ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread V6

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Even though the suspect test didn't really influence the tier directly, both UU majors and Smogon Grand Slam have been pivotal to the metagame's development, so here are some changes and nominations for y'all!

Changes:

Raises:

  • Entei up from A+ to S
I'd love to give you all a detailed explanation regarding this change, but I feel like nothing I come up with will ever come close to GrilledClawitzer's post on the matter, so yeah, give it a read even if Entei moving up doesn't surprise you at all!
  • Tornadus up from B+ to A-
There were a lot of good posts regarding this change as well, but to sum it up, it seems like people have finally stopped sleeping on Tornadus, a Pokemon with massive offensive presence and versatility. Its Life Orb sets tear through the standard Celebi + Krookodile bulky offensive teams with the appropriate coverage moves, Bulk Up sets destroy slower teams all day (and even offense as well if it's a Bulk Up + RestTalk variant and gets lucky with Sleep Talk rolls) and it can also run Agility or Tailwind to catch frailer teams that run Mega Aerodactyl or other speedy Pokemon as their Tornadus check off-guard. Hurricane misses can be a big pain in the ass, but they're not enough to keep this Pokemon from moving up in the rankings.
  • Mega Abomasnow up from B to B+
An unexpected change, considering that there was no discussion on it in the thread beforehand. However, Abomasnow is a Pokemon that many of the top players have been using lately due to its ability to use cleric Sylveon as set up bait, thanks to its Soundproof ability while in regular form, so it's moving up based on that mostly. Aside from the perk, it also happens to fare extremely well against cookie cutter builds in general, considering that Celebi, Krookodile, Mega Aerodactyl, Tentacruel (or any other Bulky Water-type) and Sylveon can't really tank Abomasnow's boosted hits at all, so once the opponent's Steel-type of choice has been weakened enough the game is pretty much over. Naturally, it also comes with its fair amount of weaknesses, such as low speed, inability to handle Fire-type Pokemon and the cost opportunity from being a mega evolution, but access to priority Ice Shard (which allows it to mitigate the first weakness to an extent) and overall positive match up against the current metagame outweigh the cons enough for it to warrant a promotion.

Drops:
  • Mega Sharpedo down from A to A-
I still feel like a lot of people in the thread underrate this Pokemon's potential. For example, Sharpedo isn't entirely limited to the role of a late game sweeper, since it can use its access to Destiny Bond to pave the way for something else (such as Haxorus or Lucario) to clean up, but I'm still going to move it down based on what most people in the thread have been saying for the last 50 pages across all viability ranking threads.
  • Whimsicott down from A- to B+
Most of what's been said about Gardevoir also applies to this Pokemon, honestly. It's still useful to an extent and a nice option for people who need a Grass-type and a Fairy-type Pokemon in a single team slot (otherwise, Sylveon and Celebi are almost always better), but the existence of the aforementioned two Pokemon really compromises its viability. Besides that, the fact that most people are now running Hydreigon sets that can OHKO Whimsicott with ease instead of Choice Scarf sets or even Taunt + Roost with Dual STAB moves also has a very negative impact on its niche.

Miscellaneous:

A Rank has been reordered to reflect the current metagame better.

Nominations:
  • Krookodile up to S
  • Forretress up to A-
  • Gligar up to B+
  • Dugtrio up to B
  • Mega Banette being added to the rankings (C- or C)
Even though the first nomination seems a little weird when taking into account the fact that Hydreigon didn't get banned, it's just impossible to deny that Krookodile has been one of the metagame's most influent Pokemon for a long time now, and it could deserve a bump up in the rankings. I'll let the community decide though, since my ability to build solid arguments is slightly compromised at 3AM. Forretress and Gligar are both Pokemon that see usage on balance and bulky offensive teams due to their access to Rapid Spin and ability to soft check a respectable amount of the metagame's most common threats respectively. Personally, I disagree on moving either of them up, but some people brought up pretty decent arguments regarding these two Pokemon, so I'm making the nominations anyway. Dugtrio was moved up to B- recently, but trapping is an inherently unhealthy mechanic and more people have started exploiting this Pokemon's ability to automatically remove threatening Pokemon from the game, so there's that. It also helps a lot that Dugtrio's set can be customized depending on what its teammates would like to see removed from the match (Focus Sash + Reversal destroys opposing Krookodile and Kyurem, while Choice Band gets rid of Tentacruel, Entei, Nidoqueen and other threatening Pokemon). As for Mega Banette, I'll let dodmen write something about it, but it's currently 4-0 (if my memory serves me right) in UU majors somehow, so keep that in mind before laughing it off!

This should be all for now. Please tell me if you spot any mistake in the updated OP. Happy posting guys!
 
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LeoLancaster

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to S: Agree. Krookodile has it's fair share of flaws; it's predictable, having little variation in sets, with the main difference usually being Stealth Rock vs Choice Band sets, which have the same answers for the most part; it's Speed, while good, doesn't make it too difficult to revenge kill; it's often reliant on being Choice-locked to do damage, which can leave it in a bad position if it predicts poorly. However, it's still difficult to outright prevent Krook from accomplishing something important in a match. STAB Knock Off allows it to wear down it's own checks for something else to clean up later, and while the same can be said of Crawdaunt and Mega Absol, both get fewer opportunities to come in, and the latter lacks a strong secondary STAB to use on its defensive checks after they have been hit with Knock Off. Further, Pursuit means that even if the opponent has enough defensive countermeasures to Krook itself, it could still open up a wincon by trapping the main answer to its teammate. For the most part, the only reliable ways to keep Krookodile from accomplishing something important is to run Chesnaught + no Pursuit targets, or enough offensive pressure to keep Krookodile from getting more than a few opportunities to come in. That's not necessarily the most difficult thing in the world but it's not exactly easy either. It even has decent defensive utility to boot! Overall I think the influence Krook has on the meta combined with the difficulty in outright stopping it is enough to make it S rank, but I can see why it's arguably fine in the top of A+ too.
 
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Infernape from A- to A rank - To me, I felt like Infernape should have moved up a while ago but, I wasn't sure so, I played some games with it and still felt the same way. After some more time I realized that it definitely needs to move up after trying out so many of its sets and seeing so many of its sets work in action. Infernape is like Cresselia in the fact that it can run what it wants to help your team out. I get that Infernape is the opposite of Cresselia in a lot of ways but, at the same time I feel like Infernape should be in the same rank as Cress due to how well it can help a team out. We all know the sets of infernape and we all know it's huge movepool, which is why it can go special or physical. But, what's so great about that is that this makes the other player has to guess a lot of the times as to what set its running and even if they guess right and switch, who knows, Infernape could be running u-turn and not give a shit. To me, Infernape is like perfect for HO since it has something for every playstyle - Scarf for faster teams, nasty plot or sd for stall, and all-out-attacker for balanced. Not to mention, you can choose what you want it take out for the team. So, thats why I think Infernape should be in A rank with Cresselia and no higher, its the fact that its a great team player on the offensive side.

I agree with Lucario moving up to A- rank because of how strong it is. Not to mention, Lucario doesn't care about scald that much if it's special which is still an alright set, though, physical sets are its best sets. And honestly, to add on what freeroamer said about luke being a beast without a boost, is how it can be unpredictable in being physical or special; it's gotten me a few times trying to guess which one lol.

