Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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aurora

GODQUAZA
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Blaziken: no change
In a vacuum, Blaziken doesn't appear that bad. It's a Pokemon with a decent STAB combination, powerful moves, and a fantastic ability that lets it capitalise on switches and potentially nab both Speed and Attack boosts in the same turn.

In practice, Blaziken has such a laundry list of flaws that it's almost impossible to justify on a team unless you're specifically building around it, which is not a trait shared by Pokemon in B- and even C+ in some cases. It's forced to choose between +Atk and +Spe natures, which is particularly bad for it; +Atk leaves it unable to beat Gengar and Deoxys-A after a Speed boost, while +Spe leaves it unacceptably weak (its damage output against Primal Groudon and support Arceus formes becomes very, very sad). Its horrific defenses leave it vulnerable to being picked off by priority attacks, and it has no priority of its own to fight back with unlike Deoxys-A. It is completely walled by a large amount of common Pokemon depending on the coverage move it runs; Salamence and Zygarde-C both laugh at sets without Hidden Power Ice, Giratina-O dumps on it if it lacks Shadow Claw, and Ho-Oh beats it if it doesn't have Stone Edge. Finally, Blaziken offers no defensive synergy to teams because it can't switch in on anything; other glass cannons have this problem as well, such as Deoxys-A, but they distinguish themselves through other means.

This sounds more like a Pokemon on the level of Kyurem-W or regular Kyogre to me. Like them, Blaziken can work; I don't doubt that. However, the amount of team support it requires, the absolute necessity for hazards to be up, the very limited amount of teams Blaziken can fit on (hyper offense isn't that great this generation, and I say that as someone who brings Excadrill HO eight times out of ten) and severe issues Blaziken has with a variety of common Pokemon do not convince me that Blaziken should go anywhere.
 

Lacus Clyne

Given-Taken
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C -> C+
Smeargle is in my opinion a better Sticky Web user than Shuckle. It can annoy almost everything with Nuzzle and cripple the Pokémons that try to taunt it. In addition to that has Smeargle the biggest movepool which gives it access to a variety of good moves such as Spore, Taunt and Rapid Spin. Even niche stuff like Endeavor or SmashPass could be viable. Smeargle should definitely be in C+.
 
I know this is not relevant, but can someone tell me which rank Kyogre & Groudon were during Gen 3, 4 & 5? If there is a site showing me the previous Gen Viability Ranking, I would he happy.
 
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I know this is not relevant, but can someone tell me which rank Kyogre & Groudon were during Gen 3, 4 & 5? If there is a site showing me the previous Gen Viability Ranking, I would he happy.
You can just Google "Smogon Ubers __ Viability" and it should show up, but for the sake of convenience, I'll link you.
As you can see, Kyogre was dominant in Ubers all the way until the release of ORAS, which ushered in the new king of Ubers, Primal Groudon. By the way, in the future, these kind of questions are better asked in the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread since they don't really relate to this particular thread's purpose.
 
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You can just Google "Smogon Ubers __ Viability" and it should show up, but for the sake of convenience, I'll link you.
As you can see, Kyogre was dominant in Ubers all the way until the release of ORAS, which ushered in the new king of Ubers, Primal Groudon. By the way, in the future, these kind of questions are better asked in the Simole Questions, Simple Answers thread since they don't really relate to this particular thread's purpose.
Thanks! I did search, but not sure why I didnt find it.
 
So any thoughts on Deoxys-bug AKA Phero? I believe her quiver dance set with modest/hp rock may be pretty effective with z focus blast/hyper beam/sash.

While offensively she's outclassed by a few Pokémon due to their access to priority in extremespeed, she's probably one of the strongest users of quiver dance, and can do a bit more than Genesect than just spam U-turn all game.
 
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kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Nominating Chansey to move from B to at least C

Let's just list the pros and cons for using it over Blissey

Pros:
-a little more physical bulk (but doesnt matter most of the time since it still gets 2HKOd by any physical attacker with attack investment)

Cons:
-dies to Mega Gengar

The cons just outweigh the pros. If you lose your main special wall on stall, you're going to lose the game. That little bit of extra bulk that barely even matter in the first place is not worth having such a glaring weakness.
 
