Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Alright, I'll throw in my opinion:
Garchomp: A to A-
Don't get me wrong, Garchomp is still a good pokemon, but it hasn't adapted to the meta trends too well lately. Magearna becoming more popular results in it being killed by a fairy move if it can't kill it fast enough with earthquake, Lando-T overshadows him a lot as well, as it is the best ground type and arguably best pokemon in OU, being even more popular than ever. He also really can't damage popular defensive pokemon enough to be effective like AV Tangrowth, Celesteela, and Skarmory most of the time either. Also, the addition of the Tapus did not really help it either, especially with Tapu bulu rising in popularity. You can run poison jab to deal with the Tapus better, but it struggles to do much to them without it, forcing it to run poison jab over a more valuable coverage move, unless he wants to lose to the Tapus. Not only does it have to fight over a slot in a team against Lando-T, it also has the competition of Zygarde, who has Dragon dance and an extremely spammable move in Thousand arrows. It also struggles with common threats like protean greninja with ice beam, and scarf tapu lele. It can still be an great pokemon on a team that can justify it use properly, but it just doesn't seem as good as it once was. Last generation Zygarde was seen as an inferior garchomp, but now, i feel it's the other way around now.
While I agree that Chomp might feel a little bit outclassed by Zyg just because the latter can just spam 1k Arrows, I would like to nitpick a few things...
* P-Jab is a really bad coverage move for Chomp... while it does hit tapus and other fairies super effectively (and Tangrowth, sure), just STAB neutral EQ does almost the same damage to both Fini and Lele, only being inferior against Bulu, which should still receive around 60% from LO Fire Fang (and such move will help against Skarm and Steela). And LO Outrage will 2HKO AV Growth most of the time...
* They do not compete as much as u might think for a slot in the team. Actually Zyg and Chomp usually do different things. Chomp is more of a scarfer/offensive fast rocker, while Zyg is usually going with DD or bulky coil sets. They do share a typing and their weaknesses, but besides that I feel they are different.
* Shift Gear Mage has a high chance of being OHKOed by Scarf Chomp, and AV is gonna be OHKOed every single time by a somewhat boosted EQ (LO, Band, even Soft Sand if something like that would be used), so, Magearna rising doesn't affect that much Chomp's viability since that matchup is shaky at best for both of them.

So, I personally think that Chomp should stay A...
See ya
 
B+ -> A-

I want to shift the attention to Tapu Fini because I think it is one of the current hidden gems this meta with its Calm Mind Set.

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Taunt

This Set is dangerous because common switch-ins to Defog Tapu Fini like AV Tang, AV Tornadus-T, Toxapex and Zapdos just get CMed on and lose 1v1 to this Set. Even Amoonguss is not safe because people enjoy using Toxic or even Stun Spore over Clear Smog in SM (since Serperior is very uncommon, CM Clef is not used and Mega Altaria is not available).

The defensive utility of Tapu Fini can also not be underestimated. It is still without a doubt the most reliable Specs Gren switch-in and with its ability it offers great support for its teammates. An example is DD Mega Tyranitar without Crunch. Usually you have to remove Mew first but with the Terrain you can use Mew and many other bulky Wispers and Scalders as setup target.

This kind of support for the team (Specs Gren switch, Misty Terrain), its abiliy to muscle through some common switch-ins to its Defog Set (also potentially sweep teams) and the solid Matchup against Stall combined should not be taken lightly and deserves A-.

This replay shows how well Tapu Fini can support an offensive team. Not with the exploitable Defog, but just with CM, Taunt and Misty Terrain.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-591245124
 

Finchinator

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B+ -> A-

I want to shift the attention to Tapu Fini


because I think it is one of the current hidden gems this meta with its Calm Mind Set.

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Taunt

This Set is dangerous because common switch-ins to Defog Tapu Fini like AV Tang, AV Tornadus-T, Toxapex and Zapdos just get CMed on and lose 1v1 to this Set. Even Amoonguss is not safe because people enjoy using Toxic or even Stun Spore over Clear Smog in SM (since Serperior is very uncommon, CM Clef is not used and Mega Altaria is not available).

The defensive utility of Tapu Fini can also not be underestimated. It is still without a doubt the most reliable Specs Gren switch-in and with its ability it offers great support for its teammates. An example is DD Mega Tyranitar without Crunch. Usually you have to remove Mew first but with the Terrain you can use Mew and many other bulky Wispers and Scalders as setup target.

This kind of support for the team (Specs Gren switch, Misty Terrain), its abiliy to muscle through some common switch-ins to its Defog Set (also potentially sweep teams) and the solid Matchup against Stall combined should not be taken lightly and deserves A-.

