Policy Review State of the CAP Metagame

ginganinja

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The State of the CAP Metagame

O.k, so personally I think this thread is super important to discuss, however the title / topic is raelly vague, so I guess I’ll have to start breaking it down.

You ask anyone who played the CAP meta back in Gen 4, and people use words like awesome, challenging, fun, and so on. I did a quick poll on IRC before writing this, and there is a general acceptance that the CAP metagame within Gen 4 was simply outstanding, and that it was enjoyed by many.

Fast forward to Generation Six, and there are several issues that people point out. For instance, inactivity on the ladder is a huge issue, with few people caring to play, and the ones that do are pretty much spamming metronome teams and so on. Some time back, chaos asked me (why, I have no idea), about the CAP ladder, and what could be done to improve it. I admit, I had next to no ideas at the time, but since then it’s been something at the back of my mind, wondering what we can do.

Personally, I think the heart of the issue is that we don’t actually know what we want to do with the CAP metagame. We tell every single new user that posts within our CAP process that we don’t build our CAPs for the CAP metagame…and yet currently that’s pretty much the only place they get use. Currently, the CAP meta feels like a dumping ground for any old CAP (“old” here meaning anything before the CAP we are currently playtesting). Currently, CAP doesn’t care about the CAP metagame, and if we don’t really give a damn about the metagame, then why should newer players bother to learn and play the metagame?

It’s entirely possible I might be slightly harsh here, but I think it should be agreed that something should be changed. Currently, one of the most publicly, easily accessible things about CAP is that it has a ladder on pokemon showdown, which gets a huge number of visitors daily. Yet, the ladder itself is garbage, and it hardly does CAP any favours at getting in any new blood.

Anyway, these issues have been around for quite a while now, and there have been no shortage of solutions. Some people wonder if we should be “fixing” the CAP meta somehow (I’m aware that revising CAPs didn’t work very well last time), if we should be adding incentives, if it needs greater publicity – there really do seem to be a lot of ideas.

I think I might be rambling a little, and I don’t really want to make this a tl;dr OP, so I’ll wrap this up pretty quickly. Firstly, I really want the initial posts of this thread answering what we actually want the CAP metagame to be. Do we still want to leave it alone, do we want to intercede, or do we want something else entirely. When, (if?) we can decide what we want the CAP Metagame to be, only then do I really want possible solutions to be brought forward and discussed. I would prefer to keep discussion about how the current CAP metagame is to a minimum because most people agree that its bad, and would rather we find a solid goal as to what we want from the CAP metagame, and then start building towards it.
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
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Don't have a lot of time to post, but the CAP Metagame should definitely become a "thing" for us to support. It's gaining a good following on Pokemon Showdown, and it's one of the unique facets of this project that can draw in more users. Of course there are downsides to adding support (e.g. having confusion about what we make our CAPs for), but the metagame has enough of a following that the advantages outweigh the confusion. We can always do our best to have a division through a subforum and specific CAP Metagame leadership. But in my opinion, yes, let's get the ball rolling on this.
 

bugmaniacbob

Was fun while it lasted
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Mm.

As far back as I can remember, the CAP metagame and the Project at large seemed to go hand-in-hand. The CAP metagame was, as we all know, originally what the first few CAPs were designed for, and its relevance only seemed to taper off once the big CAP meta players, such as Plus, Fuzznip, and Umbreon Dan, who were organising tournaments and posting warstories and the like, left or disappeared, and while other members have filled their roles in the Project itself, there hasn't really been any similar passing on of duties vis-a-vis giving the CAP metagame a public presence. I don't think there really has been any prolonged companionship between the CAP metagame and the Project since Rising_Dusk left. Part of the reason for the ingrained nature of the CAP metagame of the past was, I imagine, something to do with its isolated nature - Doug's Shoddy server was the hub of activity, and the people who went there, went there for CAP (or else for Little Cup, hence the great kinship between our two communities that used to exist). On the current Showdown server, the CAP metagame is just another ladder and staff members do not necessarily have anything to do with CAP. Nor is it ever likely to be the case again, as the hub of activity (if you can call it that) has shifted, or shifted more, to IRC and #cap. I can't speak for the gentlemen who are currently keeping the CAP metagame going, but my impression is that while they are strong in spirit they are somewhat weak in numbers and overall public opinion.

So, in short, we never really have had any "purpose" for the CAP metagame, as far as I can tell. It's just there.

With that in mind:

Personally, I think the heart of the issue is that we don’t actually know what we want to do with the CAP metagame. We tell every single new user that posts within our CAP process that we don’t build our CAPs for the CAP metagame…and yet currently that’s pretty much the only place they get use. Currently, the CAP meta feels like a dumping ground for any old CAP (“old” here meaning anything before the CAP we are currently playtesting). Currently, CAP doesn’t care about the CAP metagame, and if we don’t really give a damn about the metagame, then why should newer players bother to learn and play the metagame?
Currently, the CAP meta pretty much is a dumping ground, under the assumption that it's fun to play with all the silly mons we've come up with over the years. Leaving aside the question of whether or not we actually want to change this (I imagine we'll have to if we want to encourage increased participation and a competitive ladder environment), we should perhaps at this juncture make clear the difference between supporting the CAP metagame (as in resources and forum space) and balancing the CAP metagame, the latter of which would involve its active modification to make it more palatable. Both support and balancing can be done independently of the other, and I personally find the former to be far less disagreeable than the latter, which throws up rather a lot of problems that I presume can be discussed at length at some later hour.

Firstly, I really want the initial posts of this thread answering what we actually want the CAP metagame to be. Do we still want to leave it alone, do we want to intercede, or do we want something else entirely.
My opinions are, as follows:
  • The CAP metagame should function as a showcase for the CAPs currently created. In keeping with this point, the potential for banning certain CAPs from the metagame itself is not an option, and I consider this point to be non-negotiable. Every CAP should be able to be used (naturally, to a greater or lesser degree of efficacy) in whatever CAP metagame results from this. As an extension, it is naturally a boon if the CAPs in question do not appear overpowered or outstanding in battle conditions, but I am unsure of how far this line of thought can be extended given the possible... implications.
  • The CAP metagame should be appropriate for the face of CAP in a public forum - in this case, Pokemon Showdown. To this end, it is natural that if a newcomer sees it as a disorganised mess, they will extend the same judgement to the CAP project at large. Thus, it is in our best interests to ensure that the CAP metagame at least appears to be given consideration on the forums and on the site, in the form of resources and the like. The only CAP metagame resources currently on-site are horribly outdated. More to the point, it should appear as legitimate, in that it has forum presence, tournament presence, and most importantly, competitive integrity. A horribly unbalanced metagame is, after all, no fun for anyone.
  • In line with the above, resources should be provided to ease access into the CAP metagame from OU. What form or shape these resources take is up for debate, naturally. I think the easiest way to sum up what I would like to see here is as follows: The CAP metagame should be one that we would not be embarassed to see appear in an official tournament. That's not to say we should be pitching this idea to the TDs (not possible on cartridge etc), but that we are perfectly aware of the gulf between the current CAP metagame and ostensibly similarly placed metagames like Little Cup and NU. Naturally this relies on individuals being willing to take on the task of providing these resources and recruiting others to do the same. Personally I'm not a CAP metagame expert and pretty ambivalent as to what happens to it, but if we are going to make an effort to resurrect it then let's not resort to half-measures.
As a final note:

(I’m aware that revising CAPs didn’t work very well last time)
As a note, "the last time" we revised CAPs was pretty much overwhelmingly agreed to be not only successful but also necessary - this being the fixes to movepools to remove bloating that occurred prior to Voodoom. Most of the attempts prior to that were reverted, true, but this was for a variety of reasons - even if most of these fell solidly into the camp of "backfiring spectacularly". I think it's more than possible to fairly "update" CAPs if we keep to certain rules - whether or not we should do so, of course, is another matter entirely.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
As a note, "the last time" we revised CAPs was pretty much overwhelmingly agreed to be not only successful but also necessary - this being the fixes to movepools to remove bloating that occurred prior to Voodoom. Most of the attempts prior to that were reverted, true, but this was for a variety of reasons - even if most of these fell solidly into the camp of "backfiring spectacularly". I think it's more than possible to fairly "update" CAPs if we keep to certain rules - whether or not we should do so, of course, is another matter entirely.
wasn't the last time we revised caps literally just undoing our previous revisions (except for krilowatt)

It seems like we're all unanimous that we want the CAP metagame to come back to life because it's a) fun and b) the best advertisement for CAP. The idea of creating caps for the CAP metagame has been discussed in the past and is not going to happen. Leaving the CAP metagame as it is will just make it fester more. so that really only leaves one option: support, play, and discuss it, without interfering. maybe at some point once we actually know the meta we can look into bans, though as bmb said—no cap bans. in fact im not a fan of bans because it raises the barrier of entry lol.

anyways since we're all in agreement i hope ginga doesnt mind if i discuss solutions? i don't think the big problem with the CAP metagame is that it's horribly unbalanced—the CAP meta circa colossoil was ridiculously unbalanced because DDOak and Revenankh were broken as all hell and it was still the best fucking thing—the problem is just a lack of support. this isn't an easy problem to fix. We can't just shit some resources on it every six months and go "maybe it'll stick this time." smogon vgc proves this. (admittedly our situations are a little bit different because when people want to learn VGC they go to nuggetbridge, but if people want to learn CAP they have to come to us).