-Consider me uninformed, this is literally why I'm asking and I apologize for the inconvenience-
But can someone tell me and fill me in as to why we're not supposed to speak about The Duck and The Buzz?
Are they really that OP or something?
 
-Consider me uninformed, this is literally why I'm asking and I apologize for the inconvenience-
But can someone tell me and fill me in as to why we're not supposed to speak about The Duck and The Buzz?
Are they really that OP or something?
In buzz's case, there are much better options for hazard removal such as support Arceus formes and even giratina-o, so it shouldn't have a place or be discussed in the ubers viability rankings. Golduck is known for being able to blast right through primal groudon thanks to cloud nine removing desolate land, but even that does not justify a discussion or ranking here, as it cannot switch into attacks at all in ubers and offers no legitimate role/support on serious teams. Also, welcome to the Smogon forums! :)
 

shrang

General Kenobi
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-Consider me uninformed, this is literally why I'm asking and I apologize for the inconvenience-
But can someone tell me and fill me in as to why we're not supposed to speak about The Duck and The Buzz?
Are they really that OP or something?
Both Pokemon have been brought up repeatedly in the past by people who are new to the metagame and have always started a massive argument that ends up with both being declared unviable. For the sake of not wasting everyone's time, they've been blacklisted from discussion.
 

mags

Banned deucer.
Nominating Chansey to move from B to at least C

Let's just list the pros and cons for using it over Blissey

Pros:
-a little more physical bulk (but doesnt matter most of the time since it still gets 2HKOd by any physical attacker with attack investment)

Cons:
-dies to Mega Gengar

The cons just outweigh the pros. If you lose your main special wall on stall, you're going to lose the game. That little bit of extra bulk that barely even matter in the first place is not worth having such a glaring weakness.
I think Hack made a pretty good statement that in sumo chansey is good with paired with alomuk to pursuit trap mgar while if your team lacks muk then you should go for blissey. Overall I think they are both equal when you look at the pro and cons but obviously chansey will be prefered if you can fit muk.

I'd support krau's nom to move gira a up. I've used lance stall a few times and I gotta say it's a pretty well constructed team that takes advantage of gira a>zygarde. It kinda needs gira a for defog but pressure and the mixed bulk helps the team a lot. It is a tough mon to deal with if you have the right teammates.
 
Some discussion points I find to be worth bringing up.

Gengar S to A+
Is Gengar really as good as it once was? Speed buff is great, levitate being gone sucks. The former hardly matters vs bulkier teams while the latter matters a lot vs any team really. To add to that almost every good option Gengar had has been either banned or heavily nerfed. Hypnosis being banned and Wisp being shitty in terms of damage (this applies to many situations in practice such as when trying to chip an Arceus) decreases the value of the Hex sets. Destiny Bond fails on consecutive uses, personally I think this move is almost unviable due to this. Looking at Gengar as a stand-alone, it is overall nerfed, and the external environment doesn't help either. More Arceus-Dark/Ground/Yveltal/scarf Luna introduced as a threat makes Gengar potent vs balance and offense. And then we have Alolan Muk... There are few good ways to get around this. Sub is generally an OK move but it doesn't do that much. You also cut your own health using it, making it harder to trap something afterwards. Wisp has move general utility than Sub but allows Muk to pursuit you for at least 50 %. Of course dbond can net a kill on Muk too sometimes but then you need an elaborate way of taking advantage of removing Muk. Usually that is hard. I just can't see this being an S rank mon. It is still good but just not that level.

Lucario A to A+
This seems to be the go-to choice for offensive wallbreaking and I can really see how should be moving up further. It is threatening to any playstyle. The only big issue I guess is that players are able to adapt to it pretty well, you can always run a faster Arceus, phys def Ho-oh etc.

