Rockruff, Lycanroc (Midday and Midnight) Discussion

I can see Midday being OU viable (if not actually OU by usage) since Rock priority is a powerful and unique asset, it has a usable Attack stat, and its Speed stat is pretty good. The ability to consistently revenge Volcarona bar it holding the Rock resist Berry (maybe even through it with a Band?) and potentially Sand Rush Excadrill (need to calc that) will make it worth considering for some teams.
True, the rock priority is pretty great. That being said, Excadrill is still a much better option in the long run. Exca has the benefit of having a great typing, better attack, and bulk, providing it with more set up opportunities and being able to hit harder. Lycanroc on the other hand is really frail, and misses out on key moves like Ice Fang and Earthquake
 
Lycancroc (Midday): As good of a stat distribution it has, Lycancroc has shit coverage, in my opinion. It's only coverage Move are the Fang moves, Thunder and Fire Fang, and some Dark-type moves; however, given its stat distribution, access to Stealth Rock and Taunt, I'm thinking a Focus Sash lead along the lines of this:

Lycancroc (Midday) 75/115/65/55/65/112

Ability: Sand Rush

Item: Focus Sash

252 Atk / 252 Spd / 6 Def

Nature: Jolly

Stealth Rock

Taunt

Stone Edge

Fire Fang / Thunder Fang

The next best thing I can think of may be a Choice Band since it has a good Spd stat:

Lycancroc (Midday) 75/115/65/55/65/112


Ability: Steadfast / Sand Rush

Item: Choice Band

252 Atk / 252 Spd / 6 Def

Nature: Jolly

Accelrock / Crunch

Thunder Fang

Stone Edge

Fire Fang

What are your thoughts?

Side Note: It's best comparison I can think would be a slower version of regular Aerodactyl, which means, wherever Aerodactyl is tiered, Lycancroc will likely be in the same tier as well, maybe lower due to not having EQ, I don't know. Having access to Accelrock is nice; however, there exists Pokémon that have abilities that block it, which coincidentally have types that are super-effective against Rock.

EDIT: because Sucker Punch is not good on a Choice Set
 
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Karxrida

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I'd say Accelrock is non-negotiable on a Banded set since priority is priority, especially since Choiced Sucker Punch is such a bad idea. Sucker should only be used on a LO set, but even the if you need a Dark move you probably want Crunch.
 
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I'd say Accelrock is non-negotiable on a Banded set, especially since Choiced Sucker Punch is such a bad idea. Sucker should only be used on a LO set, but even the if you need a Dark move you have Crunch.
True, but at the same time, you have to consider that it's still at 40 base power. Also, there are more mons now that have ways of blocking priority. Even with STAB, it's still weaker than Crunch neutrally. Remember, there is no Technician boost or Adaptability boost. If anything, this move is still slotted on CB for now as the meta develops from here on. It can work, however, considering how well Aqua Jet is with Azumarill, so we'll see.
 
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Wait, WHAT? Is there any source? (They really regret making that thing huh)


Either way... Midnight Form is meh. I mean... Stone Edge No Guard is nice but that's all it gets (Because no one will ever run Crush Claw anyways). And for both forms the sets are closed (Not that there was much to expect from them to begin with. Pure Rock is not exactally known for coverage)
hold up whaaaat

where'd you get this?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-mine-resource-thread-most-info-here.3586425/

https://mobile.twitter.com/pokemon_PhD/status/796075822910177280
 
Midnight form looks strictly inferior to Midday. The only set I could see it doing better is a Rock Polish set since No Guard Stone Edge is great on such a set, and Rock Polish makes up for the difference in speed.
 
I'm pretty sure the move lists don't include tutor moves (assuming tutors are still a thing in this game). If that's the case, the coverage issue could be resolved, I could see it getting some cool stuff (superpower, maybe some other coverage moves, etc.).
 
How about running an Adamant nature one?

Lycanroc (Midday)@Focus Sash
Adamant
252 Attack/252 Speed/4 Def
Sword Dance
Sucker Punch
Accel Rock
Fire Fang
 
How about running an Adamant nature one?

