Policy Review RM Update

[bugmaniacbob]

Introduction

In this thread, we will hopefully be sorting out all of the slightly confused rules pertaining to VGMs and what moves are allowed or disallowed in any given situation (note that we will not be talking about such other details as movepool limits and required moves yet) - At this point in time, we simply want to decide on how we want to go about creating a list of VGMs and then, later, proceed to create one. As some of us may not necessarily be aware of how the VGM lists and philosophy came to be established, I feel it is worth going over the threads that led up to the status of the VGM lists today.

Philosophy

The concept of "Very Good Moves" came about in response to the growing realisation that CAP movepools tended to include far more moves than were strictly necessary, as documented in this thread, which introduced the idea of strict movepool limits in response to the Pokemon's BSR, with different limits on good moves and total moves in order to preserve movepool flavour (type-move and move-move requirements were also added for similar reasons). Here, a "V. good move" was defined as "any move that has ever been a "most commonly used move" for any "good Pokemon"", where a "most commonly used move" was "any move that has EVER been used enough on a pokemon to get listed distinctly on the monthly detail reports for that pokemon on any competitive ladder" and a "good Pokemon" was "any Pokemon that has ever been used more than 3000 times in a month on the Standard, Uber, or UU ladder". This gave an objective list of 280 Very Good Moves and was the standard for the latter part of DPP, as well as all the DPP CAPs being revised to comply with the new regulations added.

When BW rolled around, we no longer had Shoddy Battle server statistics that would allow us to calculate VGMs in the same way and no longer had a stable metagame from which to draw them. As such, I proposed here that we change our method of assigning VGM status from an objective to a subjective measure, through eyeballing. This was not entirely a new idea, as a list of "competitive moves" as a resource for movepool makers had existed for a while prior to the introduction of Very Good Moves (and indeed still remains on-site). As a consequence, the definition of the VGM was changed to "a move that is considered by the combination of its power, accuracy, effect chance, move priority, power points, and overall type coverage to be of distinct individual competitive advantage in a given movepool". In practice this typically meant having more than 70 Base Power, weighted by accuracy, unless it was of a type that could hit a relevant Pokemon for 4x damage, such as Fire Fang for Scizor, or was the best available option for its type, such as Night Slash. There were a couple of problems that accompanied the changeover from objective to subjective means; first, that certain moves that were only competitively useful under certain conditions, such as Curse and Dynamicpunch, were difficult to place, and second, that this opened the floor to errors of judgement, and these were things that led to a number of problems with the VGM lists in late BW, when we had more information to work with. The first was partly solved with further rules that also lessened the strain on fitting moves into movepools, while the second I attempted to solve by re-assessing the VGM lists here, though nothing ever came of it.

Current Discussion

Why is any of this relevant? Well, before we begin anything we ought really to make a final judgement call on how we are going to go about making this list and how we are going to go about making updated lists in the future, as well as what if any of the current guidelines as to allowed moves we are going to keep, or further guidelines we wish to introduce. As the last link makes clear, Doug was working on finding a new objective measure for Very Good Moves around a year ago, though from what I've seen of CAP6 it does not look like this was finished in time. Even so, now that we have Pokemon Showdown! and Antar is pulling up vast amounts of stats every month, it doesn't seem at all implausible that we might be able to create an objective list again in the future. Hence, I feel it is worth first going over the options that we have going forward:

• We create an objective list of Very Good Moves based on usage stats. The current subjective Very Good Moves list will be taken and updated for XY, and used to update the currently on-site Competitive Moves article.
• We create a subjective list of Very Good Moves based on competitive worth, with a view to creating an objective list in the future for use in later XY CAPs.
• We create a subjective list of Very Good Moves based on competitive worth, and continue to use this list with periodic updates for the duration of XY.

In short, we either have the one, the other, or the one then the other. In my own personal view, I never particularly liked the objective VGM lists, largely because they included moves of dubious worth and excluded some that might have been better choices, and seemed to limit to too great an extent the flexibility that a stage such as movepool building enjoys, but on the other hand they introduce an objectivity that would allow us to do away with the current rulings on outclassed or repeated moves. Speaking of which:

• Curse only counts as a Very Good Move for Pokemon that are not of the Ghost-type.
• Legendary Pokemon signature moves are automatically disallowed for all CAPs.
• Move copies count as VGMs, but only count once as Very Good Moves when more than one are present in a movepool.
• If a VGM is completely outclassed by another VGM in the movepool, the two moves only count together as one VGM.
• All moves made competitively viable by an ability are also considered VGMs.
• If a VGM is of absolutely no competitive use to a specific CAP, then the Movepool Leader has the ability to make it not count as a VGM for that CAP.

These rulings were introduced both to prevent specific circumstances from allowing a large number of moves that became competitively viable under those circumstances from being added with impunity, to allow flexibility for the Movepool Leader to allow or disallow moves if the rare situation where this is actually necessary comes up (partly a response to a bizarre circumstance in CAP11 involving the banning of Needle Arm for whatever reason), and finally to ease the strictness of limits where flavour is concerned without compromising competitive integrity (for example, if a user wanted to include Leaf Blade but did not have room for both it and Seed Bomb, where there is no reason to not have Seed Bomb as a Tutor move). Now, these were largely introduced to combat specific but rare eventualities and have not really been visited since; as such, I feel that they merit looking at too. I won't introduce a poll for this (see the end of this post for how voting will be conducted) unless one person thinks there is reason to remove or add a particular guideline; at that point, this will be up for discussion.

-----

What to expect next

• Formulation of the VGM and Competitive Move lists
• Discussion of movepool limits and their relationship with BSR
• Discussion of required moves and the move-move and type-move tables
• Updating the relevant on-site articles
• Anything else I've forgotten

 

[Birkal]

Just wanted to emphasize that we're primarily focusing on the philosophy with the first part of this discussion. We can't really make a VGM list until we decide whether we want it to be subjective or objective. In terms of the objective stance, I'd personally like to invite Antar to see if he has any thoughts on how to meaningfully gather data that we can use to mold a VGM list. Once we have made a decision as a Policy Review Committee, we'll utilize this thread to tackle the final list bugmaniacbob made for us in the original post.

Hop to it!

 

[jas61292]

So as far as how we should determine what VGMs are, I am pretty much completely behind keeping it subjective. While I love the idea of having an objective method of determining what VGMs are, I can't really see any way to do it that is actually objectively measuring the moves themselves. Any such method based on statistics will be measuring, at best, move use, when what we care about is not the use of the move but the moves intrinsic quality. Additionally, looking at the method used in the past, it is really measuring Pokemon a lot more than it is measuring moves. For TM or Tutor moves with huge distribution this might work out pretty well, but not always. And it doesn't even come close to being an accurate measure for moves with poor distribution among mediocre Pokemon.

