Primal Groudon (QC 1/3)

Fireburn

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(I wrote the original skeleton for this so expect some copy paste)
____________________

[OVERVIEW]

* Primal Groudon is near ubiquitous on Ubers teams due to its incredible power and unparalleled versatility.
* Primal Groudon compresses a plethora of defensive roles into one slot. It is the best Stealth Rock user in the tier; provides Water- and Electric-type immunities; checks very powerful Pokemon such as Xerneas, Primal Kyogre, most Steel-types, Ho-Oh, and many others; and is also good at phazing and spreading status.
* Exceptional offensive power thanks to base 180 Attack, good STAB attacks, access to Swords Dance and Rock Polish, burn immunity, and solid coverage options.

* Slow without Rock Polish and has relatively low special bulk without investment.
* Primal Groudon's Ground weakness is annoying as it is a common offensive type.
* Lack of recovery options makes Primal Groudon vulnerable to being whittled down by status and entry hazards.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Precipice Blades
move 3: Roar
move 4: Toxic / Lava Plume / Rock Slide
item: Red Orb
ability: Drought
nature: Careful
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Primal Groudon can consistently set up Stealth Rock due to its solid defenses and ability to force switches.
* Precipice Blades is the chief STAB move, 2HKOing Xerneas and Primal Kyogre while hitting defensive Arceus formes and most grounded Pokemon for nice chunks of damage.
* Roar allows Primal Groudon to phaze out Geomancy Xerneas, thus reliably checking it. Phazing is also useful in general against other threats such as Mega Salamence.
* Toxic cripples Ground-immune checks such as Lugia and Defog users such as support Arceus formes.
* Lava Plume does solid damage with STAB and sunlight, and the 30% burn rate can be hazardous to potential checks as well. Lava Plume also threatens Celesteela and Skarmory, which Primal Groudon cannot do with just Toxic and Precipice Blades.
* Rock Slide OHKOes Ho-Oh and hits Rayquaza and offensive Yveltal for 2HKOes.

Set Details
========

* HP and Special Defense are maxed out with a Careful nature to let Primal Groudon take special hits as well as possible. This helps greatly against Xerneas and Primal Kyogre.
* Careful nature further increases Primal Groudon's Special Defense. The Special Attack drop from running a Careful nature doesn't matter if using Lava Plume as it still does sufficient damage and is mostly used for burns.
* However, an Impish nature can be used instead to take less damage from Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence.

Usage Tips
========

* Primal Groudon lacks recovery, so it requires a bit of care to play efficiently—don't be too reckless with it.
* Try to set up Stealth Rock as quickly as possible.
* Toxic is best used when anticipating Defog users switching in so it has more time to work its magic.
* Though Primal Groudon can check Ho-Oh with Rock Slide or cripple it with Toxic, switching into it is risky as Brave Bird does a lot of damage.
* Do not go for Speed ties against other base 90 Speed Pokemon, as you will almost always lose due to having no investment.
* Watch out for Toxic as it will wear down Primal Groudon quite quickly.

Team Options
========

* Defog support is nice to stop hazards from chipping down at Primal Groudon's precious health. Giratina-O and Mega Salamence provide Defog support as well as sturdy Ground immunities.
* Arceus-Water isn't immune to Ground, but nonetheless, it checks Ground-types well, Defogs, and can act as a buffer against Primal Kyogre.
* Fairy-types such as Xerneas, Arceus-Fairy, and Magearna can switch into Yveltal as well as Dragon-types such as Mega Salamence, Giratina-O, and Zygarde-C that threaten Primal Groudon.
* Ho-Oh can help Primal Groudon against special attackers and helps beat down its checks.
* Mega Gengar can readily take advantage of status inflicted by Primal Groudon with Hex, trapping and KOing its checks when weakened.
* Extreme Killer Arceus and Arceus-Ground make nice offensive complements as Primal Groudon can help wear down their checks with status.
* Countermeasures against Toxic are helpful: Mega Sableye can bounce it back; Steel-types such as Mega Lucario, Magearna, Celesteela, and Ferrothorn are immune to it; and Xerneas can provide Aromatherapy support.
* Spikes from Ferrothorn or Skarmory can make Roar more effective.
* Though it may be hard to fit, Wish support from Clefable or Blissey offers Primal Groudon a welcome means of recovery.

