ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

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Yeah, I still think that Durant isn't all that good, but it has a nice niche actually, it deserves C- imo, mostly because of it's Ability. Have Physical Moves with a boost of 1.5 in power is awesome, but have a 20% chance to miss them sucks, you can run Hone Claws, but Durant is still too frail to setup.

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 239-282 (92.9 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 249-294 (96.8 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 254-299 (98.8 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 135-159 (52.5 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 261-308 (101.5 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 278-329 (108.1 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 110-129 (42.8 - 50.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

What I need to say is, Durant acts better as a Revenge Killer, but there are a lot of Pokémon that are better while doing this role, like Choice Scarf Hydreigon or even Beedrill-Mega, but it has a "viable niche". C- is good for me.

Now, one new nomination:

from Unranked to C-/C:
So, Sneasel is a nice Pokémon to use on Offense, since it is a fast Pursuit Trapper, it can threat a ton of Pokémon with a priority Ice Shard, two good coverage options in Iron Tail and Low Kick, aside of it's huge Attack stat with one of the best moves in the game: Knock Off. Sneasel is a good Dragon Check, a nice Pursuit Trapper and one hard switching STAB, why is this still unranked? You can always run Mamoswine to use Ice Shard or Krookodile to run Knock Off and defeat stuff like Cresselia, but no one of them can defeat Bulky Psychics + Check Dragon Types + KO Celebi like Sneasel can man. Unfortunately, it is still very frail and can't hit Fighting-Types effectively, aside of it's weakness to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, common STABs in UU. Sneasel can run one Choice Band Set too, but it will lack it's huge movepool. Ultimately, I'm using this set, and it can defeat and surprise a lot of unprepared teams:

Sneasel @ Life Orb
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
- Low Kick / Iron Tail
How I introduced it before, Sneasel is a good Wallbreaker that has a nice priority STAB and that can Pursuit Pshychic-Types, but I like the how it is underrated by the most of the people. It can defeat a ton of Offensive Cores after Stealth Rock, and can't only hit hard, it can hit fast. All the Pokémon that are faster than Sneasel can't switch in it, and every Pokémon that is slower than it will have it's Item Knock Offed. The reason to run it over some Stuff like Krookodile or Mamoswine is that you are very fast, has a good Priority Move, can Pursuit Trap Celebi and lastly, it has two good coverage moves, Iron Tail can hit Florges and Sylveon, since Low Kick can hit Cobalion and other Steel-Types. So, yeah, Sneasel to C-/C Rank.
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
I agree Durant is at least C- with its CB set. Ill get straight to the point:


252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 159-187 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 330-390 (74.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 630-744 (193.8 - 228.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 418-492 (129 - 151.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 378-446 (144.8 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 940-1108 (131.6 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 198-233 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 222-262 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 162-192 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 204 HP / 248+ Def Vaporeon: 256-303 (56.6 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 162-192 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 165-195 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 578-680 (155.3 - 182.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 121-144 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 276-326 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Nidoqueen: 207-244 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Rotom-H: 198-234 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 145-172 (36.8 - 43.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 201-237 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 476-564 (120.8 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I haven't used Hone Claws but I know from experience that CB Durant isn't useless in UU.
 
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I've been using durant a bit recently, it's heat. Nice speed tier, great typing, decent power after a LO or HC boost and "enough" bulk to do it's job on offense. Bit surprised it's unrated

Hone claws lum durant calcs vs fat things

+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 216-255 (44.9 - 53%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 260-308 (78.5 - 93%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mega Swampert: 175-207 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It's pretty sexy, you do miss the 2 hit KO on chesnaught and the ohko on fully physdef fatmence without life orb but that's...about it

Similarly Adamant life orb rock polish durant does work and while the acc drop sucks it's... not bad.

252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 207-243 (43 - 50.5%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Doublade calcs for giggles

252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 156-185 (48.9 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 162-192 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I'm not a fan of HC + LO, lum is just more useful overall but if you do decide to run that set....

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 352-415 (100.2 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 352-415 (85 - 100.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Neutrally ohkoing conk and other members of the "bulky offense" ter is pretty sweet

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 429-507 (96.8 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is a thing.