Arceus-Water A to A-
Arceus-Water usability is tied to Primal Groudon and when Toxic becomes the standard on the aforementioned mon, things aren't looking too bright. Really, Arceus-Water's inability to deal real damage to Pdon suddenly shows as trading Toxics isn't always worth it. Also Toxic has become sorta standard on any Ho-oh, further decreasing its viability. It's not a bad mon by any means, it forms a good core with Celesteela, it is as good of a Mence check as ever, and can be tailored to check Lucario if you even want that, but it really isn't as good as it used to be for me.

Arceus-Ground A to A+
Arceus-Ground is the most versatile mon in the tier. It runs effectively 5 sets: SR, Defog, CM, SD EP, SD Z. No other mon comes close in unpredictability and fulfilling different functions. All in all this mon must be considered the "standard" Arceus by now. It is just solid, being able to hit Pdon hard, being an effective Lucario check, being SR resistant, being less awkward around Ho-oh because of the burn nerf, matching up well vs Gengar etc etc.

Arceus-Normal A+ to A
This mon kinda sucks but it the resistance to ghost and is still the one of the best Arceus-formes on HO. HO tends to suck but it is a common playstyle nevertheless and usually Ekiller tends the MVP of these teams (I'm not joking it is). It is easily checked by any balance or stall team these days, and while Sub SD is a cool tech to get around Celesteela, it is still very status prone, super weak, slower than and unable to kill Lucario etc. It just feels like Arceus-Ground must be ranked higher as it is the best Arceus forme out there.
 
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I agree with the above, and I'll throw in a personal nomination here:

Arceus-Dragon B+ to B-/C+

This mon is terrible. It doesn't fit any builds, its got mad competition with Zygarde, both Giratinas, and as a Defog Arceus it has to stack alongside Arceus-Water and Arceus-Ground. The things it checks are usually carrying Toxic, and it doesn't use Rest like Zygarde or Giratina-A to clear it. It baits in half the metgame without punishment (building for Lucario and other Steels is a nightmare with this). The lack of Ice resistance means that using this will require another Primal Kyogre check (probably Ferrothorn, this adds to the Lucario nightmare) as this can't pivot on it like Arceus-Water can. The SD set is probably a better option but why use it over another SD Arceus like Normal, Ground or Ghost? You can get much better usage out of a different Arceus and Zygarde, and a lot of balance teams do exactly that. If Arceus-Dragon is an Arceus-Water "replacement", and Arceus-Water is worse, this has to follow it, and I'd probably see it drop to C+ preferably.

I think Landorus should definitely come out of D to some area as well. I agree with Giratina-A moving up. Celesteela could potentially go A- if there's enough agreement but I won't chase that very hard.
 

mags

Banned deucer.
Mega Gyarados C+ to B

With all of the stall teams running around I think this mon deserves to be a little bit higher. With mold breaker along with taunt/dd it's a very capable stall/balance breaker. Vs offense it has intimidate pre mega so it's not complete deadweight. It does have some oppurtunity cost being a mega and compared to mega lucario it looks outclassed. However it is better at breaking most teams and it usually fits onto balance squads that need a way to deal with stall while mega lucario fits onto more offensive teams.
 
Some discussion points I find to be worth bringing up.

Gengar S to A+
Is Gengar really as good as it once was? Speed buff is great, levitate being gone sucks. The former hardly matters vs bulkier teams while the latter matters a lot vs any team really. To add to that almost every good option Gengar had has been either banned or heavily nerfed. Hypnosis being banned and Wisp being shitty in terms of damage (this applies to many situations in practice such as when trying to chip an Arceus) decreases the value of the Hex sets. Destiny Bond fails on consecutive uses, personally I think this move is almost unviable due to this. Looking at Gengar as a stand-alone, it is overall nerfed, and the external environment doesn't help either. More Arceus-Dark/Ground/Yveltal/scarf Luna introduced as a threat makes Gengar potent vs balance and offense. And then we have Alolan Muk... There are few good ways to get around this. Sub is generally an OK move but it doesn't do that much. You also cut your own health using it, making it harder to trap something afterwards. Wisp has move general utility than Sub but allows Muk to pursuit you for at least 50 %. Of course dbond+switch kills Muk too but then you need an elaborate way of taking advantage of removing Muk. Usually that is hard. I just can't see this being an S rank mon. It is still good but just not that level.

