SM UU Beta (Mewnium Z, Staraptor, Victini banned)

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Changing focus a bit, I fell that, with these new drops, Latias rather enjoys the following set:

Latias: 72hp/184spa/252speed
Timid Nature. Life Orb/Leftovers/Dragonium-Z/???
-Hidden Power Fire
-Roost
-Thunderbolt
-Draco Meteor

Draco Meteor is STAB and Roost is so Latias can properly wall things. The other moves are here for the sake of giving Latias good coverage against most of it's checks/counters: HP Fire roasts Scizor and Bisharp, and Thunderbolt can not only beat up Mantine but, after Stealth Rock damage, 2HKO Togekiss and Assault Vest Azumarill. Case in point:

184 SpA Life Orb Latias Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 172-203 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 190-226 (50.8 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The EVs are the same as last gen's offensive defog, and I don't see much reason to change them, since Latias can survive a surprising amount of stuff with them, but still, full offensive sets are also possible.
 

G-Luke

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Don't think about it sorry :

High Ladd : 55 | Keldeo | 2.54583% | 25827 | 1.680% | 18716 | 1.629%
Highest Ladd : | 62 | Keldeo | 2.22108% | 25827 | 1.680% | 18716 | 1.629% |

Clefable is really, really, really good. Pure Fairy type is great and his Movepool is ridiculous.
You can run so many options and sets on this thing :

• Support (Koff, T-wave, Stealth Rock..)
• Unaware or Magic Guard CM (can also run coverage like Psychic / Stored Power or Flamethrower / Fire Blast).
• Cleric / Wish (Unaware one can check both NP & Specs Thundurus which is kinda cool).

And yeah oh my god Stall with Clefable = hell (please guys stop playing Stall, it's not enjoyable U_U)

Talking about Stall, I think this thing is top 1 Wallbreaker Stall in the entire tier :


Haxorus @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab

He can pass throught Clefable (don't care about Unaware with Mold Breaker) :

• 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 184-218 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 184-218 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And it's the same for the Pokémon played in Stall..

• +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 448-528 (113.7 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO

• +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 466-549 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
• +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 466-549 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

• +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 552-651 (128 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But in a 1v1 situation...

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haxorus: 260-308 (88.7 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

You should still pack an actual check for Clefable.
 

Moutemoute

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As long as it's vs Stall Team, you're going to DD on something while your opponent switch on Clefable / Unaware thing and if you have just a little bit of damages before it's easy :

• +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 276-326 (70.2 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
As long as it's vs Stall Team, you're going to DD on something while your opponent switch on Clefable / Unaware thing and if you have just a little bit of damages before it's easy :

• +1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 276-326 (70.2 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 Haxorus can be RK by scarf Hydre, Encore'd by Whimsicott, etc...

And it still barely KO Clefable at +1 with Adamant...
 

Moutemoute

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Why people keep talking about non sense thing. I talk about how good is Haxorus vs Stall Team so why did you talk about Hydreigon or Whimsicott ? Do you really think this kind of Pokemon exist in Stall team ..?
No they don't D:
 
Why people keep talking about non sense thing. I talk about how good is Haxorus vs Stall Team so why did you talk about Hydreigon or Whimsicott ? Do you really think this kind of Pokemon exist in Stall team ..?
No they don't D:
I believe the point he is trying to make is that although that set is decent vs stall, it'll have trouble vs other play styles. (The whimsicott part makes no sense though...we all already know that whimsi can encore on a double when a sweeper is trying to set up.)
 
If anyone is worried about Clefable, run Iron Tail over Poison Jab:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 346-408 (88 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Or you could also run Life Orb, but being locked on Outrage isn't good with a meta filled with fairy mons.

Oh, and for a wallllbreaker SD is far better, but with DD it gets the most out of this mon against other kinds of teams.

Also, talking about Haxorus as a whole, being effective against any kind of team and threatening from the very first turn (147 base with the possibility of holding items is really something) turns this mon into a killing machine. Mold Breaker turns it into the best DD user of the metagame by far, ignoring any ability that could stop it from rampaging through teams.

Also, A-Tales is a godsend for it. Haxorus is incredibly hard to wall, and with screens it gets an easier time getting at lest one DD. As a bonus A-Tales takes ice and dragon attacks for Haxorus coming from some obvious scarfers.
 
So what exactly stops Togekiss and doesn't actually have to worry about being getting shut down by flinches, biggest cancer in the metagame right now.
 
So I have a question I'm hoping someone more expierienced than me can answer. So I was just checking out the new viability rankings and saw that hawlucha is ranked at C+. I totally agree with this, as every time I've tried to use this thing its done nothing more than its swept. My question is though, since it was banned last gen and considered wholly broken, what changed for it to make it so mediocre now?
 