This replay shows how well Tapu Fini can support an offensive team. Not with the exploitable Defog, but just with CM, Taunt and Misty Terrain.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-591245124
While I do think that Tapu Fini is a bit more of a consistent threat and simply better presence with Calm Mind, I do not think that this threat has nearly as much going for it as you claim because you neglect to mention that, if you're using Tapu Fini, then odds are you also need it to consistently check opposing Keldeo, Ash Greninja, etc. and there is some serious role compression here that usually overwhelms it to the extent that sweeping or even 1v1'ing like you mentioned in the first paragraph seems highly unlikely in a practical scenario due to lack of recovery, lack of it having the ability to remove hazards, and lack of immediate offensive presence due to the lack of Nature's Madness and strong Special Attack. To add onto this, the metagame has been quite unkind to Tapu Fini over the past few months, seeing a large drop in usage (and comparable drop in overall viability) since earlier this year and I see no change in the metagame to truly help Tapu Fini's viability and I do not think this set is particularly new, nor groundbreaking, leading me to believe that a change in ranking would be very unnecessary at this point in time.

I do recognize the various defensive and supportive merits of Tapu Fini, as you correctly outline throughout your post, but I think that in a tier where you're asking for it to be a win condition and a check to numerous things while lacking Defog, meaning you need to build in a certain way with it or have another Defogger from the already limited pool, makes this set not too strong of an overall argument for Tapu Fini to rise to A- and I think that it should stay as is.
 

Gary

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RANKING UPDATE

Rises
A ---> A+
B+ ---> A-
B- ---> B
C- ---> C
Added to C-


Drops
B- ---> C+
C+ ---> C-
C+ ---> Unranked
C ---> Unranked


  • Heatran has been seeing quite a bit of surge in popularity recently, thanks to the success of its SubToxic set, which can be extremely difficult to play around given the massive amount of damage in can wrack up in a short amount of time. Being able to Sub up on Pokemon such as Magearna, Celesteela, and Ferrothorn forces the oncoming check to get hit with Toxic, which heavily limits their effectiveness as the match goes on. Its ability to check dangerous threats such as Tapu Bulu, Magearna, Celesteela, Mew, choiced Lele, and Mega Mawile is very nice for many teams. The Sub set also lets it annoy stall teams far more effectively without having to worry nearly as much about being trapped by Dugtrio as long as it's behind a Sub. While Heatran has always been a pretty consistent Pokemon this gen, it's becoming more and more splashable due to recent meta trends and the massive amount of utility it can provide with its many sets, not just SubToxic.
  • Mega Tyranitar has quickly shown its effectiveness as a sweeper. Its insane bulk and power help make up for its subpar Speed stat even after a DD, because of how hard it is to revenge kill. Its bulk also lets it keep Pokemon such as Volcarona and Zapdos in check, and potentially even use them as set up fodder. There's not much else to say about this really, as I covered a lot of its strengths in the last update, and we feel that A- is a more appropriate rank for it than B+ atm.
  • Mega Slowbro is a rarer sight in the metagame, but it is quite effective. Its massive physical bulk lets it blanket check a large majority of the physical side of the tier, such as Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, Zygarde, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Mega T-tar, and Mega Swampert. Currently its most effective set is 3 attacks Slack Off, as it is able to fully abuse its durability, coverage, and good SpA stat. Early game it is usually played like a regular Slowbro so it can keep things in check without relying as much on Slack Off while also fishing for burns, but its Mega evolution is always there for better assurance vs set up sweepers such as DD Zygarde and Mega T-tar, or powerful breakers such as Mega Mawile and SD Landorus-T.
  • Cresselia was raised to C rank because it's basically standard on TR teams, and we felt that because of this, putting it in C- devalued Trick Room's overall effectiveness. While it is no means a top tier strategy, it doesn't make sense to put TR's best supporter in C- with super niche trash. Uxie was ranked for a similar reason, but it's not 100% standard on TR, and it is interchangeable between other Pokemon like Bronzong.
  • Gliscor is a digimon, not a Pokemon
  • Bronzong's main niche was role compression during the Mega Metagross meta, but since then, it's fallen way out of favor, and is left with a very small niche in checking Lele and non Smack Down variants of Landorus-T. It's also used on some Trick Room teams as a bulky rocker with momentum Explosion.
  • Zygarde 10% was primarily kept in the rankings because of its ability to outspeed Mega Metagross, which gave it a clear-cut, albeit very small, niche over Zygarde. Now, however, its extra Speed tier is no where near as useful as it once was, and forfeiting Zygarde's insane bulk for extra Speed that doesn't really do much for it, is nearly pointless. Its opportunity cost is way too big to be considered over Zygarde itself, especially considering how good it is.
  • Tentacruel was ranked during the Pheromosa meta as a defensive spinner that kept it in check as well as Greninja, but now with Greninja's running Extrasensory a lot more as well as Mosa being, well, banned, there's no reason to keep it ranked anymore.

