Metagame SM NU Alpha Discussion (read post #153)

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termi

bike is short for bichael
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Did anyone try out Z-Celebrate Charizard or Z-Splash Kingdra yet?

The problem I am seeing on Charizard is, if there is no Roost, you have to make sure your opponent can't get rocks up and clear the field or else you rely on a single coverage move. Though I don't know what you would run in addition to Fire STAB. Maybe EQ?
Z-Splash Kingdra doesn't sound good, it only gets one setup opportunity and even then, it's outclassed by CritDra.



Kingdra @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Focus Energy
- Agility/Ice Beam/HP Fire/whatever

I haven't tested this in NU yet, so there's probably better spreads around (you can run quite a bit of bulk in order to ease setup while still outspeeding the things you want to outspeed and KOing the things you want to KO), but the premise is as follows: Scope Lens + Focus Energy gives you 100% chance of getting a crit, allowing Kingdra to double its damage output (thanks to Sniper). Draco Meteor's Special Attack drops are ignored due to how critical hits work, allowing you to spam what is essentially a +2 130 BP Dragon type STAB move without repercussions. If you don't need the raw power or your opponent somehow allows you to set up twice, you can get up an Agility and outspeed the majority of your opponent's team, giving this Kingdra set a better matchup against offense, but of course if you solely want to use it in order to tear down defensive teams, you can replace Agility with a coverage move in order to deal with stuff like Togetic and Ferroseed better.

This set is simply better than Z-Splash because you don't have to waste your z-move, you have more than one opportunity to set up, and Draco Meteor is way more reliable than Outrage since you don't have to lock yourself into anything and the negative side effects of Draco are ignored. The damage output is roughly the same:

+3 252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 433-510 (107.1 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew on a critical hit: 423-499 (104.7 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meanwhile, Hydro Pump obviously hits significantly harder than Waterfall. Z-Splash Kingdra sounds cool in theory, but CritDra does roughly the same thing way more reliably. Slap it on a webs team in order to outspeed and OHKO faster offensive mons without having to use Agility or just use it when you want to use a boosting sweeper that can circumvent Unaware, basically a faster, bulkier Pangoro that hits on the special side in that regard.
 

Spiritomb @ Choice Band / Black Glasses
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Shadow Sneak / Dark Pulse / Destiny Bond / Will-o-Wisp / Foul Play
- Trick / Taunt / Destiny Bond / Will-o-Wisp

Probably my favorite glue mon in the tier rn, Spiritomb really does it all. A lot of powerful pokemon really appreciate Pursuit support at the moment (Moltres, Noivern, Hitmonlee, Spikers), priority is obviously amazing in an offensive meta and Spiritomb brings one of the strongest options for that with its STAB Sucker Punch. The last 2 slots are pretty easy to fill for CB (Sneak/Trick), but for Black Glasses you can really customize the set. WoW helps against Slurpuffs that would just love to drum their bellies at you, Destiny Bond can mess with all kinds of stuff, Taunt doesn't look great on a slow mon like this but Spiritomb still outspeeds stuff like Slowbro and Steelix. Dark Pulse and Foul play are more reliable Dark STAB options but mono-Dark coverage obviously has flaws. If you want to beat Fighting types better you can even run Psychic or something like that.

I haven't seen that many spinners outside of Hitmonlee but hey, it's better to have a spinblocker than not to have one and Spiritomb is probably the bulkiest one you can fit on an offensive team.

Also completely shits on Medicham lmao



Meloetta @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Relic Song
- Close Combat
- Return
- Knock Off

128 Attack. 128 Speed. STAB Close Combat. Unresisted 3 move coverage. 20% chance to sleep the opposing pokemon. What's not to like? We all know how annoying Ribombee and Noivern are with their speed tiers are and this beast is both faster and stronger. It requires you to jump through some hoops but I think it's worth it a lot of the time. Offense predictably has a lot of trouble against this thing, for bulky teams you need to get a bunch of hazards.

For some reason, people keep switching their Ghost types in on Relic Song on ladder and I really want them to stop btw.
 


Vileplume @ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Moonlight
- HP Ground / Aromatherapy / Whatever you want lol

Handles most fighting types bar Gallade/Medicham/Emboar, checks a bunch of attackers thanks to it's typing and good all round bulk, has instant recovery and pressure switch ins with 110 special attack and Sludge Bomb poisons. Effect spore can be pain for your opponent. Vileplume was one of my favourte mons in ORAS and it's still just as good now. Also to note while I couldn't call this a reliable check to Slurpuff, It tanks a +6 Return and KO's back with Sludge Bomb. Of course, hazards need to be cleared if you want this to happen.

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 281-331 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

edit: i like shiny pokemon
Just a neat alternative to this set I've been running that has worked nicely:


Vileplume @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Moonblast

Poisinium-Z weakens Knock Off damage, which means you always survive a +2 Panda Knock and KO back with Moonblast, while the boosted Sludge Bomb can be used to 1hko Viriz. +2 Adamant Gunk Shot still has a good chance to kill after rocks unfortunately, but this is a pretty handy check to the the panda and a bunch of other fighting types.
 
Started messing with some other stuff so I guess i'll post some more sets I guess.


Vanilluxe @ Life Orb
Ability: Snow Warning
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard
- Explosion

This thing gets snow warning now so it can spam Blizzard's. Overall I'd say this is better than using Aurorus now since it has the same ability but noticeably more special attack, a better speed tier and it's typing not being as bad as ice/rock defensively. A lot of teams I've noticed are lacking ice resists or only Pokemon that fall to freeze dry (Slowking, Slowbro, Lanturn, Vaporeon etc) so Vanilluxe is just taking advantage of them with freeze dry scoring a 2HKO on all of them. This is pretty much the same moveset from ORAS but Ice Beam being traded for Blizzard. Vanilluxe is pretty strong so Blizzard 2HKO's most fire types and explosion punishes the rest who try to tank a Blizzard.


