Considering how most are mandatory, albeit in different sections, this seems pointless to me. It would basically be Defog < Fly and Cut (extremely nice to have but never strictly necessary to beat the game) < Everything else.
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Pokémon Diamond, Pearl & Platinum In-game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter sin(pi)
- Start date
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
I can't copypaste properly :[ it should be fixed now.
Don't edit to add noms, because I'm not rereading the entire to find them. I'll address them now:
B tier
Platinum has a Shiny stone much earlier (en route to Veilstone), but regardless you probably want to wait until Petal Dance at level 40 to evolve, so imo this is a nonfactor. Roselia is decent enough until then, if a little on the wimpy side.
D tier
disagree if we go by evolution, happiness evolution is not hard to get. That said, it doesn't have any STAB (or any special coverage at all, bar Grass Knot) until the move relearner/level 36 unless you have $200000 or invest a fair bit of time (for VGC Psychic), so I can see it dropping to C for sure.
sure
E tier
I don't feel strongly about this either way tbh. Wake isn't late by any means though
could see this in D perhaps but Hypnosis is pretty nice and its typing/bulk is amazing. offensively it is pathetic though, I didn't even realise it was that weak lmao
E is a bit low for it, yes 'gunk struggles during the midgame but once it evolves it pulls its weight. I don't see it dropping lower than D if that.
That shiny stone requires rock climb, so the one at Iron Island is still the earliest shiny stone.
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Shellos at D seems a bit harsh. It has a nice typing, okay stats (it actually does damage with Surf unlike Wooper/Quagsire), and I'm pretty sure you can catch Gastrodon in the wild if you don't want to deal with the Level 30 evo. It's admittedly a bit of a resource drain due to high HP, which can be annoying.
C might be a bit more appropriate.
C might be a bit more appropriate.
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For one, Dialga and Palkia aren't available in Platinum until postgame. As for the others (Platinum), I have no opinion but they do require trades, which can be an inconvenience. Misdreavus and Murkrow have nice stats, but require the scarce dusk stone to evolve (maybe C would be good?). Glameow and Stunky have worse stats, but again no experience using them at all (D rank?). And Manaphy is odd because it requires Pokemon Ranger (which means it's also a trade but Ranger is maybe a rarer game given it's not a main series game - idk but I never owned it)
I'm pretty sure the rules say that, when considering which tier a Pokemon should be, trading is only allowed if the traded Pokemon is immediately traded back. Thus, the only thing trading can possibly accomplish is evolution. If this rule wasn't in place, then players would be able to use all Pokemon that exist in Generation 4 by catching them in another game, and we would have to tier all of them.
well then there you go. I thought you were asking for those mons to be placed - guess I didn't follow your post lol (I did know the rule about trading fyi)
e: fwiw, Dialga and Palkia are already mentioned in the OP as untiered, so that's prob why I was confused
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Disagreeing with Magikarp for S. This is the Gen where the game hands you two nukes immediately (Chimchar and Starly), and Magikarp requires time and investment to get to that point while also coming later. Yeah it's only five levels, but it's five painful levels because Magikarp is bad on its own.
I think A is fine for it.
I think A is fine for it.
I don't believe you can catch magikarp at level 15 with the Old Rod in Diamond/Pearl (only Platinum); I'm pretty sure it's level 3-10 in D/P which is obviously more of a deadweight situation in those games. Also, Gyarados can be caught with a great rod in the Great Marsh as high as level 30, so it may be worth differentiating those two (just throwing that out there as I haven't tried Great Marsh Gyarados to know if that's exactly worth it). I too agree with Karxrida that S is probably a little too high for Magikarp. A is good for it (especially Diamond and Pearl bc of the slight extra inconvenience)
Magikarp, Gyarados (all three games)
Availability: The old rod is handed out by someone in Jubilife City's west gate, and can immediately be used to encounter Magikarp a few dozen steps further on Route 218. This means Magikarp can be caught before the first (DP) second (Pt) rival battle. It can be encountered at level 15, so you don't have to deal with leveling it up while its only move is splash.