Kink

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So I have a question I'm hoping someone more expierienced than me can answer. So I was just checking out the new viability rankings and saw that hawlucha is ranked at C+. I totally agree with this, as every time I've tried to use this thing its done nothing more than its swept. My question is though, since it was banned last gen and considered wholly broken, what changed for it to make it so mediocre now?
Hey, great question, I think a lot of other users probably feel similarly towards other things in the tier. Even I'm surprised at how certain premier threats are fairing in this new powerhouse of a meta (Sylveon in C-, Hydreigon in A-, what is this world...) and to be honest I think the answer lies in the new additions we have in the tier.

Power Creeping is a phenomenon that occurs every generation as OU settles down. In general, only about ~50 mons are left in OU after its beta is finished. Since Gen 7 included new mons in OU, it only stands to reason that not all of the old Pokemon can remain in that tier (see Latias, Keldeo, Raikou, Bisharp, etc). Because of this, certain mons that were OU last generation are now UU this generation. This has shifted the overall balance of power and versatility of UU, and since SM UU is super young, certain Pokemon are getting way more focus than others. This is affecting the viability of some Pokemon such as Hawlucha. I mentioned Sylveon earlier. Pokemon such as Primarina, Azumarill, and now Clefable are really giving Sylv a run for its money as the token Fairy-go-to. That's not to say that Sylveon is bad; I personally think it's quite underrated. However, the overall viability of using it over other mons that fit current teambuilding moulds won't really dawn on people until that style of teambuilding sees a shift.

Now, this raises a couple points:
(1) Just because Hawlucha is C+ now doesn't necessarily mean it is objectively bad: my hypothesis for this point is that the large focus has been on other mons, or that the current teambuilding framework doesn't favour the overuse of Hawlucha when there are better moulds for the team. This can easily change with the addition or loss of some key Pokemon in the tier, which may result in shifting the balance of power in favour for Hawlucha.

(2) Viability is a product of innovation and response: Let's think about viability as a whole for a second: what makes a Pokemon good? Frankly, the people that use it with success over multiple platforms (tours, ladders, etc). Down the road (or perhaps sooner) people may produce neat sets or neat teams that can utilize Hawlucha's particular abilities, but only after spending some time to discover these types of sets/teams. In this case, we don't even need the shifting of mons, we simply need time for the meta to develop in order to highlight Hawlucha's abilities.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at just how volatile the VR is going to be over the next little while. It's really hard to see just how everything settles at this point in time. Things will definitely change over the next year as the meta continues to stabilize, and in my opinion, Hawlucha's story in UU isn't over yet n_n
 

G-Luke

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So I have a question I'm hoping someone more expierienced than me can answer. So I was just checking out the new viability rankings and saw that hawlucha is ranked at C+. I totally agree with this, as every time I've tried to use this thing its done nothing more than its swept. My question is though, since it was banned last gen and considered wholly broken, what changed for it to make it so mediocre now?
It doesn't help that Rain Offence is sooo powerful with the return of the stormbringer, mons that made it mediorce in OU last gen are now skipping all over UU e.g Clefable, Talonflame (sorta), Thundurus and the new gen has brought checks and competition of its own
 
UU is arguably more hit by the Power Creep we have each Gen than OU itself. Case in point: the Tapus (and to a lesser extent, Mimikyu) might as well have killed Clefable and Azumarill's entire OU viability, since they do their several Fairy-niches better. The result? They fell to UU where every other OU reject is also nuking everything. There is a reason UU has so many quickbans, even in comparison to other lower tiers.

On a related note, I'd like to call this the Volcarona Effect. When a mon is introduced, everyone spends it's debut gen speaking about how OP it is, OU Top-Tier, should be suspected, etc. Come next gen and it's just... OK. People will talk about how it is still good, but it will then keep bouncing between UU and OU, if it is not locked away in BL on first place.
 
Mimikyu did not impacted OU at all. Its just a new toy syndrom/Fan-Favorite bias/other things. Once people figure out its mediocre, it's dropping to UU, in which i firmly believe will shine
 
Mimikyu did not impacted OU at all. Its just a new toy syndrom/Fan-Favorite bias/other things. Once people figure out its mediocre, it's dropping to UU, in which i firmly believe will shine
It's partly why Trick Room is quite OU viable now, so I'm not entirely sure about that
 

sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
Mimikyu did not impacted OU at all. Its just a new toy syndrom/Fan-Favorite bias/other things. Once people figure out its mediocre, it's dropping to UU, in which i firmly believe will shine
I heavily disagree with you here. Mimikyu can carry Red Card, allowing it to stop pretty much every set up sweeper in OU due to its ability, which is very very nice to have especially with stuff like Z Fly Mence around. Also as mentioned above, its one of the new mons that make Trick Room mroe viable. Its a lot better than you are giving it credit for, and I feel like its going to stay in OU for a while. Also:
| 37 | Mimikyu | 5.019% |
It has decently high usage for now, doesn't look to be dropping for now.


