't start doing shit like dropping +2 Pixilate Boombursts after a turn of setup, and a few of them might even be non-broken enough to be unbanned, but I'm not confident that this will change enough about the tier being so heavily focused on setup -- see above. It would be an improvement, but I think we can do better.
It's not too hard to understand, it's still inviting for newcomers,
It's not too hard in its own right, no -- anyone smart enough to do well in the tier anyways will be able to power through it, IMO -- but to be inviting for newcomers...? It's a bit on the complex side for that. I can imagine it seeming kind of arbitrary to someone who's not familiar with the tier.

On a more general point, I think I missed the memo that clarified how important it is that STABmons gives you access to literally every move of your typing, how it's so integral to the concept that there not be any bans beyond what's absolutely necessary. I'm not sure how cutting off a single-digit number of moves that cause problems manages to go contrary to the very concept, but a more roundabout way of limiting moves that still restricts move usage leaves it intact. Maybe I've just not been around long enough to get attached to the way things are right now, but we're kind of making a new tier anyways, I don't get why we can't update the concept to something more stable and balanced.
 
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EV

Banned deucer.
No. We are in no rush but at the end of OMPL we'll reconvene on this. I'm probably adding a few people to the council as well but I haven't decided on how we will decide which route to go, whether that is a public vote, a req vote, or some combination of council members plus influential non-council players. I'll keep this thread updated as we move along.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
If you want the opinion of someone who could be considered a novice to STABmons, I think both options are clear and well-thought through, and while they undoubtedly raise the entry barrier a little, I don't think it's at any great degree such that newcomers would be intimidated. I was tutored by Insanelegend as part of the OMs tutoring program a while ago, and while I enjoyed learning the new metagame, it was kinda overwhelming with all the incredible setup options and FakeSpeed being literally everywhere so I think this is a great move for the tier. I don't expect to be part of any decision because I think a poll is really inappropriate for this, and instead a vote should be done with a hand picked group of players who can both be vouched for in terms of their experience in STABmons and in their integrity to vote for which option they truly believe is best, without any input of community bias.

I look forward to seeing how this pans out o.o
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Bumping this now that OMPL is over, and we now have no reason to further delay making a decision.

It seems a majority of this group favors option #2, mostly because it is the least invasive of the 3 presented options. Normal Clause could very well make things worse, and option #1 is a bit overboard and really only restricts setup, meaning we have very few cleaners/sweepers in general and promoting stacking powerful threats with the lack of setup. Option #2 is by far the best option, to me, since it keeps all of our diversity, doesn't invade too much in the tier matters, and makes the tier a lot easier to handle.

The other big question that needs to be discussed is resetting our banlist, absolutely back to square one or picking what to unban. This is up for a lot of debate, but I would rather set to square one. People need to remember we are creating a new metagame, and while x mon may haven't had a viable check before, it may have one in the newer metagame, where the way teams are built and the mons used will be completely different. It may get lost in the shuffle; this won't be the same as stabmons before. New threats might arise as broken, while old ones may be much more manageable (hi sylveon). As soon as we form a metagame, we can immediately start suspecting obviously broken threats. I know what you're saying, Mega Aero didn't have any setup moves, but what if scarf mons like keldeo become very common again, and what if some viable aero hard checks/counters pop up? We don't know things like this and there is absolutely no reason to ban them based on a different metagame.

Having several tours, or even a temporary ladder, would probably be the best thing for us to do before we make a decision. This isn't something we need to rush, and this will definitely change the metagame forever, so its in all of our best interests to make this work.
 
Bumping this now that OMPL is over, and we now have no reason to further delay making a decision.

It seems a majority of this group favors option #2, mostly because it is the least invasive of the 3 presented options. Normal Clause could very well make things worse, and option #1 is a bit overboard and really only restricts setup, meaning we have very few cleaners/sweepers in general and promoting stacking powerful threats with the lack of setup. Option #2 is by far the best option, to me, since it keeps all of our diversity, doesn't invade too much in the tier matters, and makes the tier a lot easier to handle.