Evolution: I think this factor is just as critical as stuff like typing and movepool, so I'll be describing this in future nominations and write-ups, and I hope others do too. As for Magikarp specifically, it evolves at level 20. Because Magikarp can't learn any good moves, there's no reason to delay Magikarp's evolution any longer than level 20. It only has to be a Magikarp for 5 levels, so it shouldn't be too much of a deadweight. If you let it gain some experience from every battle, then your Magikarp should become a monstrosity of a base 125 physical attack stat before battling Gardenia.
Stats: As many people know, Magikarp's stats are among the worst of all time. This forces people to do the thing that requires putting Magikarp first in the party and switching on the first turn of each battle. Upon evolution, the base physical attack stat shoots to 125, tying Gyarados with Cranidos for the highest base physical attack of all Pokemon that can reasonably be obtained before battling Gardenia. While its base speed never goes higher than 81, it can still outspeed most opponents. This, and the fact that intimidate effectively gives extra bulk, allows Gyarados to remain useful even after the Pokemon League is defeated.
Typing: Magikarp's stats and movepool prevent it from being useful in battle, so Magikarp's typing is almost irrelevant. Gyarados definitely benefits from its water type because not many notable late-game opponents resist water, and nearly half of the Elite Four's Pokemon are weak to water. Gyarados benefits defensively as well, as the water type only has two weaknesses. Gyarados's flying type doesn't help much, as it can't learn any good flying attacks. Its only useful benefit is the neutralizing of the grass weakness. While the flying type does increase vulnerability to electric, it manages to keep the weakness count at two, which is still better than most other Pokemon.
Movepool: Gyarados quickly dragon rage, which 2HKO's everything up to Maylene. Just as NPCs start surviving dragon rages, it learns two very strong moves in ice fang (super effective against 4 types) and aqua tail (powerful STAB). It learns dragon dance a bit later, so it can pull off dragon dance sweeps against several notable late-game opponents. As for HMs, Gyarados can learn rock smash, surf, strength, and waterfall. It can be made to work using only one moveslot (tackle -> bite -> dragon rage -> aqua tail -> waterfall), so Gyarados is a good HM slave. Because its two best STABs are aqua tail and waterfall, neither of which require TMs, Gyarados can get very close to its full potential without using TMs. If you don't care about saving your TMs, Gyarados can be improved by learning earthquake.
Major Battles: These are the notable opponents that Gyarados can 1v1 without overleveling, using items in-battle, or using TMs.
Gardenia: Turtwig
Jupiter (Eterna City): Zubat, Skuntank
Fantina (Pt): Duskull, Haunter, Mismagius
Barry (Hearthome City): Staravia, Ponyta, Roselia, Buizel, Grotle, Monferno, Prinplup
Maylene: Meditite, Machoke, Lucario
Barry (Pastoria City): Ponyta, Roselia, Buizel, Starly, Staravia, Grotle, Monferno, Prinplup
Wake: Gyarados, Quagsire, Floatzel
Cyrus (Celestic Town): Sneasel, Golbat, Murkrow
Fantina (DP): Drifblim, Gengar, Mismagius
Barry (Canalave City): Ponyta, Rapidash, Roselia, Roserade, Buizel, Floatzel, Staravia, Staraptor, Heracross, Grotle, Torterra, Monferno, Infernape, Prinplup, Empoleon
Byron: Bronzor, Steelix, Bastiodon
Saturn (Lake Valor): Kadabra, Golbat, Bronzor, Toxicroak
Mars (Lake Verity): Golbat, Bronzor, Purugly
Candice: Snover, Medicham, Sneasel, Piloswine, Abomasnow, Froslass
Cyrus (Veilstone City): Sneasel, Golbat, Crobat, Murkrow, Honchkrow
Saturn (Veilstone City): Kadabra, Golbat, Bronzor, Toxicroak
Mars and Jupiter: both Bronzors, both Golbats, Purugly, Skuntank
Cyrus (Spear Pillar): Honchkrow, Gyarados, Crobat, Weavile
Cyrus (Distortion World): Houndoom, Crobat, Gyarados, Honchkrow, Weavile
Barry (Pokemon League): Staraptor, Rapidash, Roserade, Floatzel, Heracross, Snorlax, Torterra, Infernape, Empoleon
Aaron: Beautifly, Dustox, Yanmega, Scizor, Heracross, Vespiquen, Drapion
Bertha: Quagsire, Whiscash, Sudowoodo, Golem, Rhyperior, Hippowdon
Flint: Houndoom, Flareon, Lopunny, Steelix, Drifblim, Rapidash, Infernape
Lucian: Espeon, Gallade, Girafarig, Medicham, Alakazam, Bronzong
Cynthia: Spiritomb, Roserade, Gastrodon, Lucario, Milotic, Garchomp
In other words, everything that knows no electric attacks (and lots of opponents that do) become positive matchups as soon as Gyarados learns dragon rage.