That problem there is easiest to illustrate, such as with something like Attack Order. Despite being strictly better than X-Scissor, due to the mechanic measuring use, and not move quality, the fact that it is only available to one bad Pokemon will cause its usage to be insignificant, and it to possibly be measured as not as good as it really is. This is not the only problem though. Even if a move does have huge distribution, if the distribution is among Pokemon with no real use for it, then it won't get used, even if it is good. While I can't think off the top of my head of any great examples of this, I think you can imagine it as a more extreme case of something like Dark Pulse. Clearly Dark Pulse is a competitive move, but a ton of the Pokemon that get it also get Shadow Ball, and for a ton of Pokemon, other than Dark types, Shadow Ball is often considered the better choice. Make this situation a bit more extreme than it is, and you could easily have a situation where a competitive move with good distribution is not considered very good because those Pokemon that have it have a better choice. This is even more obvious within one type. Take Fire moves for example. Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Fusion Flare, Searing Shot, Fire Pledge, Flame Burst. All damaging Fire moves with reasonable accuracy and power. Even the last one at only 70 power could definitely be considered a move worth using for some Pokemon with Hidden Power having been nerfed. I would argue that every single one of these (except possibly the last one) is a VGM, yet I would guarantee you that you will never see Fire Pledge on any usage base list of VGMs simply because every Pokemon that has it has the other options, which are better. But that doesn't make it not a very good move. We are not putting moves on an existing Pokemon, we are making our own, and we don't have to give it any more Fire moves if we thought it would be ill advised to do so. An 80 power, 100% accurate Fire move isn't bad for our purposes, even if it is for most or all existing Pokemon.

Overall, I just don't see any way to do an objective measurement that actually measures the moves themselves, and, since the moves are what actually matter, we really have no better option that going subjective on this.

As for the other rules, there are only two that I think might need changing. First, the rule on Curse. This rule doesn't necessarily need changing as much as it simply needs readdressing. If by whatever VGM deciding method we go with, it is a VGM for non ghosts but not for ghosts, then it is fine to keep. If not, then we get rid of it. Not much to say on that, but I think it is just something important to remember when we do whatever we do.

Secondly, I think the last rule, the one on allowing the Movepool leader to make something not a VGM, needs to go. It completely defeats the purpose of the VGM rules, and serves no benefit to the project. The limits on VGMs are not simply limits on power, but also limits to help with the realism of the Pokemon. To simply ignore powerful moves because it is not good on the individual Pokemon circumvents this for no good reason. With that said, I do think there might be some situations where this is actually valid, so simply rewording it might be better. What I mean is this: I would consider it inappropriate to call Dark Pulse not a VGM on a Physical Ghost who also has shadow Ball. Simply because the move is inferior on the given Pokemon does not take away the fact that it is a VGM. However, "inferior" is the key work to me. If in a given situation, the move actually legitimately loses the thing that makes it a VGM, then it is fine to discard it as a VGM, in my opinion. Say, for example, Rest is decided to be a VGM. If we were to make a Pokemon who's only ability was Insomnia, then, in this situation, Rest loses the very thing that makes it a VGM. In such a case it is literally not a very good move. Another example might be Nuzzle on a Pokemon who's only ability was Sheer Force, where the move goes from an un-tauntable T-Wave to a pathetically weak attack.

To put it in other words, I think we should change the rule from "If a VGM is of absolutely no competitive use to a specific CAP, then the Movepool Leader has the ability to make it not count as a VGM for that CAP," to "If a move would no longer have the qualities that make it a VGM if used by a specific CAP, then the Movepool Leader has the ability to make it not count as a VGM for that CAP."

I think the important thing is to make sure that for all things involving VGMs, we make sure we are judging moves, NOT judging Pokemon.

 

[Bughouse]

For the sake of efficiency, I would like to be behind the objective method. The abilities banlist update took a decently substantial time to do, and the VGM list will only take longer. However, I have similar concerns about using an objective method to those jas raised above.

I do still advocate for the systematized method based on practicality. It is undeniably true that Attack Order is a superior move to X-Scissor, and by extension it therefore seems bizarre to use a system that would list X-Scissor as a VGM but not Attack Order. This is indeed infinitely more a judgment of Vespiquen than it is of Attack Order. However, it is also undeniable that an objective measure is superior, provided it is not grossly deficient as compared to the subjective system. It will be more efficient, less in need of PRC updates in the future, and less prone to having issues like Aerial Ace being listed as a VGM, but Wing Attack not (they're identical moves unless your opponent is lowering your accuracy.)

So what I will propose is a bridging of the gap. Let's use an objective analysis of the actual usage data, augmented with some common sense:

First, attacking moves of effective power 70/75/80? and up, which is to say Power x Accuracy, are automatically made VGMs.
Second, additional attacking VGMs will be found through objective data on move usage.
Third, non-attacking moves that boost any combination of stats as a whole by +2 (except for Accupressure), are automatically made VGMs.
Fourth, additional non-attacking moves will be found through objective data on move usage.
Finally, attacking and non-attacking moves that strictly outclass any of these VGMs, but failed to be named VGMs due to low usage, will then also be made a VGM.

I wrote this system up quickly and I'm sure it has holes in it currently. Still, a policy like this will give us a base that is likely close to being totally sufficient. The biggest whole with this system would probably be a move like Acid Spray or Flame Charge, one with low base power but a superb secondary effect. But I think starting with an objective base is the way to go. It will save us a lot of time in the end, and we can still apply some common sense tweaks once we see what the data suggests. I'm all for using the objective resources Showdown is able to provide, rather than starting lengthy arguments about subjective views.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

a quote

The trouble with this compromise between subjective and objective VGM lists is that, well, it doesn't solve the problems with either of them. We already had a relative baseline for attacking moves where those with 70+ base power were considered VGMs, except where the type in question hit a very notable threat for 4x damage, which was used when we were making subjective lists, and we already put all +2 stat boosting moves as VGMs. Your list uses an objective base, and then alters based on common sense, at which point it is no longer strictly objective - and at that point we really ought to cut out the middle man and just make the whole thing subjective, because, well, it's just so much easier.

I'm not certain that an objective system would be less in need of future updates than a subjective one. We based the subjective lists off our knowledge of the metagame at the time, and well, the usage statistics are based off the same. Moves such as SolarBeam were never on the VGM list for the entirety of BW, even after Drought Ninetales was released, but this would have been the same case whether we had used an objective or a subjective system for compiling the lists. In the same vein, I'm not sure how you can say that with the objective measure, Aerial Ace would be a VGM and Wing Attack would not be, when a usage-based objective list is pretty much the only way that this could come about (I am fairly certain that this issue was a relic from the older objective VGM lists). I'll grant other examples, though, such as how Fiery Dance of all things was not made a VGM in BW purely because, well, I guess I kind of forgot about it (and so did everybody else).

As far as a sufficient base goes, we already have one. The current VGM list, plus the alterations that were proposed late in BW but were never implemented, is more than a sufficient base. We can, like we did previously, create a mock-up new list, propose moves that should be added or removed, and then all of these moves could be easily voted on with a simple yes or no option. It wouldn't be difficult at all, and indeed I'm uncertain why the ability banlist discussion never went to a vote, so I'm not certain that that is a fair comparison to be making. More to the point, we will be making this list anyway. The competitive moves article on-site is designed to list all moves that are considered competitively viable - in other words, very good moves - for the benefit of movepool makers, and as such the suggestion that an objective measure would be more efficient is not entirely accurate.