Also, does the S rank seem a bit too crowded to anyone else?
What does this mean? Outside of a wildly incorrect interpretation, the S-Rank with Krookodile is fine. Don't forget that viability is a measure of how viable a Pokemon is in the metagame. It's not necessarily a measure of how good that Pokemon is. Krookodile has flaws, but there's effectively no drawback to its CB set. The same holds for Entei. A "crowded" S-Rank means that there's a selection of super-viable Pokemon in Underused. On that note, Krookodile to S-Rank is long overdue. Make it happen.
Bit harsh, could of just let it at "What does this mean?"; but, I know what you mean since I read your previous post bout how you have poor wording sometimes. Now, the reason why I brought this up is because of how people sometimes complain about a higher rank getting too bloated. And in all honesty, it makes sense. Reading other posts in this thread and other threads I have found that people think hydreigon should have been banned for a very good reason, people want a celebi suspect for very good reasons, entei has been revoked for S rank before for solid reasoning by the council, and mega-aero, as well as, suicune have both been going back and forth between s and a+ ranks for awhile (though mega aero has been in s rank for a good amount of time now so even if sun and moon came out in january instead of november I dont think people would want it to move back down since it seems solid there).
In other rankings I've seen councils make good reasonings on why higher up ranks shouldn't have too many pokemon in them, and I'm just wanting other people's opinions on this. By the way, I dont care if entei and krook are in s rank; they are both excellent at their jobs.
By the way, I am sorry for a post like this. Just answering Mazz's question which does pertain to the vr.
 
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I'm a little ambivalent to Krook moving up or down, but I'm wondering why Suicune made it back up to S. Hydreigon still pressures the shit out of it, Celebi's drop (I thought) took it out of S entirely. Why did it rise back up?
 
Also, does the S rank seem a bit too crowded to anyone else?
What does this mean? Outside of a wildly incorrect interpretation, the S-Rank with Krookodile is fine. Don't forget that viability is a measure of how viable a Pokemon is in the metagame. It's not necessarily a measure of how good that Pokemon is. Krookodile has flaws, but there's effectively no drawback to its CB set. The same holds for Entei. A "crowded" S-Rank means that there's a selection of super-viable Pokemon in Underused. On that note, Krookodile to S-Rank is long overdue. Make it happen.

I disagree with the Forretress nomination. In the case with Forretress, it really only fits on bulkier archetypes; these types of teams are still punished by more offensive builds by the presence of a select few Pokemon, all of which punish the hell out of Forretress (read: Krookodile, Entei, Hydreigon, NP Celebi). On these teams, the only distinct advantages I see in using Forretress over similar Pokemon or combinations of them are Volt Switch and role compression. I don't see either of these as a reason to bump Forretress from B+ to A-; the combination of Tentacruel and Bronzong might consume an extra teamslot but you don't lose anything by running them over Forretress. Instead you've gained checks to Nidoqueen\king, Entei, and other annoyances to bulkier teams. Volt Switch is neat to have if you run Forretress on a VoltTurn team but it still hits a wall against things like Taunt Krookodile, and Volt Switch alone cannot be enough to push it into A-.

I don't have a substantial claim on whether Gligar should or shouldn't raise, but I do question the viability of defensive Pokemon that rely on Eviolite as their main source of bulk in a tier where Knock Off coverage is very common. Defog has good utility though, and the options we have for hazard removal are effectively non-existent. Porygon2 I think is a good comparable in B: they autolose to different things but perform similar roles. I think the question here is if Defog and its ability to counter CB Krookodile are enough to make it a B+ option.

Trapping is broken, so move Dugtrio up.

Mega Banette should not be ranked: Sableye does essentially the same job (sans a very workable Attack stat) but doesn't consume a Mega slot. I died on the hill that was one of the XY Viability Ranking threads to keep it ranked there, and the changes the metagame saw with the release of ORAS do not justify its ranking this late in the metagame. If it has any use, it's a bona-fide Celebi revenge-killer, and we already have like eight of those.

Are we killing the Escavalier nomination that Panther-T made? Not that I support the nomination or anything, I just think a discussion around where it sits is one worth having right now.
 

pdt

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dugtrio to B: agree

Dugtrio is one of the Pokemon that has a niche in every tier because of its unique ability, Arena Trap, which allows it to revenge kill and trap many Pokemon in the UU tier. Although it's weak and needs support in order to function, it can easily pick off threats with Earthquake, Sucker Punch, and Stone Edge which gives it a useful niche in the tier.
- Mega Ampharos - needs some chip but can come in on an Electric move
- Arcanine - unfortunately doesn't KO from full, but can live an ESpeed as long as Arcanine is defensive and can KO after chip damage, which is easy to do seeing that Arcanine is weak to Stealth Rocks.
- Cobalion - requires a decent bit of chip damage and potentially removing a Shuca Berry, but can still trap if you want to predict Stealth Rocks or Volt Switch
- Darmanitan - unfortunately Darm's most used set is Scarf, but it can trap any other set and pick it off.
- Empoleon - Same with Cobalion it requires some chip, but it doesn't have reliable recovery so its pretty easy to do. Also have to remove potential Shuca Berry.
- Entei - as long as it isn't locked into ESpeed it can trap and remove this huge threat, which is a great niche if you're looking to revenge Entei.
- Heliolisk - Can come in on an Electric move and trap and KO, or can come in an RK. Just scout for garbage Scarf variants.
- Infernape - Can live priority attacks and KO, again, scout for Scarf variants.
- Lucario - This one's a bit shakier because of the strong priority Lucario has, but it is possible if you're running a Sash variant.
- Metagross - Scout for Bullet Punch, and needs a bit of chip damage but can still Revenge Metagross pretty reliably.
- Nidoking / Nidoqueen - As long as Nidoqueen isn't defensive, it can trap and kill both of these, which is a huge asset as most teams are weak to these.
- Tentacruel - This is a huge one, trapping and removing a spinner can easily swing the match in your favor by controlling the hazard game.
- Toxicroak - Watch out for Sucker, but can reliably trap and remove this one.
BL2
- Mega Houndoom - Can easily trap and kill, just watch out if you're weakened for Sucker Punch.
- Tyrantrum, can remove pretty easily after some chip damage, but can't outspeed it boosted or Scarfed.
RU not going to provide a description as these are less relevant but still gonna list
- Mega Camerupt
- Delphox - lol
- Diancie
- Drapion - killin should run dug on every team
- Emboar
- Magneton
- Qwilfish
- Registeel
- Typhlosion - (pdt stop)


The point is that Dugtrio can trap and kill a huge portion of the metagame, and has Priority to pick off faster sets, and also has a variety of different sets to use such as Choice Band, Life Orb, and Focus Sash to pick and remove key Pokemon to open the way for other team members. Sylveon is a notable partner for this as it can trap and remove Steels, Fires, and Poisons which gives it a notable niche in this metagame. Trapping is a broken mechanic and allows Dugtrio inevitably pick off team members as long as it can come in safely. It has a fantastic Speed tier that lets it outspeed a majority of the metagame and give more offensive teams hell. That said, it needs chip damage and safe switch-ins to be effective, and is very vulnerable to priority with its garbage bulk. That said, it has a very good niche in this tier and deserves to be in the B Rank.

Edit: Thanks to Mr. Highways for pointing out that Ghosts can't be trapped, I forgot!
 