Additional Comments: While it is true that Magikarp is mostly a deadweight until it evolves and learns dragon rage, it can defeat almost everything once it does. I think Gyarados's stats and movepool are far more than enough to make up for its initial uselessness. Gyarados's ability, intimidate, only makes it more bulky and gives more chances to defeat the opponent. Due to the high-level encounter, relatively early evolution, good offensive and defensive typing, good ability, great movepool that includes dragon rage, aqua tail, and several HM moves, and most importantly, stellar stats, I nominate Magikarp for S tier in all three games.
I'm not sure of that source. I checked Psypokes (which could be wrong) and it said 3-10 in D/P but 3-15 in Platinum (with the Old Rod, not the Good Rod). Maybe someone else can corroborate this as I can't remember what level magikarp was the last time I fished for one in Diamond.Chimchar and Starly both fully evolve a bit later than Magikarp does, so the time spent evolving Magikarp (from around Mars to around Gardenia) is shorter than the time that Magikarp is better than those two (from around Gardenia to around Fantina (DP) the Pastoria rival battle (Pt)). Even after all of them are fully evolved, Gyarados's physical attack stat is still better than those of the other S tier Pokemon. In addition to all that, Gyarados learns dragon rage quite early, making it able to 2HKO everything from Gardenia to Maylene. I think Magikarp is just as good as Starly and Chimchar.
But I also would say that S rank should be reserved for pokes that are great from the get-go and don't need any babying to perform (of which Magikarp does need a little regardless; the bait and switch method takes quite a while for early game when you pretty much have to stay in wild grass). Chimchar and Starly are at least useful the second you get them, (especially compared to other early pokes) unlike Magikarp which is useless for roughly five levels that you have to take time to grind it up for (time better spent training other pokes arguably). That's why I think it should be A rather than S (again that Gyarados in the Great Marsh may be worthy of S, but idk)
I don't really think I'd agree with Gyarados being better than Starly, who manages to be useful and reliable throughout pretty much every area of the game, whether it's a normal battle or a boss -- the only unfavourable matchup I can think of is Roark, as Staraptor manages to muscle past the last three gyms with Close Combat decently enough despite having a type disadvantage. Though even then, if you've gone as far as evolving into Staravia before Roark - not terribly unrealistic with that low Level 14 - then it still manages to be useful with Intimidate.
But I digress -- in what way is Gyarados superior to Staraptor for in-game purposes?
But I digress -- in what way is Gyarados superior to Staraptor for in-game purposes?
I'm not saying Gyarados is useless or anything. I'm saying the difference between S tier and A tier should have some factor deciding it, like resources needed to use/acquire said pokemon. Regardless of how good Gyarados is, you will have to baby it for even a few levels, which makes it more time consuming to raise than either Chimchar or Starly. Personally, I would hesitate to use Magikarp because I would have to take time in the early portion of the game (when I want to play) to grind a Magikarp by splitting experience against wild pokes.
Also, I never heard what your source was for the level 15 magikarp in D/P, so I still question the ability to get a level 15 magikarp in those games with the Old Rod.
So if a Pokemon could be caught early in the game and required a few levels of babying, and then all its stats instantly shot up to 130 and it learned a strong attack for every type, then it still wouldn't qualify for S tier because it requires those few levels of babying?
By the way, you don't need to grind Magikarp on wild Pokemon. Splitting experience in trainer battles should be enough.