Discussion Points:

A+ ---> A
B ---> B-

Sorry boys that's all we got this time :/
 
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While I do think that Tapu Fini is a bit more of a consistent threat and simply better presence with Calm Mind, I do not think that this threat has nearly as much going for it as you claim because you neglect to mention that, if you're using Tapu Fini, then odds are you also need it to consistently check opposing Keldeo, Ash Greninja, etc. and there is some serious role compression here that usually overwhelms it to the extent that sweeping or even 1v1'ing like you mentioned in the first paragraph seems highly unlikely in a practical scenario due to lack of recovery, lack of it having the ability to remove hazards, and lack of immediate offensive presence due to the lack of Nature's Madness and strong Special Attack. To add onto this, the metagame has been quite unkind to Tapu Fini over the past few months, seeing a large drop in usage (and comparable drop in overall viability) since earlier this year and I see no change in the metagame to truly help Tapu Fini's viability and I do not think this set is particularly new, nor groundbreaking, leading me to believe that a change in ranking would be very unnecessary at this point in time.

I do recognize the various defensive and supportive merits of Tapu Fini, as you correctly outline throughout your post, but I think that in a tier where you're asking for it to be a win condition and a check to numerous things while lacking Defog, meaning you need to build in a certain way with it or have another Defogger from the already limited pool, makes this set not too strong of an overall argument for Tapu Fini to rise to A- and I think that it should stay as is.
Hey, thanks for answering this, I appreciate that.

You wrote that taking care Keldeo and Specs Gren is that much of a role compression, so that Tapu Fini will be usually overwhelmed which hurts it in the job of sweeping with CM in reality. The thing is, the sheer presence of Tapu Fini in your team discourages Scarf Keldeo/Specs Gren clicking their Stab attacks and they might make a double, unless they have a consistent Tapu Fini switch-in like AV Tang or Toxapex. You can abuse that mindset of your opponent, who thought it is safe to Secret Sword Tapu Fini on the switch (which by the way does 12% damage after two Leftovers recovery) because they can always reliably go to AV Tang to sponge Natures Madness, Moonblast etc.. That is when CM comes into play which, given the right moment, can sweep because you are guaranteed to have two or even more CM boosts against AV Tangs, Toxapex etc..

Not much has changed for CM Tapu Fini but I always thought it was a bit too low in the rankings. My intuition told me, people associate Tapu Fini only as a Defogger which I consider to be the worse Set. CM Fini is still rarely found on teams because MZor and especially Mew are more consistent Defoggers.

If my words were not able to convince you or the ranking team, I invite you to watch one more replay. If you still think, that Tapu Fini is a mon that is in fact comparable to other B+ threats like Terrakion and Weavile over A- threats like Clefable and Tyranitar, I have no more arguments:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-590708074

I start CMing turn 11 and AV Magearna, AV Tang, defensive Landot, Scarf Keldeo and Specs Gren couldnt do anything. Obviously, this was a good Matchup but CM Fini can consistently setup on other mons like Defog Mew, Heatran etc. (just look at viability rankings) and use that Spdef boost to prevent mons like Lele, Mzam or even Kokofrom revengekilling you. The speed is obviously amazing, because you outspeed some physical attackers like Adamant Landot, Adamant Zygarde and neutral Kyurem-B.
 
I saw that Zard-X dropping to B- was a discussion point, and personally i am for this drop. Charizard-X has fallen from grace since oras, and cannot do much in this meta. It has a niche as a dragon dancer, but so does Mega tyranitar, who has much better defenses and a considerably higher attack stat and a great ability. It also can't touch any of the Tapus or any fairies really with it dragon attacks, and can easily be handled by sash dugtrio, greninja, tapu lele, mega tyranitar, etc. It's kind of a mess at the moment, and many of the top threats can handle it without much trouble, like Lando-T, Mega pinsir, Greninja and several priority users
 

Avant Heim

formerly The Bill Cipher
Volcarona down to A rank---->agree

While i agree that Volcarona is a potent sweeper under the right condicions(quilver dance is in my opinion the best setup move,but that's just me),it request's way too much support to funcion. Hazard removel needs to be omnipresent in Volcarona based teams and it needs the likes of Chansey,Heatran,Toxapex and many others gone.
The rise of Mega TTar also hurts volca because of this:
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 1108-1308 (356.2 - 420.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


One thing that's good to mension is Volcarona's difficulty to pass trough pokémon that resist it's dual stab(Gyarados,Zygarde and Mantine) and Scarfers(Nihilego,Keldeo,Terrakion and Garchomp)
And then there is rain. Rain's recent rise in usage hurts volca too,the two most common mons in rain(Pelipper and Mega Swamp) defeat Volcarona
 
A couple thoughts on the discussion points and then my own nomination:

Volcarona A+ -->A: Agree

When Volc moved up to A+ it was for sure deserved but since then it has gotten worse and worse and it actually doesn't put nearly as much of a strain on building as it did before. Mega Tar introduction and increased Pinsir and Mantine usage make it easier to check.