Lucario A to A+
This seems to be the go-to choice for offensive wallbreaking and I can really see how should be moving up further. It is threatening to any playstyle. The only big issue I guess is that players are able to adapt to it pretty well, you can always run a faster Arceus, phys def Ho-oh etc.

Arceus-Water A to A-
Arceus-Water usability is tied to Primal Groudon and when Toxic becomes the standard on the aforementioned mon, things aren't looking too bright. Really, Arceus-Water's inability to deal real damage to Pdon suddenly shows as trading Toxics isn't always worth it. Also Toxic has become sorta standard on any Ho-oh, further decreasing its viability. It's not a bad mon by any means, it forms a good core with Celesteela, it is as good of a Mence check as ever, and can be tailored to check Lucario if you even want that, but it really isn't as good as it used to be for me.

Arceus-Ground A to A+
Arceus-Ground is the most versatile mon in the tier. It runs effectively 5 sets: SR, Defog, CM, SD EP, SD Z. No other mon comes close in unpredictability and fulfilling different functions. All in all this mon must be considered the "standard" Arceus by now. It is just solid, being able to hit Pdon hard, being an effective Lucario check, being SR resistant, being less awkward around Ho-oh because of the burn nerf, matching up well vs Gengar etc etc.

Arceus-Normal A+ to A
This mon kinda sucks but it the resistance to ghost and is still the one of the best Arceus-formes on HO. HO tends to suck but it is a common playstyle nevertheless and usually Ekiller tends the MVP of these teams (I'm not joking it is). It is easily checked by any balance or stall team these days, and while Sub SD is a cool tech to get around Celesteela, it is still very status prone, super weak, slower than and unable to kill Lucario etc. It just feels like Arceus-Ground must be ranked higher as it is the best Arceus forme out there.
response to this line: "Of course dbond+switch kills Muk too but then you need an elaborate way of taking advantage of removing Muk." dbond + switch doesn't kill Muk
 

NEWAL

THE MAIN MAN
Some discussion points I find to be worth bringing up.

Gengar S to A+
Is Gengar really as good as it once was? Speed buff is great, levitate being gone sucks. The former hardly matters vs bulkier teams while the latter matters a lot vs any team really. To add to that almost every good option Gengar had has been either banned or heavily nerfed. Hypnosis being banned and Wisp being shitty in terms of damage (this applies to many situations in practice such as when trying to chip an Arceus) decreases the value of the Hex sets. Destiny Bond fails on consecutive uses, personally I think this move is almost unviable due to this. Looking at Gengar as a stand-alone, it is overall nerfed, and the external environment doesn't help either. More Arceus-Dark/Ground/Yveltal/scarf Luna introduced as a threat makes Gengar potent vs balance and offense. And then we have Alolan Muk... There are few good ways to get around this. Sub is generally an OK move but it doesn't do that much. You also cut your own health using it, making it harder to trap something afterwards. Wisp has move general utility than Sub but allows Muk to pursuit you for at least 50 %. Of course dbond can net a kill on Muk too sometimes but then you need an elaborate way of taking advantage of removing Muk. Usually that is hard. I just can't see this being an S rank mon. It is still good but just not that level.

Lucario A to A+
This seems to be the go-to choice for offensive wallbreaking and I can really see how should be moving up further. It is threatening to any playstyle. The only big issue I guess is that players are able to adapt to it pretty well, you can always run a faster Arceus, phys def Ho-oh etc.

Arceus-Water A to A-
Arceus-Water usability is tied to Primal Groudon and when Toxic becomes the standard on the aforementioned mon, things aren't looking too bright. Really, Arceus-Water's inability to deal real damage to Pdon suddenly shows as trading Toxics isn't always worth it. Also Toxic has become sorta standard on any Ho-oh, further decreasing its viability. It's not a bad mon by any means, it forms a good core with Celesteela, it is as good of a Mence check as ever, and can be tailored to check Lucario if you even want that, but it really isn't as good as it used to be for me.