Right. Here it is.
Yeah I would say it wouldn't qualify for S tier to me because that you would have to spend valuable time splitting experience (which means other team members don't get as much) during the early part of the game - the time in the game I personally want to run through quickly to get to better stuff, evos, etc. And I know you can split exp with trainers, but I personally don't like to bc there are only a limited number of trainers on each route and would prefer to get enough training from the trainers and very few wild pokes (if that makes sense; basically I don't want to risk my other pokes being underleveled bc I split too much exp from trainers - hence my reference to wild battles because that's how I would do it). And I will listen to Bulbapedia, so that matter is at least settled until someone says otherwise
0 Atk Gyarados Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quagsire: 22-27 (20.7 - 25.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Staravia Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quagsire: 22-27 (20.7 - 25.4%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Done at Level 30 with no EVs, neutral natures, and IVs of 16 (0 for Quag, which I picked randomly for neutral damage). They literally have the same damage output before Gyarados gets Aqua Tail at Level 35, which is one level after you get Staraptor. Staravia will probably out-damage anyway since you get it earlier, which means it'll have a bunch of random Attack EVs.
If you give the bird Return there's like no contest, especially since you get it super early in Platinum.
The Attack advantage Gyarados has over Staravia is pretty irrelevant for the most part because it gets its STAB so late and it's relying on Dragon Rage anyway.
0 Atk Staravia Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quagsire: 22-27 (20.7 - 25.4%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Done at Level 30 with no EVs, neutral natures, and IVs of 16 (0 for Quag, which I picked randomly for neutral damage). They literally have the same damage output before Gyarados gets Aqua Tail at Level 35, which is one level after you get Staraptor. Staravia will probably out-damage anyway since you get it earlier, which means it'll have a bunch of random Attack EVs.
If you give the bird Return there's like no contest, especially since you get it super early in Platinum.
The Attack advantage Gyarados has over Staravia is pretty irrelevant for the most part because it gets its STAB so late and it's relying on Dragon Rage anyway.
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sin(pi)
lucky n bad
https://www.serebii.net/pokearth/sinnoh/route218.shtml
According to this, Magikarp is available up to level 10 in DP, and up to level 15 in Pt. Assuming that the level is distributed uniformly (most likely untrue; higher levels should have a slightly reduced chance) you have an effective encounter rate of 25% in DP (for level 9/10) and ~23% in Pt (for level 13-15). In DP I think that babying a Magikarp for 10+ levels (at a time where you need to focus on levelling up your main party) means it should be no higher than A. Pt you could maybe argue for S (it can have Tackle on capture and you have like 10 levels on the trainers...!) but even there, it seems to be pushing it slightly - Gyarados isn't quite dominant to the extent where it can fight for S imo (though I'm sure people can disagree with me on this, and if so, please do say so and why).
Dragon Rage is very cool but not really relevant once things start hitting 81+ HP, because you should be at worst 2HKOing them - for the most part, of course.
According to this, Magikarp is available up to level 10 in DP, and up to level 15 in Pt. Assuming that the level is distributed uniformly (most likely untrue; higher levels should have a slightly reduced chance) you have an effective encounter rate of 25% in DP (for level 9/10) and ~23% in Pt (for level 13-15). In DP I think that babying a Magikarp for 10+ levels (at a time where you need to focus on levelling up your main party) means it should be no higher than A. Pt you could maybe argue for S (it can have Tackle on capture and you have like 10 levels on the trainers...!) but even there, it seems to be pushing it slightly - Gyarados isn't quite dominant to the extent where it can fight for S imo (though I'm sure people can disagree with me on this, and if so, please do say so and why).
Dragon Rage is very cool but not really relevant once things start hitting 81+ HP, because you should be at worst 2HKOing them - for the most part, of course.
It isn't even stronger than Staraptor because Staraptor gets STAB on Return and eventually learns Brave Bird. Also, like I said earlier, Gyarados's lack of STAB until Level 35 stifles its damage output and prevents it from beating out Staravia.
Infernape gets a high BP STAB just before it evolves, giving it comparable (or higher, too lazy to calc it now) damage output to Gyarados despite a lower Attack stat. It can also go mixed due to good Special Attack and has a much better movepool going for it.