Reminder that this POS has baton pass and considerable overlap with some very threatening sweepers/wallbreakers.
 
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You forgot poison jab vs the faeries and Tangrowth.

Also, vs mence, you will lose the first calc, because of the fact you'll lose due to Hax having a lower base speed. The rest, they're pretty useless + aren't just resisted. Plus it's super easy to take advantage of Outrage.
 
For a first post, there's not much wrong with it, but I'm gonna pick it apart to explain why Haxorus should stay in C if we're basing it from that stuff.

First off, it's speed tier. Compared to other dragon dancers, it's not the slowest; there are Gyarados, Feraligatr, Crawdaunt, and probably a few others I missed. Each of those has a niche as well, and the latter two prefer Swords Dance. However, Crawdaunt has Adaptability and great stab moves. Gyarados has a secondary typing giving it a nice immunity and a good few resists. Feraligatr has Sheer Force, which makes it a scary force to be reckoned with if you let it set up.

Haxorus, in comparison, has Mold Breaker and a single Dragon Typing. Now, Salamence has the same kind of issue since it doesn't have a feasible flying stab unless you're Gully and run Aerial Ace for some reason. But Salamence has the advantage of both Moxie and Intimidate, with one turning it into a snowballing effect and the other making it easier to set up in comparison to Haxorus, which is actually less bulky and has less speed.

I guess living an Ice Shard is useful, but that's only if you need to take just one. Otherwise, you can't set up on a lot of the things Mence couldn't either. Now, taking a look at a lot of the calcs, it's easy enough to see how some of these would come into play. Except a lot also wouldn't. No sane man would leave their Entei in on Haxorus, so that calc is out. Also, Cobalion often runs Shuca berry so unless you're a Dragon Dance set, it can set up a Swords Dance and OHKO with Close Combat.

+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 333-393 (113.6 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, Salamence will always outspeed unless you have a DD under your belt, but since it's -1 I'll assume not. And while SR is often up, played smart, it can also not be. So we have this list left of things that it can break through.

252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 146-174 (45.3 - 54%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftover
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mega Swampert: 188-224 (46.8 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 257-304 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 142-168 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 142-168 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 173-204 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 231-274 (48 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 130-153 (39 - 45.9%) -- 20.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Now, I see things that aren't really super impressive. Haxorus might have the highest Attack in the tier, but the problem is it relies so strongly on Outrage to break through things, and that can easily be exploited, especially due to the fact that we just got Sylveon which will absolutely destroy it. The rest of these can take that one turn it survives and actually do some huge chunk of damage in return. Mega Swampert can set up Rain Dance on the first turn and do a shitload of damage with Ice Punch. Doublade can do a chunk with Iron Head or Shadow Claw. Florges actually has a pretty good chance to OHKO with Moonblast, if I'm not mistaken. Tangrowth... what the hell does that thing do? Somebody brief me on that.

Even Alomomola can WishTect on your Outrage, and if it's running Rocky Helmet, you're taking damage too. Suicune can just sit there and Scald or Rest, so unless you're running Lum (which this set wouldn't be, because LO), you're risking crippling it. So you need to use a Lum Berry sometimes too, which takes away a lot of these 2hkos and turns them into 3HKOs, impressive but about 90% of the tier can do that these days.

Keeping it at C+ when there are things that do the same job much more effectively and have much more versatility would be the best call. Maybe if one of the big dragons left it could step up, but for now, there's not much use to it.
 