Metang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Metang is quite a niche option, but it's one of the few mons that switch into Dragalge well and handles a bunch of other attacks thanks to it's respectable typing and bulk. I'm not really feeling Bronzor much because it's a little too passive and easy pursuit bait now and Metang has slightly better bulk with the ability to pressure targets with Meteor Mash and Earthquake hitting most those pesky dark types that may try to switch in normally. You can probably change the spread to your liking like giving it some defensive investment but it's up to you. Give Metang a go! :toast:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Metang: 106-125 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO


Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse / Snarl
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Will-O-Wisp

Nice win condition, spin-blocks against most targets well and handles fighting types thanks to that typing. After the opposing team has been weakened down and fairy types have been eliminated, Spiritomb has a good chance and sweeping teams.
 
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Started messing with some other stuff so I guess i'll post some more sets I guess.


Vanilluxe @ Life Orb
Ability: Snow Warning
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard
- Explosion

This thing gets snow warning now so it can spam Blizzard's. Overall I'd say this is better than using Aurorus now since it has the same ability but noticeably more special attack, a better speed tier and it's typing not being as bad as ice/rock defensively. A lot of teams I've noticed are lacking ice resists or only Pokemon that fall to freeze dry (Slowking, Slowbro, Lanturn, Vaporeon etc) so Vanilluxe is just taking advantage of them with freeze dry scoring a 2HKO on all of them. This is pretty much the same moveset from ORAS but Ice Beam being traded for Blizzard. Vanilluxe is pretty strong so Blizzard 2HKO's most fire types and explosion punishes the rest who try to tank a Blizzard.


Metang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Metang is quite a niche option, but it's one of the few mons that switch into Dragalge well and handles a bunch of other attacks thanks to it's respectable typing and bulk. I'm not really feeling Bronzor much because it's a little too passive and easy pursuit bait now and Metang has slightly better bulk with the ability to pressure targets with Meteor Mash and Earthquake hitting most those pesky dark types that may try to switch in normally. You can probably change the spread to your liking like giving it some defensive investment but it's up to you. Give Metang a go! :toast:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Metang: 106-125 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO


Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse / Snarl
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Will-O-Wisp

Nice win condition, spin-blocks against most targets well and handles fighting types thanks to that typing. After the opposing team has been weakened down and fairy types have been eliminated, Spiritomb has a good chance and sweeping teams.
*One other cool thing with Metang is that many people forget that since it has clear body, memento will not work against it. I've run into many people who were trying to use memento from Whimsicott, only to realize that they wasted their time. This could definitely help against the set-up sweepers that really on memento!
 
Hello ladies, I decided to share some sets and Pokémon with you guys. I've messed a lot with them recently and they're performing very well.


Vivillon @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Hurricane
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance

this mon is soooo good, ive only seen sash or lum berry sets which i dont understand since this set is so good and powerful. i recommend trying it out.
as z hurricane does a lot of damage to defensive walls like steelix, porygon, golbat etc opening a path for a secondary sweeper.


Barbaracle @ Rockium Z
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Razor Shell
- Shell Smash

this mons is incredibly busted and i really wonder how people dont abuse it, it has the very good edgequake coverage + water stab boosted by its abillity and also lit bulk and very good typing to set up on a lot of common threats in this meta.
+2 252+ Atk Barbaracle Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 355-418 (94.9 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
just look at that wonderful calc. important to mention u get a guaranteed edge hit and u dont have to be scared about missing. jolly can be used i guess.


Scyther @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Reversal
- Aerial Ace
- Bug Bite
- Swords Dance

people most likely saw me around with that set and let me tell u it is the truth. z reversal is a 160 fighting move and ohkos so much shit at +2 mainly steelix and porygon pair it up with a dodrio or another flying user that can take advantage of rocks and s teels being gone and u have a broken core.
+2 252 Atk Scyther All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Scyther All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 396-468 (105.8 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Scyther All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyrantrum: 266-314 (87.2 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
try it out.


Skuntank @ Firium Z
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Defog

this is a special. the anti hazard skuntank. inferno overdrive ko's steelix which is usually skuntanks primary switchin it secures ull get ur rocks away and is a great partner for yanmega if u wanna abuse it. hp grass hits other rockers like seismitoad and rhydon and drk pulse is just stab.


finally this monster:

Sceptile @ Choice Specs
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Rock]

he is tooooo good he shouldnt be allowed at all, its nice speed and good offensive typing make it a huge threat to face against he absolutely destroys offense and also is a big threat to balanced teams. leaf storm is abusable and giga drain is very good too. focus blast hits steels but u dont have to click it most of the time anyway bc steels and co take massive dmg from leaf storm anyway. hp rock is for golbat and moltres which does ok dmg to both.

252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 364-429 (109.9 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 327-385 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 258-304 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Emboar: 195-229 (54 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and many more calcs there are just too much sceptile is so good.

and here is a special:


SHAKINGDRA (Kingdra) @ Waterium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Waterfall
- Rain Dance
- Dragon Dance

this set is from the dpp times and was invented by the great ojama. i took and adapted it to the current nu metagame. its actually surprisingly good!
rain dance lets it beat offensive teams very well as it brings kingdra up to a nice 500 speed stat letting it fire off rain boosted waterfalls. dragon dance helps it beat down more bulkyish teams where its usually easier to boost once or twice than vs offense. i chose waterium z because it works very well together with rain and makes its waterfall way more dangerous, outrage is already strong enough so i felt it doesnt need the z on that. of course u can run dragonium z and it will still work out, you could even use lum berry to break down bulkier teams more easy but thats up to you, i personally prefer waterium z as it hits sttrong as heck in the rain and helps it beat down defensive walls better. rain dance also bluffs the special set which might come i handy as they go into their special wall and u destroy it with z wfall, overall a cool tech.

bonus calc:
+1 252+ Atk Kingdra Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Rain: 333-393 (89 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

satisfying.
pce.
 

The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
bonus calc:
+1 252+ Atk Kingdra Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Rain: 333-393 (89 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

satisfying.
pce.
Can we talk about the fact that an ADAMANT, +1, STAB, PHYSICAL, RAIN BOOSTED Z-move from one of the best Pokemon in the tier only has a 31.3% chance to OHKO SPDEF P2?