Hell, Monferno also has slightly higher Attack than Staravia and a higher BP STAB move (Flame Wheel), so Gyarados doesn't outdamage it pre-STAB, either.
Infernape gets a high BP STAB just before it evolves, giving it comparable (or higher, too lazy to calc it now) damage output to Gyarados despite a lower Attack stat. It can also go mixed due to good Special Attack and has a much better movepool going for it.
Hell, Monferno also has slightly higher Attack than Staravia and a higher BP STAB move (Flame Wheel), so Gyarados doesn't outdamage it pre-STAB, either.
Well sin(pi) said Magikarp is only Level 10 in DP so it's much more of a pain to train especially when you should be moving forward in the game rather than splitting that much exp. And I would echo the part about Dragon Rage; 40 damage at a time only gets you so far for so long. A should be sufficient for Magikarp (in Platinum at least)
Clarifying that Level 15 Magikarp on Route 218 is Platinum exclusive - the highest level you can find Karp with via an Old Rod on D/P is level 10.
(Source: AngefloSH's Encounter Calculator, which actually extracts encounter table data directly from the games)
Granted, the level 15 argument holds little water to begin with, considering you have a 1% chance of finding level 15 Magikarp with an Old Rod on Platinum. Waiting around for a potential 30-60 minutes just to save 5 levels of babying with a level 15 Magikarp seems like the precise opposite of efficiency to me, and 10+ levels of babying absolutely drags down the performance of even something as overwhelmingly strong as Gen 4 Gyarados.
Magikarp is A at best.
(Source: AngefloSH's Encounter Calculator, which actually extracts encounter table data directly from the games)
Granted, the level 15 argument holds little water to begin with, considering you have a 1% chance of finding level 15 Magikarp with an Old Rod on Platinum. Waiting around for a potential 30-60 minutes just to save 5 levels of babying with a level 15 Magikarp seems like the precise opposite of efficiency to me, and 10+ levels of babying absolutely drags down the performance of even something as overwhelmingly strong as Gen 4 Gyarados.
Magikarp is A at best.
Somehow I never used the word efficiency in my posts (just danced around it lol), but Magikarp is a bad timesink that lowers efficiency if you're having to split exp for so long when you should just be advancing through that part of the game with no exp splitting (for your overall party's benefit). Also, much appreciation for clearing up the encounter level issue - I would still argue Magikarp for B in D/P because of that. I think this should clear up the Gyarados discussion for the time being.
This is, once again, where experience would come in handy rather than theorymonning -- if the argument is predicated on "Well I'm pretty sure though not 100% certain that this is what happens", then it simply becomes moot.
Though for what it's worth, Gyarados learns Dragon Rage at Level 23 -- so unless you're power-levelling like heck, at that point Dragon Rage shouldn't be capable of OHKOing most opponents, while Staravia should also be capable of 2HKOing opponents. Dragon Rage is a decent move, even great for this point in the game; but I think you're overestimating its usefulness and relying on it too much for this argument.
Though for what it's worth, Gyarados learns Dragon Rage at Level 23 -- so unless you're power-levelling like heck, at that point Dragon Rage shouldn't be capable of OHKOing most opponents, while Staravia should also be capable of 2HKOing opponents. Dragon Rage is a decent move, even great for this point in the game; but I think you're overestimating its usefulness and relying on it too much for this argument.
I think I can concur more with Old Rod Magikarp in B Rank and reserving the same or A Rank for the Great Marsh Gyarados. Gyarados misses a few battles where it would pull weight beforehand (Bite for Pt Fantina and Intimidate for Maylene), and is only a 5% rate with the Good Rod, which is the main point where I hesitate on its placement for efficiency.
