Metagame NP: SM RU Stage 1 - Strange Mercy (Feraligatr Unbanned)

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atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Current RU Banlist:

Baton Pass
Bewear
Crawdaunt
Drizzle
Feraligatr
Hawlucha
Kyurem
Lucario
Suicune
Talonflame
Tornadus
Venomoth


The first Pokemon to be suspected is Hawlucha, which means it will be reintroduced to the ladder and then voted on by the council and rotating council, a simple majority (6/11 or 7/13) will be required to unban Hawlucha. A more detailed version of the tiering process can be found in this thread.

Use this thread to discuss the state of the current meta as well as the place of the suspect in the meta.
 

Lord Death Man

i cant read
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I'm very interested in testing Hawlucha in the new meta because I was personally of the opinion that, despite all it's good aspects, Hawlucha was a very good but also lackluster pokemon in the meta immediately preceding the tier shift that it was banned. However, since then, we've lost Crobat and Metagross - two pokemon widely applicable on many playstyles that just beat most popular Hawlucha sets.

While we gained new checks for SubSD - Haze Mantine and Pyukumuku - and other checks came into favor - Acrobatics Gligar, Comfey - I think it's worth stressing that Hawlucha doesn't have only one set; while Power Herb SD is sometimes mocked for it's weakness to priority and status, it's also more able to take on some Hawlucha checks than the alternative, KOing Mantine, Comfey, and Florges after rocks, while giving it more options in the face of the two mons who outspeed and bypass Hawlucha's subs, Swellow and Noivern. I think with both of these sets factored in, Hawlucha will likely be broken and, by extension, banworthy.

Unrelated, but there's two mons I've been really enjoying lately that I wanted to talk about and haven't seen much of.
Bulky Critdra
Kingdra @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 168 HP / 156 SpA / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Focus Energy
- Agility

I've been having a lot of fun with this because it does so well at breaking up a lot of more common balance cores I've been facing lately. The given special attack is so that a crit Hydro Pump will always KO 252 HP Comfey - it was originally enough so a non-crit Hydro always KO'd 40 hp Nidoqueen, but it was only 8 or 12 evs away so I bumped it up. From there, the speed is faster than 252 speed modest Nidoqueen as well, ensuring the KO and also that it doesn't stop you. Evs can be bumped up for enough speed for modest base 80s, but I don't think any of those are common at all (Garde seems to run Timid to me and Goodra doesn't usually run max speed). It's 32 extra speed evs to do so, and you still live the main bulk goal (florges Moonblast) but with a little less leeway in setting up.

The main point of this set is to ease Kingdra setting up by giving it a good amount of bulky to go along with it's excellent defensive typing. The given speed should be enough for most defensive teams, and the given power should let you break down at least one defensive mon. The bulk is also very useful for grabbing an Agility vs the kinds of teams you need it for, especially if they lack strong priority (as most teams do), since Hydro can often go pretty far in helping you clean. The given spread can notably also set up (preferably a second boost, but Focus Energy breaks it) vs unboosted Comfey (252+ modest narrowly fails to 2hko) as well, which can be terrifying for those kinds of teams. Overall I think Kingdra is a very underexplored mon.

Offensive SR Necrozma
Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Charge Beam

An interesting rocker I meant to try way back when it dropped, I think Necro is horribly let down by it's awful offensive movepool, which notably lacks would-be useful moves like Thunder(bolt) and Focus Blast. However, I've had success with this spread which attempts to encapsulate some of Necrozma's better features as a rocker into one set. Despite it's glaring flaws, I've found Necrozma to actually be very reliable and useful in this role, especially as many teams utilize Mantine as a defogger and rely on pursuit trapping to handle Psychics, as Necrozma can survive off all but the stronges STAB pursuits.

Charge Beam is the weirdest looking move here, but it lets Necro prevent Mantine from defogging away it's rocks, which is incredibly useful, and is also it's only move to hit Honchkrow with other than Power Gem. HP Fire can be replaced with Dark Pulse, but both serve the purpose of letting Necrozma do something to common would-be checks, with Dark Pulse hitting Espeon, Slowbro, and Dhelmise hard and HP Fire hitting Escavalier hard - both hit Bronzong and Doublade.