Hilomilo

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Donphan to C or C-

I've made this nom before, and it didn't really start much conversation, but in comparing Donphan to mons in C+ such as Fletchinder and Honchkrow, you'd find that it sticks out like a sore thumb. It has stealth rocks and rapid spin, which is nice, but is outclassed as both a defensive spinner and setter by Forretress, who has access to more entry hazards, volt switch, and better bulk and typing. Donphan's okay as an offensive spinner, but still faces immense competition as an offensive ground type from Krookodile and Mamoswine, due to it's pitiful special bulk and speed and both mentioned mons having more power (Krook being banded). I just don't understand the incentive to use this thing with spinners like Tentacruel and Forretress roaming the tier, and especially with offensive ground-type behemoths with better coverage (Krook, Mamo, and even Mega Pert).
 
i agree, i feel like donphans only niche is a ground type spinner that can block volt switches, but only from choice locked mons bc pretty much any other mon that learns volt switch that can switch moves is going to OHKO donphan. It also has the niche of being surprise band and possibly nabbing a surprise KO on something, but other than that ya its completely outclassed
 
Dear christ I'm about to defend donphan x.x

Odd as it may sound donphan does have a solid niche that earns it a C+ ranking, albeit one it is never ever used for on the ladder, but a niche none the less.

Donphan @ Lum Berry/Earth Plate
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off/Seed Bomb

Donphan is notable for its ability to remove every single spin blocker in the tier. Knock off +EQ 2 hit KO's jellicent (or just 2 earth plate EQ's), play rough has an 87.5% chance to ohko sab after rocks and can ruin spiritombs, EQ simply removes chandelure from existence, and it's more than capable of 2 hit KOing Doublade, 128 speed ev's hit's 167 speed and outruns uninvested base 65 or lower and is frankly the raw minimum speed invest on any offensive utility pokemon. It's also much more difficult to force rocks or spikes back up on a well played donphan when compared to it's contemporaries (tentacruel and forry do fuck all to stop pert and empo from just resetting rocks)

TL:DR donphan is fine if you don't run ice shard.
 
Hi everyone, I know this has been touched upon, but here is my input regarding Donphan.

Donphan: C+ ---> To the depths of hell (C-).

I really don't understand the reason why people still use this thing. As a defensive spinner, it is outclassed by Forretress, who's better typing and mixed bulk gives it more opportunities to spin. As a rocks setter with offensive presence, Krookodile completely outclasses it. Both have similar bulk when you factor in intimidate, and Krookodile is not only faster, but actually supports the team with pursuit (to kill common leads like Azelf and Frostlass) and knock off.

One might argue that Donphan's advantage over Krookodile is that it can also spin while setting up rocks. But realistically, its horrible special defence and speed, in conjunction with its lack of recovery, makes its ability to do both in one game really impractical. Plus, it's really not hard to include hazard control on another Pokemon when teambuilding.

Please just move this thing down, it isn't good. It has no niche, and its function in the tier is completely outclassed by other Pokemon, notably swampert (better typing, mixed bulk, and scald), forretress (as a defensive spinner: better defensive typing, spikes and momentum via volt switch) and Krookodile (as a rocks setter with an offensive presence, see reasoning above). Other Pokemon in the C+ rank have specific niches that can help certain team archetypes (fleth for a revenge killer, for example), but Donphan is just outclassed in everything it does.


Sorry Donphan, but you're just not good :/.
 
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dingbat

snek
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Few noms to comment on:

Durant from Unranked to C-/C is definitely fair, when taking into account its qualities and weaknesses. Its ability to wallbreak with its combination of Hustle and either a Choice Band set or a Hone Claws set, while having a base 109 speed to outspeed common threats like Cobalion and Ape, is pretty damn lethal at times, as shown by some previous calcs by other users. However, its rather thin defensive qualities greatly limits its amount of opportunities to switch into the field, and not to mention, having every single of its useful moves reduced to 80 accuracy or less really kills its reliability.

Mega Shark from A to A- is something I'm on the fence with. I agree that sylv and conk are definitely annoying pos for Shark (especially conk), but I also think Destiny Bond on Mega Shark is a move that should be brought to light, since it's still a highly underrated option that makes players think twice about whether risking the sacrifice in order to net the ko was such a great idea after all. As someone who really loves running Destiny Bond shark, it's not losing out on too much with the loss of Ice Fang, as Waterfall + Crunch still gives it fantastic coverage vs a vast portion of this meta. Again, not totally against the idea of dropping shark, but I feel that a little more exploring with its options before dropping it is the way to go here.