In other news, Rain got a nice buff with Kingdra, which is very powerful and can carry coverage that Rain has been lacking. Rain Teams have definitly gotten better with that drop. I wanted to know what are peoples thoughts on Mantine? Mantine got a lot of buffs this gen that could make it a very nice check to a lot of things, including Keldeo, rain teams in general, and just completely stopping Suicune. I haven't gotten a chance to fool around with it yet, but it seems to be a lot of fun right now.
 
Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Fire Blast
- Soft-Boiled
- Focus Blast

clefable is the best mon in the tier
 

Cynde

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So I've been laddering a tiny bit and would like to share some sets that I think work pretty well right now.

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 240 HP / 124 SpD / 144 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Soft-Boiled

Surprisingly this mon doesn't get the usage that I thought it would despite this set being capable of almost single handedly dismantling a fair amount of your typical Hippowdon + Amoongus Balance teams in addition to pressuring the hell out of defensive teams. 144 Spe with a Jolly Nature allows you to outspeed max speed Rotoms preventing them from Wisping you or healing with Pain Split. But yeah this mon is a fantastic stall breaker and a good way to pressure balance. There are other sets that I've found pretty cool like NP + Aura Sphere w/ Colbur Berry or the NP 3 Atks (Psyshock, Flamethrower, Giga Drain) set I believe Hogg used but this has been the most standout set in terms of efficiency. With new tools like Clefable that handle threats to this like Mega Absol and partner very well with it that makes this pretty effective. Fun fact: you can burn absols :P. love synchronise.


Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Low Kick / Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

This is another mon that gets basically 0 usage despite being a pretty cool pick for Offensive / Offensive-Blance type teams. Most people would generally run Hippowdon as answer to this especially on Balance so after getting up to +2 and just a tiny bit of chip you can put most Balance teams in a pretty shitty position.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 76+ Def Hippowdon: 325-383 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (I believe that's the mixed defence spread (correct me if I'm wrong) which in my opinion is the most effective) therefore having a mon that can exploit that and check the plethora of Bisharp, Azu, Primarina and other stuff is just a nifty tool to have.


Crawdaunt @ Choice Band / Life Orb / Plate of your choice
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crabhammer
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
- Superpower / Crunch

This is one mon that has definitely loved the surge of Amoongus that's damn near put Chesnaught out of usage barring a few certain stall teams making this a real scary wallbreaker. Personally I think an all out attacking set is far more effective than the swords dance set because it doesn't really get much of an opportunity to set up a Swords Dance and with teams run a bunch of stuff to take on belly drum azu, more often than not you're in a better position to just be attacking. and even against defensive teams, with the increased presence of unaware mons just damaging them ended up being more productive for me. Superpower hits Hydreigon and stuff and Crunch is a cool tech that gives you a strong ass dark move after you've spammed Knock Off enough.
 
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Eyan

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Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 156 Def / 104 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Defog
- Roost
- Haze / Toxic / Air Slash

Haven't really seen much Mantine discussion so why not. Mantine is a pretty cool Pokemon, boasting an incredible amount of special bulk and other forms of utility in Water Absorb, Haze, and the staple of Defog + Roost. This is a spread that me and some friends (s/o Killintime and GrilledClawitzer ) coined up when the drops were first announced. It allows Mantine to always live a +2 LO Bug Bite from Scizor and 2 Secret Swords from Specs Keldeo after rocks, and 2 Psyshocks from Latias (you still get 2HKOd by LO ones after rocks even if you're max Def). You also have a good chance to live a Specs HP Electric from Keldeo after rocks if you want to scout a little there.

As far as Mantine functions, though, as is seen with some other Flying-type defoggers, the weakness to Stealth Rock is pretty big. It competes a lot with Pokemon like Starmie and Empoleon as hazard removal even with the utility the others don't have, especially when you consider Mantine's passiveness. Mantine also has a typing that tends to overlap with a ton of strong Pokemon in the meta, so it competes for the Water- / Flying-type slots in general when stuff like Keldeo, Azumarill, Primarina, Swampert, Thundurus, Togekiss exist, which tends to end up stacking a ton of weaknesses. If you don't do that, you're basically forcing Mantine to check certain threats its typing should enable it to check, but is generally iffy against, such as Scizor.