A big part of the problem is simple showdown ladder degradation that has hit every tier. Even if every person remotely interested in the CAP metagame who was reading this thread were to go out and use Campfire KABOOM-tier teams, it still wouldn't make a fucking dent in the overall pool of ladder noobs spamming six caps. In the CAP meta's glory days, the ladder was actually a serious place where people legitimately played to improve. With that gone and frankly in my opinion unrecoverable (unless smogon shifts back to a downloadable client??) it's going to be much harder to reinvigorate the competitive scene of the CAP metagame. Still, I can think of no better option than this: anyone who is legitimately interested in seeing this metagame return to form should RIGHT NOW TODAY make a team, play the metagame, and discuss the metagame. Actual grassroots activity is the only way to prop this thing back up into life, and as the co-leader of doubles i can tell you how powerful actual grassroots activity can be. but if you actually care hard enough to see the cap metagame come back, you will play it. otherwise, it will die.

to start we could set up a thread right here in the cap forum for just "general cap metagame discussion" a la OMs, perhaps request to host a tourney too
 

jas61292

used substitute
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For the most part I agree with a lot of what has already been said. If used properly, the CAP metagame can be a great public face for CAP in general, drawing in users, and just being generally fun. The biggest problems are of course the lack of quality, and the lack of players. Of course, as mentioned in the OP, we really should look at what we want to be doing with the metagame before we decide how to get there. Personally, I think what we want is simply for the metagame to grow and get better, and, in the process I would like to see if we can better merge the forum scene, the IRC scene and the Pokemon Showdown scene. As things are right now, there is a small group of dedicated players on PS, but they are mostly isolated from the rest of CAP. If we can get the metagame to grow, then I think we can fix that, and, by fixing it, we can help the meta grow even more.

Basically, in summary, I think what we want from the metagame is for it to be a quality, self-supporting entity, but one that is deeply linked to the CAP project. We don't want it to be isolated from CAP, but if it is not self-supporting (ie something people would want to do other than to use the CAP mons every once in a while), it will not be good enough to provide any benefit to the project.

to start we could set up a thread right here in the cap forum for just "general cap metagame discussion" a la OMs, perhaps request to host a tourney too
Really, I think the biggest key is to make sure that the CAP metagame has some presence on the forums. As of right now it really doesn't, and I think that is one of the biggest problems. I won't go too much into the implementation part yet, until we decide on more of a consensus of what we want, however, unlike what Pwnemon is suggesting here, I don't really think a general metagame discussion thread is going to be a good start. We have had those before, and they always get a few posts and die. I do think we need forum discussion, but I think that if we are heavily invested in it, then we should seriously think about giving it its own subforum with its own leadership, and more than just a single, unfocused thread. With that said, I do agree with Pwnemon that people who are interested in helping the meta should get right in and start playing. While we will need more than that, this is probably the best way to start. But I'll save further discussion of implementation until later.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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jas said:
... in the process I would like to see if we can better merge the forum scene, the IRC scene and the Pokemon Showdown scene. As things are right now, there is a small group of dedicated players on PS, but they are mostly isolated from the rest of CAP.
This division is something that I find very apparent. As it stands now, it seems like jas is one of the few users who is active across PS, IRC, and the CAP forums. Essentially, the CAP room on PS feels like they are, to some degree, being ignored by the rest of CAP. Whether or not this feeling is justified or not, it can still be seen as something that should be addressed. Some members of the PS room have even started up a Weebly site/forum in order to try to generate articles and advice, and to overall just get more reference material out there. Personally, it seems that a sub forum here on Smogon would be a more efficient way of organizing such information, as it would be more easily exposed and would likely get more traffic and (hopefully) generate more interest.

Yes, the CAP meta evolves every 4-5ish months when a new CAPmon enters the ring. However, I still am under the assumption that having articles for the CAP meta would be more of a benefit than a tedious cycle of updating. Though I'll admit much time hasn't passed yet, Volkraken has had a minimal impact upon the meta. Just because a new mon enters the scene does it mean that all(most) previously legitimate sets and strategies suddenly become obsolete. Likewise, when GameFreak releases a new legendary, the OU meta is able to adapt and retain the majority of its structure. So, if we were to make CAP meta-minded articles, I think the updates needed every few months will befarless severe than what others have made it seem to be. If we want to build up the meta, which we recognize to have few players currently, I think making articles and giving potential new players the knowledge to make informed team choices would be a good thing.

Regarding actual (structural) changes to the meta, I am personally not in favor of "updating" CAPmons. There are a number of people from the PS room who disagree with me on this, but I don't see the need to make direct changes to previously created CAPmons. The CAPmons were all created for a specific time and purpose, and messing with this seems to me something that wouldn't do justice to the original polls, processes, etc.

However, I do not believe that the CAP metagame should not be disallowed to have any changes, per se. I am in support of CAP mega evolutions. Though this particular subject seems it will likely come up as a separate topic this PRC (thus I will save the majority of my opinions for the subject for later) I will say for now that there seems to be genuine interest in the PS room for some CAP megas, and some people have mulled over potential scenarios in which CAP megas could be used to somewhat help out the meta specifically; i.e. making a CAP mega designed for the CAP meta and not purely for OU. I know that the actual CAP process is very much limited to OU (as it should be), but as things regarding CAP megas have yet to be decided, it seems this possibility might as well be discussed.

I'm also somewhat in support of the CAP metagame having a slightly more controlled/tailored ban list. Multiple CAP players have suggested that some things in uber, such as Genesect, are not all too broken in the CAP meta. After talking to PS users in the CAP room about this multiple times, a number of people seem to want to have some level of control of what is and isn't allowed in CAP. Generally, the unanimous concensus is that CAPmons should never be banned (which I perfectly agree with), but that the banlists and rulesets of other things could be slightly tweaked, or at least voted upon. That said, I have my reserves on some of these aspects, as if we change too far away from OU or standard meta rules, then it might be harder to attract a larger, consistent player base.

So, in summary, I'm in support of a CAP meta subforum with potential articles, etc. Updating such articles ever 4-5 months doesn't seem that implausible IMO. I don't want to directly change CAPmons, but I'm okay with potentially having the ability for CAP players to change banlists, and I am in favor of some CAP megas. Furthermore, the possibility of having some of the CAP megas designed with the CAP meta in mind is something that CAP players are interested in.
 

ginganinja

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O.k so just prefacing this post that I'm quite happy with solutions being discussed now, and am pleased many of you already got started.

I think bmb illustrated a really crucial point that there are two roads we can look at, and that we should consider doing both of them. At a functional level, everyone is correct that CAP really lacks a strong forum presence, and that fixing this would benefit cap as a whole, but I also believe that actually taking a look at balancing the CAP meta is an important step (more on this later).

Your first step needs to be getting more people aware of CAP, and the CAP room. Tourneys, warstories, featured battles, even something like a youtube channel(?) all increase the awareness of CAP, which leads to more traffic both on the forums and the server, which means a larger playerbase. Heck, 50% of the reason I first visited cap waaaay back in Gen 4 was because I read a flawless warstory about some tourney where players picked one pokemon from one tier, (including CAP).

