Ladder STABmons (the old one)

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EV

Banned deucer.
Will Greninja be included under Banned, or just disappear from Unbanned, seeing as it is Uber in standard play as well?
Disappear. We're actually discussing doing away with the unbanned Ubers category soon. They always cause trouble.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
This might be too soon , but if we wanna talk future suspects, I think these are appropriate:


HP: 79

Attack: 115

Defense: 70

Sp. Atk: 125

Sp. Def: 80

Speed: 111


Thanks to it's ability Prankster, Thundurus-I can easily set up Nasty Plot, allowing it to get +2 SpA in a breeze. He also has access to great STAB moves such as Thunderbolt, Oblivion Wing, and Hurricane. While also having access to great coverage moves like Focus Blast, Hidden Power Ice, Grass Knot, Sludge Wave and the all so coveted Knock Off. I feel that Thundurus's presence in the metagame is kinda overwhelming. Although it is weak to the Fakespeed combo and is frail, but idk if it's negatives overweight it's positives.

Here are some example sets:
Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Oblivion Wing
- Thunder Wave
- Nasty Plot

Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 140 HP / 116 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Oblivion Wing
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt

Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Taunt
- Oblivion Wing
- Thunder Wave
- Superpower


It's debatable however, as he does keep many setup sweepers in check with priority Twave




HP: 89

Attack: 125

Defense: 90

Sp. Atk: 115

Sp. Def: 80

Speed: 101


Now this I know is totally broken. Already being suspected in OU, having access to the boost of Sheer Force and Life Orb is truly to much for the metagame. In STABmons he gets even better with new moves like Hurricane and Air Slash both getting boosted by Sheer Force. He also has Oblivion Wing for nice recovery, and good coverage moves such as Focus Blast, Knock off, Sludge Wave, Hidden Power Ice, Psychic and many more. To add to that he has to great setup moves in Calm Mind and Rock Polish, boosting Landorus's already great stats. To me, there is no question that Landorus-I should be banned, or at least suspected.

Here are some example sets:
Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Hurricane
- Oblivion Wing
- Focus Blast

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Oblivion Wing
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Air Slash
- Calm Mind
- Rock Polish

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earth Power
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- Focus Blast


Idk just suggesting for further discussion
 
Yes. We're not going to treat it like a suspect test. We'll make a decision at the end of the Landorus test in OU.
I don't know how much I like the idea of banning all the Standard Ubers on principle. I'm in favor of continuing to judge individual mons on their merits or lack thereof.

At the moment we have Deo-D, Deo-S, Aegislash, and Darkrai in the tier.

Deo-D doesn't get anything seriously new to work with, and its utility as a slow, bulky hazard setter should be diminished by Magic Bouncers Espeon and Mega Sableye getting new toys to work with, as well as all Normal and Flying types getting Rapid Spin and Defog respectively. I've never seen it, I don't see myself using it.

Deo-S doesn't get much in the way of new toys either, except maybe Heart Swap, but it still has that famous Speed. Of course, a lot of mons get cool priority moves to use against it, and as a hazard setter it might be able to use that fast taunt, but it's not so overwhelming now with hazard clearers that can threaten it. Not bad by any stretch, but STABmons gives us the tools to deal with it.

Darkrai is a fast Dark Void user, and has the offensive presence to back it up. Of course, all Dark types can run Dark Void now, and lots of things have offensive presence now. It gets Parting Shot and Night Daze out of the deal as well, off the top of my head. If we wanted to look at it, I wouldn't mind, but I'd sooner look at Dark Void, which also turns Sableye into a goddamn terror.

Aegislash is still basically unique on several fronts and still seriously powerful, especially with its more powerful STABs and Shift Gear. Every other Steel type gets King's Shield now, but that isn't a huge deal. I haven't had a ton of experience against it, but it's consistently really dangerous to my teams. The tier doesn't get a ton of new stuff to use against it. Would not object to this simply being taken out of the tier, unlike the rest, but I would still prefer some discussion first.

On the whole, though, the present unbanned Ubers warrant individual consideration, and depending on what happens in future generations, there could be stuff that's mainly Ubers for their unique movepool or for the low distribution of moves that answer them, in which case categorically banning them a generation early doesn't make sense.

Apologies for errors, I'm on my phone.