[SET]
name: Rock Polish
move 1: Rock Polish
move 2: Precipice Blades
move 3: Swords Dance / Dragon Claw
move 4: Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Fire Punch
item: Red Orb
ability: Drought
nature: Adamant
evs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 60 SpD / 28 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Rock Polish fixes Primal Groudon's low Speed and makes it a very deadly sweeper.
* STAB Precipice Blades is Primal Groudon's strongest STAB move, hitting most Pokemon for great damage.
* Swords Dance gives Primal Groudon a huge power boost to bust through walls it could not otherwise break, such as defensive Arceus formes, Zygarde-C, and Lugia, although it can be hard to grab both a Swords Dance and a Rock Polish.
* Stone Edge is mainly for Flying-types, OHKOing Ho-Oh, Rayquaza, and offensive Yveltal while doing heavy damage to Mega Salamence and Lugia.
* Dragon Claw 2HKOes Giratina-O after Stealth Rock.
* Rock Slide is a weaker but more accurate alternative to Stone Edge. The flinch rate can potentially be handy after Primal Groudon uses Rock Polish to fix its Speed.
* Fire Punch can be used instead of Rock-type coverage to hit Ground-immune Steel-types while still hitting many Flying-types hard. It also gives Primal Groudon a fully accurate STAB move.

Set Details
========

* 252 Attack EVs with an Adamant nature maximizes damage output and meets some important benchmarks: maximum HP Primal Groudon is OHKOed, defensive Primal Kyogre is OHKOed at +2, and Mega Salamence is OHKOed at +1.
* 28 Speed allows Primal Groudon to outspeed the most common Choice Scarf users at +2, including Modest Choice Scarf Xerneas and Yveltal.
* More Speed EVs can be used to hit higher Speed benchmarks if necessary. For example, 120 Speed EVs can be used to outspeed Timid Choice Scarf Xerneas and Yveltal after Rock Polish.
* The HP and Special Defense EVs maximize overall bulk while guaranteeing that Primal Groudon survives +2 Hidden Power Ground from Geomancy Xerneas after Stealth Rock damage.

Usage Tips
========

* Setting up Rock Polish or Swords Dance when forcing a switch is ideal.
* Natural bulk can usually let Primal Groudon survive one hit in order to set up, but it is generally not recommended unless the trade is worth it or you already have one of your two boosts.
* Don't let Primal Groudon take too much damage; otherwise, it may not be able to set up properly.
* Try to weaken checks before attempting to sweep.
* Primal Groudon can just use Swords Dance to wallbreak if your gameplan is more suitable to having a teammate sweep.

Team Options
========

* An offensive Stealth Rock user is mandatory: Deoxys-S, Arceus-Fairy, Dialga, Excadrill, or Tyranitar all work.
* Mega Salamence, Rayquaza, and Yveltal are offensive teammates that cover Primal Groudon's weakness to Ground.
* Set up sweepers such as Geomancy Xerneas, Bulk Up Marshadow, Swords Dance Arceus, and Mega Salamence pair well with this set, working in tandem with Primal Groudon to knock down walls.
* Xerneas or Arceus-Fairy is recommended to pressure Dragon-types such as Giratina-O and Zygarde-C.
* Mega Gengar, Lunala, and Yveltal can help pressure physical tanks.