Your second step would potentially needing to educate people on how the cap metagame actually works. If we want people to stop running 6 CAPs, then we need to tell them, heck, I never would have had a positive time on the CAP ladder if it wasn't Birkal who told me to aim for a maximum of 3 CAPs per team (as a rough guideline). There is nothing on how to teambuild a cap team, nothing on the threats, common movesets, common combinations, and heck, I'm sure there are a few other things I'm missing. I think the threat list is in progress (or is it something else), but I am sure metagame information needs to be updated for Generation 6 at some point. Of course, you need good players to update this, which links back into Pwnemons point that our expert players should be giving it a go again. As it stands, the CAP metagame is not easy to jump into. Any newer player wouldn't have a clue whats good, whats bad and so on. You can argue that OU / UU or whatever have similar problems for a newer player, but every single other tier has a wealth of up to date information to assist newer players, and as it stands, CAP either doesn't have this, or they are not updated, or they are not in a publically / easily accessible way of viewing.

This ties in nicely with this last point, which is making sure the metagame is fun to play. You cannot tell me that a metagame that sees a pokemon get more usage than Kyogre got in Generation 5 is healthy. Sure, I am aware there are a number of people that enjoy that sort of thing, but in general, its not an enjoyable metagame to play in, which links in to to my first step. If you get an enjoyable meta, then you get more people interested in picking it up > increasing experience > experience filters down to articles etc and (ideally), around and around it goes. Its entirely possible that I am looking at this through rose tinted glasses but I really think looking at balancing the CAP meta should be something really looked at as an option. I agree that banning CAPs from the ladder really is silly, but wouldn't be above balancing certain CAPs.

Obviously that opens a ton of worms so I won't go much further into detail, but I guess I agree with previous CAP posters above that we potentially need to unleash a few steps very quickly, in order to start fixing the current issues the metagame has.
 

DetroitLolcat

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Ginga hit the nail on the head in that the CAP Metagame is not easy to get into. Remember when CAP Analyses had a dedicated CAP metagame section in them? They don't anymore and nothing took their place. The only place in the forum where there's even a shred of up-to-date CAP metagame discussion is the CAP Metagame Viability Rankings thread. If someone wants to get into OU or UU they can visit C&C, the forum, the RMT section, etc. None of those resources exist in CAP. I believe a CAP Metagame subforum would go a long way in fixing this: we could organize mini-tournaments, post warstories and RMTs, and discuss metagame trends there. We could even have analyses (formal or informal) that would explain how to use various Pokemon (CAPs and regular Pokemon) in the CAP meta.

I don't think "getting people aware of CAP" is as important as rebranding it. Exposure isn't the problem, CAP has a permanent ladder and chat room on Showdown, a reasonably active IRC channel, and a forum with three subforums. People know we exist and hundreds of people participate in our projects. I'm sure plenty of them would stick around and play the CAP meta if it had the resources and playing incentives other tiers have. Allowing speculative CAP meta threads about an ongoing CAP during the process would help in my opinion. In short, the CAP meta has the same resources as an official metagame but struggles to get the same popularity as some Other Metagames. We have the tools to fix that.

When it comes to CAP megas and potential balancing mechanisms, I think we should leave those alone in this thread. We'll likely discuss CAP Mega Evolution (for non-official purposes) later in this PR cycle, but I don't think now's the best time to discuss ways to balance the CAP meta because we don't know if it's unbalanced. Right now the CAP meta isn't fun to play because nobody plays it, not the other way around. We can judge if the CAP meta has balance problems once we have enough consistent ladder players for the usage stats to accurately reflect what's good and what's not. We don't have a tournament scene where the highest-level players can adequately showcase what's good and what's not, and we have 6-CAP teams running amok and tilting usage stats in favor of the CAPs.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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I'll just pop in briefly to share some of the material that the CAP meta players have already come up with over the last few months.

https://www.youtube.com/user/GymLeaderMbreezy/videos We have a Youtube Channel known as "CAP Corner." However, it suffers from not being 100% dedicated to CAP. If there's at all a way to get a Smogon Official CAP channel, then I think it would be a great idea. After talking to various PS CAP players, it seems that getting an official channel is a well supported idea.

http://pastebin.com/yr26wLtB This is Vryheid's team building guide for CAP, revamped for gen 6, though we're still experimenting with Volkraken and won't be able to update him in for a bit, I'd assume. I'm sure Vry has a lot of other guides, too, but this one stands out to me.

http://pscaproom.weebly.com/ Here is the start to the Weebly site, with a focus on both the CAP room itself on PS and the CAP meta. Currently, Vryheid has provided a Tomohawk article/analysis, whereas I have made one for Cawmodore. Overall, this project currently suffers from a few things... We don't have a standardized format for articles (or any form of quality checking), and we don't have a proper way to reserve articles for people interested in writing them. Multiple people have volunteered to write for this project, but sadly most have not followed through. I don't blame any individuals for this, but rather the lack of organization. Pokemon Showdown user Flarz is the person who started this site (and is the one who started getting involvement for the Youtube channel listed above as well, I think), but he is generally busy with other aspects of PS as well as life in general. Having project leaders for this sort of thing with both metagame experience and at least some level of free time would be preferred.

So, in general, the CAP room has tried creating avenues to "advertise" to new players (Youtube) and to educate them as they come in (articles, etc.). However, attempts so far have suffered due to lack of official paths to take.
 
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bugmaniacbob

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To address one particular point

Allowing speculative CAP meta threads about an ongoing CAP during the process would help in my opinion.
I disagree entirely. A lot of time and energy has been spent in the past in making certain that people are aware that the CAP metagame has no bearing on the Project itself under creation and muddying the water in this regard does not quite serve to help that purpose. Personally I don't consider it even being a reasonable option to suggest that discussion of this nature should be allowed at least on the forums given the potential to influence voters. Having said that, if the CAP metagame does indeed get its own separate subforum then this sort of thing will likely be inevitable.

On the subject of how exactly we want to proceed from here, assuming that everyone is agreed upon the point that we do want to increase our support for the CAP metagame and increase our ties to its playerbase, it seems that the set of steps we would want to take would be something akin to the following:

1. Open a fourth subforum for the CAP metagame
2. Fill it with all the resources we can lay our hands on, however unpolished
3. Encourage individuals with experience in the CAP metagame to increase forum activity
4. Make a new selection of opportunities, including tournaments / discussion threads / forum activities etc. within the new forum
5. Use of social media to advertise "rebooting" or similar of CAP metagame (we'll want to make sure the place looks presentable before this, of course)

This should, for the most part, be self-explanatory. Some people may argue that we might want to make sure we have resources built up by the time we open the forums rather than the other way around, but I don't think anyone here has yet argued against these things occurring in some order in the future.

Now, with all that said, there are a few things that need to be run concurrently with the above that aren't quite so easily dealt with. For example, the problem of how or whether we want to "update" or "revise" (or some other similar word) the CAPs, and where precisely this slots into the process for dealing with the CAP metagame. Other things include how we're going to arrange online resources, the role of the CAP site in accommodating information, the structure of metagame leadership (if separate from the forum leadership), what goes in the forum first, whether or not we intend to profit from the CAP metagame's existence through the study of how the metagame changes with the addition of different CAPs... the list goes on.

In my opinion, the best thing we can do now is outline what we agree on to start with and then draw up a plan of what we're going to discuss next, as in terms of philosophy we all seem to be on more or less the same page. We all agree we should support the CAP metagame, in some respect, on top of what we are doing at present. We all agree that the CAP metagame needs increased forum presence and I'll take a leap and say we're all open to the idea of a fourth subforum for metagame discussion. We all agree that increasing the volume of resources available is not only a good thing but also necessary for the health of the metagame, but we don't yet know who's going to write them or where we're going to put them. So, if anybody disagrees with the principle of a fourth subforum, an increase in resources, or even the idea of the Project and the metagame having a closer integration, then please speak up now before we put them to one side and move on. The rest of this post will treat these three points as given.