Overall, Mantine is a decent Pokemon but it's hard to fit on teams in the current meta if you're not running it on some form of fatter stall build. The aforementioned overlaps don't affect its performance as much there and it gets more flexibility as far as checking threats go. It'll probably get a bunch better if Azumarill ends up getting banned so your Water-type wall doesn't get obliterated on switch-in. Sets like Whirlpool may have some potential in the future but it's still highly experimental, so we'll see.
 
what are thoughts on unaware vs magic guard cm clef?
i feel like magic guard is a better all purpose ability, but unaware is really good for Cteaming opposing cm clefs, as well as acting as a better setup sweeper stop, altho does it really bc all the SD mons i can think of beat it anyways (cobalion, bisharp, scizor, toxicroak). On second thought i guess it beats some mons like nasty plot togekiss, thundurus and maybe some others.
On the flip side, running unaware kinda forces u to run a fat team bc it becomes susceptible to hazards and status, or u have to sacrifice coverage (which i think clef should run) for heal bell

also like surprisingly clef hasn't been too overwhelming, i feel like it became S in oras ou bc there were so many mons you had to account for, that it was hard to stop clef without dedicating a mon/set to doing so. rn SUMO uu has like so many strong mons that its not too hard to pressure clef naturally with like a CB azumarill or whatever
 

Ununhexium

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I think Clefable is mostly manageable in UU because all of the Pokemon that beat it are also really good Pokemon. Like you said, its easy to pressure with physical attackers like Bisharp and Scizor and even non super effective ones like CB Azumarill. Also, unless running Ice Beam, SD Gliscor can set up on it pretty easily and beat it provided Clefable isn't already boosted a ton and it is not Unaware. It's also easy to phaze out with stuff like Empoleon.

In regards to Magic Guard vs Unaware Clefable, Unaware Clefable I feel like requires a bit more support and only works on fat teams, but grants a larger reward in stopping non-SD sweepers. Magic Guard I feel like is a lot easier to just slap on a team and make it work with the kind of Pokemon it checks. Either way, it will pull weight every match, but doesn't dominate the game like it did in ORAS OU. I think the best set for both, funny enough, is Calm Mind. Magic Guard CM is hard to stop in a Reuniclus-esque manner and still checks a lot easily because it takes no hazard damage and stuff. I also think it appears to be the best on Unaware because it can stop the opposing setup sweeper and kind of like counter-sweep them.

I've also seen Stealth Rock which seems like a solid gluemon but not as important as in ORAS OU because of the distinct lack of Mega Sableye and a cleric set (but I feel like in some ways its better done by Sylveon). I'm most interested to see what people start using as the 4th move on Magic Guard CM, because Flamethrower, Thunder Wave, Ice Beam, and Knock Off are all seemingly good options.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Thinking about how Latias is in UU atm, and how Mawilite/Beedrillite will be released soon, how well Mega Latias may/may not do in UU has been on my mind as of late. Forgive me for discussing unreleased stuff, but with new toys such as Dhelmise/Kommo-o/Araquanid and more (and it's likely competition with Mega Aerodactyl, being UUs' seemingly top S-tier mon, similar to Lando-T) I do find it fascinating to speculate.

latias-mega.gif


Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover

In OU, I do run a similar set to this (but is Life Orb with Healing Wish support). Carrying BoltBeam coverage is a big surprise on Latias, and helps with Tapu Fini / non-AV Tangrowth / Lead Landorus-T running around in the tier (In UU, that would translate to Primarina / Gliscor / Shaymin (?)).

As for it's Mega - the extra Bulk it gains works well with Recover, giving you decent damage output and a means of sustain.

Some calcs:

  • 252+ Atk Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias-Mega: 210-248 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias-Mega: 144-171 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 126-150 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 4 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 108-128 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias-Mega: 168-200 (55.6 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


  • 252 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Honchkrow: 348-410 (102 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 SpA Latias-Mega Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 216-256 (71.7 - 85%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 SpA Latias-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 128-151 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Latias-Mega Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 278-328 (83.9 - 99%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Now don't worry - I do think there will be a lot of things that could wall Mega Latias (things like Doublade / Gengar / Magneton / Bisharp will likely give it headaches in regards to the set provided). However, with it having the possibility to run coverage like Earthquake / Surf / HP Fire and (of course) drop Dracos, as well as support like Healing Wish / Dual Screens / Thunder Wave, I think it'll make a superb blanket check in UU come the time.

It's a brave new world, isn't it people?
 

Moutemoute

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I don't really think it's a good idea to speak about this kind of stuff since we actually still don't know how and when Z-Stone will be release (exception for Beedrill & Mawile). It's hard theorymon and maybe Lati@site will be release in the end of 2017 so.. not a huge fan to talk about it right now ;_;
 
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