STABmons+

[Mr155551]

So Porygon-z Is back with a vengence

Porygon-z@Choice Specs/Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA/4 SpD/252 Spe
Modest Nature
Boomburst
Dark Pulse
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam

Everyone knows how pory-z was a threat back then well it's back and better than ever the set is classic boomburst for stab dark pulse ice beam and thunderbolt for coverage let's see how much it does against counters

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 310-366 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 410-484 (92.3 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 250-296 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy: 442-520 (99.5 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

as you can see this is really strong

 

[Froggyboy]

Why have a timid nature in your set, but show modest in your calcs? Choose one man.

 

[Klang]

I don't understand why

Mega Pokemon can now lend their typing to their base forme! For example, Gyarados sails in with every Dark move along with Water and Flying!

but Primal reversions are for some reason excluded from this rule. Primal reversions are pretty much like Mega Evolutions in every way except they don't apply to the "1 Mega Evolution per team" rule, and the rule that Primal Reversions don't apply just seems like an addition to keep Primal Groudon from being broken. I think if this applies to Megas this should also apply to Primals for consistency.

 

[xJownage]

I don't understand why



but Primal reversions are for some reason excluded from this rule. Primal reversions are pretty much like Mega Evolutions in every way except they don't apply to the "1 Mega Evolution per team" rule, and the rule that Primal Reversions don't apply just seems like an addition to keep Primal Groudon from being broken. I think if this applies to Megas this should also apply to Primals for consistency.

Agreed completely, and if primal groudon with sacred fire + arrows is too good and it just needs to go it may be the case. Remember how good it is in ubers, and then make it uncounterable, and here we go. Its almost impossible to revenge kill, and even harder to wall. I honestly see fire's movepool making it ridiculously broken, say hi to will-o-wisp on defensive sets, as well as v-create, and rock polish + swords dance becomes impossible to wall (arrows + fire is literally perfect coverage).

 

[Froggyboy]

I think it's because Primal Groudon would be broken with V-Create+Thousand Arrows and such, and Primal Kyorge gets nothing from its Primal, so it would be stupid to say Groudon and Kyorge get moves from their primal reversions, when only Primal Groudon would benefit from it.

 

[EV]

So... you want me to allow Primal Groudon to lend Fire to Groudon ... only to have me ban it because we've all agreed it's broken with Fire? I think I'll stick to the Mega rule only, which allows Primal Groudon to still participate, just not with Fire moves it can't normally learn. If anything I'm doing Groudon a favor by NOT letting it get Fire because this way we don't have to ban it.

 

[Jaguar360]

^Agreeing with EG's decision. Why allow Primal lending and ban Groudon when you can ban Primal lending and allow Groudon?

Kyurem-B @ Lum Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Shard / Icicle Crash
- Dragon Claw / Outrage / Bolt Strike
- Bolt Strike / Sacred Fire
Ah, look at that destruction.

Rotom-W @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
- Roost
- Volt Switch
- Scald / Steam Eruption
- Will-o-Wisp / Defog / Haze / Ice Beam / Searing Shot
Rotom's utility is looking outstanding now. Reliable recovery, reliable Water STAB and access to good coverage and other utility options like Defog, Haze, Tailwind and Spore.

Darmanitan @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Flare Blitz / Sacred Fire
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
With Agility, Darm no longer needs to worry about its awkward Speed and can focus on sweeping. 156 Spe allows him to outspeed max base 70s before setting up and, at +2, he outspeeds Scarf base 110s.

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Calm Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Softboiled
- Moonblast / Light of Ruin
- Stealth Rock / Flamethrower
Clefable is actually a nice choice for a Rapid Spinner since it takes no damage from hazards and can set up its own Stealth Rock. Clefable also now gets Light of Ruin since the unreleased moves are released, which has excellent syngergy with Magic Guard.

 

[xJownage]

So... you want me to allow Primal Groudon to lend Fire to Groudon ... only to have me ban it because we've all agreed it's broken with Fire? I think I'll stick to the Mega rule only, which allows Primal Groudon to still participate, just not with Fire moves it can't normally learn. If anything I'm doing Groudon a favor by NOT letting it get Fire because this way we don't have to ban it.

The issue with this is quite simply the redundancy of the rule. You are saying all forme changes are like this, but heres an arbitrary exception to keep a pokemon balanced. Thats like banning sylveon from normals movepool to stop it from being broken; its just nonsense. Either be consistent and ban stuff or be consistent and leave things unbanned, either way it doesn't matter. If you are going to make this an "unleashed" version, restricting one mon is out of place.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Why are we theorymoning the two Kyurem forms with Fire and Electric type forms other than the fusion moves? None of Kyurems forms are a typing other than Dragon or Ice, and Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W do not count as a alternate form of Zekrom and Reshiram respectivly

 

[DinaIsha]

The DNA Splice conjoins it with Reshiram and Zekrom, so it gets their moves as well.

