Announcement Stuck On You - Sticky Web Suspect Test

[Coconut]

Stuck on you, been a fool too long
​

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Once again, we begin to look at Sticky Web. For the past generations of Little Cup, Sticky Web proved too powerful a presence in the metagame to be healthy, forcing teams into running narrow and often sub-optimal options to be safe in the matchup. The current iteration of the archetype is reminiscent of the problems we've had with the archetype in the past: web teams exploit the variety of spin blockers and scant distribution of defog in LC to make removal of their trademark hazard near impossible for many teams. The introduction of Terastillization has introduced another boon to the archetype—the ability, to some degree, to pick and choose its checks and counters. Fast Flying-types like Wingull were usually nigh unwinnable matchups for webs in previous generations, but defensive Terastillization allows offensive Pokemon like Crabrawler, who would normally be forced out by Flying-types to tank normally solid options and KO back with coverage moves. To overcome the danger of losing any web check to the many techs that web teams can choose between, teams seeking to be perfectly safe against webs are forced to run multiple Pokemon that pose problems for the archetype.

Sticky Web teams are not untouchable, though. Even if the spinner or defogger found on nearly every team is successfully blocked, web teams cannot simply collect a free win. They still have to contend with bulky stops to their sweepers that don't care about the speed drop along with fast Flying-types that are able to offensively pressure web teams freely thanks to their immunity to the hazard. These options allow teams a fighting chance against web teams and has prevented them from dominating usage stats or win rates in tournaments, though this does not necessarily preclude the archetype from being unhealthy. If using those checks to webs gives teams a serious disadvantage against standard teams, then teams must choose between beating webs and standard in the builder. This often results in a rock-paper-scissors matchup dynamic that both cuts down on in-game skill and stifles creativity in the team builder. The question that voters will be answering is this: do web teams warp the metagame and create matchup problems to an extent that make them banworthy? Metagames where Sticky Web teams are balanced have existed in the past, where the options to deal with the archetype were widespread and viable enough to avoid significant warping of the metagame. This is somewhat of a sliding scale: at times webs have been fairly obscure and certainly not banworthy (Wingull meta in SM or late Vullaby in SS), and at others they have been a borderline case (a majority of XY and ORAS). Where the line should be drawn is subjective, and the purpose of this suspect.

special thanks to tazz for the writeup

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 76 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 76 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 80. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
76	50
76.2	49
76.4	48
76.6	47
76.8	46
77	45
77.2	44
77.4	43
77.6	42
77.8	41
78	40
78.2	39
78.4	38
78.6	37
78.8	36
79	35
79.2	34
79.4	33
79.6	32
79.8	31
80	30

For this suspect test, we will be using the regular SV LC ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with "KRF" to qualify. When you have reached the requirements, click here to post your proof. Sticky Web will be legal on the ladder until the suspect is over. The suspect period will end on Sunday, July 9th at 10:00 PM EST.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one-liners or uninformed posts.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process.
3. Be respectful.

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.

Guess I'm on my way...​

 

[Hacker]

i think i have made up my mind about this suspect and i will be voting ban

right now there are three viable team structures
-webs
-grassy seed shroodle
-shellder numel

oh and theres one more i guess but it still manages to lose to all 3 of the above
-balance teams that are supposed to be "good" into those structures (they arent but lol)

i think that banning webs is a step in the right direction because it will make the tier less matchup fishy seeing as grassy seed shroodle and shellder numel can play into each other while banning webs should also give teams a lot more breathing room as webs will completely dismantle normal bulky offense/balance type teams

i might as well talk about what "beats" webs;
pawniard on matchup is pretty good into webs you would think, since it has defiant but pawniard is super ridiculously easy to prep for, drifloon wisps it, crabrawler is a mainstay on webs, and honestly pawniard just does not or if the webs user is playing optimally will not get an oppurtunity to even do much more than maybe take 50% off of a pokemon

wingull is similar to pawniard for me vs webs where yes it has a good matchup on paper vs webs but it is also ridiculously easy to just prep for. tera electric crab beats it and it doesnt get immediate kos on anything else

24 hp naive drifloon, the balloon does beat surskit 1v1 but its not a 1v1, the webs user does not have to lead surskit if they see a drifloon and even then drifloon is a one time solution to your entire team losing their speed control as it will only be able to remove once reliably bc of it being at the crowded 17 speed tier

grassy seed shroodle is pretty similar to drifloon but i would say it is a little bit better into webs, its still only a one check for you're speed control so i think it is far from reliable at beating webs tho

you could also like put a mix of all of these pokemon together to have a good webs matchup but then you will struggle into quite literally any other team archetype

so yea i do think webs are broken and are part of the reason why the tier is in the current state is as much of a matchup fish as it is right now. super easy ban for me

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

Please let sticky web die, its just too good.

Its got way too good abusers, as Crabrawler is stupidly hard to deal with under webs because anything that could otherwise outspeed and OHKO now underspeeds it. That mon was already really strong as is, and giving it that much speed control was terrible obnoxious.

Pawniard was good at it too, with it wanting to run tera ghost normally to avoid getting hit by fighting type moves. Its not as good, but it can really spiral out of control.

Voltorb-Hisui is also notable for being fast on baseline and basically impossible to outspeed after webs are up. Also wingull and wattrel counterplay still fold to it.

Theres more of them and I'm sure others can include them, but also grimer-a can be run on webs which is funny because its stupidly hard to switch into.

What else makes webs terrible to face? How good the spinblockers are and lack of good removal options.