The coolest thing about this set is that it cleanly OHKOs Nidoqueen who can't OHKO back, without being defog bait for Mantine and barely being defog bait for Gligar (since you can fish for drops or high rolls all day), giving it good matchups versus almost every hazard remover - main exception being Cryogonal, which can't easily switch in. In general, Charge Beam can also be useful versus mons like Milotic that otherwise would win 1 v 1, as a +1 Psychic often does enough to neutralize them as threats.

The speed is for Pangoro, which this set does admittidly nothing back to but chip damage, but Life Orb Pangoro needs a high roll to KO with Knock which can give you turns to fish for charge beam raises/chip it. It also speed ties other stuff creeping for that speed, which is nice, and should probably run a little speed creep over these numbers.

An alternative spread of 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe outspeeds the fastest Modest Nidoqueens, and is absolutely a viable set, as my given bulk doesn't hit any particular benchmark, but rather makes Necrozma more resistant to being slowly worn down.
 
One pokemon that I feel like some people are sleeping on is Vivillon.
Too many people underestimate the usefulness of a 98% accurate
sleep powder and a 91% hurricane. Additionally, a base 88 speed tier
means that if it is able to set up a quiver dance, it can outspeed
any scarf rotom and/or heracross. One cannot forget the stealth rock weakness and
the need for a focus sash. However, there are some viable hazard removers in
this tier, such as Flygon, Mantine, and Donphan. If Vivillon is paried with a strong
physical wallbreaker and a fire type (I feel houndoom works well), this pokemon can sweep teams.

However, I will admit that I am extremely new yet, so talk my words with a grain of salt.
 
Honestly, what counters does offense have for Hawlucha aside from Doublade? If you lack Yanmega, Sharpedo, or Doublade, you're fucked. The only Pokemon that outspeeds it after an Unburden boost is a +2 Minior, and even then the meteor has to be in its core form to even outspeed. But then you have this:

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Minior: 366-432 (140.2 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And even without the boost it still has a chance to OHKO after Rocks (252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Minior: 184-217 (70.4 - 83.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). The wide majority of RU at this point is comprised of offensive threats, and with the combination of Hawlucha's STAB combo and speed, it's just too much for the meta to handle. And the majority of defensive mons such as Chesnaught and Milotic fall to it after a boost or chip damage. My point here is that once Hawlucha gets going, it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to stop. Due to all of its factors, such as this (having no checks on offense aside from two mons whom are very frail), STAB only resisted by Doublade, and just sheer power, I personally believe its banworthy. But I can't vote so :p

Also echoing iloveweather's words, I'm just getting back into mons, so i could be wrong lol

EDIT: Forgot about Comfey and Cress, but Cress is more stall-oriented and Comfey has to run max Special Attack and be a +1 to have a chance to OHKO, and then you're giving up the bulk you need to not get wrecked by Acro.
 
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Honestly, what counters does offense have for Hawlucha aside from Doublade? If you lack Yanmega, Sharpedo, or Doublade, you're fucked. The only Pokemon that outspeeds it after an Unburden boost is a +2 Minior, and even then the meteor has to be in its core form to even outspeed. But then you have this:

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Minior: 366-432 (140.2 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And even without the boost it still has a chance to OHKO after Rocks (252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Minior: 184-217 (70.4 - 83.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). The wide majority of RU at this point is comprised of offensive threats, and with the combination of Hawlucha's STAB combo and speed, it's just too much for the meta to handle. And the majority of defensive mons such as Chesnaught and Milotic fall to it after a boost or chip damage. My point here is that once Hawlucha gets going, it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to stop. Due to all of its factors, such as this (having no checks on offense aside from two mons whom are very frail), STAB only resisted by Doublade, and just sheer power, I personally believe its banworthy. But I can't vote so :p

Also echoing iloveweather's words, I'm just getting back into mons, so i could be wrong lol
Cresselia is bulky enough to tank +2 acrobatics. Other then that, you can try running protect on random flying resists like gigalith or bronzong and make it kill itself with HJK recoil. Or bring comfey, which can outspeed it with draining kiss no matter how fast lucha is.
Edit: Also sneasel can revenge with ice shard and is pretty good.
 