Arceus-Ground A to A+
Arceus-Ground is the most versatile mon in the tier. It runs effectively 5 sets: SR, Defog, CM, SD EP, SD Z. No other mon comes close in unpredictability and fulfilling different functions. All in all this mon must be considered the "standard" Arceus by now. It is just solid, being able to hit Pdon hard, being an effective Lucario check, being SR resistant, being less awkward around Ho-oh because of the burn nerf, matching up well vs Gengar etc etc.

Arceus-Normal A+ to A
This mon kinda sucks but it the resistance to ghost and is still the one of the best Arceus-formes on HO. HO tends to suck but it is a common playstyle nevertheless and usually Ekiller tends the MVP of these teams (I'm not joking it is). It is easily checked by any balance or stall team these days, and while Sub SD is a cool tech to get around Celesteela, it is still very status prone, super weak, slower than and unable to kill Lucario etc. It just feels like Arceus-Ground must be ranked higher as it is the best Arceus forme out there.
I agree with all above, MGengar has suffered a great deterioration and he is not S Rank material since Burn and Destiny Bond was nerfed and Alolan Muk exists.
Arceus-Water does not fulfill its function as it should imo (PDon and Ho-oh are adapted to him and have ways to lower it, although it controls well MMence and has defog, but A seems to high for him).
Arceus-Ground has the ability to use defog or sr receiving little damage from these. I also see SD Z like a threat and I appreciate his ability to check huge threat of the tiers as well.
And yeah all changes should be made imo.
 
Some discussion points I find to be worth bringing up.

Gengar S to A+
Is Gengar really as good as it once was? Speed buff is great, levitate being gone sucks. The former hardly matters vs bulkier teams while the latter matters a lot vs any team really. To add to that almost every good option Gengar had has been either banned or heavily nerfed. Hypnosis being banned and Wisp being shitty in terms of damage (this applies to many situations in practice such as when trying to chip an Arceus) decreases the value of the Hex sets. Destiny Bond fails on consecutive uses, personally I think this move is almost unviable due to this. Looking at Gengar as a stand-alone, it is overall nerfed, and the external environment doesn't help either. More Arceus-Dark/Ground/Yveltal/scarf Luna introduced as a threat makes Gengar potent vs balance and offense. And then we have Alolan Muk... There are few good ways to get around this. Sub is generally an OK move but it doesn't do that much. You also cut your own health using it, making it harder to trap something afterwards. Wisp has move general utility than Sub but allows Muk to pursuit you for at least 50 %. Of course dbond can net a kill on Muk too sometimes but then you need an elaborate way of taking advantage of removing Muk. Usually that is hard. I just can't see this being an S rank mon. It is still good but just not that level.


I think it's kinda a disgrace that he is still remaining S since this long, The new Muk toy who have high odd to be run on stall doesnt help him.
Jack of all trades, master of none.

Lucario A to A+
This seems to be the go-to choice for offensive wallbreaking and I can really see how should be moving up further. It is threatening to any playstyle. The only big issue I guess is that players are able to adapt to it pretty well, you can always run a faster Arceus, phys def Ho-oh etc.

Arceus-Water A to A-
Arceus-Water usability is tied to Primal Groudon and when Toxic becomes the standard on the aforementioned mon, things aren't looking too bright. Really, Arceus-Water's inability to deal real damage to Pdon suddenly shows as trading Toxics isn't always worth it. Also Toxic has become sorta standard on any Ho-oh, further decreasing its viability. It's not a bad mon by any means, it forms a good core with Celesteela, it is as good of a Mence check as ever, and can be tailored to check Lucario if you even want that, but it really isn't as good as it used to be for me.

Arceus-Ground A to A+
Arceus-Ground is the most versatile mon in the tier. It runs effectively 5 sets: SR, Defog, CM, SD EP, SD Z. No other mon comes close in unpredictability and fulfilling different functions. All in all this mon must be considered the "standard" Arceus by now. It is just solid, being able to hit Pdon hard, being an effective Lucario check, being SR resistant, being less awkward around Ho-oh because of the burn nerf, matching up well vs Gengar etc etc.