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Hilomilo

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As happy as I was to see some of the rises and drops occur, I hate to have to disagree with all but one of the nominations. Krookodile is an amazing pokemon, but really shouldn't move up to S right now. It's banded set is great, but every other offensive mon in S right now has something that allows them to separate themselves from Krook significantly and seems to have a bit more utility to bring to the table as well. Hydreigon generally does better as a dark type due to its ability to pressure cores with its dual stabs while using its fantastic coverage (iron tail, super power, fire blast) to hit pretty much the whole tier super effectively. Entei and Celebi can actually shrug off burns and bring other things to the table, such as (in Entei's case) that amazing 50% burn chance alongside lots of physical prowess, and (in Celebi's case) the ability to pull off SD and NP sets really well and/or provide teams with rocks and twave/baton pass support. Mega Aerodactyl's speed, attack, and ability speak for themselves (and well, have for a long time now), and while Krookodile is certainly one of the best offensive pokemon in the tier, it just seems as though it'd be tough to compare with the above mentioned threats.
Forretress should stay B+ for the time being, since there are other bulky steel types that I feel should rise before it does. Escavalier and Metagross are also able to tank Sylveon's hyper voice, but Metagross isn't hit as hard by HP Fire and does a better job as a rocker due to its offensive presence, while Escavalier's AV and Swords Dance sets are just, well, really good against a lot of the tier's offensive cores. Forry is by no means bad, as it still has nearly every entry hazard and sturdy at its disposal, though better cases can be made for other steel types. Gligar I also disagree with, since its really reliant on eviolite, which can be problematic considering the prevalence of knock off in the meta, and since nothing's really helped it to improve since the mence ban, which helped every defogger. Dugtrio deserves to rise, since arena trap is just ridiculously useful for pretty much any play style, though I disagree with Mega Bannette being ranked, since Sableye does most of what it does bar destiny bond and shadow sneak, but without a mega stone (shadow sneak and priority destiny bond are great and all, but really niche when you could be giving your mega stones to things like Sceptile, Swampert, etc. and just put Sableye on your team.)

As for some of the things that I think could/should happen in the VR, Metagross and Escavalier should both move up. Both of these pokemon are able to totally eat a hyper voice from Sylveon, which is becoming more and more of a requirement on teams, and in response, throw iron head or meteor mash at it and save your team the burden of being 6-0'd by hyper voice. Escav's AV and SD sets as mentioned before are just insanely good right now, as they pressure a lot of things aside from just Sylveon like Mega Aerodactyl and Celebi, and Metagross is just such a great offensive rocker right now in that it doesn't fear intimidate from Krook or Gyarados, can plow through defensive and offensive mons alike, and tank hits when it needs to (bar stuff from Hydra or Chandy). Druddigon should go unranked, since I can't think of a good enough niche this thing has that compensates for its god awful bulk and speed and poor matchups all around the meta. Lucario could also rise. I've been playing around with it a little recently (despite my little brother getting me from 1500 to 1350 on ladder ;-;) and it can put in a TON of work when it needs to and almost always help its team out. Once it sets up, you better hope you have something that resists its priority, and I think that while average speed and poor bulk could keep Luke in B+, the sheer fact that it's so unprepared for so that it can plow through certain teams keeps me on the fence.

Edit: Heracross could also drop, since the competition it's been facing since the Conk drop is really starting to hinder it, though you could still make a case for the thing in A-.
 
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Now that I've regained a state of composure, I'll give my thoughts on some of the recent nominations in addition to the recent shifts.

Forretress to A-: Strongly Disagree
The issue with Forretress is that on paper it offers insane role compression. For starters, it in theory offers hazard control at a point in the metagame where demand is at its peak. It also in theory provides a team with a useful specially defensive and defensive pivot which can check Pokemon such as Sylveon, Celebi, Florges (lol), Mega Sceptile, Mega Aerodactyl, Haxorus, Mega Beedrill and Crobat (of course its ability to check these Pokemon depend on its spread -- specially or physically defensive). To top it off, it provides the ability to pivot out of bad matchups and assist Pokemon that appreciate a slow volt switch/u-turn. Therefore, on paper it appears that Forretress provides incredible role compression for one team slot.

However, in practice, Forretress struggles to do all this due to how easily it allows itself to get pressured. What I mean by this is that relying on Forretress to check the aforementioned threats, setup hazards and spin all in one game is unrealistic due to the lack of recovery Forretress is plagued with. This problem is exacerbated by running a specially defensive spread, as a lot of builds force Forretress to check Pokemon like specs Sylveon and Celebi (among others, but these are the two major ones that come to mind). Having your Sylveon 'check,' hazard setter, and hazard remover force itself to take 40% from specs hyper voice (not to mention how easily it is to click HP Fire) means that in most matchups, Forretress really cannot do perform all the roles it is expected to and on paper can accomplish for a team. The overarching point is that Forretress may look like a solid pick on paper, but in practice, it finds itself unable to actually fulfil all the roles it on paper can accomplish. For that reason, it is not due to rise.

Dugtrio to B: Agree



I have not used this Pokemon much, so this is mostly anecdotal reasoning. However, PinkDragonTamer's post and supporting calculations sum up most of what I have to say about this Pokemon, and also reflect my opinion on it. However, none of this information is new; as mentioned, people are only now starting to realize the team support this Pokemon provides, and are starting to recognize its potential as a result. To not make this opinion baseless, I want to look into how easily it is to currently support Dugtrio in the current metagame and how feasible it is to incorporate its support i na team.

A team utilizing Dugtrio needs volt-turn (slow ideally) to actually get Dugtrio in safely against intended targets. Of course double switching does this as well, but it forces you to predict, and Dugtrio is not a Pokemon that you can mispredict with due to its frailty. This honestly is not that difficult to incorporate into a team, as there are many excellent momentum grabbers in the tier that can get it in safely. Chiefly, Mega Beedrill and Dugtrio serves as an excellent offensive core and is not too difficult to build around (of course most of you know this, but I wanted to use Mega Beedrill because I feel that it is the most obvious example). Basically, it is not too difficult in actually supporting Dugtrio for it to do its job, and due to this in addition to the utility it provides, it should rise.

----

I'll update this as I form my opinion over the next little while. I'd also like to take this time to apologize for my passive aggressive post about my Escavalier nomination. This apology also extends to the VR team who had to deal with my passive aggressive questions. I did not mean to undermine anyone and their contributions. It was inappropriate and only really served to derail a nice discussion. I've always been hasty and impulsive as a person; it is something I need to work on. I look forward to discussing things in a more civil manner in the future. I'm still hoping that Escavalier is brought up as I want to here other's opinions on it, though.
 
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I like how Pearl completely missed the Lucario nomination, I didn't put any rank in the post because actually viewing what is in the A-/A ranks gives me eye cancer. (MBee drop when). But yeah get Luke out of B/B+. I'm pretty certain that it's universally better than crawdaunt and the shit squad.

What does this mean? Outside of a wildly incorrect interpretation, the S-Rank with Krookodile is fine. Don't forget that viability is a measure of how viable a Pokemon is in the metagame. It's not necessarily a measure of how good that Pokemon is. Krookodile has flaws, but there's effectively no drawback to its CB set. The same holds for Entei. A "crowded" S-Rank means that there's a selection of super-viable Pokemon in Underused. On that note, Krookodile to S-Rank is long overdue. Make it happen.\
No, this is the case in other tier's where "how viable/how usable" a pokemon is gets at least half ass determined by a set criteria of risk/reward, and in any of those systems krook surrenders enough free turns to never ever touch A+ never mind S. (Read: I do not think krook is bad, it is very good, it is also a textbook A mon by classic standards)

We rank on raw waifu appeal and overblown hype here, and that's the only reasonable explanation for A+ krook never mind S. That said S rank krook is logically consistent for this thread.
 