The following, then, are the most important points in need of discussion from here on out:
  • Whether or not updates or revisions to existing CAPs should take place and how this should take place; on a related note, when we want this to occur, where the information for the hypothetical updated CAPs should be housed on-site, and the process for any potential updating of CAP Pokemon in the future
  • The leadership structure for the metagame, and what powers they will have and what can be achieved with the level of power they are given
  • Where analyses and information guides can be housed on-site
The first of these is likely most appropriate for a new thread, so I won't discuss it here (this also applies to discussion of "fixing the metagame", most of which falls under the same umbrella). Most of these could give me enough material to write a single post on, but I'll restrict myself to some general notes on each.

For the second, it seems unreasonable to expect the CAP moderation team to be responsible for the upkeep of the CAP metagame as well; while it is certainly possible that one or more of the moderators will be a perfectly good CAP battler, elevating them to a leadership role because of their forum leadership role seems to me to be unhelpful, and possibly draining, where their energies might be better applied elsewhere. This is simply in the vein of the expectation that the CAP moderation team can provide a leadership role; naturally, one or more of them may be a part of the CAP metagame leadership as well. However, this leadership should be subject to the dictates of the PRC - the PRC should be the ultimate body in deciding policy, at the very least until such time as it is demonstrated that this does not work in some respect, with the metagame leadership in the role of carrying out the policies decided upon, with regard to metagame upkeep and the like. In addition, it would be helpful if people could come forward and specify their strengths and the work they are prepared to do. For example, making Youtube videos or tutoring. Or something similar.

For the third, this is one topic that speaks volumes to me, as I am very keen on the drive to update and maintain the CAP site. My view on this is as an extension to the CAP documentation process - that we merge the current playtest analyses with the playtest documentation pages, and in their place provide dedicated CAP metagame analyses. Furthermore, the CAP site should provide a home for articles detailing how to play the CAP metagame and the like. Speaking directly to the player base for a moment, if you know the CAP metagame, try to get one of your articles into the Smog. Since its inception, the Smog has received a miserable three articles about the CAP metagame. That is the same number of articles that have been published on CAP ASB of all things.

------

As a final clarification, I think it is worth our while to make certain we have a healthy metagame before relaunching it, or at the very least ensure that our metagame does not undergo drastic changes after the creation of the forum itself.
 

Vryheid

fudge jelly
The State of the Meta

The CAP meta during most of Gen 6 has been mostly heavily centered around bulky offense, with strong utility Pokemon like Cyclohm, Mollux, Tomohawk, and Colossoil preventing hyperoffense from effortlessly wiping out entire teams. You can't just set up once and expect an easy sweep with these Pokemon around, as big threats like Charizard, Talonflame, and Gyarados can get walled pretty easily or at the very least shut down after a Haze. The extra bulk that these CAP Pokemon bring to the table means that easy KOs are far and few between, and using a hard hitting sweeper like Aurumoth requires some intelligent preparation to actually make use of. Stall and Hyperoffense are equally viable as balance but are generally considered deviations from the norm rather than a typical playstyle. The metagame is arguably more forgiving than OU in the short term simply because it is easier for many CAP Pokemon to tank incoming hits, but requires more strategic planning in the long term because taking down CAP cores can require a fair amount of prediction and constant offensive pressure. If I had to make a comparison, I've found that a good CAP match is closer to a fencing match than the out and out slugfests that currently dominate OU.

The CAP Playerbase

In general, there are two types of players who frequent the CAP meta- those who play simply because they like using the CAPmons, and people who believe the CAP meta is fun to play and stands on its own as one of the best metas on the site. In the latter group, most top CAP players agree that there are five traits which the CAP meta does well at (or at least attempts to) in a way which the OU meta is arguably less successful:

1. Everything is counterable, not everything can be countered at once
2. Every threat can be handled through a mixture of utility and teamwork rather than hard checks
3. Team matchups are much less important than long term prediction and strategic planning when it comes to winning
4. Balanced offense is the most consistent strategy, but stall and hyperoffense are also viable
5. CAPmons add a level of versatility to the game that allow similar team lineups to be played in radically different ways

I'd say that the "pinnacle" of the current Gen 6 CAP playerbase happened around January/February of 2014, when the ladder was still fairly competitive and new players were constantly being educated on new team lineups and strategies that were considered most effective. The community is still fairly active for its small size, with players such as myself, Animus, gday, Jiggly, Heal, and others making appearances there practically daily, but people simply do not care about ladder ranks that much anymore. New players therefore are not getting exposure to CAP teams that work, which contributes to a growing lack of sustained interest in the tier outside of this highly experienced group. I will try to explain part of why I believe this to be the case in the next few sections.

Development of the Meta

Early Gen 6 CAP matches tended to have many strategies Genesect was popular because it blew up the genies and was a good pressure tool to deal with Aurumoth, severely limiting its ability to easily sweep. Offesive Bulky fighting types like Revenankh could tank his hits from Genesect and set up easily in the face of many Pokemon which checked it, such as Heatran and Chansey. Tomohawk gradually became more popular because it could deal with these threats easily as well as actually stand up to hard hitting sweepers like Mega Kang and Mega Lucario that the OU tier was not equipped to handle. Megas were not super popular in the early days of the meta, though Mega Venusaur was always a common threat. Fairy types were not incredibly popular because of the constant use of Steel-types like Ferrothorn, Aegislash, and Kitsunoh, but they did see occasional use on bulkier teams.

The introduction of Cawmodore changed the metagame significantly. Running a Cawmodore counter became a huge priority for many players because of how easily it could singlehandedly win matches with little prediction. Early tests showed that a simple two Pokemon team of Memento Tomohawk and Cawmodore could consistently beat players not prepared to deal with it. Cyclohm became much more popular for this reason, as it could comfortably tank everything Cawmodore did and KO it with Flamethrower. It also countered Talonflame extremely well, which in turn became more popular after the loss of Genesect forced the use of other reliable checks to Aurumoth and Syclant. TomoClohm became a standard for excellence in the tier, pretty much marking the point when the average CAP team was considered unquestionably superior than any comparable OU team. It had the perfect mix of bulk, utility, and offense to act as "glue" for practically any team, encouraging variety and careful tweaking of what Pokemon were effective in the tier. This core leaned the meta towards bulky offense, which in turn encouraged further use of CAPmons because this is precisely what they excelled most at.

The Balance Core in particular is a team archetype I helped create with the input from several other major players. I found that it tended to do particularly well against the vast majority of teams, having some difficulty breaking through stall but performing strongly against most other styles when played correctly. I strongly recommended this to new players because it is extremely effective against standard OU teams and isn't particularly difficult for new players to learn. The general lineup looks something like this- Cyclohm, Tomohawk, a specially bulky pivot, a mixed wallbreaker, a revenge killer, and a utility mon. I even wrote a guide about it several months back that I submitted to Jas and Birkal even though it never got published here. The mix wasn't so much a "jack of all trades" approach as a bag of tricks for any given situation, and for most of December/January variations of this playstyle were heavily dominant on the ladder. Here's a recent match I had with a balance core in action. The match goes on a long time, but you can see how well each team member supports each other and how difficult it is for opposing sweepers to simply overwhelm the team with continual attacks.

Eventual anti-balance sets such as Kyurem-B and the infamous Mixed Landorus set proved themselves to be heavily problematic for standard balance cores and led to a brief surge of hyperoffense as the primary strategy on the ladder, which in turn led to stall teams being custom tailored to shut down these "anti meta" strategies handily. Stall has completely dominated the recent meta, as once an opponent's team/moveset is basically figured out a good stall core is nearly impossible to break through with any degree of consistency. The easily abusable Arghonaut/Mollux/Tomohawk stall sets and a slow decline of bulky offense has much to do with this shift.

In recent times a growing frustration with this situation has lead towards a general antipathy towards teambuilding in general. The teams you see now on the ladder are nowhere NEAR the best we've come up with, and it's depressing to see outsiders from IRC or other chats come in and wonder why we're using mediocre threats like Entei or Mandibuzz on the ladder when they're either outclassed or pathetically easy for competent CAP teams to deal with. People simply don't care about teambuilding as much as they used to any more, and builds are based more on "whatever the hell we feel like" rather than what seriously pushes the limits of what CAPmons can do. The only time you're going to be facing these highly influential and finely tuned teams is if you specifically ask certain players for a private match against them, and even then they probably would have been even better if they had been further improved based on recent improvements on our understanding of the metagame.