Arceus-Normal A+ to A
This mon kinda sucks but it the resistance to ghost and is still the one of the best Arceus-formes on HO. HO tends to suck but it is a common playstyle nevertheless and usually Ekiller tends the MVP of these teams (I'm not joking it is). It is easily checked by any balance or stall team these days, and while Sub SD is a cool tech to get around Celesteela, it is still very status prone, super weak, slower than and unable to kill Lucario etc. It just feels like Arceus-Ground must be ranked higher as it is the best Arceus forme out there.
M-Gar: I think it's kinda a disgrace that he is still remaining S since this long.
Jack of all trades, master of none.

Luke:
He gained alot with the mega boost but carefull forgot to put fire celestella under the trend threat that beat luke, he is still frail.

I agree with the above, and I'll throw in a personal nomination here:

Arceus-Dragon B+ to B-/C+

This mon is terrible. It doesn't fit any builds, its got mad competition with Zygarde, both Giratinas, and as a Defog Arceus it has to stack alongside Arceus-Water and Arceus-Ground. The things it checks are usually carrying Toxic, and it doesn't use Rest like Zygarde or Giratina-A to clear it. It baits in half the metgame without punishment (building for Lucario and other Steels is a nightmare with this). The lack of Ice resistance means that using this will require another Primal Kyogre check (probably Ferrothorn, this adds to the Lucario nightmare) as this can't pivot on it like Arceus-Water can. The SD set is probably a better option but why use it over another SD Arceus like Normal, Ground or Ghost? You can get much better usage out of a different Arceus and Zygarde, and a lot of balance teams do exactly that. If Arceus-Dragon is an Arceus-Water "replacement", and Arceus-Water is worse, this has to follow it, and I'd probably see it drop to C+ preferably.

I think Landorus should definitely come out of D to some area as well. I agree with Giratina-A moving up. Celesteela could potentially go A- if there's enough agreement but I won't chase that very hard.
Arceus-dragon is simply a worst version of arceus ground/water (the deffog version)
On the offensive side i m pretty sure even SD fly-ceus is better than this.

Nayrz What you have in mind to make landorus workin or what he need to get more popular/ obtain good result if you don't mind sharin your thoughts.

Mega Gyarados C+ to B

With all of the stall teams running around I think this mon deserves to be a little bit higher. With mold breaker along with taunt/dd it's a very capable stall/balance breaker. Vs offense it has intimidate pre mega so it's not complete deadweight. It does have some oppurtunity cost being a mega and compared to mega lucario it looks outclassed. However it is better at breaking most teams and it usually fits onto balance squads that need a way to deal with stall while mega lucario fits onto more offensive teams.
I remember watching 2 very good battler fighting one was stall other had gyra balance people was screaming loud ct/match up'd at my point of view it was far from that.
Mgyarados is not that much easy to execute, you have to understand/know on what u can/should mega or not, when you can setup what you need to cheap damage before going IN the place and he is going down fast against phazer (dt/whirlwind/roar)
 
I might have asked this before but I think a lot has changed since then.

How is Zekrom B rank? I thought Primal Don and Xerneas being everywhere would put him out of his misery but he's still way higher than expected. Is Bolt Strike still that good?
 
Mega Gyarados C+ to B

With all of the stall teams running around I think this mon deserves to be a little bit higher. With mold breaker along with taunt/dd it's a very capable stall/balance breaker. Vs offense it has intimidate pre mega so it's not complete deadweight. It does have some oppurtunity cost being a mega and compared to mega lucario it looks outclassed. However it is better at breaking most teams and it usually fits onto balance squads that need a way to deal with stall while mega lucario fits onto more offensive teams.
I do agree, Gyara is one of the more consistent stallbreakers in the tier. It matches up well vs any non-Pdon stall, as you now sadly need Waterfall > EQ to hit stuff like phys def Ho-oh with. Magearna stalls can also do decently vs Gyarados but I consider them pretty unviable.