 

[Jaguar360]

Why are we theorymoning the two Kyurem forms with Fire and Electric type forms other than the fusion moves? None of Kyurems forms are a typing other than Dragon or Ice, and Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W do not count as a alternate form of Zekrom and Reshiram respectivly

I think I got confused by the OP a bit. How exactly does the Kyurem thing work out? Now I'm thinking:
Kyurem - Dragon/Fire/Electric/Ice
KyuB - Dragon/Electric/Ice
KyuW - Dragon/Fire/Ice
Zekrom - Dragon/Electric/Ice
Reshiram - Dragon/Fire/Ice
Am I overthinking here?

 

[xJownage]

The all get everything Jaguar360
If you changed forme, got those moves, then changed forme back and transferred forme again you would get all the moves on all of them

 

[Da Pizza Man]

By this logic Cloyster should get access to Psychic type moves since Slowbro is a combination of Slowpoke and Shellder, Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W are not considred alternate forms of Zekrom and Reshiram, they are considerd alternate forms of Kyurem, they should not get moves from them

 

[xJownage]

By this logic Cloyster should get access to Psychic type moves since Slowbro is a combination of Slowpoke and Shellder, Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W are not considred alternate forms of Zekrom and Reshiram, they are considerd alternate forms of Kyurem, they should not get moves from them

The all get everything Jaguar360
If you changed forme, got those moves, then changed forme back and transferred forme again you would get all the moves on all of them

you can interchange those mons in game, and if the moves are legal they will retain such moves. By this logic, you can access such moves on each forme

If you could change shellder into slowbro then sure but you can't so...

 

[skies]

By this logic Cloyster should get access to Psychic type moves since Slowbro is a combination of Slowpoke and Shellder, Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W are not considred alternate forms of Zekrom and Reshiram, they are considerd alternate forms of Kyurem, they should not get moves from them

Kyurem directly merges with Reshiram into a new form, therefore it's a Fire-type blend. Kyurem-B can be dissected into Kyurem + Reshiram. Cloyster can not, and it's not evolved that way in-game.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

you can interchange those mons in game, and if the moves are legal they will retain such moves. By this logic, you can access such moves on each forme

If you could change shellder into slowbro then sure but you can't so...

you can interchange those mons in game, and if the moves are legal they will retain such moves. By this logic, you can access such moves on each forme

If you could change shellder into slowbro then sure but you can't so...

You can interchange them I understand that, but problem is that the brand new Kyurem forms gets its moves from the Kyurem (Apart from the fact that they can learn Fusion Flare and Ice Burn / Fusion Bolt and Freeze Shock, but them getting the Fusion moves is no different from Cosplay Pikachu getting a move other than Electric Terrain), not from Reshiram or Zekrom, if Kyurem changed its type with this then that would work, but problem is that it does not. this also ties into Reshiram and Zekrom geting access to Ice type moves, when you use the DNA Splicers to unfuse the two, then you get Reshiram/Zekrom back untouched, so if they don't change their moveset at all then why should they get access to Ice type moves from a fusion that didn't change them one bit when they where unfused?

 

[Lcass4919]

So... you want me to allow Primal Groudon to lend Fire to Groudon ... only to have me ban it because we've all agreed it's broken with Fire? I think I'll stick to the Mega rule only, which allows Primal Groudon to still participate, just not with Fire moves it can't normally learn. If anything I'm doing Groudon a favor by NOT letting it get Fire because this way we don't have to ban it.

just saying, but then you should probably put it in the "clauses" as a complex ban. since that is what it is. it sounds like you tried to make it sound "intrinsic knowledge" in the post unfixable made, when in reality it actually contradicts a main point of this meta-game: that all forms can steal attacks from their other forms. and primal reversions are forms, just like Castform water, ice, and fire, are also considered forms(both are impossible to use outside of battle unless hacked in).

don't get me wrong, i agree with this choice tbh, it saves a pokemon who otherwise is perfectly fine in the meta. however, this restriction is still a complex ban and should be labeled in the clauses.

 

[EV]

You can interchange them I understand that, but problem is that the brand new Kyurem forms gets its moves from the Kyurem (Apart from the fact that they can learn Fusion Flare and Ice Burn / Fusion Bolt and Freeze Shock, but them getting the Fusion moves is no different from Cosplay Pikachu getting a move other than Electric Terrain), not from Reshiram or Zekrom, if Kyurem changed its type with this then that would work, but problem is that it does not. this also ties into Reshiram and Zekrom geting access to Ice type moves, when you use the DNA Splicers to unfuse the two, then you get Reshiram/Zekrom back untouched, so if they don't change their moveset at all then why should they get access to Ice type moves from a fusion that didn't change them one bit when they where unfused?