Lycanroc (Midday)@Focus Sash
Adamant
252 Attack/252 Speed/4 Def
Sword Dance
Sucker Punch
Accel Rock
Fire Fang
That could work, but given Accelerock's low BP and all the nerfs to priority, it might still prefer Stone Edge. Its also fast enough to almost always go first
 
I really like Midnight form's moveset. Something like Swords Dance / Taunt / Sucker Punch / Stone Edge with No Guard seems very threatening. Probably not OU, but in lower tiers it seems like a potent breaker.
 
That could work, but given Accelerock's low BP and all the nerfs to priority, it might still prefer Stone Edge. Its also fast enough to almost always go first
Good point. So, Jolly would be better anyways, because it can work either as a support (With Stealth Rocks and Taunt) or as a Physical sweeper (SD, Stone Edge, etc)

Speed seems to be more important for this Pokemon (Midday Form)
 
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I'm pretty sure the move lists don't include tutor moves (assuming tutors are still a thing in this game). If that's the case, the coverage issue could be resolved, I could see it getting some cool stuff (superpower, maybe some other coverage moves, etc.).
They don't.
 
ANy word on what these 2 exclusive Z moves are? Maybe Midnight form gets an amazing Z-Move when used with counter? Like for 4 turns any damage it recives it automatically reflects back half of it.
 

AquaticPanic

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ANy word on what these 2 exclusive Z moves are? Maybe Midnight form gets an amazing Z-Move when used with counter? Like for 4 turns any damage it recives it automatically reflects back half of it.
Pretty sure there was a list with allthe Z-Moves info incluiding Signature ones, and there was no Lycanrockium-Z or whatevs. They can still use a Fighting or a Rock Z-Stone but the moves won't be diferent from other users
 
Pretty sure there was a list with allthe Z-Moves info incluiding Signature ones, and there was no Lycanrockium-Z or whatevs. They can still use a Fighting or a Rock Z-Stone but the moves won't be diferent from other users
Then what secret do they share with the starters?!
 
It's a real bummer neither of them got Ice fang/punch or earthquake. I can't see either of these two performing well in OU with such shit coverage. Hopefully when gen 7.5 comes out they get access to some cool tutor moves.

Cool designs tho
 
It's a real bummer neither of them got Ice fang/punch or earthquake. I can't see either of these two performing well in OU with such shit coverage. Hopefully when gen 7.5 comes out they get access to some cool tutor moves.

Cool designs tho
If and when 7.5 comes out, I can see Midnight getting a huge buff with all the punching moves and other typical tutor moves
 
hmm the more i think about it the more frustrated i get about how they treat lycanroc. they weren't very creative with its movepool. I can think of simple additions and fixes that improve on lycanroc (both formes) while still keeping the core nature of its appearance and what this pokemon is about.

Attacks i could easily see this pokemon getting but didnt. (both formes btw) ((general consensus is that they are physical attackers so i focused on that))

-play rough -super fang -double edge/take down -wild charge -ice fang of course -retaliate
-Dig -lick -pursuit -head smash -iron head? -if not earthquake at least bulldoze
-hone claws -superpower -smack down -aerial ace -shadow claw -fake out
-knock off -focus energy-u-turn -low kick -slash -night slash
-body slam -switcheroo -iron tail

Both Lycanroc's abilities are piss poor, as great as no guard stone edge is, they shouldve just gave night wolf an exclusive rock attack. no guard is just bad. and sure we can wait for move tutors but its not just the moves that disappoint me. its their choice in abilities as well.
so many abilities are better than keen eye and steadfast. Sand rush a very nice ability seems wasted on an already fast pokemon. Vital Spirit is okay but there is just so many other options. its not like this night wolf is based on not sleeping. its based on being batshit crazy, no?