Funbot28 don't forget that Thundy can run great Physical or Mixed sets with Bolt Strike and Dragon Ascent/Brave Bird and the always useful Defiant.
 
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Funbot28, you also forgot Defiant sets :p. Anyways, Landorus won't be suspected/banned until after its OU suspect, because we may or may not lose it either way, so there's no point in running it now. I'm not on board with a Thundurus ban, however. I don't feel it's overcentralizing or broken, it's just really really really good. (e) But I do think it might be a good discussion. What do you guys think? Is Thundurus deserving of the next suspect?
 

EV

Banned deucer.
This might be too soon , but if we wanna talk future suspects, I think these are appropriate:


HP: 79

Attack: 115

Defense: 70

Sp. Atk: 125

Sp. Def: 80

Speed: 111


Thanks to it's ability Prankster, Thundurus-I can easily set up Nasty Plot, allowing it to get +2 SpA in a breeze. He also has access to great STAB moves such as Thunderbolt, Oblivion Wing, and Hurricane. While also having access to great coverage moves like Focus Blast, Hidden Power Ice, Grass Knot, Sludge Wave and the all so coveted Knock Off. I feel that Thundurus's presence in the metagame is kinda overwhelming. Although it is weak to the Fakespeed combo and is frail, but idk if it's negatives overweight it's positives.

Here are some example sets:
Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Oblivion Wing
- Thunder Wave
- Nasty Plot

Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 140 HP / 116 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Oblivion Wing
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt

Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Taunt
- Oblivion Wing
- Thunder Wave
- Superpower


It's debatable however, as he does keep many setup sweepers in check with priority Twave




HP: 89

Attack: 125

Defense: 90

Sp. Atk: 115

Sp. Def: 80

Speed: 101


Now this I know is totally broken. Already being suspected in OU, having access to the boost of Sheer Force and Life Orb is truly to much for the metagame. In STABmons he gets even better with new moves like Hurricane and Air Slash both getting boosted by Sheer Force. He also has Oblivion Wing for nice recovery, and good coverage moves such as Focus Blast, Knock off, Sludge Wave, Hidden Power Ice, Psychic and many more. To add to that he has to great setup moves in Calm Mind and Rock Polish, boosting Landorus's already great stats. To me, there is no question that Landorus-I should be banned, or at least suspected.

Here are some example sets:
Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Hurricane
- Oblivion Wing
- Focus Blast

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Oblivion Wing
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Air Slash
- Calm Mind
- Rock Polish

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earth Power
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- Focus Blast


Idk just suggesting for further discussion
Thundurus wants Taunt. Standard is Taunt/Nasty Plot/Oblivion Wing/Thunderbolt.

Don't use Air Slash. Oblivion Wing/Hurricane > Air Slash every single day of the week. Both OW and Hurricane can be run on the same set, too. OW when you need reliable damage and Hurricane when you need a nuke.

I don't know how much I like the idea of banning all the Standard Ubers on principle. I'm in favor of continuing to judge individual mons on their merits or lack thereof.

At the moment we have Deo-D, Deo-S, Aegislash, and Darkrai in the tier.

Deo-D doesn't get anything seriously new to work with, and its utility as a slow, bulky hazard setter should be diminished by Magic Bouncers Espeon and Mega Sableye getting new toys to work with, as well as all Normal and Flying types getting Rapid Spin and Defog respectively. I've never seen it, I don't see myself using it.

Deo-S doesn't get much in the way of new toys either, except maybe Heart Swap, but it still has that famous Speed. Of course, a lot of mons get cool priority moves to use against it, and as a hazard setter it might be able to use that fast taunt, but it's not so overwhelming now with hazard clearers that can threaten it. Not bad by any stretch, but STABmons gives us the tools to deal with it.

Darkrai is a fast Dark Void user, and has the offensive presence to back it up. Of course, all Dark types can run Dark Void now, and lots of things have offensive presence now. It gets Parting Shot and Night Daze out of the deal as well, off the top of my head. If we wanted to look at it, I wouldn't mind, but I'd sooner look at Dark Void, which also turns Sableye into a goddamn terror.

Aegislash is still basically unique on several fronts and still seriously powerful, especially with its more powerful STABs and Shift Gear. Every other Steel type gets King's Shield now, but that isn't a huge deal. I haven't had a ton of experience against it, but it's consistently really dangerous to my teams. The tier doesn't get a ton of new stuff to use against it. Would not object to this simply being taken out of the tier, unlike the rest, but I would still prefer some discussion first.