Donphan from C+ to C is pretty justified. As a physical ground type, it is outperformed by the likes of Krookodile and (mega) Swampert, and heck, I may as well even include Rhyperior because I think it's better than Donphan overall. As a spinner, it's outperformed by Tenta and Forry, because both of them have superior defensive qualities, and they generally don't fuck up momentum in a battle as hard as Donphan does. Overall, is Donphan outclassed? No, because I feel that most ladderers have been running the shitty eq+spin+rocks+ice shard set that is way too easy to take advantage of, instead of something that allows Donphan to take advantage of its 120 base attack and its not-too-shabby moveset, while being able to spin. However, I find that on about all of the teams I build, I always consider the numerous better options before Donphan comes to mind.

Florges from A to A- definitely needs to happen. Having Sylveon in this meta definitely hurt its viability as a domino effect from players generally preparing more for Sylveon. However, as long as Sylveon doesn't acquire a one turn recovery move, Florges will always be the superior Fairy-type CM sweeper, as well as a viable cleric with Wish+Synthesis.

Haxorus from C+ to B- is a no-no. Although it does a somewhat better job steamrolling through stall than its biggest competition Salamence does with SD, it's nowhere near easy to justify placing Haxorus on a team over the better dragons, because not only does its unfortunate base 97 speed leave it extremely vulnerable to big threats like Hydreigon and Mence, and the fairies running amok right now in this meta just ain't doing it any favors right now.
 
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Cresselia to A seems pretty justified seeing as how it's an extremely capable CM sweeper and has such a wide range of support options that make it so good right now. If anything I see it as a slightly better Florges, but with the threat of Florges dropping down to A- it's difficult to see it on the same level as things like Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill, and Sylveon. However, I can definetely see it alongside Whimsicott, Sableye, and Reuniclus due to the expansive amount of support options it has. Frankly, I think it's being given just a little too much credit. Yes, it does check about 90% of the metagame in a single nifty slot, but it's recovery is Moonlight which has very limited PP that can leave it overwhelmed by a fair amount of threats it does check. Not to mention that Taunt leaves it completely helpless and subject to what it's facing. Obviously, this is thinking more on the few flaws it has and not focusing more the numerous pros it has, but they're things to keep in mind before moving it.

I think Sneasel has what it takes to be C- since it has a unique niche in being quite fast, access to Pursuit, and being a decently powerful sweeper with Swords Dance. Of course it's not the only Dark-type with SD and compete with Mega Absol, Zoroark, and Pangoro but it has something that each of them don't have; not taking the Mega Slot, having secondary STAB + much better Speed, and not being slow as molasses respectively.

I don't feel like Mega Sharpedo should drop yet, it's still quite a potent cleaner despite the many annoying threats that continue to inhibit it. Nothing has given that push, that makes it an A- threat. All the new drops are annoyances for it, but they don't exactly make it less viable. Mega Sharpedo is a check to Celebi and benefits it as a teammate. Sylveon has to be quite healthy to revenge kill it and Conkeldurr just decimates it with Mach Punch, which makes it the one to be an actual force that makes it marginally worse. So all in all, yes it's gotten a bit worse, but not that much to be A-
 
Florges from A to A- definitely needs to happen. Having Sylveon in this meta definitely hurt its viability as a domino effect from players generally preparing more for Sylveon. However, as long as Sylveon doesn't acquire a one turn recovery move, Florges will always be the superior Fairy-type CM sweeper, as well as a viable cleric with Wish+Synthesis.
Adding on to this... why would someone ever run Calm Mind Florges if you can just straight up pop stuff with Choice Specs Sylveon? A support set? Sylveon passes more HP with Wish than Florges and can actually still put some offensive pressure up. Even if uninvested, a Pixelate Boosted Hyper Voice still hits hard things that don't resist it or aren't too bulky. Moreover, between protect and synthesis, you're giving your opponent a free turn to switch into a check or counter anyways so the result really is virtually the same if they're both running cleric.

Sylveon isn't glaringly outclassed by anything Florges does, but the reciprocal isn't true. I really don't see why they both should be kept under the same rank when Sylveon is clearly so much better thanks to how versatile it is. Heck, I could see Florges dropping as low as B+ eventually but that's neither here nor there.