The other big question that needs to be discussed is resetting our banlist, absolutely back to square one or picking what to unban. This is up for a lot of debate, but I would rather set to square one. People need to remember we are creating a new metagame, and while x mon may haven't had a viable check before, it may have one in the newer metagame, where the way teams are built and the mons used will be completely different. It may get lost in the shuffle; this won't be the same as stabmons before. New threats might arise as broken, while old ones may be much more manageable (hi sylveon). As soon as we form a metagame, we can immediately start suspecting obviously broken threats. I know what you're saying, Mega Aero didn't have any setup moves, but what if scarf mons like keldeo become very common again, and what if some viable aero hard checks/counters pop up? We don't know things like this and there is absolutely no reason to ban them based on a different metagame.

Having several tours, or even a temporary ladder, would probably be the best thing for us to do before we make a decision. This isn't something we need to rush, and this will definitely change the metagame forever, so its in all of our best interests to make this work.
Personally i would perfer not to 100% reset the banlist. I would prefer to keep the meta as it is, and reintroduce each pokemon individually. Or not at all, in the case of Mega Aerodactyl and some others. If the bans are entirely reset, the meta would take weeks to reset and it would be difficult to gauge power level for a long time. If the community disagrees, then the council should at least look into quickbanning some of the more ridiculous threats, such as Mega Metagross and Aerodactyl. Although i do hope to persuade the community to reintroduce Pokemon individually, and not just because i want to avoid ANOTHER Diggersby suspect.

While i agree with what xjownage has said for the most part, I disagree with a few things. As i mentioned before the meta will be highly unstable for some time, so it is unlikely we will be able suspect right away. Second, everything on the list was banned for multiple reasons, Scarf Keldeo seeing more usage isn't going to keep Mega Aerodactly from tearing through almost every non Steel type. And third i'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make by saying option 1 "promotes stacking powerful threats." Isn't that the whole idea of offense? I agree with you, Option 2 is better, but this seems like faulty reasoning.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
What I meant is that option 1 discourages setup and not having to check as many boosted threats encourages the usage of wallbreakers and fast, powerful attackers, which won't make this metagame very balanced playstyle wise.
 
I think we should simply reset to the current OU banlist and move on from there. Of course, we can have a number of quick bans for the ones that won't be affected by the change in the meta(Keldeo for example) but it would be better if we simply rebooted the bans.
 

Scyther NO Swiping

Washed up former great
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I've already said which option I'm for in this thread, so not going to repeat myself again. However, when it comes to how these changes will effect the metagame in terms of the pokemon who have previously been banned, whenever the change is made, I think we should go back to standard OU banlist and have the council vote whether they should quickban things that would still be broken with the changes (ie Mega bunny, Mega Altaria, ect) and then vote to potentially suspect the other reinstated mons if they weren't quickban worthy, but still might be OP (I don't know much about suspect testing, whether it would be best to start out the new era with a suspect test, or wait a little while).

Also, whatever change is gonna happen, when will it take place, and who is gonna make that decision?
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
So I believe Option 2 is the best Option, as it does not remove unbanworthy moves like Acid Armor or Amnesia from the metagame. It just makes more sense to me.

And if we would go back to the regular OU bans, here would be the possible outcomes from the pre-ban mons with option 2:

: Sylveon must now choose whether or not it would like to setup and destroy teams with Shell Smash, but deal damage with less powerful moves like Hyper Voice and Quick Attack, or decide to use the powerful Boomburst and Espeed, but not have any setup besides CM. It really depends on what your team needs at this point. I believe Sylveon would still be incredibly strong, but would be now more limited with it's options, as all these key elements together made it extremely powerful. Would like to see it unbanned, and see from there as this is just theorymonning.

: Porygon-Z was kinda under the same boat as Sylveon in terms of Shell Smash + extremely powerful Boomburst, although more devastating thanks to Adaptability. So again it's options would be limited, either choosing to be a setup sweeper or a powerful hitter. Although not much would still like to take a hit from a unbosted Adaptability Boomburst or Espeed. This one is kinda more difficult than Sylveon, but would like it to still be unbanned and suspected, to determine it's fate by testing it in battle.