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LeoLancaster

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to A-: Disagree. Panther-T hit the nail on the head concerning how easily Forry is pressured just by the things it's supposed to check at times. Beyond that, it's also really easy to take advantage of. Hydreigon, Entei, Suicune, Krookodile, Swampert, Nidoqueen, Conkeldurr, and others can easily use Forry as fodder for setup or to just fire off powerful attacks. Edit: these are also some of the most common and dangerous Pokémon in the tier. Yes, it could use Volt Switch to escape these poor matchups (edit 2: not against the ground types, ofc) but if it's doing that it's not setting or clearing hazards, which means it's not fulfilling its primary role. Exacerbated by this is how it can never check everything it wants to; without Gyro Ball it can't do enough to Mega Aerodactyl or Mega Sceptile, without Heavy Slam it's the same vs Sylveon. Without Pin Missile or Bug Bite it can't check NP Celebi, without Volt Switch it's even more fodder than it was before. Forry has too many flaws to be in the A ranks.
 
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No, this is the case in other tier's where "how viable/how usable" a pokemon is gets at least half ass determined by a set criteria of risk/reward, and in any of those systems krook surrenders enough free turns to never ever touch A+ never mind S. (Read: I do not think krook is bad, it is very good, it is also a textbook A mon by classic standards)

We rank on raw waifu appeal and overblown hype here, and that's the only reasonable explanation for A+ krook never mind S. That said S rank krook is logically consistent for this thread.
I find your response to Krookodile's placement highly inappropriate, even borderline unintelligent. It's insulting to Pearl and the extensive list of VR Council members that maintain this resource. That council is without a doubt a collection of the best players that main in this metagame, and a ton of the arguments you'll read in this thread stem from ideas they've given the community. In order to help you understand Krookodile's ranking in this thread, let's consider Krookodile's ranking in either S-Rank or A+-Rank using the original definitions defined by FlareBlitz from the first ever VR in BWUU:

FlareBlitz's Guidelines said:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
Also consider that these definitions have been largely unchanged in the two full generations they've been used. You're lying to yourself if you don't think the ORAS UU VR council uses definitions vastly different to these - every metagame effectively follows these standards.

Now ask yourself: what levels of support does Krookodile require in order to be successful? What flaws does Krookodile have? If your concern is that locking yourself into Pursuit or the 4th-slot coverage move is a non-ideal scenario, or Krookodile being just a hair too slow to keep pace with specific threats, or it's typing, weigh those flaws against the utility that Knock Off provides to a team. What about Intimidate? Access to Taunt and Stealth Rock? Krookodile is very much at least worth the discussion of being a potential S-Rank Pokemon. There's only a few circumstances where Krookodile gives up free turns, and if anything are a consequence of it holding a Choice Band. Very few things are comfortable coming in on either a Choice Banded Knock Off or Earthquake, and even fewer things can do it twice. Knock Off and Pursuit can single-handedly dismantle teams and add a level of mind-games that the opposition needs to outplay in order to keep something from fainting. STAB Earthquake is one of the most desirable moves in the game. There is absolutely little to no downside to using Krookodile. If a player only stands to benefit from using Krookodile, why be so adamant about it being a "textbook A-Rank mon"?

A case for Krookodile remaining in A+ can be made - it's very much on the fence between the two rankings - but to insinuate that Krookodile isn't among the top Pokemon in terms of viability is silly.
 
Considering Krook loses around 100% of the time to the two best Pokemon in the tier, after a night's consideration, I would refrain from moving Krook up to S. Celebi may not switch in safely every time, but it does force Krook out and you can bring it in on a predicted anything-but-Knock Off. Hydreigon is only 2HKO'd by CB Stone Edge (it takes a maximum of 85.3% from two max roll Knock Offs + Rocks, and that's when Hasty), and I invite you to lock yourself into that in a tier where Bulk Up Conk is currently giving the metagame the business.

Krook offers excellent role compression, but its roles all tend to be similar enough that you have some idea of what it's going to do from Team Preview, and it lacks Sacred Firethe knock-out factor that puts similarly "one-dimensional" Pokemon like Entei in S.
 
I disagree with Krookodile rising to S; as much I love to use it and think it's an amazing wallbreaker, it doesn't quite meet the standards I have in mind for S rank. For one, while its Speed isn't bad, you have to acknowledge that it's a significant point against it. Furthermore, there are a lot of metagame trends that hurt it right now: examples are fast Tentacruel and Shuca Empoleon, both of which specifically target Krookodile (as well as other threats, but Krook's the main one). Not to mention that while its STAB combo is absolutely fantastic and possibly the best in the tier, locking into either move gives an opportunity for things that are extremely dangerous when given a turn: Mega Swampert, Gyarados, Conkeldurr, as well as just things like Hydreigon, Mega Beedrill, and Kyurem which get a free hit once they're in on Krook.

I just feel that we're tending to get "very good Pokemon" confused with S rank, which at its core means "shapes the metagame around it", or the very best of the best. This is undoubtedly true for Hydreigon, Celebi, and Suicune, the former two of which balance and offensive teams alike have to dance around due to their power and versatility, and the latter of which will legitimately just win if the opposing team doesn't have a specific countermeasure against it (and can can even get around certain "countermeasures" such as CB Haxorus/Metagross with a timely Scald burn). Aerodactyl is arguably influential to a lesser extent, but has an unparalleled combination of offensive and defensive utility. I don't think you can say that Krookodile influences the metagame to the same degree as these four (I also disagreed with Entei's rise, though I know UU friends like to circlejerk about how RETARDED and BUSTED it is, and responding to GC's post is futile at this point).

Again, obviously Krook and Entei are among the best Pokemon in the tier, but I think they are/were perfect at the top of A+, which reflected their power and stellar performance at their respective jobs, while also reflecting that they don't literally shape the metagame around them (to the same effect that Celebi does), have terribly few if any reliable checks, and aren't simply THE defining Pokemon of the current UU metagame (to the extent that the other S ranks are).

As for Mega Banette, I'll let dodmen write something about it, but it's currently 4-0 (if my memory serves me right) in UU majors somehow, so keep that in mind before laughing it off!
Shoutouts Stallion for helping bring the UU Majors record of this stellar Pokemon to 5-0. If we're gonna rank it it should be C at the VERY most for obvious reasons (taking up your mega, being slow as shit, Shadow Claw being a pathetic excuse for a STAB move). Once it's in though, Prankster Destiny Bond is its real niche for being able to essentially force a kill vs offense, priority Shadow Sneak isn't bad for picking off Metagross and Celebi and stuff, and at best a trade vs Hydreigon or something is useful to support its other teammates. Again, C at the most, you have to try really really hard to make this work both as a member of your team and in the actual battle.
 
I find your response to Krookodile's placement highly inappropriate, even borderline unintelligent. It's insulting to Pearl and the extensive list of VR Council members that maintain this resource. That council is without a doubt a collection of the best players that main in this metagame, and a ton of the arguments you'll read in this thread stem from ideas they've given the community. In order to help you understand Krookodile's ranking in this thread, let's consider Krookodile's ranking in either S-Rank or A+-Rank using the original definitions defined by FlareBlitz from the first ever VR in BWUU:



Also consider that these definitions have been largely unchanged in the two full generations they've been used. You're lying to yourself if you don't think the ORAS UU VR council uses definitions vastly different to these - every metagame effectively follows these standards.

Now ask yourself: what levels of support does Krookodile require in order to be successful? What flaws does Krookodile have? If your concern is that locking yourself into Pursuit or the 4th-slot coverage move is a non-ideal scenario, or Krookodile being just a hair too slow to keep pace with specific threats, or it's typing, weigh those flaws against the utility that Knock Off provides to a team. What about Intimidate? Access to Taunt and Stealth Rock? Krookodile is very much at least worth the discussion of being a potential S-Rank Pokemon. There's only a few circumstances where Krookodile gives up free turns, and if anything are a consequence of it holding a Choice Band. Very few things are comfortable coming in on either a Choice Banded Knock Off or Earthquake, and even fewer things can do it twice. Knock Off and Pursuit can single-handedly dismantle teams and add a level of mind-games that the opposition needs to outplay in order to keep something from fainting. STAB Earthquake is one of the most desirable moves in the game. There is absolutely little to no downside to using Krookodile. If a player only stands to benefit from using Krookodile, why be so adamant about it being a "textbook A-Rank mon"?