Just my two cents.
 

Hilomilo

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Donphan is notable for its ability to remove every single spin blocker in the tier. Knock off +EQ 2 hit KO's jellicent (or just 2 earth plate EQ's), play rough has an 87.5% chance to ohko sab after rocks and can ruin spiritombs, EQ simply removes chandelure from existence, and it's more than capable of 2 hit KOing Doublade, 128 speed ev's hit's 167 speed and outruns uninvested base 65 or lower and is frankly the raw minimum speed invest on any offensive utility pokemon. It's also much more difficult to force rocks or spikes back up on a well played donphan when compared to it's contemporaries (tentacruel and forry do fuck all to stop pert and empo from just resetting rocks)

TL:DR donphan is fine if you don't run ice shard.
While Donphan's niche as a stop to spin blockers is alright, without its lum berry it can easily be crippled by a WOW from Spiritomb, and it can't do much aside from pressuring the mentioned pokes with a set like that. It should also be considered that Jellicent's scald takes over half of its hp away, and an energy ball from Chandelure will wear it down to sturdy, which will prevent it from spinning unless the pokemon switching in after it KOs Chandy is slower than it and lacks priority. A +2 Shadow Sneak from Doublade does at least 62% damage, which can also set other pokemon up to ohko the thing, and like I said before, without Lum Berry it won't appreciate a scald burn or WOW from Jellicent. While it can ohko or 2hko these pokemon, many of them still prevent it from spinning after doing their share of damage to it, as it's been worn down or crippled to the point where it's poor speed keeps it from ridding the field of hazards or even providing any more offensive pressure. You make a fair point in saying that it stops these pokemon, but as I said, they still to an extent keep it from spinning, which is why I think it should still drop to C, but good argument and points!
 
I don't think Spiritomb, who is irrelevant by and large in UU, is a good benchmark for keeping Donphan down. Sableye is far more relevant and does a much better job of shutting Donphan down, though it does fear switching into 252+ EQ.
 

dingbat

snek
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Adding on to this... why would someone ever run Calm Mind Florges if you can just straight up pop stuff with Choice Specs Sylveon? A support set? Sylveon passes more HP with Wish than Florges and can actually still put some offensive pressure up. Even if uninvested, a Pixelate Boosted Hyper Voice still hits hard things that don't resist it or aren't too bulky. Moreover, between protect and synthesis, you're giving your opponent a free turn to switch into a check or counter anyways so the result really is virtually the same if they're both running cleric.

Sylveon isn't glaringly outclassed by anything Florges does, but the reciprocal isn't true. I really don't see why they both should be kept under the same rank when Sylveon is clearly so much better thanks to how versatile it is. Heck, I could see Florges dropping as low as B+ eventually but that's neither here nor there.

Just my two cents.
I know we're both in agreement that Florges should drop, but I feel that your comparisons between the two are fundamentally flawed. Regarding your first point between Specs Sylv and CM Florges, Florges is never meant to be a wallbreaker like Sylveon is, but rather a set up sweeper that generally performs it better than Sylveon does. It has that crucial access to that one click recovery move, and in turn, the luxury to run Aromatherapy so it can literally stay in on 'mons reliant on shit like Toxic, Will o Wisp, or Scald.

Regarding cleric Florges, synthesis again is what separates it from Sylveon. Not only does it allow Florges the option to heal itself in one turn, but also it is not as hard of a momentum sink as Protect generally is. And if you're running protect on a cleric Florges... Yeah, you may as well be running Sylveon.

However, when we're taking into account the sets that more or less define 'mons ranks, the Cleric Set is neither Florges, nor Sylveon's best set, thus they should not be taken into heavy consideration when comparing the two in general. Before Florges acquired Synthesis as a tutor move, it was as low as B rank because we believed as a community that its overall effectiveness as a cleric at that time justified it being in B rank; CM Florges was just not nearly as viable then. But with Synthesis, it rose straight up as high as A+ rank because Calm Mind Florges became that damn good, granted Synthesis did actually improve Florges as a cleric, albeit not a full rank and some. Same goes with Sylveon; although I agree that it's a better cleric overall than Florges is, I cannot realisticly see cleric Sylveon being better than Wallbreaker Sylveon, because its Specs set takes more advantage of Sylveon's powerful offensive capabilities than its Cleric set does of its defensive capabilities. In turn, Calm Mind Florges is why Florges deserves its rank, and Specs Sylveon is why Sylveon deserves its rank.