I agree with the above, and I'll throw in a personal nomination here:

Arceus-Dragon B+ to B-/C+

This mon is terrible. It doesn't fit any builds, its got mad competition with Zygarde, both Giratinas, and as a Defog Arceus it has to stack alongside Arceus-Water and Arceus-Ground. The things it checks are usually carrying Toxic, and it doesn't use Rest like Zygarde or Giratina-A to clear it. It baits in half the metgame without punishment (building for Lucario and other Steels is a nightmare with this). The lack of Ice resistance means that using this will require another Primal Kyogre check (probably Ferrothorn, this adds to the Lucario nightmare) as this can't pivot on it like Arceus-Water can. The SD set is probably a better option but why use it over another SD Arceus like Normal, Ground or Ghost? You can get much better usage out of a different Arceus and Zygarde, and a lot of balance teams do exactly that. If Arceus-Dragon is an Arceus-Water "replacement", and Arceus-Water is worse, this has to follow it, and I'd probably see it drop to C+ preferably.

I think Landorus should definitely come out of D to some area as well. I agree with Giratina-A moving up. Celesteela could potentially go A- if there's enough agreement but I won't chase that very hard.
I think I disagree with the Arceus-Dragon nom. If anything I find Arceus-Dragon better than Water in the current metagame. This is because Arceus-Dragon can actually hurt Pdon pretty decently with STAB. Arceus-Water does not find room for a STAB to hit stuff like Lucario with if you want to run Ice Beam for checking Salamence. Arceus-Water does indeed perform better as a Lucario check by running a faster spread and Judgment (not Fire Blast, it is not very suitable on faster Arceus-Water) and has better synergy with a number of things, but as a Defoger I feel Arceus-Dragon tends to match up better vs Pdon especially.

I don't see what Lando-I does that makes it viable on serious teams.
 
I agree with the above, and I'll throw in a personal nomination here:

Arceus-Dragon B+ to B-/C+

This mon is terrible. It doesn't fit any builds, its got mad competition with Zygarde, both Giratinas, and as a Defog Arceus it has to stack alongside Arceus-Water and Arceus-Ground. The things it checks are usually carrying Toxic, and it doesn't use Rest like Zygarde or Giratina-A to clear it. It baits in half the metgame without punishment (building for Lucario and other Steels is a nightmare with this). The lack of Ice resistance means that using this will require another Primal Kyogre check (probably Ferrothorn, this adds to the Lucario nightmare) as this can't pivot on it like Arceus-Water can. The SD set is probably a better option but why use it over another SD Arceus like Normal, Ground or Ghost? You can get much better usage out of a different Arceus and Zygarde, and a lot of balance teams do exactly that. If Arceus-Dragon is an Arceus-Water "replacement", and Arceus-Water is worse, this has to follow it, and I'd probably see it drop to C+ preferably.

I think Landorus should definitely come out of D to some area as well. I agree with Giratina-A moving up. Celesteela could potentially go A- if there's enough agreement but I won't chase that very hard.
To add to what Hack mentioned, the main draw of using Dragonceus is the pressure it puts on the most common rocker Pdon which is particularly beneficial to Ho-Oh balance teams. Imo, these are the main types of builds that benefit most from Dragonceus' role compression (soft Sala/Ray check, excellent Ho-Oh switch in, can holds its own against yvetal). Furthermore, having Ho-Oh means you will inherently have an ok Mega luke and Xernas check and a very good way to punish Magearna via double switches. Dragonceus, Ferro and Ho-Oh form a pretty good core.

Not going to defend the SD set because it's outclassed 100% by Ghostceus and probably should have only gotten an OO mention.
 
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Here is that post-SPL update, and its a decently sized one as everything between the last update and this one was looked over. As a reminder, every nom goes past our VR council and is voted on before being changed. Future updates will likely follow in around 3-4 week periods unless little has been discussed and everyone is somehow fine with the rankings. This update also lines up well, as we have now finished our skeleton stage in C&C, meaning that every Pokemon on the rankings will have a link to its dex entry! This also means that future nominations that are not featured at all on the rankings are now subject to having to pass the C&C process before being placed.