A case for Krookodile remaining in A+ can be made - it's very much on the fence between the two rankings - but to insinuate that Krookodile isn't among the top Pokemon in terms of viability is silly.
It's supposed to be insulting, though not to Pearl or the current council specifically. Rather I am openly mocking the special snowflake who decided that "nah we don't need objectivity" and have been since they decided to go that route. Even the mild objectivity of the VR standard is sufficient to keep the ridiculous hype trains that we see here on a change-to-change basis in check and that is a damn fine thing. It also gives a framework for overall higher quality conversation in this thread. (Example: I genuinely enjoyed the reply even if I agree with none of it)

As for why Krook is textbook A vs A+ imo (this is actually my opinion as subranks are subjective as fuck), Krook surrenders, a really significant number of free turns, often vs the top threats of UU, but it's overall utility will generally balance that out and it can find its way into a large number of teams on that support. A+ to me fills the same niche but surrenders turns to... less absurdly hellmurderous shit. (Example: Hydriegon)

Hilomilo: Touche.
 
I fully support Krookodile going to S rank. I have been thinking it was worthy for the past couple months or so, as I use to think A+ was a really fair place for it. It has similar attributes as Mega Aerodactyl in terms of it's offensive and defensive capabilities, as well as the ability to support many other offensive pokemon to eliminate their counters. The set that is, in my opinion S rank worthy, and what I will be referring to the most, is the Choice Band set, although Stealth Rock variants have their use as well.

Although some users love to hate this as reasoning, a very large selling point for Krookodile as an S rank is it's splashability(for those who are unfamiliar with the term, it means how easy a pokemon can fit on a team, mainly due to low cost in using the mon). Krookodile is probably in the top 3 of easiest mons to throw on a team, next to Sylveon and Celebi, and that probably explains why that core of 3 pokemon has been running rampant recently. Although Entei just moved up to S rank, it is a perfect example of a Choice Banded pokemon that has considerably low splashability. Krookodile, as well as the other S rank pokemon not including Entei, are useable on any playstyle, and that is unparalleled besides Sylveon.

The ability to support teammates as good as Krookodile does is insane. Most of this has to do with Pursuit. Pursuit makes Krookodile fundamentally broken because there is no way to efficiently deal with Krookodile if it is in on a free turn. If it is Krookodile vs offense or balance, Krookodile can freely click Knock Off and force an incoming switch to be severely dented or die, or the pokemon on the field just dies. If Krookodile is in vs a bulkier team or stall, one might think its easier cuz 'haha! I have chesnaught/whatever switches into Krook's stabs!', but that can sometimes benefit the Krookodile user. The reasoning behind that is that if someone is using Chesnaught semi stall and Krookodile is in on a free turn, the odds of the Chesnaught user switching into Chesnaught is close to 100%. This means clicking Pursuit is far less risky as the cost of staying in predicting the Pursuit is almost never worth it. Therefore the Krookodile user is automatically at an advantage, assuming the user is competent. Although one could argue that Pursuit is not a reason to make something S rank, as other pokemon learn that move, it benefits Krookodile so much more due to its defensive utility and speed, similarity to Aerodactyl.

I don't think the reasoning of something "taking advantage" of Krookodile being locked into a move is fair while such pokemon comes in after a sack, because that applies to pretty much any pokemon bar Celebi maybe. Something like Gyara or Mega Swampert setting up on a choice locked EQ/Knock Off, while the Krook user has no Gyara/Swampert answer is too complex of a scenario in my opinion, and also could apply to mostly any other pokemon.
 
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Gligar up to B+ like probs not
I personally think gligar is quite good at what it does, so tbh its rise depends solely on how good its niche is, being:
-defensive tank
-solid krook switchin
-solid Mega Aero switch
-solid bee switch, but usually gets u-turned on so meh
-decent cobalion check/counter, loses to hax tho
-amazing hera switchin
etc with the mons it checks/counters
-amazing defensive pivot (ALWAYS RUN UTURN YOU SHOULD NEVER NOT)
-can defog
-can rocks
it also has a few lesser options, like running spdef but just like why, and BP-ing stats but thats whatever

with mence gone, mons that used to run ice coverage i feel like aren't running it as much (lucario, conk maybe idk), so its gotten a bit better in that regard. slowish U turn is so good on gligar so you can bring in mons for free. hazard control is still pretty important, which gligar can do decently at, although it does lose to most setters of hazards.

TLDR: gligar has pretty good role compression with def tank and hazards and pivoting

in the end tho, looking at all the mons in B+ and B, i feel like gligar belongs in B rather than B+, just based on the threat levels B+ mons have that gligar doesn't really have.

edit: HAHAHA PEARL JUST
 
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Pearl

Romance は風のまま
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis the 7th Grand Slam Winneris a Past SPL Champion
I appreciate that some completely legit concerns have been brought up in this discussion, and as this thread's host, I'm trying my best to make sure everything gets dealt with properly, so here's a post to clear some stuff up. If this post offends you in any way or form, then it was probably intended and I feel no shame in doing it. That shouldn't happen unless your forum name starts with jjosh though, so don't worry too much.

RE: "Ignored nominations"

Nothing that gets posted in this thread is ignored, so this is not even a real concern. Me and the rest of the people involved in the process of making sure the viability rankings stay up to date go through every single nomination that gets made by the users, and if your nomination didn't go through then it either had no business happening at the time it was posted or the team just wasn't up to date enough. The latter typically happens whenever we're trying to catch up to Omfuga's ability to constantly shape the metagame with his 9th dimension innovation abilities, so I like to think that we're pretty up to date with trends, usage stats and all that kind of stuff.

If you disagree with us and feel like we should've listened to your nomination, then you have the right to push for it one more time, but don't expect it to work out unless a popular trend bumps the Pokemon's viability up. Alternatively, you can act like a 3 year old kid and throw a tantrum because your favorite Pokemon isn't in S rank, but the only thing that accomplishes is turning you into a joke among the community's members, so think twice before pulling that off. With that said, here's your answer, Panther-T: Escavalier is a decent Pokemon, thanks to its ability to counter cleric Sylveon and most Celebi sets (Swords Dance + Baton Pass and Hidden Power Fire variants can bypass it, and even though the latter isn't really common, Baton Pass sets are common and there are many common recipients that aren't really bothered by Escavalier's attacks, such as Entei and Conkeldurr). However, that's what makes it a B+ Pokemon at best, and not something that can actually be used as an argument to move it up, considering that pretty much every other common Pokemon gives Escavalier a rough time. All Pokemon in S and A+ aside from Sylveon and Celebi can pressure Escavalier hard, and while it's true that it can force Aerodactyl and Krookodile out if it somehow comes in at full HP, it can't actually switch in on them, which is huge in Aerodactyl's case because most people usually use their Steel-type Pokemon slot to cover Mega Aerodactyl. Also, how does Escavalier provide "far more team support and utility" than Bronzong, Metagross and Doublade? Metagross is a top 2 offensive Stealth Rock user at the moment, while also being able to run a ridiculously good lure set, Bronzong is a Steel-type SR setter that checks a million different threats (including Nidoqueen and Nidoking!) on its own, with Krookodile being pretty much the only thing between it and the upper rankings of the list and Doublade is a staple on HO and even finds its way onto some less offensive teams due to its insane physical bulk, which allows it to check Beedrill, Aerodactyl, Mienshao and some other Pokemon that would eat offensive teams alive on their own otherwise, so saying Escavalier is more useful than these 3 Pokemon is stretching it a little (read: a lot). This should sum up my stance well, so excuse me for the vague answer I gave you at first. With that said, Escavalier isn't moving up unless something colossal happens the next time there's a tier shift (which is possible, by the way, since Mega Venusaur is pretty close to dropping)

RE: "Ranking based on Waifu appeal"

What is this even supposed to mean lol

What brightspark dropped torn out of A-.