[SET]
name: Mixed Rock Polish
move 1: Rock Polish
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Precipice Blades
move 4: Hidden Power Ice
item: Red Orb
ability: Drought
nature: Mild
evs: 72 Atk / 252 SpA / 144 SpD / 28 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Rock Polish helps boost Primal Groudon's otherwise average Speed to a point where it can outspeed almost the entire unboosted metagame.
* Fire Blast is Primal Groudon's best Fire-type move, and its ability to always 2HKO or potentially OHKO Arceus-Ground after some chip damage makes it potent at sweeping teams that rely on Arceus-Ground to check Primal Groudon.
* Precipice Blades is Primal Groudon's best Ground-type STAB move and what it uses to break through special walls, such as Blissey and Primal Kyogre.
* Hidden Power Ice 2HKOes a full-HP Zygarde-C, as well as OHKOing Mega Salamence and Rayquaza.

Set Details
========

* Running 28 Speed EVs lets Primal Groudon outspeed Modest Choice Scarf Xerneas and Yveltal after a Rock Polish boost.
* 120 Speed EVs can be used to outspeed Timid Choice Scarf Xerneas and Yveltal after Rock Polish if necessary. To achieve this, take all the Attack EVs and 9 Special Attack EVs and put them into Speed.
* 144 Special Defense EVs let Primal Groudon survive a +2 Focus Blast from Xerneas and a Judgment from Arceus-Ground.
* The rest of the EVs are put into Attack and Special Attack along with a Mild nature to help give Primal Groudon more firepower on both sides.
* It is also good to note that with no HP investment and a Mild nature, this Groudon set is particularly weak to priority and very powerful and bulky physical attackers.

Usage Tips
========

* Mixed Rock Polish Primal Groudon is particularly good at handling soft checks to Groudon, such as Yveltal, Mega Salamence, and Rayquaza, and it is able to beat or at least perform better than other sets against Pokemon such as Zygarde-C and Arceus-Ground, respectively.
* Rock Polish is best used when forcing a switch, although it can set up on a foe's attack if completely necessary due to its natural bulk.
* Be sure to KO or weaken this Primal Groudon set's biggest checks first before attempting a sweep: Arceus-Water, Ho-oh, and defensive Primal Kyogre.
* To deal with each of its threats, Primal Groudon can use Precipice Blades to hit Arceus-Water and Primal Kyogre, but it can't weaken Ho-Oh in a any real meaningful way, so setting up Stealth Rock with another Pokemon to counteract this is a great idea.
* This set should not be used to absorb too much damage, as it usually needs most of its HP left to sweep.
* Using Precipice Blades early on to try to bluff a physical set is recommended, as it can potentially lure in physical walls that can be eliminated with Fire Blast or Hidden Power Ice.

Team Options
========


* More offensive Stealth Rock users, such as Dialga, Deoxys-S, Arceus-Fairy, and Excadrill, are near mandatory when using this set, as Stealth Rock can weaken Ho-Oh, break Multiscale and Shadow Shield, and weaken any Pokemon switching in.
* Strong, offensive special attackers, such as Lunala, Yveltal, and Mega Salamence, can handle physical tanks for Groudon.
* Ground-immune Pokemon, such as Yveltal, Mega Salamence, and Rayquaza, can cover Groudon's weakness, and those three also provide good offensive pressure.
* Xerneas can take care of Dragon-types, such as Arceus-Dragon and Giratina-O, and they can weaken each other's threats quite well.
* Pokemon that deal with Arceus-Water, such as Dialga, Ferrothorn, Mega Gengar, and physical sweepers like Arceus and Mega Lucario, can help cover Groudon's weakness.
* A check to Primal Kyogre, such as Dialga, Palkia, Ferrothorn, or a Primal Kyogre of your own, is essential, as it stops Primal Groudon in its tracks with ease.
* Marshadow is a good partner to this set due to Primal Groudon's ability to lure in and take out common physical tanks with its powerful Fire Blast.