So yes, I would say that an objective measure would be superior, if indeed such a measure could be found that was not flawed in some respect. Rather than designing one of these and then spending our time arguing about that, it would seem that a better use of our time would be to use that energy to discuss and then vote on the VGM lists.

another quote

This post is a pretty pitch-perfect summary of how I stand on the matter, and jas said it, it has to be said, a lot better than I could have, so I encourage you all to read it. One point I would like to slightly address is the one on movepool leaders being able to declare a move not a VGM - to make it clear, the purpose of this rule was to allow for flavour where movepools may not be able to fit in all the VGMs and leave room for flavour VGMs, where said flavour VGM had no competitive application whatsoever. Like Dark Pulse on Gengar, for example. For my part, I'm ambivalent about this because, well, this rule has never been invoked, never needed to be invoked, I struggle to think of an eventuality where it will need to be invoked, and I'm not sure how many people actually know it exists anyway.

 

[Nyktos]

I think that in the end we need some level of subjectivity. It may be okay to list some objective characteristics and say that moves with those characteristics must be on the list, but I can't imagine an objective measure that accurately reflects reality while avoiding the problem of judging users rather than moves wouldn't end up looking like Frankenstein's monster. I'm definitely sympathetic to where srk is coming from but I think bmb is correct that it's never going to quite work without being able to just make some judgement calls.

I support removing the rule about de-VGMifying something; we always leave room for some non-competitive flavour VGMs in our movepool limits anyway. The kind of movepools that would really need the invocation of such a rule are the kind of movepools that just shove everything vaguely competitive that's allowed in and then try make the flavour work. We don't need to encourage those.

 

[Birkal]

There's not a single part of jas61292's post that I disagree with. Subjectivity is the way to go here, as far as I can see. I don't think it will take that long to update the current VGM list; not that many moves were added to Generation 6, and only a few previous moves were updated. I like using a system, such as the one srk1214 suggests, as guidelines, not necessarily as the law. Subjectivity means that we can make a list for CAP 1, reflect on it after the process, and tweak it as necessary. I'm cool with the edit too.

 

[Stratos]

Honestly most of the gen six moves are absolutely useless (rototiller lmao) and only a couple of moves got changed since generation v. It shouldn't be hard at all to update the vgm list, let's get crackin n__n. An objective vgm list is any programmer's wet dream but I feel like it's probably worse than a subjective one anyway, since there are so many variables and contingencies for every CAP project. I don't see why we can't fix up the vgm list within a couple days.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Brief IRC log with opinions of PRC members who haven't gotten around to posting here yet

<bugmaniacbob> VGM summary: do we want to use common sense or statistics to make our vgm list?
<ginganinja> common sense
<ginganinja> done
<DetroitLolcat> common sense
<ginganinja> statistics are shit
<DetroitLolcat> Common sense without statistics works, statistics without common sense does not.

...

<DetroitLolcat> We should make a list, but the TL or TLT (either? both?) should be able to change it.
<DetroitLolcat> err, tailor it to a specific CAP.
<bugmaniacbob> change it? that's different to the thread consensus
<bugmaniacbob> pray elaborate
<bugmaniacbob> as in, what would you say constitutes requiring a change to the VGM list?
<DetroitLolcat> Just that if a CAP can use a non-VGM in a way that makes it obviously viable, it should count as a VGM at one of the leader's discretion.
<bugmaniacbob> well, we already have sort of a provision for that
<bugmaniacbob> vis-a-vis abilities that make moves viable, like Technician or No Guard
<DetroitLolcat> Right, I'm mostly talking about retaining that provision.
<bugmaniacbob> ok
<bugmaniacbob> well, I don't think anybody would argue with you about that

...

<capefeather> a mix of both
<bugmaniacbob> in what sense?
<capefeather> or rather
<capefeather> an objective system that takes certain things into account better than gen 4's VGM system did
<bugmaniacbob> what would this system entail?
<capefeather> basing it entirely on usage stats ignores the similarities between moves
<capefeather> it seems like it worked pretty well for non-attacking moves, but not for attacking moves
<bugmaniacbob> so, some form of weighting based on the characteristics of the moves themselves?
<bugmaniacbob> or partially based on usage and partially based on subjective judgement?
<capefeather> I'm not entirely sure
<capefeather> it bothered me that gen 4's VGM system accounted for technician but not STAB, for example
<capefeather> which I feel pretty safe in blaming for hyper beam being on there
<bugmaniacbob> so, then, this is a theoretical optimum? like srk's suggestion?
<capefeather> I think subjective judgment should help inform how we make the system
<bugmaniacbob> but not define the base?
<capefeather> I suppose

...

<DHR> oh
<DHR> I am pretty happy with where the thread is going
<DHR> We didnt have a "strict" VGM list for Gen 5
<DHR> And I think people were pretty sensible
<bugmaniacbob> so leaning towards subjective, but generally ambivalent?
<bugmaniacbob> or just leaning towards subjective?
<DHR> Well, I'd like to see it just be common sense, but yeah, more towards subjective

...

<DarkSlay> As I said yesterday, I lean towards subjective (I agree with what jas says), but clarifications need to be made about VGM decisions made in PRC vs. subjective decisions made by the Movepool leader.
<bugmaniacbob> all right, and you're still planning to post on what we discussed earlier?
<DarkSlay> Yeah, just didn't have time last night.
<DarkSlay> I should have time soon tonight though.
<bugmaniacbob> ok, I was just wondering if you wanted me to bring it up, but if you have time I'll leave it to you

 

[paintseagull]

Secondly, I think the last rule, the one on allowing the Movepool leader to make something not a VGM, needs to go. It completely defeats the purpose of the VGM rules, and serves no benefit to the project. The limits on VGMs are not simply limits on power, but also limits to help with the realism of the Pokemon.

agree

<DetroitLolcat> Common sense without statistics works, statistics without common sense does not.

agree

This debate is moreso about automated/manual as opposed to subjective/objective, as I see it. Nobody's willing to accept a strictly automated measure. We'd still have to define an arbitrary usage cutoff, and such a cutoff would be difficult to define. It seems that everyone's sense of what is/isn't a VGM is fairly solidified until they actually have to come up with a set of rules to define them. There doesn't even seem to be any sort of efficiency gain in doing something automated. Therefore, a manual list based on our understanding of what is and isn't worth using in the competitive game is just fine. There are too many special cases for an automated method to be worthwhile.

Instead, if there's some debate as to what power level is good enough to be VGM, or if a particular non-attacking move is or isn't a VGM, let's then turn to usage data to settle the question.

 

[nyttyn]

I'm just gonna say that I think a purely subjective, manual approach is the only way to go. In spite of usage and availability, what a "very good move" is going to be impossible to determine by any sort of usage stats. Consider the following:

Many pokemon are forced to use shitty moves
For example, for all intents and purposes, Quick Attack is a really shitty move. It has priority, but it's a 40 BP normal attack, it isn't going to do jack shit. Yet Terrakion is forced to use it (or sacred sword/x-scissor i guess) since its movepool is a completely barren wasteland (though admittedly its dual stabs are just THAT GOOD but that's neither here nor there).