Yeah, screw P2. Can't wait for the meta to develop without the thing that counters all the broken stuff and makes us think they are O_K.
 

erisia

Innovative new design!
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Can we talk about the fact that an ADAMANT, +1, STAB, PHYSICAL, RAIN BOOSTED Z-move from one of the best Pokemon in the tier only has a 31.3% chance to OHKO SPDEF P2?

Yeah, screw P2. Can't wait for the meta to develop without the thing that counters all the broken stuff and makes us think they are O_K.
This is also a OHKO after Rocks (which will be up), the P2 is running some Def investment (which not all do, you need max SpD to check Exploud reliably), and Kingdra both has Base 95 Attack and lacks a power boosting item. I'm not saying that Porygon2 definitely isn't a problem but the degree to which people seem to think it's too bulky is exaggerated in my opinion. There are plenty of viable/common ways to check P2 (Knock Off, Taunt, Toxic / Toxic Spikes, Trick/Switcheroo, Fighting-types of which we have like a dozen good ones, various other wallbreakers/stallbreakers) and I've yet to be convinced that it's so hard to check that it's unquestionably broken.
 
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This is also a OHKO after Rocks (which will be up), the P2 is running some Def investment (which not all do, you need max SpD to check Exploud reliably), and Kingdra both has Base 95 Attack and lacks a power boosting item. I'm not saying that Porygon2 definitely isn't a problem but the degree to which people seem to think it's too bulky is exaggerated in my opinion. There are plenty of viable/common ways to check P2 (Knock Off, Taunt, Toxic / Toxic Spikes, Trick/Switcheroo, Fighting-types of which we have like a dozen good ones, various other wallbreakers/stallbreakers) and I've yet to be convinced that it's so hard to check that it's unquestionably broken.
It doesn't have a boosting item because it's using a Z-Move. That's a lot more than what any boosting item can offer. Even then, it's still STAB and Rain boosted in addition to the +1. I feel like something that can live a Z-Move with a 3.375x multiplier attached to it from anything with even a half decent attack is cause for concern. It's not like P2 resists or anything.

That said, yeah, P2 isn't unbeatable. KO and toxic pretty much give it a death sentence, but other than that it's a really hard wall to break. Even super effective attacks need to be coming from the right mons to really put a dent in it.
 

The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
This is also a OHKO after Rocks (which will be up), the P2 is running some Def investment (which not all do, you need max SpD to check Exploud reliably), and Kingdra both has Base 95 Attack and lacks a power boosting item. I'm not saying that Porygon2 definitely isn't a problem but the degree to which people seem to think it's too bulky is exaggerated in my opinion. There are plenty of viable/common ways to check P2 (Knock Off, Taunt, Toxic / Toxic Spikes, Trick/Switcheroo, Fighting-types of which we have like a dozen good ones, various other wallbreakers/stallbreakers) and I've yet to be convinced that it's so hard to check that it's unquestionably broken.

Made a quick graphic here regarding P2 matchups

Legend: P2 does...

Green = Pretty much 100% beats
Yellow = Beats unless running a specific set to beat P2 such as Taunt Pyroar, CM Delphox, Cross Chop Evire, etc
Red = Does not beat
Black = Mostly irrelevant

The main issue is that P2 walls such a large portion of the metagame, which makes teambuilding so much easier for the P2 player. Looking at this you can see that basically the main threats to P2 are Knock Off mons and Fighting types, which can pretty easily be beaten with the bevvy of good fighting types (or z-move mons etc) and ghost types respectively. I just feel that it's overcentralizing as many mons have to change their set to have a chance to beat P2.

Status is pretty unreliable as Heal Bell etc can be used and the Magic Coat set is very effective at stopping passive mons from beating it. It's very effective at coming in and checking many threats as well as spreading status while staying healthy throughout the game (you get to choose whether your team needs t-wave or toxic as well).

The fact that so many Pokemon are basically invalidated is a little bit disgusting and to me is why P2 needs to be quick banned no question.

(Take note that I made this in about 5 minutes so I don't see the need to quabble with specific matchups as much as the point of the grand scheme of how much of the meta P2 beats and why its counterplay is easy to beat with your own teambuilding).
 
I think the main argument against p2 (which goomy outlined briefly using the graphic above) and the reason why personally i'll be voting to ban it during beta is how harmful it is towards metagame growth. I don't think that p2 is an overtly broken mon individually, but the way in which it puts a stranglehold on viable special attackers in the metagame scares me quite a bit. I would much rather take a chance, ban p2 earlier, see how the beta metagame develops and then re-introduce it at a later date (which would be the ideal scenario in my opinion), than leave it and have our unstable beta metagame centralize around what would be without a doubt the most versatile defensive pokemon in the metagame. Now onto a fuckton of sets that i've been using (note these sets are mainly built for after all of the really broken stuff is gone after alpha):

SECTION A: HAZARDS - This section of mons is gonna focus on pokemon that can get up hazards, specifically against xatu which was THE pokemon that put a stranglehold on the hazards game for the majority of last gen.


Druddigon @ Leftovers / Yache Berry | Mold Breaker
248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe | Adamant
Dragon Claw | Stealth Rock | Sucker Punch | Fire Punch / Gunk Shot / Earthquake

First up is Druddigon, who sports a pretty fantastic combination that can completely avoid those stupid mindgames. If you're not aware, the combination of Mold Breaker + Stealth Rock allows Druddigon to completely bypass magic bounce shenanigans and keep those rocks up to stay (unless theyre running a defogger too which is super rare unless its a super defensive team). Drudd also offers priority and a check (emphasis on check) to Sunny Day Charizard which a lot of teams don't really have right now. Last slot is customizable and generally you want to run lefties as the passive recovery is extremely nice, although yache can be neat in order to stay in without fear on cryogonal that comes in to spin your hazards away.