Improving the Meta

We know from experience and consensus from the majority of CAP players that several Pokemon in particular have had an enormously detrimental impact to the balance and enjoyment of the meta, stifling improved play in favor of gimmicky strats and "rock/paper/scissors" matchups. While not completely ruining the effectiveness of balance teams, they allow for easy KOs based off of simple "gut instinct" predictions rather than intelligent strategy and team synergy. This is exactly the opposite of what most players found originally attractive about the meta and a major factor in reducing sustained interest in teambuilding and the tier.

A good standard for whether or not an offensive threat is "balanced" is that ANY Pokemon which can singlehandedly demolish both Tomohawk and Cyclohm should have some sort of highly reliable counter that is both viable and common in the CAP tier. These counters do not have to have recovery moves or even be CAPmons, but they need to be common enough that any player can easily use them. Some Pokemon in particular that can be considered reasonably well balanced:
-Mega Mawile- Countered by Mollux
-Azumarill- Countered by Mollux
-Mega Gardevoir- Countered by Heatran, Kitsunoh, Aegislash
-Aegislash- Countered by Mollux, Arghonaut
-Cloyster- Countered by Arghonaut
-Mega Pinsir- Countered by Skarmory (this is a bit more questionable, as Skarm is generally just a mediocre Tomohawk)
-Syclant- Countered by Arghonaut
-Aurumoth- Countered by Volkraken, Heatran, Aegislash, Clefable, and Aegislash

This means that mindlessly throwing out one of these Pokemon and blindly picking an attack, hoping for the right switchin, is not always going to be an option. You actually have to WORK for your sweeps in the CAP tier, weakening these switchins first and preparing hazards to the point where a sweeper can easily finish the job. Yet two Pokemon in particular fail this test entirely:
-Landorus
-Kyurem-B

Both have too much power and too much coverage to reliably switch into, and sit at a speed tier which is MUCH more dangerous in CAP than it is in OU. Simply using faster, hard hitting checks like Greninja or Latios is not sufficient, because those checks are too easily shut down by balance cores which are in turn shut down by Landorus/Kyurem-B. This is not balance, this is the "rock/paper/scissors" matchup we are trying to avoid that forces matches to depend more on team composition than strategy. Dealing with these two Pokemon forces players to use inefficient strategies and Pokemon much in the same way that being forced to use Pokemon like Haze Quagsire to deal with Baton Pass in OU was considered gimmicky and damaging to the meta. I believe the meta would vastly improve if these two Pokemon were banned as soon as possible- or at least quickly suspected- because they are extremely frustrating to deal with and have been nothing but detrimental to improving the teambuilding and competency of play available on the ladder.

Stall in recent months has turned out to have several strategies which are nearly as problematic as hyperoffense, being being able to shut down offensive threats that even the best OU stall cores have difficulty dealing with. Haze/Reflect Tomohawk is a particularly nasty source of this, being able to neutralize and beat practically every physical sweeper in the game that cannot hit it with a super-effective STAB move. Bulky sweepers like Reuniclus and Revenankh can gradually punch through stall, but when they can be effortlessly Hazed and Roared out with Arghonaut or set up on with some gamebreaking, status immune sweeper then you're basically forced to run gimmicky stallbreakers like Gengar which are either too weak to balance cores or get demolished by hyperoffense. The metagame is once again becomes less about strategy and more about team matchups, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid. I do not believe that these Pokemon are nearly as problematic as Kyurem/Lando but they do deserve to get discussed and possibly suspect tested at the very least:
-Haze on Tomohawk (the specific move, not the Pokemon)
-Roar on Arghonaut (shuts down bulky setup sweepers too easily)
-Clefable (the Cosmic Power set in particular is too difficult for the Fighting/Dark centric bulky offense meta to deal with)
-Gothitelle (arguably as bad as Mega Gengar was in OU, as trapping Tomohawk/Mollux/Cyclohm is way too powerful)

Once these Pokemon/strategies are dealt with, we can go back to building a coherent, balanced meta that focuses on CAPmons and educating players on what basic team builds are considered efficient and widely effective for every archetype. With the way the meta is currently headed, this is becoming more of a crapshoot, though the current discussions in the OU forum on suspecting certain heavily problematic Pokemon give me some hope that this may happen eventually regardless.

A final possibility is discussing unbanning certain Pokemon that are considered too powerful for OU but aren't all that unbalanced in the CAP meta. Mega Lucario and Genesect in particular are two Pokemon that I think are much easier to check/counter in CAP than in OU, encouraged greater variety and better quality of teambuilding, and in no way were too powerful for the meta. I believe that this should be last on our priority list, however, as dealing with the above problematic Pokemon is much more important right now.

Improving Player Discussion

There is an enormous amount of community knowledge about what sets work best for each individual CAPmon, and what their specific role is in the Gen 6 meta. Unfortunately, most of it is not written down. Heal has listed a few recent attempts at community outreach, but a general sense that the IRC CAP community treated the CAP meta as little more than an irrelevant sideshow and that the Smogon staff didn't particularly care either meant that most of the highly dedicated CAP players have had little incentive to try to create public content. Players interested in the meta generally have been getting help on an individual basis, being tutored on what works and prepared with teams that tend to work well against a variety of threats. While this worked fine for the members involved, it didn't help players who may have not had the best English speaking ability or simply didn't have the time to find someone to teach them how to play.

Discussions like these are a relatively minor improvement to the initial situation, though creating a subforum for the meta and allowing the players who actually know what it plays like (it isn't hard to find us, try going to the CAP room sometime!) some leeway in deciding what projects get worked on there would give us much more incentive to put in the time and effort to make this kind of content happen. Maybe give a few of us the ability to sticky threads in the subforum, because right now it's annoying not having metagame crucial threads stuck in a place where new players can easily get access to them.

Eventually, I would like to see:
-Updated analysis' for all Gen 6 CAPmons linked to their official articles
-More RMTs/warstories being posted in the board
-Publicly advertised tournaments
-Tutoring sessions put in for players interested in learning how to use these Pokemon
-Guides for basic team archetypes and what kind of cores work well (you don't have to use Tomo/Chlom to be successful, but everyone should at least know how it works)
-An automated message that pops up every time anyone enters the CAP room that links them to information about the meta and to this subforum

Buffing Older CAPmons

Anyone who has had extensive experience in the tier can tell you that CAPmons tend to fall (roughly) into three categories:

Representative of the best of the tier: Tomohawk, Mollux, Colossoil, Cyclohm, Aurumoth, Cawmodore
Needs slight buffs/tweaks: Arghonaut, Kitsunoh, Krilowatt, Necturna, Revenankh, Syclant, Volkraken
Needs large buffs: Fidgit, Malaconda, Pyroak, Voodoom

The bottom four are especially problematic in that they simply have little to no place in the current meta, either due to being outclassed by newer Pokemon or losing out to this gen's power creep. There is a very strong desire among newer players to try out CAPmons based on what looks cool and has a personal interest to them rather than what is technically the strongest available, and I strongly believe that buffing the CAPmons they want to use would go a long way in improving player retention. This is, after all, a metagame dedicated to CAPmons, and we are by NO MEANS required to simply "accept" that some are vastly superior to others. This is not OU, after all. I also believe that through these changes we could also fix some of the external balancing issues in the process. One example of this I brought up earlier in the chat was how giving Kitsunoh access to a hard hitting fire move like Flare Blitz and a slight attack increase would not only increase its viability but allow it to reliably revenge kill Cawmodore, which is currently considered quite frustrating for offensively oriented teams to check. Pokemon like Fidgit may need significant movepool additions to justify their use, but I believe this can be done while keeping in the spirit of the original designs given to us in the CAP process and preserving the original versions of the CAPmons for posterity.

Making These Changes Happen

My suggestion is that we make all of these suggested changes as a general purpose endgoal and then work on all three large scale changes as open ended PRC projects with no fixed timeframe. Some short term metagame improvements on the blatantly broken stuff would be nice, but we definitely want to take our time on any changes to existing CAPmons we make to ensure they're done right and with the approval of the CAP community.
 