Many good moves are stuck on shitty mons
See: Attack Order. That's literally all I have to say on the matter.

Quite a few of the 'best' STAB moves...actually aren't that great
Really, in a perfect world, nothing would even dream of using anything under 80 BP. Yet some types, like Physical Ghosts are stuck with poor offensive options that are currently only "Very Good" by the sole fact that they have zero competition. Being the best by default due to a lack of competition doesn't make something good by default as well.

People like to use gimmicky things
We all know this one pretty well so I won't elaborate. This will definitely throw a monkey wrench into any sort of attempt to use stats.


Due to these factors, I think it's pretty safe to say that statistics are pretty worthless here.

tl;dr i agree pretty much with jas61292 here.

 

[Birkal]

It seems like we're all relatively on the same page here. Let's go about updaing our VGM list subjectively / manually / with common sense. If anyone in the future would like to present an automated way of creating such a list, the PRC will review the proposal at that time. But for now, it seems like handling each move on a case-by-case basis will suit our purposes. If there's some dissent here, please feel free to call me out on it. Since we all seem to be in agreement, there's no need in stopping progress.

I know that bugmaniacbob has a specific outline for going about updating moves. Have at it. Please try to be brief with this (that goes to everyone in this thread). There is a ton of ground to cover when it comes to manually updating the VGM list, and we will need to be well-versed in being concise. Seriously, if y'all go on to write essays for each move, I'll prune them for you. Yee' be warned.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Copy that, staff sergeant.

This is the current list of VGMs on-site, with the appropriate name updates made:

Current Very Good Moves

Acid Armor
Acid Spray
Acrobatics
Aerial Ace
Agility
Air Slash
Amnesia
Aqua Jet
Aqua Tail
Aromatherapy
Attack Order
Aura Sphere
Autotomize
Avalanche
Barrier
Baton Pass
Belly Drum
Blaze Kick
Blizzard
Block
Body Slam
Bone Rush
Bonemerang
Bounce
Brave Bird
Brick Break
Bug Buzz
Bulk Up
Bullet Punch
Bullet Seed
Calm Mind
Charge Beam
Circle Throw
Clear Smog
Close Combat
Coil
Confuse Ray
Cosmic Power
Cotton Guard
Counter
Crabhammer
Cross Chop
Cross Poison
Crunch
Curse*
Dark Pulse
Defend Order
Destiny Bond
Detect
Discharge
Double-Edge
Draco Meteor
Dragon Claw
Dragon Dance
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Rush
Dragon Tail
Drain Punch
Drill Peck
Drill Run
Dual Chop
Earth Power
Earthquake
Electro Ball
Encore
Endeavor
Energy Ball
Eruption
Extrasensory
Extreme Speed
Facade
Fake Out
Fire Blast
Fire Fang
Fire Punch
Flame Charge
Flamethrower
Flare Blitz
Flash Cannon
Focus Blast
Focus Punch
Foul Play
Frost Breath
Frustration
Gear Grind
Giga Drain
Glare
Grass Knot
Gravity
Growth
Gunk Shot
Gyro Ball
Hammer Arm
Haze
Head Charge
Head Smash
Heal Bell
Heal Order
Healing Wish
Heat Crash
Heat Wave
Heavy Slam
High Jump Kick
Hidden Power
Hone Claws
Horn Leech
Howl
Hurricane
Hydro Pump
Hyper Voice
Ice Beam
Ice Fang
Ice Punch
Ice Shard
Icicle Crash
Icicle Spear
Ingrain
Iron Defense
Iron Head
Iron Tail
Jump Kick
Knock Off
Lava Plume
Leaf Blade
Leaf Storm
Leech Seed
Light Screen
Lovely Kiss
Low Kick
Mach Punch
Magic Coat
Magnet Rise
Mean Look
Meditate
Mega Kick
Megahorn
Memento
Meteor Mash
Milk Drink
Mirror Coat
Moonlight
Morning Sun
Muddy Water
Nasty Plot
Nature Power
Night Daze
Night Shade
Night Slash
Outrage
Overheat
Pain Split
Payback
Perish Song
Petal Dance
Poison Jab
Power Whip
Protect
Psychic
Psyshock
Pursuit
Quick Attack
Quiver Dance
Rain Dance
Rapid Spin
Razor Shell
Recover
Reflect
Refresh
Rest
Return
Reversal
Roar
Rock Blast
Rock Polish
Rock Slide
Roost
Scald
Seed Bomb
Seismic Toss
Shadow Ball
Shadow Claw
Shadow Punch
Shadow Sneak
Sharpen
Shell Smash
Shift Gear
Signal Beam
Sky Uppercut
Slack Off
Sleep Powder
Sleep Talk
Sludge Bomb
Sludge Wave
Soft-Boiled
Spark
Spider Web
Spikes
Spore
Stealth Rock
Stockpile
Stone Edge
Stored Power
Storm Throw
Stun Spore
Substitute
Sucker Punch
Super Fang
Superpower
Surf
Switcheroo
Swords Dance
Synthesis
Tail Glow
Tail Slap
Taunt
Teeter Dance
Thrash
Thunder
Thunder Fang
Thunder Wave
Thunderbolt
Thunder Punch
Toxic
Toxic Spikes
Tri Attack
Trick
Trick Room
U-turn
Vacuum Wave
Volt Switch
Volt Tackle
Water Spout
Waterfall
Weather Ball
Whirlwind
Wild Charge
Will-O-Wisp
Wish
Wood Hammer
Work Up
X-Scissor
Yawn
Zen Headbutt

And this is the list of new moves for XY:

New Moves

Aromatic Mist
Baby-Doll Eyes
Belch
Boomburst
Celebrate
Confide
Crafty Shield
Dazzling Gleam
Disarming Voice
Draining Kiss
Eerie Impulse
Electric Terrain
Electrify
Fairy Lock
Fairy Wind
Fell Stinger
Flower Shield
Flying Press
Forest's Curse
Freeze-Dry
Grassy Terrain
Happy Hour
Hold Back
Infestation
Ion Deluge
King's Shield
Magnetic Flux
Mat Block
Misty Terrain
Moonblast
Mystical Fire
Noble Roar
Nuzzle
Parabolic Charge
Parting Shot
Petal Blizzard
Phantom Force
Play Nice
Play Rough
Powder
Power-Up Punch
Rototiller
Spiky Shield
Sticky Web
Topsy-Turvy
Trick-or-Treat
Venom Drench
Water Shuriken

And finally, the lists of outclassed, equivalent, and legendary exclusive moves from BW.