Move that shit to A+/S already.

Things that swap into taunt + LO more than once with babbles up do not exist and it flat wins any offense mirror. Hurri miss is overexagerated, 70% of the time when torn comes in something dies (or you just win).

That's not even considering torns other niches. Which are also semi-unique and highly viable.

Edit: Didn't check where lucario is but it's too low. The laundry list of things that stop +2 luke is "Oh fuck spikes are up I lose". Checked, luke is in B lol, good joke.
What is this even supposed to mean lol

Yes, a speed tier above everything but scarfed garbage, mega aero, and crobat is too slow.

4mss means you fucked up in teambuilding, not that the mon is bad at its job. Lucario is inarguably the strongest wincon offense can bring to the table, the actual fuck is it in B.

Edit Freeroamer: stone edge Luke blows through Gyara and has a pretty strong natural game against gligar. Atm luke should just run edge/ice on jolly and BP on adamant.

Doublade is still legit af, it just needs absurdly high speed investment to function post drops so eq/crunch are less appealing.
What is this even supposed to mean lol

Do you really like how "Pearl completely missed the Lucario nomination"? Then here are some things you can do to make sure people take your posts seriously the next time around (a.k.a. Viability Ranking Poster: Beginner's Guide):

1. Be coherent. You can't just say this:
We rank on raw waifu appeal and overblown hype here
after you've said this in a previous post:
What brightspark dropped torn out of A-.

Move that shit to A+/S already.
or say this:
4mss means you fucked up in teambuilding, not that the mon is bad at its job.
just to include this in the very same post:
stone edge Luke blows through Gyara and has a pretty strong natural game against gligar. Atm luke should just run edge/ice on jolly and BP on adamant.

Doublade is still legit af, it just needs absurdly high speed investment to function post drops so eq/crunch are less appealing.
It's pretty much the same as saying this:
Over-exaggerated jjoshcja post said:
hey guys, Lucario is the best wincon on offense lolol, here's the set I use lolol:


Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly + Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch
- Iron Tail
2. Get your facts right. Why the fuck are you calling the Pokemon in B+ (in fact, Lucario isn't even in B rank right now, so you failed right off the bat) "the shit squad"? Not being in the upper rankings doesn't make a Pokemon bad, it just means they're a lot less easy to slap onto teams than the most "viable" Pokemon, which is exactly what happens with Lucario. It's a good Pokemon, no doubt, and I have a decent amount of good Lucario teams, but it suffers from some issues that you completely overlooked, such as the lack of opportunities to grab a boost without losing a big part of its HP in return (Choice Band Krookodile's Knock Off and Choice Specs Hydreigon's Dark Pulse are both 2HKOs FWIW), the amount of support it requires to pull off a sweep consistently (hazards, weakened checks, certain threats removed entirely), 4MSS, meaning that it can't cover every possible check/counter with its move choices and so on. Also, Lucario isn't even the best sweeper on offense, considering that Mega Sharpedo, Mega Swampert, Infernape and Gyarados are all more splashable and require less support than Lucario.

3. Respect the other users. We're here to create a resource for newer players to use, not to sling shit or make passive-aggressive remarks at people for no reason at all. Here's a compilation from these last two pages:

What brightspark dropped torn out of A-.
Checked, luke is in B lol, good joke.
We rank on raw waifu appeal and overblown hype here, and that's the only reasonable explanation for A+ krook never mind S. That said S rank krook is logically consistent for this thread
Rather I am openly mocking the special snowflake who decided that "nah we don't need objectivity" and have been since they decided to go that route.
4. Get your point across clearly. This one is directly related to the previous points. Here's my favorite example:
I didn't put any rank in the post because actually viewing what is in the A-/A ranks gives me eye cancer. (MBee drop when)
Why didn't you put a rank in your nominations? It was obvious that you wanted Lucario to move up somewhere, but how should I decipher your post if you don't even know Lucario's current rank? In fact, you say that it's in B rank like 3 or 4 times throughout all of your recent posts.

That's not the main point here though, because what I truly want to refer to is the part where you say that the rankings are giving you eye cancer. If you feel like we're not doing a good job, just mention what we should improve (in your opinion) instead of giving us shit without any reasonable explanation.

5. Remember that no matter how many objective criteria people create, there'll always be subjectivity involved in this sort of threads. Self-explanatory, since it's just impossible to compare so many different Pokemon with all sorts of unique niches, so keep that in mind.

This should be all for now. Don't expect me to reply back to you ever again, by the way.

RE: Entei, Krokodile and upper ranking inflation in general

This is a pretty complicated matter, but me and the rest of the team will try our best to make sure the thread's upper rankings get cleaned up as soon as possible. I'm usually not too worried about rank inflation in these sort of threads, considering that there's no point in moving stuff up and down based on aesthetic reasons (with this I'm trying to say that if something belongs in B+, according to the community's opinion, I'm not going to keep it in A- or B just because B+ has too many Pokemon already), but as dodmen said, it's important to make the distinction between "hella good Pokemon" and "metagame defining Pokemon". With that said, I'd love to hear the community's opinion on this matter, so feel free to discuss it.
 
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Tirishia

Banned deucer.
... then it either had no business happening at the time it was posted or the team just wasn't up to date enough.
If you disagree with us and feel like we should've listened to your nomination, then you have the right to push for it one more time, but don't expect it to work out unless a popular trend bumps the Pokemon's viability up.
Hey buddy. I just have a quick question based on how you worded these sentences here. I also remember you mentioning this in an earlier post. "...finally stopped sleeping on Tornadus." My question is: Should we back up our nominations with current meta changes that validates our nomination, or is it still proper to make a nomination that is not based on recent meta changes, but rather new trends or discovered potential? Maybe when you said people stopped sleeping on Tornadus, you mean in the current meta, but I want to know if a pokemon can be good and deserves a higher ranking without being noticed. My follow up to that is: If a pokemon should be potentially higher on the rankings but no one has discovered it but the nominator, is it better to wait until this pokemon has proven itself through tournament play or ladder trends before making the nomination? For example, I could have said that mega bannette is easily C- rank but no one would have taken me seriously unless dodmen starting winning uu majors games with it. Should I hold off on nominations that are unpopular?
 

YABO

King Turt
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Hey buddy. I just have a quick question based on how you worded these sentences here. I also remember you mentioning this in an earlier post. "...finally stopped sleeping on Tornadus." My question is: Should we back up our nominations with current meta changes that validates our nomination, or is it still proper to make a nomination that is not based on recent meta changes, but rather new trends or discovered potential? Maybe when you said people stopped sleeping on Tornadus, you mean in the current meta, but I want to know if a pokemon can be good and deserves a higher ranking without being noticed. My follow up to that is: If a pokemon should be potentially higher on the rankings but no one has discovered it but the nominator, is it better to wait until this pokemon has proven itself through tournament play or ladder trends before making the nomination? For example, I could have said that mega bannette is easily C- rank but no one would have taken me seriously unless dodmen starting winning uu majors games with it. Should I hold off on nominations that are unpopular?
Hey, the idea isn't so much that you should hold off on nominations that are unpopular, but that you should acquire proof and reasoning for whatever nomination you want to make. Of course something holds more weight when brought forward by Dodmen after success in UU Majors but if you've been tearing up the ladder with some sleeper pokemon like Omastar or whatever, don't be afraid to post about it here. A bunch of pokemon have untapped potential and so long as you're able to provide solid replays against competent opponents which show your pokemon doing something unique then it's strongly encouraged that you make your nomination.
 