[SET]
name: Bulky Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Precipice Blades
move 3: Fire Punch / Stealth Rock
move 4: Rock Tomb / Stone Edge
item: Red Orb
ability: Drought
nature: Adamant
evs: 168 HP / 236 Atk / 92 SpD / 12 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* This set forgoes Rock Polish to maximize Primal Groudon's coverage and wallbreaking power while retaining serviceable bulk.
* Precipice Blades is chosen as the primary STAB move once again for sheer power, allowing Primal Groudon to break even tough walls like Giratina and Zygarde-C.
* Fire Punch is boosted by STAB and sunlight, striking down Ground-immune Steel-types and doing massive damage to Yveltal and Lugia.
* Rock Tomb does massive damage to Mega Salamence, and slows down Yveltal and Lugia, allowing Primal Groudon to KO them with a follow up attack immediately and prevent Roost stalling. Rock Tomb also OHKOes Ho-Oh.
* Stone Edge is stronger than Rock Tomb, but lacks the Speed dropping effect.
* Stealth Rock can be used over Fire Punch if the team requires the hazard and hitting Celesteela or Skarmory isn't necessary.
* Dragon Claw can be used to KO Giratina-O at +2 after Stealth Rock damage.

Set Details
========

* 12 Speed EVs allow Primal Groudon to outspeed Timid Yveltal after a Speed drop Rock Tomb.
* The HP and SpD EVs allow Primal Groudon to survive a Judgment from support Arceus-Ground after Stealth Rock damage, assuming it takes Stealth Rock damage before undergoing Primal Reversion. It also allows Primal Groudon to survive +2 Hidden Power Groudon from Geomancy Xerneas and two Ice Beams from Modest Primal Kyogre after Stealth Rock damage.
* The remaining EVs go into Attack to maximize power.

Usage Tips
========


* This set works best on bulky offense or balance teams that need a strong wallbreaker. It is preferred to have another Stealth Rock user on such a team so Primal Groudon can run optimal coverage.
* A good time to Swords Dance is when you anticipate a switch to a wall that will get KOed by a boosted hit.
* If using this set to try and take out Arceus-Ground, bear in mind that Arceus-Ground will need to be chipped or paralyzed first and Primal Groudon will need to be at near full HP to take a Judgment.
* Try not to let Primal Groudon get Toxiced unless it will result in it successfully getting a KO with a Swords Dance boosted attack.

Team Options
========

* Primal Groudon works well with other setup sweepers such as Mega Salamence, Arceus, and Xerneas to break down defensive cores.
* Mega Salamence and Giratina-O provide Ground immunities as well as a Water resistance for pivoting against Primal Kyogre.
* Primal Groudon likes being paired with sturdier Xerneas checks such as Ho-Oh, Celesteela, or Magearna so Primal Groudon can focus on offense. Ferrothorn is a good option if using a more balance teams for Spikes support. Mega Lucario and Mega Metagross can work for more offensive teams.
* Arceus-Fairy can set up Stealth Rock and check Giratina-O well.
* Yveltal, Lunala, and Mega Gengar can assist Primal Groudon against certain walls such as Lugia.
* Zygarde can paralyze Arceus-Ground with Glare, easing Primal Groudon's matchup against it greatly.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