Legendary signature moves

Aeroblast    Fusion Flare    Mist Ball    Secret Sword
Blue Flare    Glaciate    Psycho Boost    Seed Flare
Bolt Strike    Heart Swap    Psystrike    Shadow Force
Crush Grip    Ice Burn    Relic Song    Spacial Rend
Dark Void    Judgment    Roar of Time    Techno Blast
Doom Desire    Lunar Dance    Sacred Fire    V-create
Freeze Shock    Luster Purge    Sacred Sword
Fusion Bolt    Magma Storm    Searing Shot

Equivalent moves

Acid Armor = Iron Defense = Barrier
Agility = Rock Polish    
Aromatherapy = Heal Bell    
Block = Mean Look = Spider Web
Cosmic Power = Defend Order    
Detect = Protect
Frustration = Return    
Heal Order = Milk Drink = Recover = Slack Off = Soft-Boiled
Howl = Meditate = Sharpen
Moonlight = Morning Sun = Synthesis
Roar = Whirlwind    
Switcheroo = Trick

Outclassed moves

Attack Order > X-Scissor
Autotomize > Agility = Rock Polish
Bulk Up > Sharpen = Howl = Meditate
Coil > Bulk Up
Coil > Hone Claws
Cotton Guard > Acid Armor = Iron Defense = Barrier
Dragon Dance > Sharpen = Howl = Meditate
Explosion > Self-Destruct
Growth > Work Up
Head Charge > Double-Edge
Hi Jump Kick > Jump Kick
Hone Claws > Sharpen = Howl = Meditate
Leaf Blade > Seed Bomb
Quiver Dance > Calm Mind
Shift Gear > Dragon Dance
Shift Gear > Agility = Rock Polish
Swords Dance > Sharpen = Howl = Meditate
Tail Glow > Nasty Plot
Work Up > Sharpen = Howl = Meditate

So, we need to process all of this information. How are we going to go about doing this?

-----------

How we are going to go about doing this. Probably.

This is the meat of the process. Now, I'd like to get this done quickly and efficiently if possible, so I think that it would really be best if we got this done according to a schedule rather than opening the floor to discussion and then just rolling from there. So here's how this is going to work. We have the existing VGM list and the exemption lists. What you will do is propose any moves or exemptions that should be added to or removed from these lists. For example, should you think that Happy Hour deserves to be a VGM, you would post here with a list of moves that you think deserve to be a VGM, and include Happy Hour in that list. You do not need to include any reasoning; however, be aware that this will all be going to a vote, and it will serve your opinion well if you engage with others and try to sell your opinion on any controversial moves, or moves where you seem to disagree with another's inclusion or exclusion, and indeed discuss the issue with a little verve. Also, remember that the current definition of a VGM is "a move that is considered by the combination of its power, accuracy, effect chance, move priority, power points, and overall type coverage to be of distinct individual competitive advantage in a given movepool", and try to make your proposed moves fit this. Also, please try to avoid proposing any moves or exemptions for addition or removal that have already been proposed.

After 72 hours from this post, I will collect all of the proposed changes and place them in a single document, which all members of the PRC will be able to vote on with a simple YES/NO vote for every move or exemption. A simple majority will decide that element's status either way. In addition, we will also vote on whether we want to include the following rules, or some other wording of them, in any capacity:

• "If a VGM is of absolutely no competitive use to a specific CAP, then the Movepool Leader has the ability to make it not count as a VGM for that CAP".
• "Moves that are demonstrably exclusive to a certain individual or group of non-legendary Pokemon are automatically disallowed for all CAPs" (N.B. if this is approved then we will formulate the list after the vote has finished).

You are also allowed to discuss the relative merits of different approaches to this problem; however, note that any definitive alteration will be discussed after the VGM lists have been formulated.

Here is the current list of proposed changes. The first group of VGM additions/removals were those proposed when I tried to do this in the middle of BW2, and they're worth digging up again for sake of completeness, plus updated moves that I felt went without saying. As for the outclassing sets, I also included moves that haven't been formally voted as VGMs yet - naturally, if any of the moves in the exemptions are not made VGMs then that exemption is void as well. For example, if Boomburst were not a VGM then Boomburst would not be counted as outclassing Hyper Voice.

Additions

***To: Very Good Moves

Fire Pledge
Grass Pledge
Water Pledge
Fiery Dance
Final Gambit
Sunny Day
Defog
Disable
Solar Beam
Explosion
Self-Destruct
Charm
Feather Dance
Smack Down
Metal Sound
Screech
Metal Burst
Hypnosis
Sing
Grass Whistle
Flail
Psycho Cut
Power Gem
Pin Missile
Flame Burst
Swagger

Boomburst
Crafty Shield
Dazzling Gleam
Draining Kiss
Flying Press
Freeze-Dry
King's Shield
Mat Block
Misty Terrain
Moonblast
Mystical Fire
Nuzzle
Parabolic Charge
Parting Shot
Petal Blizzard
Phantom Force
Play Rough
Power-Up Punch
Spiky Shield
Sticky Web
Topsy-Turvy
Water Shuriken

***To: Legendary signature moves

Diamond Storm
Geomancy
Hyperspace Hole
Land's Wrath
Oblivion Wing
Steam Eruption

***To: Equivalent moves

Nature Power = Tri Attack
Autotomize = Agility = Rock Polish

***To: Outclassing moves

Boomburst > Hyper Voice
Leaf Blade > Petal Blizzard
Petal Blizzard > Seed Bomb
Moonblast > Dazzling Gleam
Flamethrower > Fire Pledge
Energy Ball > Grass Pledge
Surf > Water Pledge
Spiky Shield > Protect = Detect
Hypnosis > Sing = Grass Whistle
Lovely Kiss > Hypnosis
Spore > Sleep Powder
Fire Pledge > Flame Burst
Shadow Claw > Shadow Punch
Aromatherapy = Heal Bell > Refresh
Protect = Detect > Crafty Shield
Protect = Detect > King's Shield
Protect = Detect > Mat Block
Lovely Kiss > Sleep Powder

Removals

***From: Very Good Moves

Aerial Ace
Amnesia
Flame Charge
Gravity
Howl / Sharpen / Meditate
Iron Defence / Barrier / Acid Armour
Block / Spider Web / Mean Look
Thrash
Refresh
Work Up
Thunder Fang / Spark
Mega Kick
Shadow Punch
Quick Attack
Bounce
Fly
Confuse Ray
Teeter Dance
Cosmic Power
Defend Order
Stockpile
Cotton Guard
Dragon Rush
Iron Tail
Electro Ball
Endeavor
Fake Out
Growth
Hone Claws
Heat Crash
Magnet Rise
Stored Power
Weather Ball
Work Up
Bone Rush
Bullet Seed
Rock Blast
Icicle Spear
Tail Slap
Fire Fang
Ice Fang
Haze
Heavy Slam

***From: Outclassing moves

Autotomize > Agility = Rock Polish

----------------------------------------

So, to repeat - please propose any changes you want to be included in the ballot within the next 72 hours. If you find that you don't have sufficient time to complete your thoughts close to the end of this period, PM me and request an extension.

 

[Bughouse]

Aside from categorizing new moves, I have a few issues.