Accel

arise
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Hey buddy. I just have a quick question based on how you worded these sentences here. I also remember you mentioning this in an earlier post. "...finally stopped sleeping on Tornadus." My question is: Should we back up our nominations with current meta changes that validates our nomination, or is it still proper to make a nomination that is not based on recent meta changes, but rather new trends or discovered potential? Maybe when you said people stopped sleeping on Tornadus, you mean in the current meta, but I want to know if a pokemon can be good and deserves a higher ranking without being noticed. My follow up to that is: If a pokemon should be potentially higher on the rankings but no one has discovered it but the nominator, is it better to wait until this pokemon has proven itself through tournament play or ladder trends before making the nomination? For example, I could have said that mega bannette is easily C- rank but no one would have taken me seriously unless dodmen starting winning uu majors games with it. Should I hold off on nominations that are unpopular?
Make all the nominations you want my dude. This is a place that's meant for us to discuss these very subjects, and without the innovation of our previous UU genuises, our viability rankings wouldn't be as detailed as they are now. It's a little obvious, but what I would advise you to do is to support any future nomination of yours (or anyone else's for that matter) by means of the effects it can have on some of the more popular mons in the tier. Even if some nominations are unpopular, I bet there will be loads of people who will be open to hearing any opinions regarding them, especially if you back them up well and include any relevant replays which would showcase a particular mon's effectiveness.

Take Durant for example; it's a great anti-meta mon at the moment and pressurizes most balanced and offensive builds extremely well. I believe it was nommed earlier, and before that nom, most people treated it as a gimmicky choice or stated that it was hard to support. People would attack its defensive utility by mentioning how it couldn't switch into Sylveon safely or something along those lines, and they'd try their best to steer the conversation from the direction it was pointed towards earlier. Obviously, the nom was brought up to talk about Durant's offensive impact, and it's definitely a force to be reckoned with based on that alone.

The point is, nom anything you want as long as you can support it well and prove that it isn't just another gimmick and that it deserves to have a spot carved just for it in this meta.

Edit: Gdi YABO I hate you so much :p
 

Forretress to A-: Strongly Disagree
The issue with Forretress is that on paper it offers insane role compression. For starters, it in theory offers hazard control at a point in the metagame where demand is at its peak. It also in theory provides a team with a useful specially defensive and defensive pivot which can check Pokemon such as Sylveon, Celebi, Florges (lol), Mega Sceptile, Mega Aerodactyl, Haxorus, Mega Beedrill and Crobat (of course its ability to check these Pokemon depend on its spread -- specially or physically defensive). To top it off, it provides the ability to pivot out of bad matchups and assist Pokemon that appreciate a slow volt switch/u-turn. Therefore, on paper it appears that Forretress provides incredible role compression for one team slot.

However, in practice, Forretress struggles to do all this due to how easily it allows itself to get pressured. What I mean by this is that relying on Forretress to check the aforementioned threats, setup hazards and spin all in one game is unrealistic due to the lack of recovery Forretress is plagued with. This problem is exacerbated by running a specially defensive spread, as a lot of builds force Forretress to check Pokemon like specs Sylveon and Celebi (among others, but these are the two major ones that come to mind). Having your Sylveon 'check,' hazard setter, and hazard remover force itself to take 40% from specs hyper voice (not to mention how easily it is to click HP Fire) means that in most matchups, Forretress really cannot do perform all the roles it is expected to and on paper can accomplish for a team. The overarching point is that Forretress may look like a solid pick on paper, but in practice, it finds itself unable to actually fulfil all the roles it on paper can accomplish. For that reason, it is not due to rise.
;_;

Personally, I think Forretress comfortably belongs in A-. I've bolded the points I want to touch on in Panther-T's post specifically, because that's where I think the general negative consensus surrounding Forry comes from. Just because it offers "insane role compression" and can do "all this" doesn't mean it should have to, which goes especially wrong in building with Forretress, from what I can tell.

Forretress can do a couple of things very well and has great synergy with a couple of (other) UU staples that alleviate the pressure on Forretress to perform certain roles. However, when asked to do too many structural things for a team it, indeed, will go wrong in practice, so don't. Support Forretress by using alternate checks to Mega Aerodactyl and Celebi as well, for example. Cleric Sylveon takes the pressure off of Forretress to check Mega Sceptile (and many other threats), as well as keeping it healthy through Wish support. Roar Suicune can take advantage of Forretress' Spikes amazingly, while switching into Mega Aerodactyl and Crobat comfortably, so Forretress doesn't have to. Forretress is a fantastic option for Spikes/Toxic Spikes support on your UU team with the ability to add some extra role compression as well, in my opinion. :)

(Please stop using Stealth Rock Forretress, btw. ;_;)
 

Kink

it's a thug life ¨̮
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Hi! The next person to use this thread as their personal venting platform will be infracted. If someone says something you don't like, especially if it's personal, take it to pm/vm. Don't clunk up this thread with your garbage. And to those making things personal, wise up. We see all.

I love Krookodile :heart:
 
;_;

Personally, I think Forretress comfortably belongs in A-. I've bolded the points I want to touch on in Panther-T's post specifically, because that's where I think the general negative consensus surrounding Forry comes from. Just because it offers "insane role compression" and can do "all this" doesn't mean it should have to, which goes especially wrong in building with Forretress, from what I can tell.

Forretress can do a couple of things very well and has great synergy with a couple of (other) UU staples that alleviate the pressure on Forretress to perform certain roles. However, when asked to do too many structural things for a team it, indeed, will go wrong in practice, so don't. Support Forretress by using alternate checks to Mega Aerodactyl and Celebi as well, for example. Cleric Sylveon takes the pressure off of Forretress to check Mega Sceptile (and many other threats), as well as keeping it healthy through Wish support. Roar Suicune can take advantage of Forretress' Spikes amazingly, while switching into Mega Aerodactyl and Crobat comfortably, so Forretress doesn't have to. Forretress is a fantastic option for Spikes/Toxic Spikes support on your UU team with the ability to add some extra role compression as well, in my opinion. :)

(Please stop using Stealth Rock Forretress, btw. ;_;)
i think the argument against it rising would be that despite it being able to do all these things, it can never really do all of them, and for each role that you would want it to do, there are better mons (i.e. bronzong for mega scept/aero check that is also steel type and can set up rocks and check sylveon, tentacruel for spinner + sylv check + whatever). I suppose its strength comes from its ability to do it all, but just not super consistently. The team/core aspect (in that it pairs well with like 1 or 2 other mons to check a lot) is good and all but idk if that should affect the individual mon's viability u feel me
 
Alright, so for the first part of this post, I'll put in my two cents about the mons currently under discussion:

Krookodile to S:
I'm on board with this change, as I think Krook has become more and more fitting of the term "metagame defining" as the later stages of ORAS progressed. When I describe Krook as metagame defining, although obviously not to the extent of some mons that are both still here and have been in the past such as Suicune, Salamence etc etc, I draw on the things we've been realizing about it in the tier that has caused it to shoot up through the viability rankings over the past few months. Krook has an incredible STAB combo in Ground and Dark and lacks a sizable pool of (read) counters between incredibly high power Knock Off, Earthquake, and Superpower, (also, why is Stone Edge being discussed on Krook? Tell me if I'm missing something, but Edge on Krook I can only see hitting Gyarados, Mandibuzz, and Crobat well, two of which never enjoy potentially switching in on Knock Off and the other being not too common while Krook has good or great synergy with things that can check Mandi like Cobalion and Sylveon.) leaving essentially Alomomola, Mandibuzz and Chesnaught as the only real safe switchins that dont need to scout first, by virtue of sheer bulk in Alo's case or unique typing with Chesnaught and Mandibuzz, and then these are fairly uncommon outside of the bulkier balance and stall teams, which have been on the decline themselves as well. These metagame trends have helped Krook out a ton as an offensive mon as these trends have been pretty damn steady since about when we first introduced Gyarados. In addition to all the trends helping its ridiculous STAB combo, sitting at 92 base speed leaves it just above and outside of the generally crowded base 70-90 speed tiers, making it even a big threat to offense that feature such pokemon. As it was explained for Hydreigon i don't know how many times in the np thread, its base speed isnt the highest, but its light years away from being considered bad. If you play it well, there's not many teams that can have a CB Krook go down without taking a considerable amount of damage, whether it being a weakened/KO'd mon or two, or the opposing team losing invaluable items. In addition, Krookodile also possesses above average defensive utility as an offensive mon, a common trait among many pokemon that populate the upper A-S ranks. Through Intimidate, it gains the ability to take a lot of hits better and is even an easy way to splash a volt switch blocker*(the second part of this post is gonna be why this is a good thing on paper but not necessarily so in practice) onto a lot of team styles. To top all the positives off, I'm reiterating the fact that it has excellent offensive (or even defensive) synergy with top threats in the tier like Celebi, Sylveon, Gyarados, Beedrill, Sceptile, etc. I could go on with that list, but all the way up to this point, I haven't exactly explained how I believe it to be metagame defining. The way that Shuca Berry on offensive Empoleon or Cobalion has become the go-to item to give the team some kind of cushion to fall back on against it in dire situations (which is why Superpower is good). Yes, this was originally an option to give mamo-weak teams breathing room against it, but with mamo being recognized as more and more manageable, while Krook is taking its place as the offensive Ground to use, I can guarantee that I, and likely many others, consider Krook before Mamo when adding a Shuca-holding steel type to a team nowadays. Another mon in particular that takes a hit in its viability, not necessarily a change in common item usage, is Chandelure. On paper Chandy has decent 80 speed, devastating 145 base SpA and another incredible STAB combo in Ghost and Dark. Between Specs and its SubCM sets, it can theoretically dismantle Balance and/or Stall with relative ease. Krook's (although MAero's ability to perform the same task at hand here is noteworthy to chandelure's limited, as I'll call it, viability) universally high usage keeps a mon that was banned from UU in Gen 5 in a middling B rank now because it fails to be able to really power through bulkier teams that do have a krook (which nearly 1 in 5 teams do at this point barring most hard stall), since it is likely to be put out of long-term commission for such a task even if it does predict the Pursuit correctly. I know here I've only provided two examples of how Krook can be seen as metagame defining, and it's certainly not as influential as mons like MAero and Hydreigon. It's all around incredibly good at what it does despite being somewhat one-dimensional (see: Entei) and it's presence in the tier has proven to cause a shift in how other UU mons are used. I'd say with all this on its side, Krookodile is indeed befitting of S rank.


Forretress to A-:
While I personally am not the biggest fan of this thing and I honestly dislike using it for the most part, I won't let any bias i have with it stop me from giving my honest thoughts about it in the metagame, and with that, I do support this change. TonyFlygon's post defending it was spot-on: while it's great at role compression, it shouldn't necessarily be your only answer to Aero, Celebi, Sylveon etc as well as trying to spin and lay spikes. It's good in its own right about doing these things, but it tends to get slapped on teams for the ability to do all of these things in one slot and as a result, gets overloaded. This isn't Forry's fault as a pokemon; "lazy teambuilding", as I like to call it, uses mons like Forretress that cover a lot of roles on paper all the while putting less thought into it. Forretress does work to cover a lot of things at once, and if you get into a bad situation where it has to perform one or more of these roles, it can really shine as a pokemon. But if Forretress ends up being the go-to answer for a bunch of top threats on the metagame, some of which like previously mentioned Aero, Celebi, and Sylveon, who often find themselves all together on one team, it's gonna end up breaking down and not being able to perform the tasks a team really needs. It's an A- worthy mon; things in A- are good at what they do, but aren't gonna be able to take on a vast majority of the metaby themselves. They don't need a ton of support to function well, but they still of course need the proper support to function. Forretress, in my opinion, gets a lot more shit than it really deserves, while it fits this description pretty damn well and is indeed deserving of A-.


As for Duggy and Gligar, I've seen them used a bit more recently and they seem to have their good niches, but I don't particularly have any experience with them, so I can't speak as well as others could on the matter. Concerning the Escav nom, its proving to be the only 100% answer to Celebi, a trait it became appreciated for in the Zam meta which brought it up on the rankings in the first place. The matchup Celebi has with it is pretty similar to Zam, so I'm pretty neutral on this matter as it was discovered as a overall decent mon with Zam around, and the kind of pokemon it checks in this meta hasn't really changed (such as being a good fairy check and pursuit trapper for broken psychic), but at the same time what has become the current cookie cutter pokemon in UU typically have a hard time dealing with its STABs and breaking through its special bulk efficiently.


UU Electric Types:
For this, I'm going to argue to move Heliolisk and Galvantula up at least one rank. Perhaps more can come in the future but for now the definition of A rank mons that I gave in my Krookodile essay is something they don't quite live up to in my opinion. I've had more experience using Helio compared to Galv but the principle stays the same. I also won't include Mega Ampharos here, since being a mega gives it a bit more opportunity cost compared to the other electrics mentioned. I think that B and B- rank respectively is doing them a disservice to what they can bring to a team offensively. As I mentioned in my argument for Krookodile, upper A through S rank pokemon commonly are a good mix of having offensive presence/acting as a wincon and presenting decent defensive utility to the team they're on. I really can't say the same for Helio and Galv, as they're admittedly pretty useless from a defensive viewpoint bar Heliolisk being immune to Scald. As such, I don't particularly think them worthy of moving up all too high on the rankings at this point. But I'd like to make the argument that clicking Volt Switch and gaining momentum with these two is insanely easy. Common VS immunities like Krookodile, MScep, and Swampert fear coming in on Specs Hyper Voice or LO Galv's Bug Buzz/Energy Ball. Hell, even Sticky Web on Galv is pretty good with hazard control at the best is subpar in this meta and a well-built webs team can keep up the webs pretty easily. Essentially, I find these two to be underappreciated offensively because a Ground type is arbitrarily considered an electric immunity without really considering the implications of what an electric type is in ORAS UU. Both are fast at 108 and 109 base speeds, keeping the pool of non-scarf offensive checks pretty small. Making a mid-ground play like switching in blissey/sylveon/cress (though not even cress in Galvantula's case!) will end up being a big momentum drain for the team on the defensive, as a wallbreaker like Krookodile, Conkeldurr, etc will probably be on its way in from the Volt Switch. I won't say much more about them since they're fairly one-dimensional, but I think that they're pretty underappreciated as fast, strong momentum grabbers that aren't too worried about the common Ground types/ Mscept hard switching into them. I think they should be ranked a little higher, since a few turns of having the initiative in your favor can definitely turn a game or two around in this meta, and Heliolisk and Galvantula's ability to do so is definitely underappreciated and under-prepared for.
 

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