My question is, what puts Croagunk in C Rank? Assuming you give him the Brick Break TM, he gets decent coverage out of STABs and Rock Climb/Strength or one of the Elemental Punches from the Pastoria Tutor, letting him pull weight in some important battles as well as alleviate Bibarel's HM load. Also has reasonable stats for in game purposes if you're willing to use Nasty Plot or a Swords Dance TM for him. He's got sufficient coverage for either spectrum (Fight, Poison, Dark/Ghost), with the hangup being the need for TM's on at least one move for either (Shadow Ball for special since Dark Pulse is in Victory Road). I can see some item reliance since his speed tier is just okay (albeit with Tutors granting either spectrum a Priority option for frailer enemies), but in my DP run I had him loaded with two HM's (Rock Smash and Climb) and found he wasn't significantly item dependent to pull his weight to my team. I will say I don't have much experience with it in Platinum though, and I can see the first glaring flaw being the Fighting Coverage on two of the S Ranks, but I think that if considered on their own, Toxicroak makes a nice little customizable supplement with his unorthodox coverage and Tutor options, Dry Skin's Water immunity, and ability to reasonably play on either spectrum or carry a mixed option.
My question is, what puts Croagunk in C Rank? Assuming you give him the Brick Break TM, he gets decent coverage out of STABs and Rock Climb/Strength or one of the Elemental Punches from the Pastoria Tutor, letting him pull weight in some important battles as well as alleviate Bibarel's HM load. Also has reasonable stats for in game purposes if you're willing to use Nasty Plot or a Swords Dance TM for him. He's got sufficient coverage for either spectrum (Fight, Poison, Dark/Ghost), with the hangup being the need for TM's on at least one move for either (Shadow Ball for special since Dark Pulse is in Victory Road). I can see some item reliance since his speed tier is just okay (albeit with Tutors granting either spectrum a Priority option for frailer enemies), but in my DP run I had him loaded with two HM's (Rock Smash and Climb) and found he wasn't significantly item dependent to pull his weight to my team. I will say I don't have much experience with it in Platinum though, and I can see the first glaring flaw being the Fighting Coverage on two of the S Ranks, but I think that if considered on their own, Toxicroak makes a nice little customizable supplement with his unorthodox coverage and Tutor options, Dry Skin's Water immunity, and ability to reasonably play on either spectrum or carry a mixed option.
For the last time, Magikarp is NOT efficient and that alone should keep it from S rank (and 10 levels should keep it from A). Let's not let this continued Magikarp discussion derail the thread.
To chime in on Croagunk, I could see it rising to B because it does get a lot of coverage, but I haven't quite gotten around to using it myself (plan on using it in my next sinnoh play through though). I don't think Level 37 is too bad for evolving, especially for a potential B rank (would think something like Dratini evolving into Dragonite at Level 55 is more problematic considering that would be endgame or postgame in most games)
Deleted User 400951
Banned deucer.
Level 37 would be fine but for me but it just comes at a bad time. It comes at level 26 - best case scenario - meaning it needs 11 levels of babying. I do understand that it can nab that experience instantly with the Water gym but that's depriving some other mons of getting exp from that gym. Then what? It does beat the Ice gym, yes, but it doesn't do jack vs Team Galactic without Rock Slide. Then, vs Volkner (Platinum), it can do well enough vs Jolteon but the rest of them just hammer it down due to its frailty. I will admit that in DP this matchup is much better (an octillery in a electric gym...). In the Platinum E4 this thing just sucks. Aaron isn't particularly a strong matchup for him, Bertha just murders Toxicroak, Flint exploits Dry Skin - which you need for it to be able to beat Crasher Wake and get that exp - and Lucian isn't exactly the best for Toxicroak (outside of Sucker Punch this thing just dies). Platinum Cynthia has only two pokemon that don't flat-out beat it - Lucario (which still does a number with ESpeed) and Milotic. So with these terrible matchups in mind, Croagunk has it rough in Platinum. IMO it's D there.
EDIT: I wrote so much I'm just gonna write a formal nomination for this.
Croagunk/Toxicroak (Pt)
Availability: Croagunk can be found in Route 212 or the Great Marsh by the binoculars randomly selecting it. While it has a good chance to be selected, Route 212 is the more reliable way to get it. It comes between levels 20-26. This is not that good of a level for a mid-late game mon, especially with such poor stats.
Evolution: Croagunk evolves into Toxicroak at level 37. Considering the fact that it comes at ~level 22, this is quite a ways off, intensified by Croagunk's generally poor stats. However, it can get free experience from Crasher Wake.