Charizard-X B --> B-: Disagree

Charizard is not a good pokemon right now, i will start with that. That being said I think B- is a little too harsh. For one there is slightly less of a reliance on 100+ speed scarfers as I kind of mentioned before since other ways to check Volc are become more popular making a +1 Zard scary to a lot of builds. Also, probably the most common defensive core right now (Mew and Tang) gets destroyed by Zard so I think B is a fine place for it.

My own nomination:

Tapu Bulu A --> A+

It's funny how much one pokemon can shape the metagame; when Gross was around this thing was complete trash. Since then, Bulu has gotten better and better and is currently one of the best breakers in the tier. The increased popularity in Grass-Z and Rock-Z sets has made the number of safe switch-ins to Bulu pretty much zero. +2 Bloom Doom kills literally everything except for 4x resists like Venu, Amoongus, Sciz, Skarm, Steela, Ferro, and Tran. The problem is none of these mons are actually safe switch ins with hazards up because of the other Z-crystals/coverage Bulu can carry.

In addition, while not super bulky Bulu is able to pivot in at least once to some of the most common offensive threats in the meta like Ash-Gren, Zygarde, and Tapu Koko meaning it doesn't have to be brought in on doubles or volt turn to break effectively unlike a lot of the other hard hitters in tier. When it's in, Bulu is able to take advantage of a lot of the common defensive cores seen right now (like Mew + Tang, Lando + Tang, Lando + AV Gear etc) and for these reasons I think it puts itself a step above the rest of the mons currently in A rank.
 
Volc A+->A agree
Volc is honestly still a top threat that being said the only thing that lowers it rank is all the support it needs and moves really depends on the support. A+ Is a rank where I feel mons are staples and can be easily thrown on. Volc requires a lot of support for it to put holes on teams or sweep.

Char x B->B- agree
Rip char x once S and now a dead ass B. Anyway I heavily agree. the meta is so heavily against it with scarf chomp,lando, and scarf mons, and the mega slot too. Char y does a better job breaking too. Plus I feel it has to run 3 attack with no dragon stab to put work. Flare,t punch,eq. If you run the old oras set it's completely wall by fini. Overall so many things stop it.
 
I can understand the sentiment that maybe Volcarona isn't as consistent or self sufficient as some other A+ mons, but there are more factors to consider, and Defog isn't really too large of a support burden considering most teams have it anyway. Most notably, the way in which it defines/restricts the metagame is sometimes even larger than that of other A+ mons. Unless someone has like a Mantine or Chansey they run a base 100+ scarfer that can ohko Volcarona because of how offensively devastating it is. It has like 3 possible z moves in addition to charti berry and coverage including fire blast, bug buzz, giga drain, psychic, hp ice, hp ground, and so forth. It also is fairly useful from a checking standpoint, helping vs mons like Mawile and Bulu and also abusing the prevalence of Mew/Tang.

Lastly, I think Volcarona adapts to the metagame more than the metagame adapts to it. It started out using firium just because it could, packing hpice for the then omnipresent scarf Chomp and spdef Zygarde. Then Toxapex was spammed due to Pheromosa but also Volc itself, and thus psych-z became a set. People started using other scarfers like Keldeo with stone edge and Greninja with rock slide, so charti became a set. Now with Tyranitar and Latios rising in usage, bug buzz is definitely a viable option and bug-z is a great option vs zyg/chomp as well if one wants to forgo hp ice. There are many conditional checks and counters to Volcarona, but its offensive versatility should let it remain in A+ for now.
 
Volcarona - A+ ---> A: Undecided
I still would like to share my opinion on Volc despite me being undecided on its placement. While its true that I was one of the people supporting Volc to stay at A+, a lot has changed for it since then. Many Pokemon that annoy Volc have risen in usage recently, like Mantine, Tyranitar, and Mega Pinsir. Mantine fears absolutely nothing from Volcarona and can easily Haze away its boosts, or even Toxic it. Tyranitar only has to worry about Bug Buzz, which is extremely uncommon on Volc currently. Mega Pinsir can revenge kill Volc if it has a slight amount of chip with Quick Attack. The release and viability of Mega Tyranitar doesn't help either, as thats just a bulkier version of Tyranitar. Also, while I've never been a fan of this arguement against it, I cannot ignore that it does need team support to be successful (although, if it does drop, I don't believe this should be the main reason, if it is one at all). With all of that said, Volcarona is still one of, if not the best set up sweeper in the tier. It still puts a massive strain on teambuilding, as you have to run one of the aforementioned Pokemon or run a scarfer that is over base 100 speed, or risk just straight up losing to this thing immediately if it has the correct coverage/set. Also, with Pokemon like Magearna (specifically the shift gear set) and Mew rising in popularity, Volc still finds plenty of set up opportunity in the current meta. It also can change its set to what it needs to hit. It can run HP Ice for Chomp/Zyg, Psychium-Z for Toxapex (this also can hit mons like Zygarde hard too), or even Bug Buzz for Latios/Tyranitar (I know i said it was uncommon, but its still a viable option). It can also run a Charti Berry set to avoid an OHKO from certain Rock moves like Keldeo's Stone Edge and Nihilego's Power Gem. Overall, I wouldn't be opposed to a Volc drop, but I certainly am fine with it staying A+ as well.