Theres quite a few solid ghosts you can run for spinblocking, those being

Drifloon because it can punish the spinners very hard with only access to acrobatics and will-o-wisp. Unburden Oran Berry sets can also sweep if you use tera flying acrobatics, meaning you have to be quite careful around it.

Greavard due to fluffy giving it a great defensive backbone, ability to use roar to phase out enemy pokemon, coverage options such as ice fang and stomping tantrum, and being really hard to kill if its running rest.

Sinistea , even though im not a believer in it, some have definitely used it to great success due to weak armor turning it into a sweeper and having access to nasty plot and stored power

and finally Zorua-Hisui whose great typing and access to nasty plot and stab tera blast before and after tera make it a really fantastic sweeper that also blocks rapid spin.

Also you can run a tera ghost and just deny the spin anyway lol

The spinners that people want to run are

Bramblin which you can also use as a spinblocker on webs but has access to spin, spikes and healing with strength sap.

Toedscool , who has fallen out of a favor due to its defensive profile being lackluster in a metagame with Grookey and Grimer-a around

and Quaxly , which had access to roost, rapid spin and moxie to be a defensive pokemon that could sweep lategame. Its not good currently due to dying to the grass and electric types around.

Also the only defogger is floon because everything else that has it sucks in the metagame, with the next best options being rowlet and swablu. Swablu is firmly UU and was at one point RU, while rowlet is B in UU.

Our removal options suck, the ghosts are too plentiful and strong, and the already great Pokemon that can sweep on webs are already really strong.

As such, please ban the webs.

 

[Colin]

I got reqs, but I'm not sure what I'll vote. I'm in the opinion that many of our meta problems are due to Tera making everything that's fast or has setup in particular harder to check and/or counter, in addition to our limited Pokedex meaning fewer versatile options to beat the power crept offense that Tera buffed. Defensive Tera is a useful tool, and there is a lot of skill in knowing how and when to Tera, but when it makes building so much more restrictive in how thoroughly you need to be able to beat everything (both pre Tera, and in case it Teras to beat your answer/other speed control), it becomes too much in my eyes. Webs is one of the prime beneficiaries of Tera, but its certainly not the only type of offense that has become too strong thanks to it.

Since Tera is staying for the near future at least, I'll go back to talking about Webs itself. To me, there are two main options for dealing with it: use 24 HP Naive Drifloon, or prep for Webs with the expectation that they will go up and stay up (some Surskit sets can still win the lead even vs that Floon spread). The spinners are hard to run, and can be spin blocked fairly easily at least in the short term. If Webs do go up, teams can either use a bunch of Pokemon that trade well in spite of Webs, HO threats that boost speed like Shroodle or Shellder, counter with your own Webs/Tspike/hazard stack + enough bulk to go even/outlast webs, or run speed control unaffected by Webs. This isn't an unreasonably low amount of options, but its still quite restricting, especially as none of these options immediately wins you that mu, or even makes it even sometimes. The utility in webs allowing bulky setup sweepers or breakers to muscle past bulky stops without having to save health/tera for most speed control options is a huge utility that will apply in almost all mus.

Another point I want to touch on, is that Webs are quite versatile in the builder, with many viable options and move sets to choose from. Surskit for example, can run both Eviolite and Sash with a variety of spreads and some set variety, and has a niche Scarf set that with modest OHKOes Naive Drifloon. The abusers can be any of Crabrawler, Voltorb-H, Sandile, Pawniard, Zorua-H, Stunky, etc, all of which meaningfully threaten some form(s) of Web counter play, and most of which would be good at trading even outside of Webs. Webs doesn't yet have an agreed standard team, which makes prepping for it more than just changing a few sets/Teras to tech a threat. Beyond the need for Surskit + at least 1 Spin blocker, there are a lot of directions you can go when using Webs, and that makes prepping for it very difficult, and most counter play not truly reliable.

 

[Coconut]

Hi all,

The LC council has decided to lower the requirements for voting from a minimum of 78 GXE to a minimum of 76 GXE, scaling up from the number of games played. Please see the updated charts for the new requirement to vote in this suspect.

 

[Baloochi]

While we have very little defoggers and rapid spin got a buff. The fact of the matter is that some mons would much rather run a different move . It also promotes the current meta of the flying types like watteral, wingull and drifloon.I can’t talk about webs without mentioning surskit it as the only decent web Mon ( the only other being tarountula and it’s not that good) While lc is known for being fast paced I could see a rise of icy wind for speed drops and thus a lower speed Pokémon might move first. I think there are a few notable differences however

this is in no order

1) icy wind deals damage and lowers speed by 1 and unless there is a ice immunity you are forced to lose speed

2) you can’t not get webbed. While HDB(Heavy Duty Boots) is around giving eviolite up is simply not worth the trade as you lose a large amount of bulk with very little to show for it and if ran KOff shroodle would become a nuisance to no end, along with even if you swap you still receive a stat decrease.

3) Fragility of LC. When most mons die within 2-3 turns spending one to remove hazards is one taken not damaging the opponent. With our best berry being Oran which can help for rare unburden sets but otherwise stable recovery is rare and rarely applicable to play.If berry juice was in s/v this meatagame would shake out differently.

4) limited Dex. While home updated the Dex majority of the lc eligible mons were forced out( H. Sneasel, Qwillfish, Basculin, H. Growlithe) and the limited Dex of s/v to threaten surskit into not using webs is very little along with the counters to it being weak in webs.

5) abilities can be a problem. Pawn with defiant makes it so if you want to Defog it gets a free swords dance. The threat of giving it a free stat boost where it can sweep teams especially since it becomes hard to outspeed if webs are present.