Qwilfish @ Poisonium Z | Intimidate
28 HP / 252 Atk / 228 Spe | Adamant
Taunt | Waterfall | Poison Jab | Spikes

or


Garbodor @ Poisonium Z | Aftermath
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe | Jolly
Gunk Shot | Seed Bomb | Spikes | Toxic Spikes

Poisonium Z Spikers! both of these mons do the same thing, bait xatu into thinking its safe to switch in and then KO it with Acid Downpour. There's obviously still an element of mind games with both of these (mainly when dealing with really fast xatus), but through testing they both do their jobs really well. Qwil obviously has intimidate and taunt which gives it more utility than garb, but garb has t-spikes, a way to hit seismitoad and doesnt have to worry as much about fast xatu so the choice is pretty team specific, both are really good though!

SECTION B: Z MOVES - This section is just focusing on creative z-move users


Aromatisse @ Normalium Z | Aroma Veil
248 HP / 148 Def / 112 SpDef | Calm
Wish | Heal Bell | Protect | Moonblast

With the lack of mega audino in the tier, trick users like scarf rotom and meloetta have become a lot more threatening towards stall teams. This set is primarily designed to act as sort of an anti-stallbreaker mon (due to its immunities to taunt, encore and trick) as well as a pretty functional cleric for stall. Z-Heal Bell gives Aromatisse 1 extra heal bell PP as well as an emergency 1 Turn heal if need be. The EVs are designed to take 2 LO Noivern Hurricanes (unfortunately not while rocks are up which is again why stall is probably the best playstyle for it) while still providing some defense to check the myriad of fighting types in the tier.


Necrozma @ Groundium Z | Prism Armor
172 HP / 140 Atk / 196 Spe | Adamant
Swords Dance | Autotomize | Psycho Cut | Earthquake

DD Necrozma. This set is fucking awesome and it always puts in a ton of work in whatever matchup its put in. This set does an excellent job of baiting in traditional Necrozma Checks like Steelix and Drapion and simply destroying them with Tectonic Rage. The EV Spread is something that I concocted that does a variety of things: you always OHKO steelix (barring sturdy) and rhydon (after rocks) with +2 Z-Earthquake and you outpace base 95 scarfers at +2 speed and always OHKO scarf drapion with +0 Groundium Z EQ. The rest I just threw into bulk because necrozma is already fat and now with prism armor you can set up on basically anything. biggest block to this set is floating psychics which is why a pursuiter is a really good teammate for this set, please try it out!


Medicham @ Fightinium Z | Pure Power
252 Atk / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe | Adamant
Bulk Up | Drain Punch | Zen Headbutt / Thunder Punch | Bullet Punch

Z-Bulk Up Medicham is really cool because medicham is already super fucking strong and Z-BU basically gives you a free SD and +1 defense to work with which raises Medi's attack to over 900. I went with drain punch over HJK because medis attack is already gonna be sky high and i find not missing and the recovery to definitely be worth it (you can also use z-fight drain punch if you think its more worth to just get a big nuke hit off on something). Bullet punch fucks over ribombee that tries to revenge as well as does around 50 to noivern so if you can get it low enough you'll be able to revenge that as well. Zen or Thunderpunch works in the last slot, zen is just extra stab but t-punch can help you bypass slowking and xatu although it leaves you walled by poisons like vileplume.


Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z | Fur Coat
4 Def / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe | Timid
Nasty Plot | Dark Pulse | Taunt | Hidden Power [Flying]

The last cool Z-move I urge you guys to try out is NP Persian-A. Fur Coat just makes it so easy for this mon to set up a nasty plot or 2 and absolutely go to town on the opposing team. +2 Z-Dark Pulse acts as a nuke towards basically anything that doesnt resist it and HP flying is just used to OHKO virizion after rocks. I dont think this set is all that amazing right now considering how popular ribombee and noivern are (115 is actually only a mediocre speed tier rn D:), but if you can get rid of those, this set puts in a ton of work.

SECTION 3: Other Movesets - This section is just for non z-move movesets that i think people should be using more often


Machamp @ Flame Orb | Guts
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe | Adamant
Close Combat | Knock Off | Facade | Bullet Punch

Inspired by flame orb heracross and conkeldurr in RU and UU respectively, flame orb machamp is a fantastic wallbreaker right now. by running max speed, it outpaces basically every defensive pokemon in the tier and 2HKOs every single one of them with a combination of CC / Knock or Facade. BP OHKOs ribombee and does a decent amount of damage on most other offensive pokemon in the tier. The lack of longevity really hurts it, but when machamp is in, you can expect at least 1 mon to die almost every time.


Sigilyph @ Life Orb | Magic Guard
4 Def / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe | Timid
Psychic | Substitute | Dazzling Gleam | Heat Wave / Energy Ball

Finally I have sub 3 attacks sigilyph. sigi is a fantastic wallbreaker on its own, however its very weak to being pursuit trapped by faster mons like sneasel and scarf drapion. by using substitute on say a sacked pokemon, sigi can either beat the pursuiters 1 on 1 or escape unharmed from their grasp. It also lets you avoid sucker punch from the likes of toxicroak, shiftry, skuntank etc. The last slot is a toss up between hitting ferroseed and steelix harder or not being walled by slowking.
 

passion

heavenly :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Hello everybody welcome 2 passion's comprehensive guide on Pokemon that are broken and should be owned in beta. In this post I will be displaying all of the Pokemon within Sun/Moon Neverused Alpha must be abolished to make this tier playable. This list was compiled using mostly my opinion, but I have also consulted my good friend ADVANTAGE to contribute in the making of this list. Also it should be mentioned that this list is in no particular order.



The first Pokemon on this list of many is Porygon2 because The Goomy complained about him enough. With this in mind I do not feel the need to complain about it any further, but fuck this Pokemon.