In no particular order, here are some issues I'd like to raise:

• Absolutely keep Flame Charge a VGM
• Why are we removing the +2 Defense moves if we are adding something like Screech? Seems kinda ridiculous to me.
• Why does Autotomize outclass Agility? Weight moves go both ways. Could easily be taking more from a Heavy Slam, despite less from a Low Kick. They should be equivalent.
• Can we ban Pledge moves because they're only on Starters? Make a separate category just like Legendary moves (for that matter, we could ban Frenzy Plant et al, but those aren't VGMs anyway)
• Why are we now making low accuracy sleep moves VGMs? They haven't been in the past because the accuracy is so pitiful
• Thunder Fang/Spark were VGMs because of Gyarados. Does Gyarados not count any more? I know Fire and Ice Fang hit many more things 4x but for consistency, Thunder Fang/Spark does pass the bar of hitting something important 4x effective
• Make Swagger a VGM. Confuse Ray and Teeter Dance already are, and Swagger I think we'd mostly agree is better. (Also a Confuse Ray = Teeter Dance equivalency.)
• Make Nature Power = Tri Attack equivalency
• Shadow Claw and Shadow Punch (EDIT: haha I meant that Shadow Claw should outclass Shadow Punch, or maybe even make Shadow Punch not a VGM.)
• Remove Mega Kick from VGMs

(and finally, a reminder to review the outclassed moves list to remove the things that are made not VGMs in the end. no sense saying they're outclassed if they're not even VGMs.)

 

[bugmaniacbob]

• Absolutely keep Flame Charge a VGM
• Why are we removing the +2 Defense moves if we are adding something like Screech? Seems kinda ridiculous to me.
• Thunder Fang/Spark were VGMs because of Gyarados. Does Gyarados not count any more? I know Fire and Ice Fang hit many more things 4x but for consistency, Thunder Fang/Spark does pass the bar of hitting something important 4x effective
• Why are we now making low accuracy sleep moves VGMs? They haven't been in the past because the accuracy is so pitiful

As to the above, many of the proposed changes are those that were made towards the end of BW2, which I carried over for sake of completeness. For the record, no, I don't agree with all of them, or indeed most of them, but it's still worth putting them to the vote.

• Shadow Claw and Shadow Punch

Do you want these removed, or added? They are already in the VGM list. Sorry, your post wasn't particularly clear.

(and finally, a reminder to review the outclassed moves list to remove the things that are made not VGMs in the end. no sense saying they're outclassed if they're not even VGMs.)

Absolutely. I already made a mention of that when I posted it, but yes this goes without saying.

The following have been added to the lists:

• "Moves that are demonstrably exclusive to a certain individual or group of non-legendary Pokemon are automatically disallowed for all CAPs" has been added to the list of possible exemptions
• Swagger has been added to the list of possible VGM additions
• Mega Kick has been added to the list of possible VGM removals
• Autotomize > Agility = Rock Polish has been added to the list of possible Outclassing Move removals
• Autotomize = Agility = Rock Polish has been added to the list of possible Equivalent Move additions
  
• Nature Power = Tri Attack has been added to the list of possible Equivalent Move additions

This is a very good collection of additions. Keep them coming.

EDIT: And following a clarification, the following:

• Shadow Punch has been added to the list of possible VGM removals
• Shadow Claw > Shadow Punch has been added to the list of possible Outclassing Move additions

 

[Stratos]

theres no doubt in my mind that shadow claw outclasses shadow punch unless we give a CAP Iron Fist. In addition I'm in favor of scratching Shadow Punch as a VGM because it has 60 bp and hits literally 0 pokemon 4x SE.

I'm also for banning the pledge moves and hyper beam clones that are starter-exclusive because of A) optics problems and B) we have no trouble finding comparable alternatives so our pokemon aren't actually losing anything

Mega Kick is basically 100% outclassed by Return or Double Edge in my opinion because of its low acc and is all right for removal

I agree with Autotomize being better than agility and rock polish; the only possible exceptions are ridiculously heavy fire or steel type pokemon (even mega aggron, who is already a giant fatass, often uses iron head) and in this case the tl can make a specific exception

nature power is not equal to tri attack because of two things: 1) prankster, 2) taunt. normally it is worse than tri attack, under prankster it is better. I don't know how we want to handle this?

don't remove refresh from VGMs, it is still good on pokemon like cm latias, rare though they be, but it is an inferior heal bell / aromatherapy so add that to the move outclassings

spiky shield, mystical fire, and water shuriken should all be added to restricted moves like the pledges, we have similar moves that are less optic issues (protect, flame burst, aqua jet)

i am unsure about phantom force, yes it is the strongest physical ghost STAB but its mechanics are still like Dig which is bad :|

similarly power-up punch is not a good move unless you have parental bond, i think it should not be added

misty terrain shouldn't either unless we already have safeguard imo because the boost to fairy moves is really not worth a moveslot

crafty shield, king's shield, and mat block are straight up outclassed by protect and should not be vgms

some of these make no sense: metal burst, screech, metal sound, low-acc sleeps, flail, sunny day? id drop them all

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Adding

• Aromatherapy = Heal Bell > Refresh
• Protect = Detect > Crafty Shield
• Protect = Detect > King's Shield
  
• Protect = Detect > Mat Block

 

[nyttyn]

Add
My requirements for a offensive VGM are: Some combination of 80+ BP, a very good secondary effect, priority, good tying. Supportive is mostly on a case by case basis.

Fire Pledge
Grass Pledge
Water Pledge
Fiery Dance
Sunny Day
Explosion
Defog
Disable
Freeze-Dry (the water SE utility is just 2 good)
Dazzling Gleam
Draining Kiss
Flying Press
Nuzzle (basically thunder wave++)
Parabolic Charge
Moonblast
Parting Shot (momentum OP)
Petal Blizzard (Can we give this to something actually good?)
Water Shuriken
Sticky Web
Play Rough

Do not add
Just noting potential additions that were listed I disagree with.