Stats: Honestly Croagunk's stats just aren't very good, with 61 base offenses being low for when you catch it and 50 base speed being horrible. The defensive stats are just straight-up bad with 48/40/40 bulk getting it pretty much OHKOed by any SE attack and plenty of neutral ones too. Toxicroak's stats are decent but nothing special - it has 106 base Attack, 86 base Special Attack and 85 base speed. It has pathetic 83/65/65 defenses, however, and will still likely be OHKOed by SE attacks regardless (though it can live a neutral hit).
Typing: Poison/Fighting honestly is not that great a typing. It hits 6 types super-effectively but of those only 2 of the major remaining battles prominently feature typings it beats ( Byron the steel gym and Candice the Ice-type gym), with one having an answer to it. It gets hit SE by Flying, Ground and especially Psychic, which, considering the abundance of those types of moves in the game, and in consideration with its poor defenses, means it has pretty much no defensive potential whatsoever and will be OHKOed quite often.
Movepool: It starts off with Revenge at level 22, which is unfortunately the only physical Fighting STAB it'll get via level-up. It gets Sucker Punch at level 31, and Nasty Plot at 36 if you want to go the special route. At level 38, it gets Poison Jab, and at level 45 it gets Sludge Bomb. However, there is no reason to run Poison STAB on it because it doesn't really hit much Fighting STAB doesn't and Croagunk/Toxicroak already has 4MSS anyways. By TM it can get Focus Blast for special Fighting STAB, Brick Break for physical fighting STAB, Rock Slide to let it beat Team Galactic, Sludge Bomb to get it early (not as though it'll help because as I said it's not a good idea to run Poison STAB), and Taunt. It can get the elemental punches from the Pastoria tutor straight when you get it, but that takes up valuable shards. Finally, it gets Strength/Rock Climb via HM if you want to spare your Bibarel, though those don't really improve its coverage by much. It's actually a pretty good movepool, certainly above-average. What's bad, however, is that it has some significant 4MSS. It wants both physical and special Fighting STAB, Thunder Punch/Ice Punch/Rock Slide, Strength/Rock Climb, Vacuum Wave/Sucker Punch, NP, Fire Punch (to not be deadweight vs Aaron) and Taunt all at once, and its performance notably suffers without some of these moves.
Major Battles: This is where it gets bad. Croagunk gets Dry Skin, which lets it beat Crasher Wake if it's not Intimidated by Gyarados. Thunder Punch is very helpful here. It loses to Quagsire though. The rival battle in Canalave is not kind to it, however, with Infernape or Rapidash exploiting Dry Skin, Staraptor and Heracross knowing Aerial Ace, and Empoleon having Aerial Ace. It holds its own pretty decently vs Byron, though it loses to Steelix without Focus Blast. Candice, despite seemingly easy for it, actually beats Toxicroak with Sneasel and Froslass outspeeding and KOing with Aerial Ace/Psychic, respectively, and Piloswine tanking a hit and KOing with EQ. It at least beats Abomasnow though. Team Galactic (how tf did I mix this up with Team Rocket, thanks sumwun for pointing that out) has too many Golbat and Murkrow for it to do much, though it has Rock Slide and Ice/Thunder Punch. Toxicroak deals with the rest of their pokemon decently, however, making it not too poor against them. It doesn't do very well vs Mars and Jupiter with Bronzor having Extrasensory, Golbat having Air Cutter and Purugly having Aerial Ace. Cyrus has Houndoom with Flamethrower to prey on the Dry Skin fire weakness, Gyarados with EQ, Honchkrow with Drill Peck and Crobat with Air Slash. Volkner has nothing that specifically wins but it has fast mons that can wear down and KO. The E4 is a completely losing matchup against all of them. Aaron resists its STAB but does die to Rock Slide and Fire Punch (best matchup of E4), Bertha has EQ all over (too bulky for Ice Punch), Flint exploits Dry Skin and Lucian has Psychic STAB (though Sucker Punch at least lets it take down something). Against Cynthia, it only truly beats Milotic. Everything else has an SE move, with 4 of those being Psychic/Extrasensory and one being Garchomp's EQ. As one can see, Toxicroak has terrible match-ups all across the board.