Update List:

Arceus-Dragon: B+ > B
(above Tapu Lele)
Arceus-Ground: A > A+ (below Mega Salamence)
Arceus-Normal: A+ > A (Top of A)
Arceus-Water: A > A- (Top of A-)
Celesteela: B+ > A- (above Arceus-Ghost)
Giratina: C+ > B- (above Toxapex)
Klefki: B > B- (above Buzzwole)
Landorus-I: D > C+ (bottom of C+)
Mega Gyarados: C+ > B- (above Clefable)
Mega Lucario: A > A+ (bottom of A+)
Mega Mewtwo X: Unranked > B- (above Mewtwo)
Mega Mewtwo Y: Unranked > B (top of B)
Smeargle: C > C+ (above Wobbuffet)

Ho-Oh (A > A-), Deoxys-S (B+ > B), and Mega Gengar's (S > A+) nominations did not pass the council voting process, with Mega Gengar barely avoiding its drop via vote. That's it for this update!
 
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keys

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Time for my monthly nominations:

Arceus Ghost: A- to bottom of A

Pretty much the prime offensive Arceus not named Arceus Normal. It can be somewhat versatile with special or more defensive sets, but the real powerhouse set is it's SD Ghostium Z set. Compared to other formes above, I'd say it's a lot better than Arceus-Water at the moment and either better or at least on par with Arceus Dark. This Pokemon's breaking ability in SM is absurd, without physdef Yveltal running around and with ghost resists being the aforementioned Yveltal (offensive can't reliably check it) and other things like Muk or Tyranitar. Its absolutely unreal how much this Pokemon can do for offensive teams that are either E-killer weak or need an offensive spin blocker, it offers defensive synergy for offense while also being able to put enormous offensive pressure on opposing cores, breaking down pretty much everything with it's standard set (usually a toss up between espeed/shadow claw/recover or even stone edge for that last 4th slot).

That ability to be such a huge offensive threat, provide quality defensive synergy for an offensive Arceus forme, support the team with spin blocking as well as either provide some form of priority (if need be) or patch up another weakness your team may have (with the corresponding 4th move) is the main reason why I'd rank this Pokemon in A rather than A-.

Mega Sableye: B+ to bottom of A-

I honestly cannot understand why this Pokemon, as well as Lugia, aren't ranked higher than they are right now. Mega Sableye is such a huge tool for bulkier teams, ranging from fatter balances to full blown stall, the magic bouncing ghost offers not only a rock solid defensive check to a plethora of scary Pokemon in the Ubers tier, but it is also able to bounce back field moves, ranging from status moves that might irritate teams to hazards as well as provide a solid backbone against common threats and even offer support with it's spin blocking capabilities (fatter teams often work better with the pile up of their own hazards). I just don't understand how it finds itself currently behind Pokemon such as Dialga and Rayquaza, pretty much compressing unto itself so many valuable assets necessary for bulkier teams.

Lugia: B+ to bottom of A- (right behind the incoming Sableye if both are done)

As much as I think it is slightly worse than Mega Sableye at the moment, I really don't get how Lugia can be in B+ either. Checks pretty much almost every scary physical attacker in the tier while being a solid status spreader and backup check to a lot of things that might get out of hand. As much as rocks weakness is annoying and psychic type is defensively crippling, Lugia's potential with clerics (which its teams almost always have) is unmatched by any Pokemon in this tier. It's ability to shuffle around enemy teams with hazards up and just completely take control of games is astounding, especially considering that the ways of beating it are usually pretty easily covered by common stall characters, meaning that the Pokemon that already find themselves providing quality synergy with Lugia are effectively capable of covering it's few weaknesses. There's just absolutely no way this physical sponge and defensive behemoth isn't better than Pokemon like Dialga, Rayquaza and Excadrill, all of which sit above it for some reason.

Didn't elaborate much since it was merely meant to be a discussion sparker.
 
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Freeroamer

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Your nominations tell me what I already knew about the Pokemon, apart from arceus ghost a little you don't really tell me how they've improved recently. There was a discussion and justification to put those Pokémon in the current place when they were placed there, so what's improved for them to go up to the ranks you're suggesting?
 
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