Final Gambit
Too unreliable, is highly situational (requires a very high base HP), and the consequences for it whiffing enormously outweigh the benefits.
Self-Destruct
Just doesn't have quite enough power to be worth it, considering the consequence for failure.
Solar Beam
Too situational, easy to screw with, a complete waste of a moveslot if conditions are not right.
Charm/Feather Dance
They are removed via switching out, only work on physical attackers, and are only truly useful if the pokemon has Prankster.
Metal Sound / Screech/etc
Too hard to use. Any offensive pokemon would much rather use a stat boosting move, they are removed by switching out, many supportive pokemon can't fit it onto their movesets, it would reuqire switching out of a supportive pokemon to use, and many supportive pokemon lack the stats to actually abuse the stat drops.
Sing/Hypnosis/Grass Whistle
No. They are WAY too inaccurate. Grass Whistle/Sing especially.
Metal Burst
Too unreliable all in all. Requires being attacked and surviving the hit, while still being hit for enough to OHKO the opposing mon. Only even near VGM on sturdy users and even then.
Swagger
60% chance of doing nothing. No. Especially since it gives your opponent a +2 stat boost to attack, which if used on a offensive mon is basically a coin flip at potentially throwing the game.
Flail/Reversal
Without a focus sash or sturdy, this is way too hard to use and too weak starting off. Even with those, ANY form of passive damage will make it impossible to effectively use.
Crafty Shield
Basically a infinitely shittier protect. This is a doubles move.
Flame Charge
+1 speed just doesn't cut it anymore, with all the scarfers and priority abusers running around. Especially with such a weak base BP.
Pin Missile
All multi-hit moves are really shitty due to how unreliable they are. Sure they're great on skill link mons, but that doens't change the fact that the move itself is inherently absolute garbage.
Mat Block
This is a way shittier protect. WAY shittier. Like, only works on turn 1 and only on offensive moves shittier. Doubles only.
Topsy-Turvy
Fantastic on prankster mons, but only on prankster mons. Otherwise you need to survive the super-stat-boosted behemoth rushing at you before you can actually USE the move 9 times out of 10, which inherently defeats its entire purpose.
Misty Terrain
Just doesn't do enough.
Mystical Fire
The secondary effect is situational, fairly meager to begin with, only lasts until switch out, and 65 BP is really bad.
Spiky Shield
Inferior protect etc. Damage effect just doesn't do nearly enough.
Power-up Punch
This is only good on mega kang. Otherwise just use dragon dance or swords dance. only +1 atk and a really patheitc BP. plus it's free switch in for ghosts.
Phantom Force
Only 90 BP, gives your opponent a semi-free turn and the momentum.

Subtractions

Aerial Ace
Amnesia
Flame Charge
Gravity
Howl / Sharpen / Meditate
Iron Defence / Barrier / Acid Armour
Block / Spider Web / Mean Look
Thrash
Refresh
Work Up
Thunder Fang / Spark
Mega Kick
Shadow Punch
you can probably guess why these are here.
Quick Attack
Sure it has priority, but it's a meager 40 BP and Normal-type, which is the worst type in the game by a significant margin.
Bounce
See: Phantom Force. Only worse, since it actually is only 80 BP. If Bounce remains a VGM I insist that we add fly as well.
Confuse Ray/Teeter Dance
Confusion in general just really sucks.
Cosmic Power / Defend Order
Defensive stat boosts are always asking for a crit to ruin your day. Plus, even though it's +1 to both Def and SpDef, it's still ONLY +1 per turn. Which is still plenty of time for the opponent to whack you with powerful moves and murderize you.
Stockpile
The above, but is even worse due to having an upper limit of +3.
Cotton Guard
Again. Defensive boosts really suck. Even +3 defense can still be ruined by a crit, and a special attacker could still come in. You also need to use the boost before it even takes effect, and it is ruined by switching out. Oh yeah and toxic.
Electro Ball
So incredibly situational. Unless we start giving CAPs 250+ base speed, this will usually do not nearly enough damage.
Endeavor
Gimmicky, hard to use, requires a lot of prediction, and is too easily ruined. Plus, if the conditons are not right, it's a complete waste of a moveslot. Also ghost bait.
Fake Out
Complete waste of a move slot past turn 1, and while it IS free, sashbreaknig damage, it hits for such a pittance that it isn't anywhere near a VGM. Plus, the brutal downside of being a waste of a moveslot past turn 1. Doubles move.
Growth
Too hard to use now that eternal sun is gone.
Hone Claws
+1 attack, even with the nice accuracy boost, just isn't enough.
Heat Crash
Too reliant on the pokemon in question being fat, and has such a wild variance in damage against various targets depending on weight differences that it isn't that hot.
Magnet Rise
Incredibly situational, requires going first, and often a waste of a move slot.
Stored Power
Gimmick supreme. Way too hard to get going, and it isn't even that fantastic when you do. Plus, the power is often redundant. There are far better options for abusing set up that aren't complete wastes of space before you set up.
Weather Ball
Very, very inconsistent, isn't even that good for what you get, and absolutely awful if a weather isn't out (which will often be the case now that perma weather is gone)
Work Up
Just a worse growth. +1 to a stat stage is almost never worth it, and even though it's a total of +2, they're to two wildly incompatible stats.
Bone Rush/Bullet Seed/Rock Blast/Icicle Shard/Tail Slap
All are multi-hit moves, and as I stated earlier, multi-hit moves suck on non-skill link mons. Just too unreliable and even when they DO work they are on average not really better then more reliable moves.
Fire Fang/Ice Fang//Thunder Fang
Shitty moves.

 

[jas61292]

I'll comment in more full detail later, but I really want to just say that this whole "ban starter moves" thing is kinda ridiculous to me and completely off topic. I fail to see how these moves are any different than the dozens of other signature moves out there. Don't give me any "starters are special" crap. If anything they are even more normal than your average Pokemon. Yeah, they have some things special about them, but, in in-game logical terms, it is the things they have that make them special, not the fact that they are special that gives them what they have, unlike legendary Pokemon. If people want to revisit the idea of banning sig moves in general, that is one thing, but I singling out starters is silly.

Moreover, this is just a discussion on what moves are VGMs. Yes, we have a section for legendary sigs, but according to the site, those are all "naturally" VGMs. Whether or not we do or do not allow those other moves going forward is a separate discussion and has absolutely no bearing on whether or not they are very good moves.

 

[DHR-107]

I'll comment in more full detail later, but I really want to just say that this whole "ban starter moves" thing is kinda ridiculous to me and completely off topic. I fail to see how these moves are any different than the dozens of other signature moves out there. Don't give me any "starters are special" crap. If anything they are even more normal than your average Pokemon. Yeah, they have some things special about them, but, in in-game logical terms, it is the things they have that make them special, not the fact that they are special that gives them what they have, unlike legendary Pokemon. If people want to revisit the idea of banning sig moves in general, that is one thing, but I singling out starters is silly.

Pretty much agreeing with Jas here... Why are we seperating out the starter moves? If that was the case wouldnt Mat Block need to be banned too as well as Water Shuriken? Of all the starter only moves, only Mystical Fire and Water Shuriken could be of use (for the special attack effect of MF and then WS in tandem with Skill Link). However, the chances are we aren't going to be amking a Skill Link mon anytime soon (As I am pretty sure GF have explored this pretty well with Cincinno, Cloyster and now Mega Heracross).

Oh, and on topic, Final Gambit should not be a VGM in any circumstances. I don't even know how that got onto the list in the first place to be fperfectly honest.

nyttyn I think you got Flame Burst and Flame Charge muddled up in your post, just letting you know.

 

[nyttyn]

Agreeing with jas here. I personally think the whole "signature policy" thing is very dumb as a whole, since it leads to inconsistent things like this, but that aside, no reason to ban the starter signatures. They aren't legendary sigs.