Next Pokemon in passion's comprehensive guide of complaints is Slurpuff. Belly Drum Slurpuff is stupid. Slurpuff is not necessarily versatile in the way that it has a million sets like many of the Pokemon I am going to complain about, rather it is versatile in the way that you can throw it on nearly every team and manage to get free wins. Checks for the Belly Drum set include Steelix if you are able to keep it health through the game which you won't because Steelix is supposed to check everything else as well, teambuilding so it cannot possibly setup on anything (still loses to screens), Vileplume, N/A, and the illustrious Bronzor. You can always throw a tech Scarf on something fast, but being forced to throw away an entire teamslot with a like that is stupid. Being forced to fill multiple slots on a team with the same Pokemon on every team is unacceptable. Based on appearance one may assume that Slurpuff has trouble setting up on anything, but 82/86/75 defensive statistics are beyond passable. This combination of things has led Slurpuff to be a part of the group of stupid broken shit that currently plagues the tier in it's alpha stages.



Yanmega is as of this moment my most complained about thing in this tier. As it always has Yanmega has 2 amazing sets. Nobody uses the Speed Boost Life Orb set even though it is possibly one of the best late game cleaners in the tier. This set has gotten practically no usage because Tinted Lens Choice Specs Yanmega is the most foolish thing of all time. It's viable switchins in this tier are practically nonexistant and the gimmicks get killed by Air Slash anyways. Many people may believe that Yanmega's 4x weakness to Stealth Rocks may limit it in someway, but this does not even remotely matter. It's time to face the facts that hazard removal is no longer nonexistent in the Neverused tier. There are many usable Pokemon that effectively keep Stealth Rocks off the field such as Cryogonal, Xatu, all the Hitmon Pokemon, and a few others. EVEN IF hazard removal was not a viable option Yanmega can come in on rocks twice which equates at least 2 free kills. I rozes believes this Pokemon is manageable, but please do not fall for his lies.



Next on the list is not a Pokemon, rather an ability that being Drought. There are just too many viable abusers of sun to allow Auto-sun in this tier. Many people will agree that last generation manually set weather was extremely frustrating to run into on ladder as it is just a gimmick that many teams have an unwinnable matchup against. Drought making it so sun abusers don't need to waste a slot on Sunny Day and can instead use something like Sleep Powder, Growth, or coverage instead. Drought also insures that you don't need to waste slots on designated weather setters such as and can instead use better Pokemon that do not drag the team down. In my humble opinion having Drought in the tier to set sun automatically makes the playstyle way too consistent to be fair within the Neverused tier.



Too strong, Knock Off is broken, movepool is passable enough 2 make it stupid.



Too strong. Not fair. Fuck Boomburst.



Draglage would probably be a pretty cool Pokemon if it were not for it getting Adaptability. This ability just makes it way too strong for the tier to deal with as of now. Had Draglage been some sort of glass cannon this may be alright, but instead it actually has impressive bulk especially on the special side which gives it way too many opportunities to get free switch ins and drop nukes.


Next on my list of complaints is Moltres. To immediately remove any argument including Stealth Rocks I will again mention that hazard removal is not totally worthless this generation. With that out of the way I would like to say that Moltres just has way too many sets that fall into the amazing category. Sets such as Choice Specs, Life Orb 3 Attacks, and SubRoost are all spectacular. 2 versatile, 2 strong, 2 stupid. Get rid of it.


FUCK VILEPLUME

Now instead of concluding this post I would like to mention Pokemon that do not seem that broken as of now to many people because everything else is more broken but are actually also really stupid list. This list includes Pokemon like Kingdra, Noivern, Tyrantrum, and MAYBE Necrozma just because I dislike it. Goodbye thank you for reading my post I was planning on putting much more effort and detail into it than I did, but I instead got extremely lazy right away.

Please do not argue with me. All of my opinions are fact and if you even try I will end you.
 
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no unified art makes me sad :(

Seriously though this core is insanely powerful and wear each others checks down like crazy and basically blitzed through the ladder on my behalf. Fightium SD Lycanroc is a super underrated set that not only helps any team deal with shit like Yanmega and Ribombee with prio rock, but baits and kills strong steels and rocks like steelix opening a gaping hole for itself to spam SE. Liechi Hitmonlee is also insanely underrated – like the amount of 1 mon situations ive been in has been insane mainly because shitty ladder players rely way too much on fake out and scarfers for revenging which endure himon is essentially immune to, and with peoples only fight resits being stuff like Slowking or shit like that which this thing just ruthlessly one shots with Reversal anyways, its often literally impossible for people to deal with. Also just the fact that AAA hitmonlee is so scary and exists sikes people out and makes them recklessly hit you with the strongest move they have to take you out which is just like all the better.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nualpha-585088808
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nualpha-585090826
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nualpha-585094629
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nualpha-585099254
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nualpha-585235507
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nualpha-585238402

Code:
Lycanroc @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Accelerock
- Swords Dance
- Brick Break

Hitmonlee @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Reversal
- Mach Punch
- Stone Edge
- Endure
_____________

Also for the record fairium Whimsicott and sash Toad are pretty fucking awesome too aight signing out deuces
 
Here are a few of my favorite things to use in the tier right now.



Hitmonlee @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endure
- Mach Punch
- Reversal
- Stone Edge

-credits to Brawlfest for mentioning this first, i'm using it now and it is REALLY good.
  • It sweeps teams with relative ease, usually only needing 1 counter down and another weakened before it sets up.
  • It counters sun. (like actually sweeps an entire sun team, lol)
  • If you're like me stone edge never misses.
My only issue with the set is that I feel that eventually people are going to get used to this set and play around it by not attacking during endure, or just preparing teams with more than one stop to this monster. It isn't that hard to get the setup off, just be smart when to do it. Yeah Brawlfest totally talked about this first I am just a fan of it too.


Dragalge (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
  • It OHKO's things that shouldn't be OHKO'd. It does consume your momentum, but in my opinion it's worth it if you're trading that momentum for a kill on the opposing side.
  • It is REALLY easy to get this thing in safely. Its typing is nice enough to switch into most grass types and electric types, some water types, fire types, i mean its just really convenient how much it can switch into.
The toxic spikes set is pretty cool too I just prefer this set more. Also, is there a better move in place of thunderbolt? I don't use it much because usually the stabs deal more damage anyways. Any suggestions?