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Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Brief summary of ideas I want to float to the PRC and the other Mods:

1. Adding support staff specifically for the CAP Metagame.

The idea here is that moderator duties are shared in the same style as other parts of the site, where we have staff dedicated to C&C for CAP Analysis, staff dedicated to building education about and support for the metagame, etc. The most important aspect of this is that the staff implied here operates specifically on balancing the metagame itself amongst its existing elements, and understands that new CAP projects are separate entities.

It will naturally be the case that a new CAP or a submission might have some underlying elements that might affect the CAP metagame, but as is standard policy these cannot be argued within the CAP project itself. Doesn't stop you from flagging submitters down on IRC or talking about it in #cap - if it wouldn't violate the results of AM / NAM discussion it's fair game IMO.

2. Avoid updates to CAPs whenever possible - but do it through comunity processes.

At issue here is the fact CAPs are creations of their time, and thus in a sense they are "our," as in the community's, products. At the same time, for all of our CAPs except Syclant, Revenankh, and Pyroak we have an actual concept to work off of as extensions of the CAP metagame. Of these, Pyroak is the only one that has gone through several fundamental changes over the years - but most of that is a distant memory to new contributors.

Onto the ones we do have concepts for, Fidgit is the most interesting because the new generations have given us a huge variety of utility moves. Misty Terrain for example is almost pointless on Fairies, since nothing ever uses Dragon attacks on them anyway - but as a Dragon damage reducer + Safeguard on a Pokemon that can threaten Fairies with Poison STAB (and Ground STAB for Klefki/Mega Mawile) it would be a cool experiment. Additionally because Gen 6 also adjusted stats and Fidgit's initial speed tier, 105, was designed with Gen 4's threats in mind, an update to 115 Speed to reflect the proliferation of 110-112 Speeds might be warranted.

The mechanism to make any such changes should be via community drafting of submissions and voting, just as if we were remaking the Pokemon from beyond every stage except for Stats and Movepool, and limiting discussion to moves added after the generation of the CAP's creation. The problem I forsee is something like the problem we have with pre-evolution votes, which is incredibly diminished participation. The other element is that this process lends itself to unlimited revisions rather than just being a "one and done" kind of thing.

The only way we might avoid that is, again, to have a dedicated staff as suggested in (1.) that can keep the mindset of the CAP project in mind when doing any such things. Obviously Fidgit was designed for Gen 4 OU. The problem is that a redesign for Gen 6 OU might not have any impact on Gen 6 CAP, and if we redesigned specifically for Gen 6 CAP we'd be building for a metagame with a very niche understanding. We need to avoid the latter if at all possible.

I think the CAP Metagame has viability as a project unto itself, at issue is avoiding a bleed-over into the purpose of the CAP Project overall.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I am opposed to any sort of update ever as a "solution" to the CAP metagame. The issue at hand is not whether every CAP can function at a high level within our version of OU. It is insane to assume that 20 creations will ever be good enough to all (co-)exist in OU, particularly when all of them except Volkraken so far were made with a completely different metagame in mind. Usage tiers will only have around 50 things in them pretty much by definition. And until things like Chansey or Aegislash or Heatran or Thundurus become bad (hint: not happening) there will not be space for every CAP to shine in the current metagame, nor should that even be our goal. The CAPs as we all know are a process and for all intents and purposes cease to "matter" outside of their own playtest.

I'm not sure what steps could be taken to improve the metagame and the ladder, but revisions to previous CAPs is not the answer.



One thing I have considered however is implementing a council to help balance the all-cap meta. Nothing says the CAP meta must be solely OU + CAPs. Our playtests are the only thing that are central to the project and those will continue to be OU + the CAP we just made forever as far as I'm concerned. But if something like Aegislash is ruining the CAP meta, I don't see why we would need to be tied down to the OU banlist for our ladder that exists purely for fun.
 

DetroitLolcat

Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
I don't believe the CAP meta has a big a balance problem as some earlier posts imply, and I certainly don't think a lack of balance is a reason why the CAP meta isn't seeing more participants. Adding a council or suspect testing could be a good idea in the future, but right now we need the metagame to mature before we can reasonably decide what's broken and what's underperforming. I'd like to echo what srk1214 said about CAP revisions: this is not a metagame for the CAPs, it's a metagame with the CAPs. It's neither reasonable nor desirable to try to make the 19 CAPs fill out spots 1-19 on the usage list, and we shouldn't try to shoehorn the CAPs into the top tier of the CAP metagame if it's clear they don't belong there. The CAP metagame, as I see it, is a place for the CAPs to interact with the OU Pokemon all at once, not for the CAPs to dominate the OU Pokemon.

One problem I have with a council right now is that it might lend itself to CAP revisions, as implementing a council begs the question "what if a CAP is ruining the CAP meta?". I'm firmly opposed to revising the CAPs just to fit them in the CAP metagame when they aren't designed for it. I believe preserving the history of each CAP is important and revisions will simply obfuscate what we made the Pokemon for. For example, if we were to buff Fidgit's Speed by 10, would we change Fidgit's Speed in the CAP Pokedex? How would we explain to someone going through the CAP Process Archive that the CAP you're playing with is different than the CAP we voted for? If we make the version of the CAP playable on Showdown different than the version of the CAP we voted for in the forum, we're losing sight of what we made these CAPs for. If we implement a council or some way of improving the CAP meta, revisions shouldn't be on the table in any circumstance.

Vryheid had some good ideas in his paragraph on Improving Player Discussion:
Vryheid said:
-Updated analysis' for all Gen 6 CAPmons linked to their official articles
-More RMTs/warstories being posted in the board
-Publicly advertised tournaments
-Tutoring sessions put in for players interested in learning how to use these Pokemon
-Guides for basic team archetypes and what kind of cores work well (you don't have to use Tomo/Chlom to be successful, but everyone should at least know how it works)
-An automated message that pops up every time anyone enters the CAP room that links them to information about the meta and to this subforum
Frequent CAP Mini-Tournaments (possibly with a leaderboard), actual analyses to work with, and articles/guides will all go a long way in making the CAP metagame accessible to new players. People know this metagame exists, but they don't know how to get into the metagame. These are the perfect things to put in a CAP metagame subforum.
 

bugmaniacbob

Was fun while it lasted
is an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
We should not be discussing revisions or updates to CAPs in this thread - the whole issue is a deeply complicated one and will I think require another thread, in addition to the numerous ones we've had on the subject previously, because at the moment it is only obfuscating the issue at hand - namely, what we're trying to get out of the CAP metagame and how we're planning to proceed from here. That said, I'll just briefly mention at this moment that all this talk of preserving the history of the CAPs versus building them up to fit the XY CAP metagame is, in my mind, short-sighted - if we are going to ascribe to either philosophy, let us take it unreservedly and stop being hypocritical. If we want to "preserve the history of CAPs" then fine, let's give Krilowatt back Draco Meteor, Kitsunoh back the elemental punches, and get rid of Cyclohm's Fire-type moves and give it back its Ice-type moves. If we want to start moulding the CAP metagame into some fantasy perfect metagame, let's set up measures that allow us to do that. For the record, I don't feel that making all CAPs equally viable is either necessary or desirable and that I feel that the historical documentation pages should give us some way to alleviate the current crippling lack of accessible information on CAP origins. Oh, and the matter of whether or not CAP movepool size should increase with the BW2 tutor moves and TMs is up for debate as well. But this is a debate for another time, naturally.

On a more relevant tack, the question I proposed earlier still stands -

What course of action do we want to take from here, from a philosophical or even a practical standpoint?

We can argue until the cows come home about whether or not the CAP metagame happens to be balanced or not at this present moment, but ultimately this question is going to have a different answer for every person who happens to come across it. So how do we go about resolving this? As far as I can tell, there are only two ways we can approach this - either we try to fudge the existing CAP metagame so that it becomes more "balanced", whatever this happens to entail, before we release it to the masses alongside a hailstorm of guides, discussion threads, tournaments, and the like, or we do it the other way around, and release a boatload of guides and forum projects and discussion in order to establish a community consensus on what needs to change to make the game more enjoyable, if anything, as per the typical Suspect testing process. The former has as much of a chance to make things worse as it does to make things better, and I'm hesitant about the possibility of banning certain non-CAP Pokemon, since in my view the banlist is another barrier to entry for the casual player (as Pwnemon pointed out), and overcomplicating things at the very beginning is thus a bad idea; the latter may very well result in our producing a large number of resources for helping players that become outdated very quickly.