On the whole, though, the present unbanned Ubers warrant individual consideration, and depending on what happens in future generations, there could be stuff that's mainly Ubers for their unique movepool or for the low distribution of moves that answer them, in which case categorically banning them a generation early doesn't make sense.

Apologies for errors, I'm on my phone.

Funbot28 don't forget that Thundy can run great Physical or Mixed sets with Bolt Strike and Dragon Ascent/Brave Bird and the always useful Defiant.
I would rather address them as a whole going forward. My main reason is that if something is deemed broken in OU, it's most definitely broken in STABmons because it gets (usually) even more shit to abuse than before. I also think a straight OU banlist is easier to present to new players, rather than saying, "Well you see, X is Ubers normally but in STABmons it's not quite as bad because so many other things get the moves that made it broken." Like Kl4ng said in our council convo, we should focus on removing broken threats from STABmons, not dropping Ubers which, arguably, are still really good, and as we've seen with Darkrai, Greninja, and Aegislash, often too good.
 
hey there. posting this because eevee said i could post it here. doom desire has weird mechanics with aegislash. in shield forme, it uses the special attack of shield; however, in attack forme, it uses the special attack of attack. so, for full doom desire power, you must be in blade / attack forme. shield will not do as much. eevee && i tested this on showdown!, so that's how it works there. how it works in-game? not exactly sure if it's the same. but yeah, just in case you were wondering u_u.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
hey there. posting this because eevee said i could post it here. doom desire has weird mechanics with aegislash. in shield forme, it uses the special attack of shield; however, in attack forme, it uses the special attack of attack. so, for full doom desire power, you must be in blade / attack forme. shield will not do as much. eevee && i tested this on showdown!, so that's how it works there. how it works in-game? not exactly sure if it's the same. but yeah, just in case you were wondering u_u.
this is probably something to ask a tester about, because i would assume the opposite is true, considering last gen it was based on what the CURRENT pokes stats on the feild were, but now the damage is based off the initial stat of the attack(including any possible modifiers on said stat) i would imagine due to doom desire using blades form rather then shield form, it should calculate the form which initiates the attack (blade) and changing form shouldnt alter the damage given (similar to switching the pokemon out) idk its worth testing.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Just asking. If a move that a pokemon can get normally is incompatible with an ability but the pokemon gets the move due to STABmons mechanics, can it use the move? The reason I ask this is because I want to know if Sap Sipper Azumarill can carry Whirlpool or not.
this is probably something to ask a tester about, because i would assume the opposite is true, considering last gen it was based on what the CURRENT pokes stats on the feild were, but now the damage is based off the initial stat of the attack(including any possible modifiers on said stat) i would imagine due to doom desire using blades form rather then shield form, it should calculate the form which initiates the attack (blade) and changing form shouldnt alter the damage given (similar to switching the pokemon out) idk its worth testing.
I think the gen 6 mechanics of the move use the users SpA stat - not the currently active 'mons. Can someone check this with Jirachi in-game (because I don't have one and can't gen)?
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
Just asking. If a move that a pokemon can get normally is incompatible with an ability but the pokemon gets the move due to STABmons mechanics, can it use the move? The reason I ask this is because I want to know if Sap Sipper Azumarill can carry Whirlpool or not.
I'm pretty sure you can use the move in this case.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I think the gen 6 mechanics of the move use the users SpA stat - not the currently active 'mons. Can someone check this with Jirachi in-game (because I don't have one and can't gen)?
i clearly said that it was a gen 5 mechanic, and it changed this gen, lol.
 
Just asking. If a move that a pokemon can get normally is incompatible with an ability but the pokemon gets the move due to STABmons mechanics, can it use the move? The reason I ask this is because I want to know if Sap Sipper Azumarill can carry Whirlpool or not.

I think the gen 6 mechanics of the move use the users SpA stat - not the currently active 'mons. Can someone check this with Jirachi in-game (because I don't have one and can't gen)?
Yep you can use those moves, one example being defog gliscor.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
i clearly said that it was a gen 5 mechanic, and it changed this gen, lol.
I didn't deny that u said it was a gen 5 mechanic. I'm just not 100% on the new mechanics, so I thought I'd point out what I think they are ('cause I checked this a few days ago and forgot, but im pretty sure it is) :)
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I believe we should just wait and see if Landorus is too strong for STABmons, and not just ban it right away
 
That doesn't make sense. The metagame has been the same for a while, Landorus isn't new. Bottomline is that STABmons follows the OU banlist, so unbans will be discussed rather than the other way around.