Now for a nom of my own...:

Primarina - C+ ---> B-
Primarina is one of the most slept on mons in the meta imo. It has incredible wallbreaking power with Specs. Not very much in the meta can switch in safely to this Pokemon. For example, one of the most common and splashable Water resists in the tier, being AV Tangrowth, is straight up 2HKO'd by Specs Moonblast after rocks. Here are some calcs to show off just how strong this Pokemon is:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 207-244 (52 - 61.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 127-150 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (keep in mind AV mage gets worn down very easily)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 224-264 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

As you can see by the calcs, some of the most fat Pokemon in the metagame can get 2HKO'd or heavily damaged by Primarina's STAB's or its coverage. Along with it's great wallbreaking power, it also boasts a solid defensive typing in Water/Fairy, alongside an above-average Sp. Def stat. This means it can also serve as a check to threatening Pokemon like Ash-Greninja, Keldeo, and non-Grassium Heatran. All in all, I believe Primarina should rise to B- because of it's insane wallbreaking power, solid defensive typing, and it being overall better than a lot of mons in C+.

I have no opinion about Zard X. I haven't used it nearly enough to have a solid opinion.
 
Before I was in favor of dropping Volc, but the post above swayed me. However, MegaZardX needs to drop. It hates the return of rain to OU in Mega Swampert, the Ttars rising, Mega Slowbro rising, and more.

I agree with Primarina to B-. Specs is extremely powerful and makes it a great wallbreaker. Something else to mention is that this thing can be a monster under Trick Room, hurting things left and right. Also, the rise of Ttar and the Eon Twins give some nice role compression in having a single move in Moonblast that destroys both of them.
 

Eclipse

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is a Contributor Alumnus
C+ -> B- Disagree
Even as a big fan of Primarina, I can't get behind a rise for it in any way. The thing that you gotta realize about it is that it finds far less switchin opportunities than you would think, since despite its great defensive typing, its physical bulk is still abysmal. In a tier still dominated by faster attackers that take advantage of it such as Zygarde, Lando, Koko, Bulu, and Tyranitar, Primarina gets pressured too much to come into the match, and it doesn't help that its Speed is trash. Electrium Z Shift Gear Magearna sets outspeed it and bop this thing; I don't see how Tyranitar rising is good for Primarina, if anything it's a bad thing; if we're talking Mega Tar, then lol Primarina isn't an answer, and Band sets should be max Speed anyways (unless you're Timid Primarina). The fact that it checks Keldeo and Ash-Gren doesn't help it much in terms of a rise, as these are things it has always been able to do. Also, despite the obvious Fairy-typing, I honestly prefer Specs Keld as a breaker mostly because it isn't slow as balls while also being able to provide defensive utility in checking the ever-so-popular Ash-Gren while performing as a great check to the rising Mega and regular Tyranitar. Overall, the issues it faces in the meta as well as the general competition it faces as a wallbreaker means I disagree with a Primarina rise at this time.

ABR basically covered a lot of my thoughts on Volcarona, and I have no opinions on Zard atm, I just wanted to give my thoughts on Primarina.
 
C+ -> B- Disagree
Even as a big fan of Primarina, I can't get behind a rise for it in any way. The thing that you gotta realize about it is that it finds far less switchin opportunities than you would think, since despite its great defensive typing, its physical bulk is still abysmal. In a tier still dominated by faster attackers that take advantage of it such as Zygarde, Lando, Koko, Bulu, and Tyranitar, Primarina gets pressured too much to come into the match, and it doesn't help that its Speed is trash. Electrium Z Shift Gear Magearna sets outspeed it and bop this thing; I don't see how Tyranitar rising is good for Primarina, if anything it's a bad thing; if we're talking Mega Tar, then lol Primarina isn't an answer, and Band sets should be max Speed anyways (unless you're Timid Primarina). The fact that it checks Keldeo and Ash-Gren doesn't help it much in terms of a rise, as these are things it has always been able to do. Also, despite the obvious Fairy-typing, I honestly prefer Specs Keld as a breaker mostly because it isn't slow as balls while also being able to provide defensive utility in checking the ever-so-popular Ash-Gren while performing as a great check to the rising Mega and regular Tyranitar. Overall, the issues it faces in the meta as well as the general competition it faces as a wallbreaker means I disagree with a Primarina rise at this time.