In general, Sylveon seems like it completely dwarfs Florges in what their capabilities are, because they share the same typing and Sylveon overall has higher hp, defence, and spAtk, taking into account Pixilate, and most of us definitely believe that Sylveon overall > Florges overall. But when you take their roles into account, that's when you realize that they each have their own merits, and that ultimately, they play completely differently on different playstyles.

I hope I cleared that misconception in the best way I could.
 
I know we're both in agreement that Florges should drop, but I feel that your comparisons between the two are fundamentally flawed. Regarding your first point between Specs Sylv and CM Florges, Florges is never meant to be a wallbreaker like Sylveon is, but rather a set up sweeper that generally performs it better than Sylveon does. It has that crucial access to that one click recovery move, and in turn, the luxury to run Aromatherapy so it can literally stay in on 'mons reliant on shit like Toxic, Will o Wisp, or Scald.

Regarding cleric Florges, synthesis again is what separates it from Sylveon. Not only does it allow Florges the option to heal itself in one turn, but also it is not as hard of a momentum sink as Protect generally is. And if you're running protect on a cleric Florges... Yeah, you may as well be running Sylveon.

However, when we're taking into account the sets that more or less define 'mons ranks, the Cleric Set is neither Florges, nor Sylveon's best set, thus they should not be taken into heavy consideration when comparing the two in general. Before Florges acquired Synthesis as a tutor move, it was as low as B rank because we believed as a community that its overall effectiveness as a cleric at that time justified it being in B rank; CM Florges was just not nearly as viable then. But with Synthesis, it rose straight up as high as A+ rank because Calm Mind Florges became that damn good, granted Synthesis did actually improve Florges as a cleric, albeit not a full rank and some. Same goes with Sylveon; although I agree that it's a better cleric overall than Florges is, I cannot realisticly see cleric Sylveon being better than Wallbreaker Sylveon, because its Specs set takes more advantage of Sylveon's powerful offensive capabilities than its Cleric set does of its defensive capabilities. In turn, Calm Mind Florges is why Florges deserves its rank, and Specs Sylveon is why Sylveon deserves its rank.

In general, Sylveon seems like it completely dwarfs Florges in what their capabilities are, because they share the same typing and Sylveon overall has higher hp, defence, and spAtk, taking into account Pixilate, and most of us definitely believe that Sylveon overall > Florges overall. But when you take their roles into account, that's when you realize that they each have their own merits, and that ultimately, they play completely differently on different playstyles.

I hope I cleared that misconception in the best way I could.
Yeah, I understand you but I wasn't really trying to say they function the same way. I was just trying to exemplify how much easier to use Sylveon is compared to Florges. And like you said on your 1st post, thanks to how overwhelmingly popular Sylveon is right now, everyone and their mothers are consequentially better prepared for Florges as well, overall reducing the opportunities it has to set-up and thus hurting its viability, since it isn't particularly strong without it.

To make things clearer: where I'm getting at here is that all things considered, I think Sylveon's immediate firepower is simply preferable and the rankings should reflect that. That's atleast how I feel about it.
 
because this thread has been a bit dead and I'm super bored I nominate a drop in Froslass from B+ to B
just looking at it in the rankings, its role as a suicide spiker in a meta full of defog mence which can switch into most physical attackers on an offensive team and get the defog off isn't that great imo when compared to metagross checking Sylveon while setting up rocks and having offensive pressure.
Among B rank i feel like mons like arcanine, Blissey, and doublade are far better at what they do but froslass would fit better there imo
 
Frostlass is not even remotely comparable to metagross. But sure lets compare them in the one aspect they share, hazards wow.