Calcs
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 227-268 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma: 420-496 (105.5 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 446-526 (113.1 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Persian-Alola: 272-320 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Also I second the idea that sash seismitoad is great, make sure you run poison touch with it
 
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The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
The Goomy's NU Alpha Official "What Should be Banned" List




Stoplight System:
Green: Completely Balanced, no need to even consider banning in current/future meta.
Yellow: May be unbalanced, probably need time in new meta to determine if broken.
Red: Broken, ban immediately in Beta phase.

In-Depth Discussion:

Green:


Since I don't think any of these Pokemon should be banned, I just want to discuss shortly a few Pokemon that I find to be underappreciated in the current metagame.


Assault Vest Incineroar is actually an amazing bulky pivot that can fit in on a lot of teams and provides some immediate power, unique defensive typing, and slow U-turn.


Although there are a lot of viable dark types, pursuit trappers, and fast mons, I find Mismagius to still be very effective against balance and stall. This is mainly due to the NP, Taunt set being very effective against these archetypes.


Any meta that has Steelix in it is a meta that Torterra will thrive in. Being able to come in on a lot of bulky Pokemon in the tier and basically getting a kill with a STAB Choice Banded attack makes Torterra heavily underused. It's effective at what it's been good at since XY.


Vileplume isn't on the list of Pokemon in the tier for some reason, but it is actually probably the most reliable answer to the fighting types in the tier. The fact that it has access to Moonblast now makes it even more reliable against threats such as Pangoro and Scrafty.


Togedemaru falls into the category of bulky pivot, one of my favorite roles a Pokemon can fulfill. It has different utility and can modify its set depending on what the team needs with Nuzzle, Zing Zap, Encore, Fake Out, U-Turn, Spiky Shield, and Toxic all being viable options.

Yellow:

This section shows Pokemon that I find to be unbalanced in some way in the current metagame, but do not think should be instantly banned. However, I will also make a "gun-to-my-head" prediction as to if I think these Pokemon will be ban-worthy in the early stages of Beta.


Noivern has a lot of positive things going for it in the current metagame. Its excellent speed tier of 123 combined with useful offensive and defensive typing make Noivern a scary Pokemon for offense to face. Combine that with the fact that Noivern is versatile enough to run a Stall-Breaker Taunt/Super Fang set makes it a huge bother in the current meta. The things holding Noivern back are its relatively bad Special Attack and Porygon2's existence. Overall, I think Noivern is manageable due to its weakness to SR and its poor, non-boostable Special Attack. Therefore I believe Noivern will not be banned in SM NU.


Tyrantrum is very scary in the current metagame as the only true, reliable (highly ranked) counters to it are Steelix, Rhydon, and Seismitoad. The versatility to run Scarf, Band, or DD (with or without Z Move) makes Tyrantrum very threatening in the tier. Its coverage is just good enough to break past certain would-be counters. Due to its raw power, typing, and versatility, I believe Tyrantrum will be banned in beta.


Another dragon type, Kingdra, is the next Pokemon I will discuss. Kingdra follows the trend of versatility and unpredictability that a lot of the "yellow" Pokemon possess. Kingdra can afford to run Special or Physical sets. Specs, RD, Agility, Crit-Dra are all viable on Special Attacking sets and Sub DD, or Chesto Rest are viable physical sets. Kingdra is also a great Z-move user and can choose which STAB it wants to use for a Z-move. The only thing holding Kingdra back is its relatively poor initial offensive output, as well as the prevalence of Porygon2 and Whimsicott. For that reason, I did not say that Kingdra should be instantly banned, but I do believe it will be banned in beta.


It's pretty funny how the cycle of NU works, Virizion is back. Virizion is interesting as I think it actually performs better now than it will once the meta settles out. Currently, its main counters such as Vileplume, Golbat, and Garbodor can be overwhelmed by the other threats in the tier. Virizion has the benefit of being able to run a special or physical set (CM and SD respectively) and has the capability to bypass checks with Continental Crush. However, I believe Virizion will not be banned in SM NU due to the rise in survivability of its counters when the meta settles out.


In my opinion, Hitmonlee is currently the second most threatening fighting type behind Pangoro. Its immediate raw power with Choice Band combined with its decent speed tier make it a great wall breaker. Unburden sets can be used to work well against offense combined with excellent priority in Mach Punch. Overall, this Pokemon puts pressure on in every game and is incredibly splashable as its set can be tailored to fit the team's struggles with ease. The unpredictability also makes Hitmonlee difficult to face. Despite these positive qualities, NU has many great fighting resists and ghosts that can counteract Hitmonlee (hence the rise in the new Reversal set), so I think Hitmonlee will not be banned in SM NU.


Emboar is probably the oddest Pokemon of all of the "yellow" Pokemon listed. However, its best quality is again its unpredictability. Band, Scarf, LO, Mixed, and Z-move are all effective sets that can be utilized by Emboar. The tier lacks good physical fire resists that don't lose to Grass Knot/Bloom Doom Solarbeam. It's limited speed is its major downfall, but I do believe that Emboar will be banned in beta.


Nintetales is an incredibly threatening Pokemon in the current tier. The ability to run Inferno Overdrive in the Sun with Nasty Plot turns Ninetales into an amazing wallbreaker in a decent speed tier of 100. I don't think that Drought is inherently broken, so I would rather see Ninetales banned or not banned as opposed to "Drought" (Same reason Speed Boost Blaziken was banned and not Speed Boost, it made that specific Pokemon too good, not all Pokemon with access to Drought are "too good"). The ability to set up the sun is an amazing asset as sun teams are hard, but not impossible to stop. Once threats like Dragalge and P2 are banned, sun will be even better. I believe that Ninetales on its own accord will be banned in beta if that's the direction the council and NUTLs want to take. Otherwise I believe Drought will be banned.


I believe Typhlosion is just as good as it was in XY. I didn't think it was ban worthy then and I don't think it is now. It is definitely going to be interesting to see its influence on the metagame without Porygon2 being a cold stop to it. Scarf and Specs are still basically the best sets while Expert Belt can still be run effectively, but is probably done better by Pokemon like Pyroar. Due to the influx of other threatening fire types, and the addition of bulky waters, I think it will not be banned in SM NU.