ABR basically covered a lot of my thoughts on Volcarona, and I have no opinions on Zard atm, I just wanted to give my thoughts on Primarina.
I do agree with some of your points on Primarina, but I still feel that it should rise. While its Phys. Def is bad, it still finds switch in opportunities vs. Some passive Pokemon that have become popular like Mew, Mantine, and Toxapex. Most of the Pokemon that you mentioned that can take advantage of its low speed and phys. Def cannot switch in cleanly at all, meaning that you most likely have to sack something off to go out to those if Primarina comes in. And I'm not sure why you brought up TTar rising is bad for it. Yes, Prima doesnt like TTar rising since it is something that can outspeed and hurt it, but you brought it up like I said that Prima appreciates it rising in my previous post, which I did not. Also, I was moreso nomming it to rise not because a lot has changed for it, but because I believe the rise should have happened before, and Im just giving my thoughts now. Prima does have a niche over some water type breakers like specs ash gren and specs keldeo since prima can actually break through mons that would check those mons like AV tang, toxapex, ferrorhorn, and tapu fini. While I do agree with some of your points, I believe that Primarina's niche of a water type breaker that sacrifices speed for actually being able to break through most water resists is a good enough niche to warrant it B-.
 
Ok real talk.
B+ -> B
Hoopa-U has been consistently difficult to build around this gen, offering zero defensive utility and low enough speed to get outsped and threatened by pretty much every offensive mon in the tier. Luckily its wallbreaking ability has never really been called into question... until this stage of the gen. Magearna is now everywhere on the ladder and high level play and if Hoopa is lacking Fire Punch or is locked into something else Magearna comes in for free at best and sets up on it at worst. Even ignoring this significant meta trend the meta has always been on the offensive side and full of fairies and therefore very unkind to Hoopa. Even stall still has Duggy to trap it. You can call it a balance breaker but true balance doesn't really exist, it's either bulky offense or semi-stall. Either way, Magearna going to S rank and the resulting usage spike is more than enough for me to put Hoopa-U down at least a subrank.
 
Ok real talk.
B+ -> B
Hoopa-U has been consistently difficult to build around this gen, offering zero defensive utility and low enough speed to get outsped and threatened by pretty much every offensive mon in the tier. Luckily its wallbreaking ability has never really been called into question... until this stage of the gen. Magearna is now everywhere on the ladder and high level play and if Hoopa is lacking Fire Punch or is locked into something else Magearna comes in for free at best and sets up on it at worst. Even ignoring this significant meta trend the meta has always been on the offensive side and full of fairies and therefore very unkind to Hoopa. Even stall still has Duggy to trap it. You can call it a balance breaker but true balance doesn't really exist, it's either bulky offense or semi-stall. Either way, Magearna going to S rank and the resulting usage spike is more than enough for me to put Hoopa-U down at least a subrank.
I think Hoopa-Us Specs Set is not a good Set this Gen with the introduction of Magearna and Muk, which can be an argument for a drop but I still think we should look at other Sets first.
Example: The Choice Band Set is still extremly threatening because of this:

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 181-213 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Clef cannot wish on you because Hyperspace Fury ignores Protect.
It also hits Heatran through its Substitute, which some teams are extremely weak to.

You do not have to predict at all because you 2HKO every offensive resist like Tyranitar and Bulu. Jolly is important to outspeed Tapu Bulu, who can otherwise switch into Hyper Space and Horn Leech back with 273 Speed.

I like the combo of Spdef U-Turn Jirach with Banded Hoopa-U. Jirachi U-Turns on Fire and Steel types to bring in Hoopa-U and also switches into stuff that Hoopa-U does not appreciate, like Lele and Magearna. Because of Hoopa-Us weight, you can survive Heavy Slam (60 BP) even at -3 defense from bulky Celesteela.

While true balance does not exist, every bulky Offense team has those 2-3 fat mons that are slower than Jolly Hoopa-U. Examples include Magearna, Tang, Mew, Fini, Lando-T etc.. If you successfully pivot on them, you are in a check positionl.

Choice Band is an unexplored thing (both ladder and tournament wise) but I feel it is the Set, that should keep Hoopa-U at least B+.
 
A few things, what if the Clefable is running Softboiled + Magic Guard?

Also, I don't think Hyperspace Fury hits through Substitute, just Protect type moves (someone can confirm this).