Essentially it's because when Kyurem and Reshiram fuse, Kyurem-W now learns Fusion Flare, a Fire move that it normally couldn't. That access to Fire is due solely to the fusion with Reshiram. I do see the point about Reshiram not gaining Ice in return, however. I'll think about it more.

just saying, but then you should probably put it in the "clauses" as a complex ban. since that is what it is. it sounds like you tried to make it sound "intrinsic knowledge" in the post unfixable made, when in reality it actually contradicts a main point of this meta-game: that all forms can steal attacks from their other forms. and primal reversions are forms, just like Castform water, ice, and fire, are also considered forms(both are impossible to use outside of battle unless hacked in).

don't get me wrong, i agree with this choice tbh, it saves a pokemon who otherwise is perfectly fine in the meta. however, this restriction is still a complex ban and should be labeled in the clauses.

This is turning into an argument about semantics when we're all trying to achieve the same end. Why can't you guys just accept that I've excluded the Primals because I'm considering them their own category of forme (much like Megas are their own category)?

- Chatter
- Oblivion Wing
- Heart Swap
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
Just a selection of the toys this beast gets now. Also, I think Diggersby is still relevant but it has a much harder time with the increased bulk and power of its targets. It finally has Thousand Arrows at least!

 

[Mr155551]

^Agreeing with EG's decision. Why allow Primal lending and ban Groudon when you can ban Primal lending and allow Groudon?

Kyurem-B @ Lum Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Shard / Icicle Crash
- Dragon Claw / Outrage / Bolt Strike
- Bolt Strike / Sacred Fire
Ah, look at that destruction.

Rotom-W @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
- Roost
- Volt Switch
- Scald / Steam Eruption
- Will-o-Wisp / Defog / Haze / Ice Beam / Searing Shot
Rotom's utility is looking outstanding now. Reliable recovery, reliable Water STAB and access to good coverage and other utility options like Defog, Haze, Tailwind and Spore.

Darmanitan @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Flare Blitz / Sacred Fire
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
With Agility, Darm no longer needs to worry about its awkward Speed and can focus on sweeping. 156 Spe allows him to outspeed max base 70s before setting up and, at +2, he outspeeds Scarf base 110s.

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Calm Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Softboiled
- Moonblast / Light of Ruin
- Stealth Rock / Flamethrower
Clefable is actually a nice choice for a Rapid Spinner since it takes no damage from hazards and can set up its own Stealth Rock. Clefable also now gets Light of Ruin since the unreleased moves are released, which has excellent syngergy with Magic Guard.

Now i have to question why sacred fire when you can use v-create for more power

 

[Froggyboy]

Sacred Fire is boosted by Sheer Force and doesn't lower your stats.

 

[Mr155551]

That's for darmanitan i was talking about kyu-b

 

[EV]

Removed Zekrom/Reshiram from gaining anything in the Kyurem share. Kyurem still gains Fire/Electric and can give it to Black and White however.

 

[Ghoul King]

Well this is nuts.

I would like to point out that the logic that Kyurem-Black and White are fused with Zekrom/Reshiram for the "transference" is a bit suspect -Kyurem-Black is not considered to be an alternate Forme of Zekrom, and in fact they can be used alongside each other if you have a spare Zekrom without species clause kicking in. (Species clause is the "hard" check for whether a thing is a Form[e] or not) In fact, Kyurem-Black doesn't get access to Zekrom's movepool, it just gets one signature move (When Zekrom has two, at that. Note for instance Zekrom can Volt switch and Kyurem-Black cannot) -this is verging into territory suggesting that because Victini has access to Zekrom and Reshiram's signature moves through an event it should get Dragon and Electric transference, which nobody would argue makes sense. Or that Regigigas should have access to Rock, Ice, and Steel because you need the other three Regis to awaken it, if we want to wander even farther away from sensibility.

I am intrigued by the possibility of a meta in which Castform is actually interesting. Probably not good, but it's certainly interesting. Too bad all the Ubers are running around to render it totally irrelevant. :(

Destiny Bond seems like the biggest thing Rotom Forms gain out of the Ghost inheritance. That will be quite interesting. (Where interesting means infuriating)

 

[Snaquaza]

I feel like Pre-Evolutions should get the moves from their evolutions as well, because why not? This meta is all about giving Pokemon moves that they couldn't previously access but that there is a sensible way to give them. Evolutions can receive moves from pre-evolutions already, so it's not too farfetch'd. It's like a parent learning their children their moves?

Anyway there is one evolutionary line that would really benefit from this: The Eevee line. They would get access to the moves from nine typings. I dont' really think it would be OP as they got pretty weak movepools right now, but they'll not shine that much besides all the ubers, but maybe get some recognition. The typings they get aren't that great either (Not like Bug or Steel), so it mostly adds coverage and a few support options. Sylveon might seem OP but remember that Boomburst will outdamage most of the new options it gets. All it can really abuse seems Flamethrower and Spore to me.

So let me know what you think of this!

 

[Jaguar360]

Now i have to question why sacred fire when you can use v-create for more power

V-Create is lowering your Speed and Defenses, making it more suitable for wallbreaking rather than sweeping, which is what the Dragon Dance set aims to do.