Note that the question here assumes a resolution to the problem of whether or not we want to revise the CAPs. Naturally this is an issue that needs to be worked out before answering this question (well, that's not strictly true, but it would help), but there are other problems more immediately pertinent. For example, who exactly is setting up this arrangement, who is leading the forum projects and has responsibility for member drives, who is writing analyses, who is maintaining analyses, who is indexing and sorting analyses, where we put the analyses when they're done, what exactly merits an analysis and what doesn't, how we go about advertising the new focus and indeed whether or not we want to provide incentives to play - Seats on a council? Perhaps pester someone to expand the requirements for TC, as tennisace was planning on doing?

For my own part, I feel that a middle-ground course is probably the best. Seat a small, unofficial council together, hear grievances, play testing games, if anything is unequivocally broken then ban it and then when we're all moderately satisfied we can pull together some usage guides and other resources and begin pulling more players into the proceedings. I don't think anybody at all is objecting to the idea of tournaments, analyses, articles, RMTs, tutoring, and the like, or at least I assume so from the fact that nobody has voiced any such objection thus far. If such is the case, then can we please make it clear that we agree on this, stick it in the OP, and use it as a jump point for the next item of discussion; specifically, what all of this entails. I propose small skeleton analyses for each of the CAPs with some tips on how to use them in general, plus a low-key threat list, teambuilding guide, and possibly team archetype guide, which should not be a huge deal overall. I also propose that all those CAP players who desire to take an active part in the leadership of the tier or any other necessary role (writer, tourney host, tutor, etc) in its initial stages post here, or ask a friend to post here on their behalf, stating their willingness to do so. Finally, I propose that we organise a system of metagame testing that allows grievances to be aired and pseudo-suspect voting to be arranged where appropriate.

I do not think it reasonable to discuss revisions until these fundamental issues have been cleared up.

EDIT: Discussion between myself and jas on IRC about a couple of things:

Code:
<jas61292> bmb, your post makes a good point at the end. I know that a lot of people are interested in something happening, but it is just as important that we actually know there are people willing to do things. I don't actually know who wants to help with what, just what people want done
*** Deck_Knight [~Deck@synIRC-92710D79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 182 seconds]
<bugmaniacbob> mm
<bugmaniacbob> that is one of the things that worries me about this
<bugmaniacbob> we don't even have people willing to write for the site at the moment
<bugmaniacbob> or rather, able as opposed to willing
<bugmaniacbob> and the grammar checker in me is slightly alarmed by the prospect of having to make sure this stuff is site-worthy
<jas61292> Well, I feel a lot of this stuff doesn't necessarily need to go on site, at least right away, and may be better on the forums, which I think will make more people interested, but I still want to make sure that interest is there. I know I'm willing, but I really have no idea how much others are willing to do
<bugmaniacbob> well, right away would be inadvisable regardless - I doubt that anything we wrote up at the start would be particularly relevant a week later
<jas61292> agreed
<bugmaniacbob> hence my proposal that low-key skeleton analysis/article threads in the forums would probably be best
<bugmaniacbob> at least to begin with
<jas61292> but even outside of writing, as far as running mini-tours, and managing threads and the like, we still need people willing to help
<bugmaniacbob> absolutely
<bugmaniacbob> trying to get a feel for the gross number of people we have on tap at present is, imo, a priority
<jas61292> I'm not so worried about anything to do with balancing or revising or what not. Those seem like the kind of things that will attract people easily. Its more of the grunt work kind of things that concern me
 
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Vryheid

fudge jelly
Since modifying existing CAPs is a huge part of balancing the current meta to make it balanced and versatile, I don't see why it shouldn't at least be mentioned here. The purpose of a the CAP meta is to create a space where CAPs can be used, and it seems obvious to me that making it a space where CAPs can be used effectively is a logical extension of that. If CAPs aren't viable in the CAP meta, then it's turned into nothing but a sloppy, poorly balanced offshoot of OU. I don't think anyone wants that. That being said, I understand this is probably a topic for a different thread, but it should probably be mentioned in the OP if this is the case.

We can argue until the cows come home about whether or not the CAP metagame happens to be balanced or not at this present moment, but ultimately this question is going to have a different answer for every person who happens to come across it.
Please excuse my upcoming hyperbole, but I really disagree with both this statement and any suggestion that we should wait until after a huge host of community content has been made before attempting to balance anything. Making basic balancing decisions for a Pokemon meta isn't exactly rocket science, it's implementing obvious changes to a game environment that obviously needs them. I'd love it if we could get ten people who have been at this meta for several months, let them debate until they have an 80% vote or something on some proposed bans, then throw out the trashmons like we've done every other meta on this site. It wasn't hard to figure out that Deoxys-A or Blaziken was too broken for OU, it didn't require a long community reflection process to get rid of Sneasel from Little Cup, and it should not be THAT complicated to prove that Pokemon like Kyurem-B have screwed up the CAP meta to the point where they're significantly sucking the fun out of playing in it. There is quite literally no way to make a universally decent CAP team right now, all you can do is hope for a decent matchup against 80% of teams and a horribly uphill one against teams that happen to have Cawmodore, Aurumoth, Landorus or something that counters your entire lineup.

A "good" team to me is one that able to consistently beat any opponent if you play better than them, and there's nobody who's even come close to making a team that fits those requirements. I (and several other players) can pick any CAP team being used right now and make a ladder viable counter team that is entirely unbeatable for it just off of basic metagame knowledge alone. So how then are we supposed to create accurate "guides" to the meta, when (in my opinion) there are no good CAP teams on the ladder to begin with? It's a total crapshoot if any of this advice will even work, because the next day people could start counterpicking it and then it's totally useless. Stall cores dominate right now, sure, but that's only because they're slightly less unstable and poorly balanced than the other teams being used, and if people start bringing in offensive Dragon teams or shit like Stallbreaker Tomohawk they wouldn't even have a chance. If people want to play rock-paper-scissors matchups then by all means they should do so, but they're probably going to gravitate towards 1v1 or Monotype where this environment is already established.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Please excuse my upcoming hyperbole, but I really disagree with both this statement and any suggestion that we should wait until after a huge host of community content has been made before attempting to balance anything. Making basic balancing decisions for a Pokemon meta isn't exactly rocket science, it's implementing obvious changes to a game environment that obviously needs them.
we obviously need to wait a little before balancing when you suggested a pokemon with fucking 580 bst and sticky web needs a buff. Frankly, we don't know shit about our metagame yet, and trying to make balancing decisions now would only end up doing hilariously dumb things when we don't even know what's good and what isn't. It'd be like if OU voted to ban genesect less than a week after XY came out.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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Since modifying existing CAPs is a huge part of balancing the current meta to make it balanced and versatile, I don't see why it shouldn't at least be mentioned here. The purpose of a the CAP meta is to create a space where CAPs can be used, and it seems obvious to me that making it a space where CAPs can be used effectively is a logical extension of that. If CAPs aren't viable in the CAP meta, then it's turned into nothing but a sloppy, poorly balanced offshoot of OU. I don't think anyone wants that. That being said, I understand this is probably a topic for a different thread, but it should probably be mentioned in the OP if this is the case.
This is where I have to put the hard breaks on this idea. The entire point of CAP is to make a community creation, and bringing CAPs into the back room for "experts" to balance them for a different meta runs entirely contrary to the culture and principles of the project. There is no possible good that could come from changes to specific CAPs that would be worth it for a metagame that will end up adjusted when the next CAP comes out anyway. Changing one move (or several) on one Pokemon is not apt to be a "huge" part of anything, and a more comprehensive overhaul via community input would adhere to our standards, but still be difficult unless we preserve the final product of the past.

Complex bans look hideous, but they don't violate the parameters of the project. Putting up or down Pokemon currently in the Uber tier back into the metagame because, with 20+ new and different Pokemon the metagame is invariably going to be different, doesn't violate the parameters of the project.