-technician -scrappy -intimidate -adaptability -tough claws -sturdy - rock head
- sand force -solid rock -guts

all could have been better and well suited

I now feel that Lycanroc day should have been rock/normal type seeing as how normal types tend to get alot of coverage options. it would have been great STAB to have. the downside of that would have been x4 weak to fighting but honestly the trade off would have been worth it. its not like this guy was living a fighting type attack anyways. The benefits were far more favorable such as immunity to ghost, larger move pool, wider range of abilities to choose from and normal type STAB.

meanwhile, as obvious as Lycanroc night would have been if it were Rock/Dark type, it would have at least set it apart from day form (especially with the general consensus that day form is obviously superior than night form) As a dark type lycanroc would have had many dark type attacks available to it along with the STAB. it would have given it more character and thus giving it a wider amount of choices in abilities that even correspond to its official pokemon details " The stronger its opponent is, the more excited for battle Lycanroc becomes. It doesn’t mind getting hurt if it means victory in battle. Battles thrill it so much that its eyes glow" this screams moxie, defiant, hustle, guts, reckless. the abilities i even mentioned above would have worked just as great for night wolf. They shouldve tried much harder to set Night wolf apart from Day wolf.

When looking at this pokemon they have great designs. the rock/normal typing and rock/dark typing would have fit great. The only problem designwise that i have with Lycanroc, which most of you would think is trivial, would be its height. Day wolf (2'07") stands shorter than Herdier (another dog pokemon, who still gets to evolve to an even bigger dog 2'11) Lycanroc night stands at 3'7" which is the exact height for a Watchog (a bipedal rodent like pokemon). BUT i get it. size does not necessarily equate to power in pokemon, but i honestly feel that lycanroc lost some bulk and strength because of how it is portrayed according to height and weight. it weighs about as half as you'd expect a real wolf to be but heighted correctly. This pokemon is dang anorexic. This pokemon is in a strange area where the creators wanted it to be realistic but somehow fell short. My dog stands at a 1'8" but weighs just as much as a lycanroc. Its so frustrating. Pokemon are monsters are they not. Herdier is taller than the tallest wolf, it just boggles my mind. Im not saying Lycanroc deserves to be so big you can ride on it, but it should at least be bigger than furfrou, stoutland. (notice im mentioning alot of dog pokemon) Wolves are just more ferocious than domestic dogs, and yes Lycanroc is stronger than the other dog pokemon. but did it really have to cost it its bulk? The size that it couldve gotten due to being a large pokemon could have aided in its stats, bulk wise.

If you ask me Rockruff seems like the poster child for Sun and Moon, seeing as how often it shows up in trailers and on merchandise. It showed up the most in corocoro magazines barking out notes about the information released. The new manga/comic based on Alola is about a boy and his partner pokemon rockruff. You would've expected that the Rockruff family would've gotten better treatment. Rockruff may not have shared a special feature with the starters but it has been revealed that it shares a certain special feature with the box legendaries. ( Yes thats right, split evolution based on time of day/game version). How awesome is that?! yet it got shafted in movepool and ability and stats. There isnt even an exclusive z-move for Lycanroc.
This brings me to stats. I like the attack and speed stats of both forms, they seem... appropriate. But its not a secret that this pokemon lacks bulk. This pokemons BST sits at 487 which is not too bad. its better than mediocre but as i've stated before i really pictured this pokemon as part of the sun and moon poster child. And its not to say that pokemon with BSTs under 500 are lackluster. its all about distribution sometimes. That being said had lycanroc had better distribution you would be seeing that 55 sp.attack as 45, and then giving that +10 to anything else honestly, (preferably health for day and speed for night) heck that 13 points shy from 500bst would have helped.
When Lycanroc was first revealed i couldnt help feel that it was still incomplete, mostly based on the size of the pokemon and how lackluster it is. I felt that it needed to evolve once more just to step out of that skinny growing up phase. I was really hoping for an evolution. I mean its a wolf pokemon. Wolves are super popular animals, they are apex predators. They have history, we admire wolves, we are afraid of wolves. Lycanroc just didnt seem to fulfill that expectation of wolf based pokemon. (Its like pyroar all over again)
Lycanroc is a cool pokemon. I'll definitely pick it up in-game. My choice between sun and moon is basically based off of which lycanroc i wanted. And although it might be good in ru/nu or whatever the heck. Its just natural to want certain pokemon to be OU. Sadly it doesnt look like Lycanroc would contend strongly there. I feel like we just have to wait for future gens to maybe get the lycanroc we deserve by giving it what it needs. theres always hope. I guess i can be disappointed in the fact that had lycanroc been good it would have actually been unique for competitive play seeing as how there arent many rock types that sit at the speed tier that Lycanroc night and day are at. I think im just honestly going to hope for a future evolution for lycanroc or the aforementioned stat raises it could recieve in the future. An evolution would be great honestly. they can become two seperate pokemon with the vast improvements that it needs. eviolite lycanroc can be a thing, it wouldnt be broken neither just because it would have bad abilities and movepool. Lycanroc just doesnt look like final evolution material and it doesnt intimidate like how a wolf should. Lycanroc is super skinny and small. Honestly Lycanroc night form is suppose to be a bulky pokemon? thats what was intended, well let it evolve and let it fulfill that role. You may think lycanrocs BST are too high for it to to evolve but look at magmar, electabuzz, porygon2, rhydon. The former 2 are outclassed by their evolutions even with an eviolite. Porygon2 is still active because of eviolite fulffilling a different role, and eviolite Rhydon is very similar to rhyperior. so no i dont think that eviolite lycanroc would be broken on the basis that porygon2 is not broken. Yeah im hoping lycanroc can split evolve somehow. that just seems appropriate.. but eh, evolution of past pokemon in newer gens hasnt happened in a long time . i hope they bring this trend back.