: The reason MegaGross was banned is because of the combination of Shift Gear + Heavy Slam dealing crazy amounts of damage, leaving there to be no switchins. Now it would only be able to have access to one of the two moves, which really hinder its effectiveness. Again, either a setup sweeper, or a heavy hitter. I believe it should be unbanned, due to it not having both options anymore.

: Mega Altaria was kinda like Sylveon on steroids, as it had access to plenty of setup options, and crazy moves like Espeed, Boomburst and Outrage. At the time, it was literally who setup with it first that won the battle. Limiting it with this option kinda neuters it, but it would still be kinda menacng, even after it only be able to choose setup or heavy hitter, as it naturally has a setup move in DD that can pair with Espeed and Boomburst. I have a feeling it may be a little too much, but still would like it to be unbanned and suspected.

: Mega Loppuny now either has Shell Smash or Espeed, that where really the only two moves that made it broken. With SS, it could still be broken, but it still loses priority in a tier where it is omnipresent. It if decides to go with Espeed, it loses the only real setup option besides PuP. I feel it won't be too much to handle, and beleive it should be unbanned, due to it being limited with it's options.

: Arguably the most controversial STABmons ban, tbh I don't feel this change in the meta would affect it that much, as all it really needs is Cosmic Power to be really annoying, and Stored Power was just another factor that made it broken. I think it should be quickbanned, due to it not changing much from this different meta, limiting teambuilding just to find ways to counter it.

: Like MegaBro, not much will change for Keldeo either, as CM comes from it naturally. It would still have ridiculous moves in Water Spout and Origin Pulse, and would be too centralizing if it made a return. Would be best if it where quickbanned from the start.

: Even Mega Aero will still have a fun time in this new meta, as all it really needs is Dragon Ascent and Diamond Storm to be a problem. It would still be crazy good, and centralizing again like the previous two, as it really didn't use status moves. Let it be quickbanned.

: Scratch what I said about MegaBro, this was the most controversial ban of STABmons, as Diggersby was the face of it in gen 6. It was again crazy good because of the good old combo of SS + Espeed and got another great Ground STAB in ORAS in Precipice Blades. Even if it loses SS, it can still use FakeSpeed + Ground STABs to deal with practically the whole meta. It would die however to faster priority users, thanks to it losing SS, but it can still use Agility + SD as a pseudo SS. I think it should be unbanned, but suspected from the start.

: Now that it either has to choose between DD, or getting useful STABs that compliment with it's 170 Atk, I don't think Kyreum-B would be that much of a problem anymore. It would deal crazy amounts of damage with Icicle Crash and Ice Shard, but it only has 95 Spd, and will lose out to faster threats, since it lost DD. I believe it should be unbanned for now.

: If we do decide to follow the OU bans, than it would be banned initaly since it's Ubers, but if we don't then here is my opinion. Greninja was an interesting case, as all it really needed was Dark Void to be a problem. It was already banned in OU, thanks to Protean + its movepool that left no switchins to be found. But in STABmons it even could put foes to sleep, and use more powerful STABs in Origin Pulse and Night Daze. Overall, it just got better compared to it's OU counterpart that got banned, so it too should be quickbanned.

Again this is all thorymonning, but I think gives a general idea on my opinions ;)
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Okay after dragging our feet, we (mainly me) have come up with this plan.