Also, 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 132-156 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 126-149 (44.8 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
You're not 2HKOing Ttar and you have a negligible chance to 2HKO Tapu Bulu so Ttar Pursuits on you and Bulu indeed Horn Leeches unless you switch.

ALSO don't Magearna and slower Lando-T sets (ie, defensive U-turn sets) beat Banded Hoopa-U anyway? ( 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 127-150 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) (-1 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 153-180 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)

The more I dig into this Hoopa set the shakier it looks at beating a lot of OU's prominent bulky threats and is more prediction reliant than you make it out to be. Granted, A layer of Spikes make a lot of these calcs a lot more favorable for Hoopa but the same is true for every other breaker (Spikes is pree good). I like the look of the Jirachi/Hoopa core as well but until someone actually uses it and sees high level success with it I don't see it as proof of Hoopa-U keeping its rank. As is, you're right that we need to explore the Band set more because its success can go either way in my eyes.
 
A few things, what if the Clefable is running Softboiled + Magic Guard?

Also, I don't think Hyperspace Fury hits through Substitute, just Protect type moves (someone can confirm this).

Also, 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 132-156 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 126-149 (44.8 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
You're not 2HKOing Ttar and you have a negligible chance to 2HKO Tapu Bulu so Ttar Pursuits on you and Bulu indeed Horn Leeches unless you switch.

ALSO don't Magearna and slower Lando-T sets (ie, defensive U-turn sets) beat Banded Hoopa-U anyway? ( 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 127-150 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) (-1 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 153-180 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)

The more I dig into this Hoopa set the shakier it looks at beating a lot of OU's prominent bulky threats and is more prediction reliant than you make it out to be. Granted, A layer of Spikes make a lot of these calcs a lot more favorable for Hoopa but the same is true for every other breaker (Spikes is pree good). I like the look of the Jirachi/Hoopa core as well but until someone actually uses it and sees high level success with it I don't see it as proof of Hoopa-U keeping its rank. As is, you're right that we need to explore the Band set more because its success can go either way in my eyes.
It is not about what beats Hoopa-U in a 1vs1 situation, it is about what can switch into and avoid the 2HKO after Rocks from Choice Band. There is max HP Magearna, Tapu Fini, Bold Clef, Mega TTar and yea, thats literally it. That is without even trying to predict and just clicking Choice Band Hyperspace Fury. The list of possible switch-ins is extremly small, but the reason Hoopa-U is not S or A+ is simply because it is hard to get into the position, from where you can proceed to 2HKO the switch-in. Just by having Hoopa-U in the back, good players will realize this threat and might stay in to risk the mon on the field than to allow their switch-in to get U-Turned on which will force a sack.
 
I Agree with Tapu Fini'snomination to A- rank.

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 HP/24 Spa/232 Speed
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump/Scald
- Moonblast
- Taunt
This set is freaking good in HO teams: it enables it to takedown its checks,aka zapdos sp def celesteela(after several Calm minds),Rocky Helmet Tangrowth,etc... After several Calm minds, it can become a potential cleaner.It is a very good balance breaker, thanks to its natural bulk,Misty terrain and Taunt.Even the mons which are supposed to check this set(bar ferrothorn) such as Tapu Bulu(besides, it can be potentailly burned by Scald) and Amoonguss,should watch out their HP.
Against HO teams,it is also a good choice. it can potentially, revenge kill mons such as Zygarde(jolly Zygarde isnt the most common thing),Keldeo,Ash-Greninja,Latios,Weavile...
bonus:its taunt is useful against Smeargle which try to set up webs and Gyarados which try to set up 1 Dragon Dance.


Furthermore, it has Defensive Utility, with Misty Terrain which can support its team;it can also check with Ash-Greninja and Specs Kingdra, even without Sp def EV/Calm minds thanks to its typing/natural Bulk.

What about the other set?

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Nature's Madness
- Moonblast
- Defog/scald

This set is also cool, even I think Calm Mind is the best set Right Now.Nature Madness+taunt enables it to weaken mons such as Ferrothorn/Mew/etc and prevent them from using recovery moves.its speed tier enables Fini to outspeed taunt users such as Heatran,Tapu bulu,standard defensive Mew..

Replays, with my alt aka dspojfpo
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-594619655
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-594614053
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-594612429

Its my First post in this thread. dont be rude please :). Thanks
I forgot a proof for my alt https://puu.sh/wskz5/b4816b8480.png
 
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What a fall from grace for Zard X.

The meta is just really not favoring it. Yea, Tangrowth/Koko is kinda free, but EQ does 44% min once Zard has Mega'd and Flare Blitz is needed to OHKO AV Tangrowth (+0 Jolly FB doesn't even OHKO PhysDef Tangrowth, and if rocks are up it's still only a 50% chance) so the recoil screws you. Koko can just pivot on your face for free and get nice chip.