* Primal Groudon can make use of a Jolly Nature with Swords Dance to take on a sweeping role with Sticky Web support, alleviating the need for Rock Polish.
* Dragon Tail gives Primal Groudon a phazing move that does valuable chip damage to checks such as Mega Salamence and Giratina-O, but its imperfect accuracy and impotence against Xerneas make it lesser to Roar in most cases.
* Rest in conjunction with Sleep Talk provides Primal Groudon with a means of recovery, but also leaves it strapped for moveslots.
* Earthquake is a weaker but more accurate alternative to Precipice Blades.
* Overheat is very strong with Special Attack investment, and it can be used on an offensively-inclined Stealth Rock set to put a lot of pressure on support Arceus with Defog.
* Eruption is ludicrously powerful, but its power is dependent on Primal Groudon's HP. Considering how easily Primal Groudon is chipped down, and it cannot afford must Speed investment without compromising its bulk, Eruption will rarely be at full strength, making it more trouble than its worth.
* Solar Beam can surprise Arceus-Water and Arceus-Ground, but it tends to be inferior at doing so than just using a physical set with Swords Dance, and using Solar Beam is extremely risky if there is a Primal Kyogre or Rayquaza on the opposing team.
* Regular Groudon can be used with Leftovers for weather support and a check to physical attackers that like to use Earthquake, but it is almost always inferior to just using Red Orb.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Arceus-Ground**: Arceus-Ground is faster, hits Primal Groudon hard with Ground-type STAB moves, and can switch into most of Primal Groudon's attack and Recover off the damage. However, Toxic from the support set is crippling to support Arceus-Ground, and sun-boosted Fire-type moves from specially inclined Primal Groudon sets do a ton of damage.

**Lugia**: Lugia is immune to Ground, tanks hits easily with high bulk and Multiscale, and can Toxic stall Primal Groudon out most of the time. However, Lugia needs to be wary of Toxic and Swords Dance boosted Rock-type moves.

**Mega Salamence**: Mega Salamence is immune to Ground, resists Fire, can drop Attack with Intimidate on top of high Defense, and hits hard with STAB Double-Edge or Earthquake. Facade can let it turn status against Primal Groudon as well. However, it is annoyed significantly by Dragon Tail, and a boosted Stone Edge will easily slay Mega Salamence.

**Zygarde-C**: Zygarde-C shrugs off almost any attack with its ridiculous bulk and can beat down Primal Groudon with Thousand Arrows, paralyze it with Glare, or phaze it with Dragon Tail. However, it must take some caution before it transforms and it cannot beat Swords Dance or special sets with Hidden Power Ice 1v1.

**Giratina-O**: Giratina-O has high bulk, is immune to Ground and resists Fire, can Defog away Stealth Rock, and hits Primal Groudon hard with Draco Meteor or Earthquake. Dragon Claw and Dragon Tail hurt though, and Giratina-O can't take too many boosted Stone Edges.

**Arceus-Water and Arceus-Dragon**: These Arceus formes can generally shrug off most attacks and aren't bothered too much by Lava Plume due to their Fire resistance. They can Defog away Stealth Rock and easily Toxic stall Primal Groudon. Take care that Arceus-Water cannot beat Swords Dance Primal Groudon on its own, as Toxic will not KO Primal Groudon before it is able to KO Arceus-Water, and both formes are hindered greatly by Toxic themselves.

**Rayquaza**: Rayquaza is usually faster than Primal Groudon and can OHKO it with Water-type attacks through Desolate Land thanks to Air Lock. Its immunity to Ground and Fire resistance grant Rayquaza some switch-in opportunities, though most Dragon- and Rock-type coverage moves will KO Rayquaza.

**Primal Kyogre**: Assuming it comes in after Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre can erase Desolate Land and destroy Primal Groudon with Water-type STAB. Defensive sets can usually take any one hit, though a Swords Dance-boosted Precipice Blades will OHKO any Primal Kyogre variant.

**Landorus-T**: Landorus-T hates Fire-type STAB, but can make use of its typing and Intimidate to easily switch in on most other attacks and KO Primal Groudon with Earthquake.

**Yveltal**: Yveltal is immune to Ground-type moves and can outspeed and heavily damage Primal Groudon with Dark Pulse or Foul Play, although most of Primal Groudon's other coverage moves will deal heavy damage.

**Ground-immune Steel-types**: Skarmory, Bronzong, and Celesteela can comfortably take on Primal Groudon if it leaves home without Fire-type moves.

**Ho-Oh**: Ho-Oh is immune to Ground-type moves and resists Fire-type moves, and if Stealth Rock isn't up it can use Regenerator to switch in repeatedly and hammer Primal Groudon with Brave Bird or Earthquake. Any Rock-type move will easily defeat Ho-Oh, so it must exercise great caution.