  • The council + selected users from the ladder and community will be given one vote
  • They will post here with their vote bolded and provide a reason why (a sentence or two is fine, but I encourage you to elaborate more if possible)
  • The council will validate the votes and announce the result on the 16th
  • If you are not in the group of voters, you may still post here but DO NOT attempt to vote. You can say what you'd prefer, but don't insinuate you are part of the pool in any way
  • If you can get to 1350 on the ladder I will add you to the pool of voters!
  • The banlist will revert to a fresh OU banlist with handpicked quickbans by the council unless Option 3 wins

===List of Eligible Voters===
Eevee General ellipse insanelegend Kit Kasai Kl4ng Pagoose unfixable Scyther no Swiping Lcass4919 w0rd AdamH121 Sylink Arkeis The Reptile aesf DinaIsha jeran Ghoul King omnisc Pikachuun ggggd DarkeKnight Trade ihhca Joshz

If you own one of these PS accounts let me know ASAP:
RandomGuestUser, Lukkz, thejkbird

===List of Eligible Options===
  1. All Pokemon have access to every move that matches their type, except for setup moves they don't learn naturally
  2. All Pokemon have access to every Attack move or every Status move that matches their type, but not both categories simultaneously
  3. All Pokemon have access to every move that matches their type (No change)
====================
 
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Option two is the least restrictive. I mean, we're starting over, so if a mon is too OP, they'll be banned. It's not like the council wouldn't suspect broken pokemon after the change. Option one just destroys many of the set-up options in the format. Option two breaks some of those comboes, like Shell Smash + Boomburst, Belly Drum + Extreme Speed,Shift Fear + Gear Grind, etc.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Option 2 is my vote. as for my reasoning...i summed most of it out in my first post in the thread, but for those who are too lazy to backtrack:
honestly, option 2 sounds really interesting, solving the main problem, without completely removing it(by "it" i mean setup, and not the problem itself). giving pokemon who are otherwise completely balls deep overkill(metagross) a chance to redeem themselves, although SOME i dont see dropping (diggers still gets SD and aero/keld literally changes nothing and pz gets nasty plot boomburst, heck, it gets ADAPT boomburst off 135 spc attack) it also nerfs scizor, bibarel, and other potential setup spammers without doing so in a unhealthy, Unfair(adding this since normal clause doesn't do shit to nerf other potential broken types like steel and dark and i don't doubt SOMEONE will try to bring it up) and negative way.
 
I vote Option 2. It keeps to the core premise of STABmons -where option 1 simply cuts out a swath of moves entirely, which seems to me to be antithetical to STABmons' premise- while potentially unbreaking some of the most absurd offenders. (eg Sylveon, Porygon-Z, Mega Altaria) There's also an interesting aspect in terms of having a strategic decision to be made for a number of Pokemon -do you want the benefits of Status moves or of attacking moves? Which one do you value more for this Pokemon? That kind of hard decision adds value in its own right.

Option 1 seems to misplace where the problem is, to me, and hurts many Pokemon that are nifty, not broken, via access to setup moves, while leaving the meta alone seems distinctly unhealthy.
 
I encourage everyone to not bandwagon. I'm personally voting for Option Three. This is, in my opinion, the best option to go about because I do not currently feel that the metagame is, to quote, "a metagame where whoever sets up first wins." I'm bad at explaining this, so I'm going to let ellipse do the talking, as he agrees with O3.
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
I just enjoy the meta as it is now, and it is far more diverse, as in more sets to use, then it would be with bans. Tbh the only reason I'm contemplating non option 3, is that option 2 and 1 allow some of my fav stabmons pokes to be unbanned <3. That being said it would allow more mons, but less diverse sets.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I encourage everyone to not bandwagon. I'm personally voting for Option Three. This is, in my opinion, the best option to go about because I do not currently feel that the metagame is, to quote, "a metagame where whoever sets up first wins." I'm bad at explaining this, so I'm going to let ellipse do the talking, as he agrees with O3.
neither do i...that's not why people are voting for option 2. since clearly you still HAVE setup by doing so. its that pokemon with setup either have INSANE power on moves (gear grind, boomburst, whatnot) or, has access to extremespeed, and/or has a LOT of bulk, easily helping pokemon setup multiple times throughout the match. by picking option two, you fix that issue without actually removing it entirely/sweeping it under the rug, and it allows, belly drum, loppuny, kyurem b, meta, and other potential pokemon who are probably not NEARLY as broken without one or the other back into the tier. this option also doesnt affect too many pokemon, landorus therian still can run earthquake, and thundy still can have oblivion wing, all this does, is slightly limit most pokemons options, and limit setup pokemon who are a bit too good, like scizor and whatnot. by limiting diversity on pokemon, you increase the general diversity, as now pokemon otherwise outclassed/heavily scared of setup spammers can have some time in the spotlight, and pokemon have more inclination to pick weather to have more offensive or setup style. maybe you want a more bulky offensive landorus-t? well, oblivion wing will have to do in terms of recovery, but hey, now you get dragon ascent and precipice blades. or maybe you appriciate recovery more? then use roost with eq and knock off, and perhaps even add spikes. it adds slight diversity to what pokemon can run, while not HEAVILY destroying it. which is why i voted for option 2 over 1. because in my opinion i DO feel like setup pokemon have it WAY too easy. when 99% of offensive teams fall to my bibarel, it is time to do something about it. no but seriously though, i don't think anyone here thinks the meta is "a metagame where whoever sets up first wins" or at least, a vast majority of us don't.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
to quote, "a metagame where whoever sets up first wins."
This quote?
Basically, the quicker you are at setting up against your opponent, the better your chances are at winning.
Note I didn't say always. I never meant to give that impression. To help clarify, I will share my thoughts from our council convo about my choice. It's in response to not changing the metagame.