You "counter" sac spike leads by limiting them to one layer and then playing to suppress rocks, or playing to suppress a wincon. Against a competent HO user there will not be an opening to clear turn one hazards anywhere in the early to mid game without being willing to pay a heavy toll (read: half your team) outside of a ridiculously bad team matchup for your opp, and that's ignoring the obvious taunt/ghost. In short defog and spin are hilariously easy to suppress and give free turns to HO, spikes go up, spikes stay up. By comparison Metagross is... another fucking bulky rocker that spinners/defoggers freely swap into.

While other mon's may be "better" in their roles at a lower rank (Bliss in B makes no sense I'll agree), Frostlass is the ONLY thing that does what it does (ok there's like... last resort Accelgor). This effectively means that Frostlass is as good as spikes are, and oh dear lord spikes are insane in oras UU. Spikes + rocks just flat wins against so many structures of the tiers premier playstyles. The only reason Lass sits in B+ is that frankly, it's only used on spikestack HO and the B+ tier has traditionally housed niche but very very powerful mons.

Edit: Im not entirely certain why the hell you brought sylv up but.... you do realize specs sylv loses to absolutely everything on offense 1v1 or on the switchin with spikes+rocks up right? A well executed hazard stack will turn loud cat into a completely dead teamslot, which is a far far more effective way of dealing with threats than... your swag rocks metagross getting solidly 2 hit koed with one spike on the field.
 
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lol i meant in their respective roles, i feel that mons like metagross, which are more relevant in this meta checking/countering one of the biggest threats while also providing hazard support, is better than a very one-dimensional spike stacker in a tier with defog mence, (arguably???) the best defogger. i wasn't literally comparing them like one to one, or at least didn't mean to. i guess the way u put it it is the best at what it does so i guess it can stay in B+ idc. tbh tho what physical mons really pressure defog salamence tho like besides mamoswine or opposing salamence/haxorus.
-1 252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 188-224 (47.8 - 56.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
this thing grossly lives a stone edge from mega aero like wtf

but ya i was just using sylveon as an example of current meta trends in that its so easily spammable that checks/counters/counterplay is v important
 

Kink

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lol i meant in their respective roles, i feel that mons like metagross, which are more relevant in this meta checking/countering one of the biggest threats while also providing hazard support, is better than a very one-dimensional spike stacker in a tier with defog mence, (arguably???) the best defogger. i wasn't literally comparing them like one to one, or at least didn't mean to. i guess the way u put it it is the best at what it does so i guess it can stay in B+ idc. tbh tho what physical mons really pressure defog salamence tho like besides mamoswine or opposing salamence/haxorus.
-1 252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 188-224 (47.8 - 56.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
this thing grossly lives a stone edge from mega aero like wtf

but ya i was just using sylveon as an example of current meta trends in that its so easily spammable that checks/counters/counterplay is v important
it's a -1 Aero against bulky mence, why do you sound even remotely surprised.
 
New noms

Togetic from C Rank to Unranked: So, how is this even ranked? Togetic is absolutely garbage nowadays, mostly because of the Sylveon and Celebi drops. As a NP Passer (Only thing that turned Togetic viable), it is outclassed by Celebi, Togetic may have more bulk, but it is very frail to very common offensive types. Also, as a Heal Bell user, it is completely garbage since you have both Sylveon and Florges to do this. OK, Togetic has Defog, but it doesn't mean that it is good. As a Defogger, it is weak to the most common SR Setters (Mamoswine, Nidoqueen, Cobalion, and even Krookodile), that's because I don't said that it is passive and is a dead weight if it lose it's Eviolite. Togetic is a setup fodder to things like Chandelure and Suicune too. Use Hustle Physical Togetic if real.

Toxicroak from A- to A Rank, again: 0 discussions about my last nom :[. Anyway, I see how the metagame changed, and it changed in favor to Toxicroak. First of all, Toxicroak is actually the 2nd best "Water Sponge", after Celebi, not to mention that it's speed is decent and it's Attack and Special Attack statistics are very good. It is a pain to defeat if you are playing with an Offense that lack one fast Flying-Type, and most of them can't switch in Toxicroak. Toxicroak has a fun Nasty Plot set too, this makes it a splashable Pokémon. It has very limited switches, a good typing, what give it a natural coverage. Sucker Punch is a nice priority move and coverage move too, it means that Toxicroak can hit most of Psychic- and Ghost-Types without much issues. Bulky Croak is a good Set too, since it can check almost every Fighting-Type, aside of checking Water-Types too.
 