if you read all this then, damn. nice. I've read the ideas you guys have offered for sets and i strongly appreciate them. keep up the good work! I feel like you guys are the true champs while i just complain
 
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The midday form appears pretty threatening great speed, good attack and swords dance. I could see it being a decent UU. Lack of coverage to hit Steel types really hinder it though. Rock type priorty can hit many of the pokemon thats faster than it for a super effective hit. The midnight form looks way cooler but I dont think its going to be as viable due to lack of speed.
 

Pikachu315111

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So when we first heard that Midnight Form wasn't getting a Signature Move (and instead focus on of all moves Counter) they'd tried to make it work. They didn't, I dare so they didn't even try.

Midday Form is just better. High Attack and Speed with a Rock-type Quick Attack is good enough. So how did they compensate Midnight Form? Took 30 off Speed and added 1 to HP, Defense, and Special Defense making them okay at best. BOO! Like if you're going to do that just make it slow and really give its HP, Attack, Defense, and Special Defense a buff. Though its not all bad for Midnight Form, it got No Guard so 100% Stone Edge and Rock Slide (though sadly nothing else).

For STAB I think Midday Form is okay with Accelerock though both get Rock Slide and Stone Edge. For coverage they both also get Crunch and Brick Break. It also gets nice Egg Moves with Fire Fang, Thunder Fang, Sucker Punch, and Thrash. They both also get Roar, Stealth Rock, and Rock Polish which helps them in different ways. Signature Moves isn't the only difference, Midday gets Quick Guard while Midnight gets Taunt & Reversal.
 
I just wish it got U-turn (maybe even volt-switch if you wanna argue static fur electric lmao) at the super very least, since I think with its bulk, the day-form could've been great at hit-and-run tactics. As for Mid-Night, it would've been great if his special was a form of counter, where it basically is a counter and mirror move packed into one package. I feel like this would make it a lot more scary and overall work with him as he's still not necessarily all that bulky. It would turn more into a game of "should I attack it or set up on it, what if it attacks me if I set up" removing the layer of "well if I attack should I fake it out with a physical or special?" To tell you the truth I feel like this entire gen is trying to inspire people to use more weather and terrain in the competitive scene with how many Pokemon are implying to be built around it. For example I'm sure Lycanroc is actually pretty great in a Sandstorm with that leap in speed AND special defense; just too bad it doesn't even learn it lmao.

That all said I largely agree with what LavaPlume had to say. It just seems very half-baked, especially for a Pokemon that I'm sure is going to be extremely popular.
 
Which ability do you think is more useful for Midday and Midnight?

Personally, between Sand Rush and Steadfast, i found Sand Rush more useful for Midday since Steadfast depends on a move from the opponent, and Sand Rush depends on weather condition by either you or your opponent.

As for Midnight...well, i don't see why No Guard isn't the best choice.
 
So what reason to run Midnight form at all? I see barely any moves worth mentioning for its no guard ability besides STAB.
 

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