The CAP Metagame is important. The project does need additional competitive players engaging in the discussions. But we can't morph the CAP metagame into something that violates the principles of the project as a whole. Resources are better spent figuring out how to balance what exists instead of making tweaks to specific CAPs or Pokemon.
 

jas61292

used substitute
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This is where I have to put the hard breaks on this idea. The entire point of CAP is to make a community creation, and bringing CAPs into the back room for "experts" to balance them for a different meta runs entirely contrary to the culture and principles of the project. There is no possible good that could come from changes to specific CAPs that would be worth it for a metagame that will end up adjusted when the next CAP comes out anyway. Changing one move (or several) on one Pokemon is not apt to be a "huge" part of anything, and a more comprehensive overhaul via community input would adhere to our standards, but still be difficult unless we preserve the final product of the past.
As much as I personally think that revisions are not needed, and probably are not all that important in the grand scheme of things here, I think this view of them oversimplifies things and fails to acknowledge all the truth of the situation. While the arguments against the necessity or usefulness are fine, I simply think that what you say here makes it sound like an impossible task, when I believe in actuality is would be easy to do while sticking to the principles of the project. After all, if we ever get going on the whole Documenting CAPs thing from the last PRC cycle, keeping track of the final product of the past is inherently part of it.

The real concern to me is, as bmb noted above, that we have mixed policy precedent when it comes to CAP revisions. A lot of people like to say we have policy against it now, since we undid some of the more recent ones, but in actuality, that is not the case. We changed our standards in the past, and revised CAPs to fit them. As everyone knows, this is why Kril doesn't have Draco Meteor any more. So truthfully, revisions, even ones that change the final product of the past perminantly, are indeed a part of CAP, and if we have good reason for them, we should go ahead.

HOWEVER, I do not think we have good reason here. While I don't think it would be a mess or anything, I don't see the benefit. We can balance 18+ Pokemon to make them all high OU without being broken, and nor should we have to. This is a metagame where CAPs should be playable, but that doesn't mean they all have to be good. If a Pokemon's concept doesn't fit in the CAP metagame, oh well. That is not our problem. With that said, if we ever do end up doing something like that CAP Mevo project, then doing something like that with the CAP metagame in mind would be cool. If there is reason to update them outside of simply doing it for the sake of doing it, then I am all for it. But that specifically is a topic for another thread.

Regardless, I think, as others have mentioned, that how we really want to be approaching this as one would any developing metagame. Get it forum space, set up threads and activities, and provide resourses for new players. Once things develop, if we see balance problems we can address them. However, I don't think that is something we can do right now.

I also would like to second what bmb said in his last post (as you can see from the IRC log) regarding individuals who are interested in helping out with the necessary work coming forward and letting us know. Its all well and good for people to want a good metagame, but we need to make sure individuals actually want to help out to make it good, if we are to get anywhere. I know I for one am willing to help with just about anything, but I encourage anyone else who would like to be involved to let us know, so we can be better prepared going into whatever we end up doing.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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jas61292 said:
I know I for one am willing to help with just about anything, but I encourage anyone else who would like to be involved to let us know, so we can be better prepared going into whatever we end up doing.
I am interested in helping out in this sort of work, whether it making rough analyses, guides, or whatnot. I can potentially see that coming up with "experts" on the meta for QCs and the such would be somewhat difficult at this point however... If the metagame is undeveloped, experts likely don't exist to start with.

I might have more to add to some of the topics discussed here later, but for now here's my short post saying that I am definitely interested in helping out with whatever my talents are deemed best suited for. Here's a link to my initial Cawmodore analysis that I made for the Weebly site that I mentioned earlier in this thread; I recognize that errors might exist in this and that it isn't at a stage to be called 100% complete, but I hope it shows my interest in assisting this project. http://pscaproom.weebly.com/cawmodore-article.html
 

nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
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For now, the most important thing is momentum, and hype. Communities live and die by momentum and hype; in this regard, they are much like a pokemon battle. If we want the CAP Metagame to succeed, we've gotta get it hyped, get people hyped for it, get people participating, get people wanting to participate. I'll be honest, the CAP Meta, in spite of all our best efforts, in spite of all our work, can very possibly fail. I'm going to mirror other feelings that have been stated in this thread, and say: if you want the CAP Meta to succeed, go out and get involved now. Don't wait for the outcome of this thread, go ahead and get involved, get things rolling, and help it succeed. The most important thing of all is keeping up the momentum to continue to acquire new users - we can spend all the time in the world sitting on our hands and building a 'perfect' approach to this, but it won't magically bring users. The only thing that can do that is getting people excited and wanting to play the game, and getting involved and showing them that there's a metagame worth getting excited over and action is the best way to go about that.
 

DarkSlay

Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*
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I've said quite a bit on this topic over IRC and on the Showdown! server, so I don't have much to add content-wise. However, this post is going to serve as a "can we please wrap this up" kind of thing, as not only has a lot been said and discussed about this issue (I'm pretty sure a majority of us are in agreement that a CAP Metagame subforum is a good start, and other issues can be addressed along the way through that subforum) but chaos' Smogon Dex is essentially here, and it would be extremely beneficial for the CAP Metagame community to get started on writing analyses for the CAPs/CAP Metagame as soon as possible for potential uploads into the service. This would kill two birds with one stone: jump-starting the community and getting some of the gritty written work out of the way!
 
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DougJustDoug

Knows the great enthusiasms
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I have not posted in this thread, because I have been busy on other stuff in CAP/Smogon/IRL and I have a ton I'd like to say about this topic. Unfortunately, I just don't have time to write the post I'd like to write for this thread, so I'll post a few of the high points and leave it at that.

The reason the CAP Metagame was popular in the 4th gen was because we had an awesome CAP Server community -- not the other way around.
The CAP server got started and the people that moderated/frequented the server were great ambassadors for the CAP project overall. They hung out on the server all the time, they welcomed newcomers to the project, they had fun, they battled others and taught people about these stupid broken fanboy pokemon we were making on the forum. Some CAP server diehards were more likeable/knowledgeable/competitive/etc than others. But on the whole, it was a great crowd. The crowd made the server fun, and the CAP metagame just so happened to be the metagame that was played there. Yes, it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing -- the CAP pokemons (ie. "the metagame") attracted people to the server and the server people made the metagame attractive. But my point is this -- the CAP metagame and the CAP server community (the CAP ladder and CAP chat on Showdown, I guess) go hand in hand. You must consider how to improve the community around the metagame, not just improve the metagame itself in isolation.

The CAP Server community experts were considered senior CAP project leaders solely for their participation in moderating/battling on the server. Some CAP server mods/battlers would rarely post on the forums, yet everyone on the CAP project knew who they were and treated them with respect roughly on par with CAP forum moderators. CAP server mods were a BIG DEAL in CAP in the DP gen. That alone afforded enormous clout to the CAP metagame. It also was the foundation for activity with battling-related CAP activities, like playtesting, CAP tournaments, analysis writing, ladder leaderboards, etc. That "side" of the CAP project was fully considered to be HALF of the CAP community/project as a whole -- not in numbers or participation, but in terms of IMPORTANCE.

You will never "beat OU", when it comes to making a metagame based on OU -- you have to think outside the box. I'm not saying anyone wants to "beat OU" here. But, if we make a metagame that is simply "OU with a bunch of pokemon you don't know about", we probably fail to get any real traction at all. The metagame needs more than just weird pokemon alternatives to play with. That may bring people to drive by and see what CAP is about -- but it won't pull them into the metagame. Remember, the CAP project's biggest power is that we are not bound by the "rules" that govern OU or even Smogon as a whole. We can use that to our advantage. I have a TON of thoughts on this point, but I just don't have time to go through them all. But I encourage everyone to think more about this last point. In reading this thread, most people posting are assuming boundaries that simply do not exist for our project.
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
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I would like to see Deck Knight and jas61292 come up with a joint conclusion to this thread. Please chat via PM to get a timebox worked out. That being said, take your time. CAP19 starting is not contingent on any policy being committed from this discussion. Carry on!
 

jas61292

used substitute
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So, I've had some words with Deck, and between this topic not having seen any real discussion for a while and the fact that it seems that most people are on the same page here, we will probably be ready to post a conclusion fairly soon. With that said, I'm just going to put a preliminary 48 hour warning on this thread. If anyone has anything else important to say on this topic, please get it in before then.
 

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