Additional Comments: You need one with Dry Skin, as it lets you exploit Crasher Wake's water gym to get valuable EXP. As said earlier, there is no reason to run Poison STAB on it because it doesn't really hit much Fighting STAB doesn't and Croagunk/Toxicroak already has 4MSS anyways. It takes up the valuable Rock Slide TM to not be deadweight vs Team Galactic, or shards for Ice/Thunder Punch. Croagunk has just flat-out awful stats for its availability time and will likely be outsped and OHKOed way too often. Toxicroak is much better but it doesn't save it because 85 base speed isn't that great. Overall, Croagunk's weak stats, poor typing, middling speed, reliance on a valuable TM or tutor moves and terrible matchups lead me to nominate it for D rank in Platinum.
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Azelf (all three games)
Availability: Azelf can be caught at Lake Valor, but only after defeating Cyrus for the last time (pretty late), so the only notable opponents that Azelf can battle are Volkner, the rival (once), and the Pokemon League. Even if Azelf is strong in battle, it has fewer positive matchups than something like Gligar would simply because it's available so late. In addition to this, Azelf is hard to catch, having 1/255 unmodified catch chance and roughly 1/24 catch chance when it has 1 HP and dusk balls are used. However, one good thing about Azelf is that it comes at level 50, which is around 5 levels higher than most NPCs' Pokemon around that time, so it can almost solo for a little while.
Evolution: (:
Stats: Its 125 in both attack stats is definitely pretty good, and its 115 base speed allows it to outspeed most things. Its 75/70/70 bulk means it doesn't need constant healing, but still leaves Azelf very vulnerable to super effective attacks.
Typing: For a late-game Pokemon, Azelf's pure psychic typing doesn't help much. Veilstone Gym's fighting Pokemon and Team Galactic's poison Pokemon will already be defeated long before Azelf can be caught. Further, two Elite Four members specialize in bug and psychic Pokemon, which obviously puts Azelf at type disadvantages. Azelf's three weaknesses are definitely not fatal, but they do sometimes cause Azelf to lose matches, especially when compounded with Azelf's low defenses.
Movepool: Azelf's level up movepool is definitely okay, already knowing nasty plot when caught and learning extrasensory immediately after. Unfortunately, extrasensory isn't super effective against many of the notable late-game opponents. Fortunately, Azelf can learn fire blast, and a TM for fire blast can be picked up at Lake Verity and replaced for only P5500. Azelf can't learn any HM moves, so it won't be very helpful in that aspect.
Major Battles: These are the notable opponents that Azelf can 1v1 without overleveling (except for, of course, opponents lower than level 50), using TMs, and using items in-battle.
Volkner: Raichu, Ambipom, Octillery, Jolteon, Electivire, Luxray
Barry: Rapidash, Roserade, Floatzel, Staraptor, Infernape
Aaron: Beautifly, Dustox
Bertha: Gliscor, Quagsire, Whiscash, Sudowoodo, Golem
Flint: Rapidash, Steelix, Lopunny, Infernape
Lucian: Gallade, Medicham
Cynthia: Togekiss, Lucario, Roserade, Gastrodon
Azelf's late availability restricts its usefulness to only seven major battles, four (DP) three (Pt) of which are positive matchups. While Azelf's stats are pretty good, the main reasons why Azelf has few good matchups (or at least requires TMs to have more) are its typing, which causes it to be weak to megahorns, crunches, and shadow balls used by the rival and many Elite Fours' Pokemon, and its shallow level-up movepool, which makes Azelf useless against most things that resist extrasensory.
Additional Comments: While Azelf may look strong at first glance, its bad offensive typing and reliance on TMs does hinder it. Possibly by a random coincidence, psychic Pokemon work especially poorly against the Elite Four, and Azelf's late availability prevents it from being used in many other battles. Mainly because of late availability, but also due to low defenses, below-average offensive typing, and reliance on TMs, I nominate Azelf for B (or maybe C) tier in all three games.
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