Also thanks DHR-107

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Sigh

> Promises to accept all proposed changes for voting on
> Somebody suggests removing Hydro Pump, Focus Blast, Stone Edge

I am getting something of a sense of deja vu here

OK so nyttyn I'm not sure if you read what I wrote in the post above but a) you're only supposed to be suggesting changes that haven't been suggested already and b) VGMs are moves of competitive advantage within a given movepool, not those that fall above an arbitrary level in a vacuum, so I'm not sure why you think that moves such as Focus Blast and Stone Edge don't deserve VGM status based on that. In point of fact, this would leave us with no physical Rock-type VGMs at all. Tyranitar does make use of its Rock-type STAB, as does Terrakion - these moves are supposed to be competitively viable, not just "good" relative to the ideal perfect example of a move in that category. I'd encourage you to possibly re-think some of the proposals you've made (oh and also note that Gunk Shot now has 80 Acc and Fairy-type coverage in its favour, on top of 20 BP and 30% chance to poison, not sure if you knew that).

These are the novel changes you proposed:

• Quick Attack to the list of possible VGM removals
  
• Bounce to the list of possible VGM removals
• Fly to the list of possible VGM additions
• Confuse Ray to the list of possible VGM removals
• Teeter Dance to the list of possible VGM removals
• Cosmic Power to the list of possible VGM removals
• Defend Order to the list of possible VGM removals
• Stockpile to the list of possible VGM removals
• Cotton Guard to the list of possible VGM removals
• Dragon Rush to the list of possible VGM removals
• Iron Tail to the list of possible VGM removals
• Focus Blast to the list of possible VGM removals
• Gunk Shot to the list of possible VGM removals
• Cross Chop to the list of possible VGM removals
• Stone Edge to the list of possible VGM removals
• Hydro Pump to the list of possible VGM removals
• Electro Ball to the list of possible VGM removals
• Endeavor to the list of possible VGM removals
• Fake Out to the list of possible VGM removals
• Growth to the list of possible VGM removals
• Hone Claws to the list of possible VGM removals
• Heat Crash to the list of possible VGM removals
• Magnet Rise to the list of possible VGM removals
• Stored Power to the list of possible VGM removals
• Weather Ball to the list of possible VGM removals
• Work Up to the list of possible VGM removals
• Bone Rush to the list of possible VGM removals
• Bullet Seed to the list of possible VGM removals
• Rock Blast to the list of possible VGM removals
• Icicle Spear to the list of possible VGM removals
• Tail Slap to the list of possible VGM removals
• Brick Break to the list of possible VGM removals
• Cross Poison to the list of possible VGM removals
• Fire Fang to the list of possible VGM removals
• Fire Punch to the list of possible VGM removals
• Ice Fang to the list of possible VGM removals
• Ice Punch to the list of possible VGM removals
• Night Slash to the list of possible VGM removals
• Razor Shell to the list of possible VGM removals
• Rock Slide to the list of possible VGM removals
• Shadow Claw to the list of possible VGM removals
• Shadow Punch to the list of possible VGM removals
• Thunder Punch to the list of possible VGM removals
• Thunder Fang to the list of possible VGM removals

For at least a few of these, I would encourage you to perhaps revise your opinion or rescind the proposal, because competitive advantage =/= good, it need only be either better than the next best thing or serve a specific purpose. Focus Blast is used because the power is needed to OHKO targets such as Heatran, say. Fire Punch is used because the coverage on Genesect and Scizor is worth the low Base Power. Iron Tail is used because it is worth risking the possibility of a miss for the sake of coverage on Fairy-types. Yes, they're all considered bad moves, but that doesn't stop them from being competitively viable.

If there is no reply to this message before the end of the 72 hour period then all of the above will be added to the ballot lists, but I sincerely hope that will not need to be the case. Either that, or nyttyn gives reasoning as to why Stone Edge etc continue to be used despite being useless competitively, which is always a possibility, since I am not as versed in XY as I might like to be. Have these moves ceased to be used?

 

[PttP]

Hydro Pump clearly should not be on the ballot, especially not for such poor reasoning. To argue that the nerf is enough to make it no longer a VGM is silliness. Moves should be looked at independent of outside factors such as generation mechanical changes. Just because Hydro Pump lost 10 BP in the generational shift does not mean that it is no longer a good move. It is still the strongest viable and widely distributed Water move and this is what should be looked at. Saying that it isn't a VGM because it misses 1/5th of the time is a very naive comment and something that someone who doesn't play the game would say. The extra power is often times worth the miss factor, and we still see Hydro Pump used in XY even with the nerf in power. For example, Specs Keldeo has a very miniscule chance of 2HKOing Assault Vest Conkeldurr with Surf, while it has a guaranteed 2HKO with Hydro Pump. Hydro Pump has a 93.8% to OHKO Genesect while Surf has a 0% chance. To have a chance of achieving kills with the extra power is almost universally favored over the chance to miss 20% of the time, and as such, Hydro Pump is a VGM.

It blows my mind as to why Focus Blast is on the list. Focus Blast is the staple of pretty much all of the potent special attackers in the metagame (Landorus, Thundurus, Gengar, etc) because it allows special attackers to get past their biggest threats in Heatran and Tyranitar. There really should be no debate as to why Focus Blast should not be on the list. The additional strength + coverage it provides makes it a VGM by all standards.

Stone Edge is also in the same boat, many physical attackers use it for coverage and it is worth the miss chance.

Ice Punch / Thunder Punch / Fire Punch are all potent coverage moves that are necessary for certain Pokemon to thrive. You won't ever see a Mega Medicham not running Ice Punch because then it can't get by Landorus-T. Same deal with Mega Lucario. Fire Punch is necessary coverage to hit Steels such as Scizor and Genesect. The only debatable move here is Thunder Punch because nothing really runs it due to Electric's rather poor usefulness, but it still finds its usage. Putting these all under the non-VGM list just because of some silly arbitrary reasoning (LESS THAN 80 BASE POWER, MUST BE BAD) isn't good as it fails to consider actual game scenarios in which coverage is a necessity.

Gunk Shot should not be on the list for not only the reasons that BMB provided, but also because it isn't like Focus Blast...it's physical...that's a pretty big difference.

Cross Chop should be a VGM for similar reasons to Stone Edge.

 

[nyttyn]

I am retracting a few of my proposed removals from the VGM list, as it is clear from discussion on IRC that i'm literally the only person with that mindset behind many of them, and there would be no sense in wasting anyone's time with them.

The follwing moves I am no longer supporting being removed are: Cross Chop, Stone Edge, Gunk Shot, Focus Blast, Hydro Pump, Ice + Fire Punch, the sub 80 BP moves save for the Fangs (which suck), Dragon Rush.

 

[jas61292]

Another short comment (I promise I'll actually look this over fully for any additions/subtractions tomorrow):

I just want to remind people that simply having a better alternative does not stop something from being a VGM. While, like BMB said, you have to think of moves in a movepool and not in a vacuum, at the same time, you kinda do need to think of them in a vacuum. The quality of Surf has absolutely no bearing on whether Hydro Pump is a VGM. Rotom-W is the perfect example for such a situation. Would it rather run Surf? Maybe. I don't know. However, even if we assumed it always would, that doesn't matter, because it can't. It only has access to Hydro Pump, and unless you are going to say that Hydro Pump is not a very good move in such a case, then you can not say it is not a very good move. The important thing to note is that whether something is a VGM should be determined by if it is a move worth using in general, should a Pokemon not have any strictly superior moves.