"Ellipse - I actually agree with a lot of what you said. I think if we kept up banning, we'd get to a balanced metagame, albeit a temporary one. However, there are two main points as to why I'm pushing for a change.

1) We'll probably stay in a ban spiral for a long time as new things continue to pop up in the wake of past bans. Even though Diggersby didn't hold Kyurem or Scizor down, we're seeing how good they truly are (or in Kyurem's case, was) [with Diggersby out of the spotlight]. The metagame evolves pretty quickly for how small our playerbase is, so new threats get discovered often. I'm not comfortable banning so frequently tbh. Plus, and this is something I've heard you say in the chat, past bans could actually come back to stabilize the metagame but only after recent bans are in effect, which means a cycle of ban/unban to find balance that can be handled faster and easier.

2) That brings me to point #2. A change to the premise is meant to stabilize the entire metagame from the get-go so we have fewer initial and future bans to deal with. Look at AAA: it hasn't banned since Mamoswine. We, however, have been consistently banning until the break for OMPL. Also, the metagame heavily favors offense. A lot of people have said either option will increase the chances of stall to be just as effective."
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
Honestly, I think I'm going to go with Option 3 - not that I'm against any of the other options, but I am really fond of the current meta. I know that we've been going down a ban spiral recently, which is what (I think) prompted this, but honestly I think we're at the end of that spiral - outside of M-Scizor and maybe Togekiss I don't foresee any bans in the meta - maybe normal Scizor but eh. I don't have much else to say right now because its late where I am at, but that's my vote.
 
I can't vote yet, but I do support option 2. The meta is unfairly biased towards Offense and set up stacking. Limiting the amount of coverage and set up a Pokemon can have gives Stall a fair chance at succeeding in STABmons. For those of you who think the ban spiral ends at Mega Scizor and Togekiss, answer this: did you forsee people clamoring for Darkrai's head? What about Mega Dactyl, Scizor, or even Kyu-b? And as for the "next broken thing" I predict in a few short months, STABmons players will be clamoring for an Azumaril ban. Why Azumaril? Belly Drum/Shell Smash sets are exceptionally difficult to counter or revenge kill. Azumaril has access to both Espeed and Water Shuriken, enabling it to defeat would be RKs like Talonflame. Azumaril's massive Attack stat+ Belly Drum make Azumaril near impossible to counter. Superpower beats would be Steel Counters such as Ferrothorn, leaving mons like Venusaur-Mega, Amoonguss, and other niche mons as counters. Even if you don't think Azumaril is broken, you might see things differently in a few months. Which brings me to my point: the STABmons metagame can he hellishly unpredictable when it wants to, and taking action is better then guessing at where the ban spiral might end.
 

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