One of the scariest set up sweepers in the meta, Minior. Minior's ability, Shields down is a blessing in a passive metagame as it has the ability to set up in the face of threats that can really only hope to status it and can reliably change forms with Substitute if necessary. The downfall of Minior is the fact that it is relatively frail when its SR weakness is taken into account, it lacks immediate power, and Prankster Encore is fairly common in the tier. In addition, Steelix and Rhydon are great answers to Minior that can work effectively on most builds. I find Minior to be challenging to deal with due to the lack of great flying resists/steels in the tier, so it is restrictive on teambuilding in that way. However, due to its limitations, I believe Minior will not be banned in SM NU.


Sceptile is not as good as it was when it was last banned. The meta has gained some cool answers to it, fire types are prevalent, and Porygon2 beats almost any variant. However, it is in an amazing speed tier, has access to 2 great abilities, and can run either physical or special sets. The reason Sceptile is listed on the "yellow" list is that time will tell how the metagame treats its counters (such as Golbat, Togetic, and Garbodor) and Porygon2 will most likely be gone. All in all, I believe Sceptile will not be banned in SM NU.


This is probably a Pokemon not many people expected to see on here, Lilligant. Lilligant gained a new toy in Psychium-Z Dream Eater. This has pushed Lilligant from being a good Pokemon in my eyes to being a potentially broken one. The mind games of when you will reveal your Z-move to get through its would-be counters are insane and there are very few true counters such as Sap Sipper Miltank, Drapion, and Ferroseed. I believe that Lilligant is under the radar right now due to the multitude of broken threats in the tier, but I think it will be banned in beta.


Jynx is still super scary. The versatility that Jynx provides is still very good. It can use Scarf, Sash, Sub, and Z-move sets effectively. Z-Lovely Kiss is a cute new tool for Jynx that gives it a free set up opportunity and increased speed. This allows Jynx to perform well against all team archetypes. However, it still has a fairly limited movepool and the many Pursuit trappers in the tier make Jynx less of an issue than it could be. Therefore, I believe it will not be banned in SM NU.


Meloetta is a Pokemon that is currently held down by the metagame around it, but can definitely be a threat if things shake its way. Porygon2, ghosts, and Pursuit trappers make Meloetta's job difficult in the current meta. However, it can potentially become a top threat with access to many different sets such as Scarf, Specs, Sub CM, and Relic Song. I believe it will not be banned in SM NU.


Sigilyph is a very interesting Pokemon in the current meta. Although there are a multitude of good Pursuit trappers it still performs well by being able to burn Physical attackers with the Psycho Shift set, beat stall with the Sub CM set, and handle offense with the Sash set. All in all, Sigilyph is versatile and can alter its set to benefit whatever kind of team it is on. Porygon2's existence limits Sigilyph currently. I believe it will not be banned in SM NU.



I don't have much to say about Slowking and Slowbro. It will just be interesting to see if they end up doing what P2 is currently doing by walling a huge part of the settled out meta and choke out meta growth. I don't see this happening, so I believe they will not be banned in SM NU.

Red:

Pokemon in the Red category are Pokemon I believe should be banned immediately once NU enters Beta.


Ribombee is simply too powerful and fast for the NU metagame. Access to Quiver Dance and the ability to resist most priority in the tier makes Ribombee very difficult to revenge. In addition, Z-moves can be used to break through would-be counters. The only steel types in the meta do not have reliable recovery and can be worn down throughout the course of a game fairly easily. Poison types are better counters, but are generally not splashable enough (in my opinion) to function as dedicated counters. Choice Specs can also be used for immediate power. Therefore, I find Ribombee too much for the meta and think it should be banned immediately.


This is probably the most broken Pokemon in the tier, Yanmega. Tinted Lens makes predictions a thing of the past for Yanmega players and basically invalidates balanced teams as even bulky steel types get 2HKOed by this beast. In addition, a LO Speed Boost set is perfectly viable and can be run to help Yanmega work its way through offensive teams. This mon is overwhelming and cannot even really be "countered" in the teambuilder. Therefore I think it should be banned immediately.


Meet the Pokemon that literally invalidates stall, Pangoro. Pangoro is simply too strong, has too much coverage, and is too versatile for NU. It can beat stall all on its own with Mold Breaker SD sets, it can beat offense with Z-Snatch sets, and it is bulky enough to perform well against balance while healing itself with Drain Punch. Ban immediately.


Rotom-Mow is probably a controversial pick on this list. I feel that Rotom-Mow applies way too much pressure for the NU meta to handle. The only ground types in the tier get roasted by Leaf Storm, while Volt Switch (which is not weak) gives easy momentum. Lack of Spikes weakness and decent defensive typing makes Rotom-Mow an amazing pivot. It can work well against Offense with Scarf sets, balance with Specs Sets, and stall with access to Trick. Ban immediately.


Belly Drum Slurpuff has too few checks in the meta for it to be healthy. Its checks have to be at almost full to even fill their roles and Slurpuff has ample opportunities to set up in the current meta. It resists most priority and can heal itself with Drain Punch. Way too much for NU. Ban.


Dragalge is way too strong for the NU meta game. Adaptability makes it function way too well as a wall breaker to the point that basically nothing can switch in. Its excellent defensive typing allows it opportunities to come in and nuke things or even support its teammates with Toxic Spikes. Ban.


Moltres is too strong and provides too much utility to be healthy in the NU meta. The ability to run 3 attacks roost, scarf, specs, sub/wisp, and multiple z-moves makes Moltres difficult for any team to handle and adds a lot of uncertainty due to its versatility. The only good flying resists in the tier also lose to Bloom Doom and Fire Stab, so its coverage is basically perfect. Ban.