Also,
I would rather address them as a whole going forward. My main reason is that if something is deemed broken in OU, it's most definitely broken in STABmons because it gets (usually) even more shit to abuse than before. I also think a straight OU banlist is easier to present to new players, rather than saying, "Well you see, X is Ubers normally but in STABmons it's not quite as bad because so many other things get the moves that made it broken." Like Kl4ng said in our council convo, we should focus on removing broken threats from STABmons, not dropping Ubers which, arguably, are still really good, and as we've seen with Darkrai, Greninja, and Aegislash, often too good.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Yeah our new policy is to let Ubers stay banned. We'll address the remaining Ubers after OMPL ends but Landorus will stay banned.
 

Is Mega Scizor broken?
Let me preface this post by saying that I do not support banning things until after OMPL is over, as shaking up the metagame midway does not sound like a good idea. However, once OMPL has concluded, I believe that Scizorite should be banned from STABmons. Mega Scizor is, quite frankly, a step ahead of every other Pokemon in the current metagame bar maybe Darkrai. With impeccable bulk 70 / 140 / 100, backed by a stellar typing that leaves Mega Scizor with a resistance to Normal-, Ice-, Fairy-, and Dragon-type moves which are prevalent in the current metagame. Furthermore, it has an insane base Attack stat of 150. What sets Mega Scizor out is the combination of Shift Gear + Gear Grind. This is a very potent combination in a metagame which naturally allows for Mega Scizor to find ways to set up and attempt a sweep or cause insanely massive damage to the opponent. Mega Scizor also has non-Mega sets and Defensive sets, but those are nowhere near broken so I will not commenting on them. Mega Scizor is broken because it fulfills the criteria of what is broken. According to the STABmons council's opening post:

  • It is broken, since:
    • It's capable of KO'ing the majority of the metagame with little effort, OR
    • It facilitates the sweep of the majority of the metagame for another Pokemon with little effort, OR
    • It walls a majority of the metagame with little effort.
  • It is over-centralizing:
    • It requires multiple checks and counters per team, OR
    • It requires the use of obscure checks/counters that are otherwise unviable or expose its allies to unnecessary risk.
  • Using the Pokemon can give an unskilled player the advantage over a normally higher skilled player, because:
    • Its moves are incredibly difficult to counter since little to no prediction is required, OR
    • The strategies it excels in abusing create 50/50s all too often.
Let's dissect this, shall we?

It's capable of KO'ing the majority of the metagame with little effort
In just one turn, Mega Scizor is able to hit an Attack stat of 657. Gear Grind naturally hits at 150 power, thanks to Technician boosting its power. This is enough to KO the large majority of the metagame, and even 2HKO most of the metagame that isn't OHKOed! Furthermore, all it needs is Superpower and it does OHKO everything in the metagame bar a very select group of Pokemon.

It facilitates the sweep of the majority of the metagame for another Pokemon with little effort
Mega Scizor just needs one turn, and it is able to sweep an entire metagame. In one fell swoop, or click of a button if you've decided to take the boring route, you've ended a game. If the opponent does not have Thundurus, or if the opponent's "checks" to Mega Scizor are weakened / out of the picture, then Mega Scizor can easily sweep with little to no effort.

It walls a majority of the metagame with little effort
That's the thing about Mega Scizor: it walls a lot. Landorus-T, Azumarill, Kangaskhan, Stoutland, Braviary, every other Normal-type; they are not breaking Mega Scizor any time soon. While its ability to wall is not why it's broken, it is a factor in my opinion. This stands out when it receives competition from uh... Excadrill? Mega Scizor has the bulk to take a hit and set up, and even recover to set up more and more.

It requires multiple checks and counters per team
This is a big one. All of my teams lately have been "do I have a solid Mega Scizor counter?'... and then I get swept by one!

'Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.'