**Toxic**: Primal Groudon has no form of recovery, so Toxic will sap its health very quickly, greatly limiting Primal Groudon's capabilities over a match.
 
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Minority

Numquam Vincar
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The only place Dragon Tail is mentioned is in C&C. I would add this to the moves sections of appropriate sets, or at minimum in OO.

Roar being unslashed on the first set seems strange. A defensive team can fit strong Xern checks outside of support P Don, thus you may not need Roar on your support P Don and would rather benefit from something like Toxic + secondary damage move. I suppose you can argue that if you don't need your P Don to check Xern, but still need it to set SR, you can just opt to run SD and thus would be using the bulky swords dance set. I'd argue that at minimum, SR + Blades + Toxic + filler (not Roar) on a defensive spread is a justifiable customization. Other QC input on this point please.

28 Speed is pretty slow for RP P Dons. In reality players will run more because of creep + esoteric concerns. For analyses purposes it may be okay. One faster spread opt is mentioned in set details, but why for the special set only?

Intro hits all the big points elegantly. C&C list is good.


QC: 1/3
 

The Dovahneer

UPL Champion
I wonder what happened to that offensive stealth rock set, it still functions in the current metagame and it typically runs dragon tail, solving one of the problems Minority pointed out.

Apologies if I'm not allowed to post here or something, I don't lurk enough.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
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The only place Dragon Tail is mentioned is in C&C. I would add this to the moves sections of appropriate sets, or at minimum in OO.

Roar being unslashed on the first set seems strange. A defensive team can fit strong Xern checks outside of support P Don, thus you may not need Roar on your support P Don and would rather benefit from something like Toxic + secondary damage move. I suppose you can argue that if you don't need your P Don to check Xern, but still need it to set SR, you can just opt to run SD and thus would be using the bulky swords dance set. I'd argue that at minimum, SR + Blades + Toxic + filler (not Roar) on a defensive spread is a justifiable customization. Other QC input on this point please.

28 Speed is pretty slow for RP P Dons. In reality players will run more because of creep + esoteric concerns. For analyses purposes it may be okay. One faster spread opt is mentioned in set details, but why for the special set only?

Intro hits all the big points elegantly. C&C list is good.


QC: 1/3
Added Dragon Tail to C&C and mentioned faster Speed benchmarks in physical RP
 
Remove rock slide from both spdef set and RP set. Stone edge is better on RP as the extra power is necessary for Ho-oh (rslide doesnt even OHKO), yveltal after SR, Lugia after SR, etc. Spdef rock slide wouldn't KO ho-oh either and it's hard to get a free hit on CB ho-oh with spdef pdon. Rslide can go in oo because it's decent on rock polish.

change RP to this:

name: Rock Polish
move 1: Rock Polish
move 2: Precipice Blades
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Swords Dance / Fire Punch

You can put dclaw in moves as it only hits gira-o, and gira-o isn't as good as it used to be. Fire punch is nice for a fully accurate STAB and it allows pdon to not be walled by celesteela/zong. Also allows pdon to OHKO ferrothorn and scizor.
 
I think proposing a support set using EdgeQuake+Roar is preposterous. Now you have turned a good SR into an absolute Defog bait. No way the slashing can look like that. Toxic (or at least Lava Plume) is a must to do something lasting to anti hazard stuff.

I think in general a specially offensive SR set with Overheat is strong in the meta. That way you can do severe damage to Arceus-Ground, and your other special move of choice (HP Ice or Dpulse) can help you somewhat with either Zygarde or Giratina. This is of course a worse Xerneas check but the set should be added.

Everything you wrote looks good though, no glaring errors from what I can see
 
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Fireburn this has sat around for a considerably long time despite my constant reminders about it. if this isn't ready for the 3/3 stage by sunday i will reassign the analysis.

edit: well it was longer than usual but this aint going anywhere. moving
 
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