I believe that Xatu is ban-worthy. It's ability to alter its moveset to support its team, natural bulk, great speed tier, and Magic Bounce make it too good for the NU meta in my opinion. It invalidates a lot of hazard setters and forces a lot of Pokemon to alter their set in order to beat it. The splashability of this Pokemon is insane as it can basically be thrown on any team and immediately improve its matchup against a lot of teams that rely on specific Stealth Rockers with basically no opportunity cost to the Xatu user. CM is an effective set that allows Xatu to break stall and the bulky pivot set allows Xatu to maintain momentum and prevent hazards simultaneously. Ban.


There are no switch ins to Exploud under Trick Room and it has respectable bulk/typing. Ban.


Reference this post regarding my thoughts on Porygon2.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...on-read-post-153.3594836/page-13#post-7382277

Ban.


Despite its limited movepool, the versatility of Necrozma is what I believe makes it ban worthy. The ability to effectively run SD, CM, Sub CM, ID/CM, CM Autotomize, CM/ID Sub, CM/ID Moonlight, SR, and even Weakness Policy Autotomize make Necrozma a beast to deal with. It basically functions better than Musharna ever could as it has better stats across the board and its ability adds to its already impressive bulk. Necrozma basically forces every team to have a dark type or risk getting 6-0ed by it. Ban.

Thank you so much for reading through this! I hope this can open up some discussion and feel free to PM me if you have any questions, etc.

TL:DR

Yellow: Noivern, Tyrantrum, Kingdra, Virizion, Hitmonlee, Emboar, Ninetales, Typhlosion, Sceptile, Lilligant, Jynx, Meloetta, Sigilyph, Slowking, Slowbro.

Red: Ribombee, Pangoro, Dragalge, Rotom-Mow, Moltres, Xatu, Yanmega, Exploud, Porygon2, Necrozma
 
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The Goomy's NU Alpha Official "What Should be Banned" List




I believe that Xatu is ban-worthy. It's ability to alter its moveset to support its team, natural bulk, great speed tier, and Magic Bounce make it too good for the NU meta in my opinion. It invalidates a lot of hazard setters and forces a lot of Pokemon to alter their set in order to beat it. The splashability of this Pokemon is insane as it can basically be thrown on any team and immediately improve its matchup against a lot of teams that rely on specific Stealth Rockers with basically no opportunity cost to the Xatu user. CM is an effective set that allows Xatu to break stall and the bulky pivot set allows Xatu to maintain momentum and prevent hazards simultaneously. Ban.
You could literally c/p this section into an oras np thread and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference because of how generalized it sounds. It's also pretty hard to justify that there is basically no opportunity cost to running Xatu with Sigilyph in the tier. How has it improved since the end of oras? Spiritomb, Drapion, Cofag, Sneasel, Houndoom, Absol, and Incineroar certainly don't help it out. If anything I'd say Xatu has gotten worse in this metagame with the prominence of the aforementioned Pokemon and I definitely would not put it on par with Pokemon such as Yanmega, Slurpuff, or P2 in any capacity.
 
The Goomy :

Aside from a few choices I personally very much disagree with (Xatu mainly), you're list is actually kind of decent.

And on the topic of Drought vs Ninetales ban, I'd suggest banning Ninetales first if anything unless Vulpix Sun proves to be broken as well.
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
The Goomy most of these seem fairly accurate, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how Noivern could strike you as anything other than horribly broken. Keep in mind it roughly has the same speed and special attack as Ribombee, but trades the ability to set up for way more immediate firepower in the form of Hurricane (show me reliable resists) and Draco Meteor (again, show me the resists). In between those two STAB moves, only ridiculously bulky shit like P2 - which should get quickbanned like you already stated, so that's hardly a valid argument as to why Noivern might be fine - and a handful of decent Steel-types can come in, and the latter can still get roasted by a well-timed Flamethrower. Maybe you just play a lot of bulky, but everybody who tries their hands on fast offense will soon learn that when Noivern comes in, something will die.

Also, while Xatu definitely makes for an annoying and potent presence, the influx of Psychic-types that outclass it offensively and the Dark-types that can wall/kill/trap it seems enough to make Xatu manageable. I also don't quite see how Rotom-Mow is so good that it warrants a quickban, especially seeing how there's a decent amount of potent Grass-types and Dragon-types in NU that may not be able to block a Volt Switch, but definitely can stomach a few hits and retaliate.

Oh yeah, on the topic of Noivern and how to beat it, I thought of a Pokemon that has been overshadowed for a while now but might be able to fulfill a niche in this meta:



Probopass @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Power Gem
- Volt Switch
- Protect/Earth Power/Thunder Wave/Toxic/whatever

Unfortunately haven't been able to use this thing yet since I'm a bit busy, but in theory this seems like a decent alternative to Steelix due to the amount of special attackers walking (but mostly flying) around that are in dire need of a bulky Steel-type to check them. Probopass has crazy high special defense and provides one with valuable resistances that allow it to switch into the likes of Ribombee, Noivern, Yanmega, Moltres, Sigilyph, the list goes on. Maybe increasing its physical bulk a bit does something, but I'd say considering what it needs to check, going max/max on its special bulk isn't a bad idea at all. A few calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 120-144 (37 - 44.4%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 122-146 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Ribombee Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 102-120 (31.4 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 62-74 (19.1 - 22.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 103-122 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 136-162 (41.9 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(unless Exploud goes for the Focus Blast and magically hits, you can check it relatively safely, Boomburst does absolute pittance so that's nice)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 162-192 (50 - 59.2%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(after one Leaf Storm it obviously fails to do much damage so at that points you can just heal off damage with lefties and shit)


Most of these are easily OHKO'd or 2HKO'd in return due to weakness to Rock-type moves, and those special attackers that don't mind a Power Gem as much can be pivoted out of with Volt Switch. The final moveslot is up for grabs, Protect seems rather decent to me right now because Probopass appreciates the extra bit of passive recovery a fair amount, as a bonus you can imagine yourself in a situation where your opponent decided to try and take your Probopass out with a Hitmonlee or a Medicham and then you click Protect and those mons crash to their death. Earth Power ensures Steelix doesn't come in for free (in this case Magnet Pull might be ok as an ability), TWave or Toxic are fun if you want to spread status, etc. Try this Pokemon out!
 
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