Pokemon B is Mega Scizor in this scenario. Let's look for checks to Mega Scizor. Unboosted, all Fire-types check it; that's a given. However, after just one boost, everything changes. The following Pokemon are able to come in on Mega Scizor as it boosts:

Thundurus, Sableye, Gyarados, Ditto, Hippowdon, Skarmory, Garchomp

Thundurus is able to come in, paralyze Mega Scizor, and move on. In this process, you sack Thundurus, but at the expense of your team not being swept. However, Thundurus has to be very careful. Unboosted Gear Grind will OHKO Thundurus after Stealth Rock + one round of LO damage. Sableye can come in and either cripple with Will-O-Wisp, Dark Void, or Topsy-Turvy. As with Thundurus, Mega Scizor can OHKO with Gear Grind after Stealth Rock, so it can't switch directly in. Ditto is very obvious. I'm pretty sure it gets overwhelmed, however... Gyarados is one of the most consistent and solid Mega Scizor checks. Intimidate negates the boost from Gear Grind, and it can paralyze with Thunder Wave. Hippowdon has been my latest Mega Scizor check. Unboosted Gear Grind is more likely than not going to 2HKO Hippowdon, but that risk is still there (44%). +1 Gear Grind does a hell of a lot, but Huppowdon can Whirlwind it out and that will save your team in a risky situation. Skarmory can Whirlwind, but any set lacking it will fall eventually. Garchomp, while not as obvious, can punish with Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin, live a Gear Grind with just a slight bit of health, and KO in return with Fire Blast. This is grasping at straws, mind you. Besides these above Pokemon, Landorus-T, Heatran, Gliscor, and Quagsire are shaky checks. Landorus-T is overwhelmed and cannot 2HKO certain sets, leaving it set up on and overwhelmed. Heatran plays mindgames, but loses to Superpower. Gliscor is the same boat as Landorus-T, but it's weaker. But stallier. Quagsire walls non-Pin Missile sets.

'Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.'
Again, Mega Scizor is Pokemon B. However, I do not believe a counter exists... If I had to think of one, I would say it's Gyarados. It can switch in on Gear Grind with ease, and cripple with Thunder Wave. It can switch in on Shift Gear, take a +0 Gear Grind, and proceed to paralyze it. I'm really, really, really hoping someone corrects me on this. It is 2 AM, mind you, so I'm likely forgetting a counter that's very obvious. Whatever. There has to be one, right? All I see are dedicated checks, and a lot of them are flat out overwhelmed / killed in the process. You're gonna need all the help you can get to beat Mega Scizor! Offensive pressure, I'd say, is the most reliable. But even that is not enough sometimes because of Mega Scizor's bulk and typing.

It requires the use of obscure checks/counters that are otherwise unviable or expose its allies to unnecessary risk
Well, regular Gyarados wasn't used as much as I thought until Mega Scizor became so dominant. That's a thing. Not every team runs Hippowdon, Skarmory, TankChomp, or Gyarados. Thundurus, Ditto, and Sableye fit on offensive teams. I don't think any uncommon checks / counters are there, it's just the lack thereof.

Its moves are incredibly difficult to counter since little to no prediction is required
Considering Gear Grind 2HKOes a large majority of the metagame unboosted, yes, no prediction is required. Mega Scizor can click a move and win, it's just that easy. Shift Gear and Gear Grind are both clickable, and push Mega Scizor into an uncharted territory. Incredibly easy to use.

The strategies it excels in abusing create 50/50s all too often
Not the case for Mega Scizor. Unless you count Gear Grind (50/50) to be an abuse of 50/50s ;).

Mega Scizor fits the criteria of a broken Pokemon, in my opinion. I feel that it's unhealthy for the metagame because it's just so simply easy to abuse. Should be after OMPL. Also, Darkrai. That needs to leave as well. However, it's 2 AM and I don't want to make a post about that. Pinging Kl4ng, as I know he uses Darkrai a lot / wants it banned. So yeah. Discuss. Should Mega Scizor, more specifically Scizorite, be banned from STABmons?
 
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xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
And here continues the endless slippery slope of stabmons banning. Guys, this isn't going to stop. The best mon is always going to be considered broken in this tier because of the restrictions on all playstyles to check/counter all those threats in just 6 slots. My recommendation is that we wait to see what Eevee General does after OMPL. We shouldn't worry too much when I don't think we'll need to.

As of now, I think this meta is about as healthy as we can get it, the next best mon is always going to be up for banning. When mega scizor and darkrai both get banned, Terrakion is next. Just calling it now.
 
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