What's keeping Jolteon ranked? When it was first nominated and ranked the reason for it being ranked was it being one of the few Pokemon that can outrun Zam and check it. Now that Zam is gone there's no reason to use it now. It's straight-up outclassed by all the other Electrics in the tier, since it has nothing over them bar 130 base speed to make it a remotely good choice in the metagame. It should definitely be unranked now.

Aromatisse could drop to C+ now. Before Sylveon dropped, it already had pretty big competition for the fat Fairy slot with Florges, but now it just got tossed under the radar since there is literally no reason to use it at all now. Sylveon passes pretty similar Wish sizes (base 95 vs 101) and has numerous other perks like better speed, overall bulk, and power that makes it the more consistent choice for a defensive Fairy on teams. Aroma Veil is cool and all, but is that enough to maintain it's position? I think not.

What does everyone think of Dragalge dropping to B-? It's pretty subpar nowadays as a choice of a Dragon and the biggest reason of ever using it is its access to Toxic Spikes in tandem with its typing. But you can't abuse it to its fullest since its slow as dirt and there are other Toxic Spikes users like Tentacruel and Roserade that do it better and have gotten better, especially Tentacruel. As an offensive Dragon, Hydreigon and Salamence are eons better and offer so much more. Overall, it's got its uses, but it just doesn't measure up to other B ranks like Mega Absol, Diancie, and Doublade.

Finally there are some other things in the lower rankings that are a bit iffy like Zoroark, Noivern, and Vaporeon (Sylveon has Wish + BP) but I think those are more subjective points
 
I agree with your nominations except for Dragalge, for the moment. It's still the hardest hitting special Dragon in the tier, with STAB to KO every Fairy in the tier, and I can see it keeping its place if Salamence gets the boot. I say we put a hold on Dragalge until the Salamence suspect test is over.
 

dingbat

snek
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
One main issue rn for dragalge is that there is much more offensive pressure against it now than it has before, with Dragons, krook/sylv shenanigans, (mega) Swamperts, and Offensive Celebi to an extent all really dominant threats right now, and as a result, it often gets overwhelmed quickly against these more offensive teams. But at the same time, it still does a fantastic job of applying the said offensive pressure back against much of this meta; it fares much better against more passive teams, and it still has a easier time dropping Dracos than Dreigon/Mence do, because as Lord of Bays mentioned, its second STAB deters Fairies from switching in more than Steel-type coverage on the other two do. Not so sure about B- atm

On that note, I'd like to nom Mega Houndoom to B rank. It struggles pretty badly against a great majority of this meta right now, and lately, its opportunities to switch in and potentially set up in most battles have been more limited now than it has been before, moreso than the other B+ ranks.

Aromatisse should drop to C rank imho; I think even the C+ mons are better than it right now. I agree that its niche of being a taunt/encore-proof cleric has definitely shrunk a ton now that Sylveon has settled very well in its spot in UU, and that is clearly showing with its extreme lack of presence on Balance and Stall teams.

Vaporeon should stay in D rank, because it is still a UU 'mon, and this is a UU viability ranking thread.

I agree that Togetic and Jolteon should both be unranked; both are pretty damn useless in this meta atm
 

LRXC

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Yes I totally agree dingbat. Aromatisse is nowhere near that B- rank. I am still surprised its higher ranked than Honchkrow, but I am not getting into that. I just really think it needs to drop to C or at least C+, because no one uses it. Another thing to, I do agree that Jolteon is borderline useless and should be unranked, but Togetic should still stay ranked, at least in C-. Its niche is a fairy type that can remove hazards, and it is actually very bulky and can check numerous threats. Another thing I like about it is that it really does provide good utility, in defog as well as thunder wave or heal bell. Yes it may be a fairy type that doesnt count as a dark switchin (knock off), but I honestly still think it deserves to be ranked.
 
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