Pretty much all Scarfers are now 101+ to outspeed stuff like Volcarona and the like after a QD, which really screws over Zard X in the process. You want to run Adamant because you're already outsped even at +1 by common Scarfers like Garchomp and Keldeo, but then why not run Mega Medicham or another better wallbreaker that isn't 4x weak to Stealth Rock pre-mega/2x after mega?
 
B- up to B

Bulky Waters are becoming a lot better, and Alomomola is no exception. Alomomola is really being slept on atm. Wish is really good in the current meta, and Clefable is the only better user of it. The rise of Assault Vest Magearna has really helped it, as they form a really good defensive core together, with Alomomola dealing with the Fire and Ground types that give Magearna trouble, while Magearna deals with Tapu Koko and Tapu Bulu. In fact, everything in S through A+ alone really appreciates Wish support bar Tangrowth and the Greninjas. Rain, Heatran and Weavile being more viable is in Alomomola's favor, as is Zapdos dipping in viability. Therefore I think the metagame has done Alomomola enough favors to push it up to B, as it's not on the same level as trash like Latias and Mega Venusaur.
 
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you can pull all these arguments, but when you look at how the tier has shaped, all i see is mega charizard x is deserving of its current ranking.

it loses to base 100+ choice scarf users. it loses to landorus-t. it is prone to hazards. it does get trapped by dugtrio. no one questioned this because this isn't something that is, well....new. the only new thing i've seen is how the tyranitars and heatran are cementing themselves in the tier, but that really isn't enough to justify a drop, especially considering it can run earthquake to remove them and the toxapex (got to show my respect), which is seeing high usage again come wcop.

for one, landorus-t are running offensive sets more often which cannot switch into mega charizard x. leftovers landorus-t is starting to take over rocky helmet to an extent since it trades chip versus certain physical attackers for more assurance against zygarde, meaning mega charizard x does not have to be at an unbelievably low amount of health when it uses flare blitz. moving on, mew has sky rocketed in usage and mega charizard x loves to use that 'mon to fire off a free flare blitz. mega charizard x also exploits a lot of other common defensive pokemon: tangrowth, non-thunder wave clefable, magearna, celesteela, ferrrothorn, zapdos,...it's a fantastic check to tapu bulu, which are starting to use bloom doom more than continental crush. some of these overlap with volcarona, but look where volcarona is. i wouldn't call mega charizard x bad for being comparable to a top 2 sweeper in the tier.

and on top of that you are telling me that mega charizard x is on the level of other pokemon lying in b- such as kartana, salamence, togekiss, and manaphy? i'd honestly just drop this discussion point lol.
 
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I know this is going to be a little controversial (especially with the prevalence of Greninja / Ash-Greninja) but...
C- to C

I think Bronzong is so vastly underrated as a pivot that it's a little scary. Not to mention its vast movepool (including TR setting), ability to deal with and stomach most of the Tapus (particularly Lele), being able to check Lando-T, Toxapex, Mew, and multiple other threats. It's also much more splashable than people are lead to believe, as many different team archetypes can acclimate to it. The metagame has been increasingly kind to it with current trends, and I think it should be upped from C- to C to reflect these trends.
 
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I know this is going to be a little controversial (especially with the prevalence of Greninja / Ash-Greninja) but...
C- to C

I think Bronzong is so vastly underrated as a pivot that it's a little scary. Not to mention its vast movepool (including TR setting), ability to deal with and stomach most of the Tapus (particularly Lele), being able to check Lando-T, Toxapex, Mew, and multiple other threats. It's also much more splashable than people are lead to believe, as many different team archetypes can acclimate to it. The metagame has been increasingly kind to it with current trends, and I think it should be upped from C- to C to reflect these trends.
I think you're overselling Bronzong. First of all, it isn't that great of a pivot because it has no recovery outside of lefties so it's rather easy to wear down esp with it constantly switching into stuff like specs lele. It doesn't beat most of the tapus because Koko just clicks tbolt, Fini beats it with Nature's Madness, Bulu OHKOs it at +2 and even Lele, who isn't that relevant/threatening anymore, can beat it in the long run. It also loses to the most relevant variant of Offensive Lando-T rn in Smack Down+SSS. You also mention how the metagame is kind to it but don't even bother explaining how. I rly don't see how Pursuit Trappers like Weavile and Ttar getting more usage helps it and Lele, the only mon you could argue it beats, is far less popular rn. Not to mention Zygarde being everywhere and Rockium Lando-T being less popular as well. I think Bronzong is fine at C- and doesn't deserve a rise at all. Btw sorry for focusing on lower rankd mons I just wanted to get this out of the way
 
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