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What mons can counter Durant this generation? It can OHKO many former checks with the Z-Crystals of Thunder Fang and Crunch. You shouldn't forget that it can run its old Life Orb Hone Claws set and the choiced sets. I think Durant is one of those pokemon that is even better than last generation but most people seem to forget about it. It is more versatile than it was before. Here are your sets to go:

Durant @ Choice Scarf/ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Crunch/ X-Scissor
- Thunder Fang
- Superpower

Durant @ Darkinium Z/ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hone Claws
- Iron Head
- Crunch
- Superpower


Durant @ Life Orb/ Darkinium Z/Electrium Z for Watertype OHKOs)
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hone Claws
- Iron Head
- Crunch
- Thunder Fang

As long as Doublade is here, you really want to run Crunch on every of your sets. For sure, you can run Rock Slide if you need the coverage. With this versatility, Durant is a pokemon that can get you in trouble because you never know which set it runs until it gets one kill.
I know we are in the beginning of the RU meta, but I think the little ant will waste its time in BL2 like in the end of Oras UU in a few months
 
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Virizion @ Rockium Z / Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Stone Edge

Virizion was a premier sweeper last gen, and while it's fallen off a little this gen due to faster threats, bigger walls, and new toy syndrome, with Z-moves it's more than capable of cleaning through teams. SD is still an extremely potent late-game cleaner, but with Z-moves it can now blow past threats it would otherwise have trouble with, such as Dhelmise, Kommo-o, or Nidoqueen, depending on the Z-Move.

+2 252 Atk Virizion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 271-319 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Virizion All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 399-469 (137.1 - 161.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Virizion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 305-359 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Grass/Fighting is still amazing type coverage, and Virizion's SpD still lets it take a hit from a lot of Pokémon and set up, just less than before. It's a surprisingly good Late-game cleaner after all of the Pokémon faster than it are gone.
 
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I need to post this really funny Froslass set.


Froslass @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Avalanche
- Destiny Bond
- Spikes

The idea here is that since Destiny Bond doesn't work consecutively this gen, opponents that are slower than Froslass will be more inclined to attack on the turn immediately after using it. So you use Avalanche which has -4 priority. Since the Destiny Bond effect lasts until you actually execute the Avalanche, the opponent will attack first, knock out Froslass and be knocked out in return, leaving the opponent scratching their head. When it works properly it's pretty funny and it's a creative way to kinda get around the Destiny Bond nerf and use it to your advantage. Most of the time it just works like a regular lead Froslass though. Seriously though you should try this it's great for a laugh.
 

aVocado

@ Everstone
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Honestly, what counters does offense have for Hawlucha aside from Doublade? If you lack Yanmega, Sharpedo, or Doublade, you're fucked. The only Pokemon that outspeeds it after an Unburden boost is a +2 Minior, and even then the meteor has to be in its core form to even outspeed. But then you have this:

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Minior: 366-432 (140.2 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And even without the boost it still has a chance to OHKO after Rocks (252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Minior: 184-217 (70.4 - 83.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). The wide majority of RU at this point is comprised of offensive threats, and with the combination of Hawlucha's STAB combo and speed, it's just too much for the meta to handle. And the majority of defensive mons such as Chesnaught and Milotic fall to it after a boost or chip damage. My point here is that once Hawlucha gets going, it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to stop. Due to all of its factors, such as this (having no checks on offense aside from two mons whom are very frail), STAB only resisted by Doublade, and just sheer power, I personally believe its banworthy. But I can't vote so :p

Also echoing iloveweather's words, I'm just getting back into mons, so i could be wrong lol

EDIT: Forgot about Comfey and Cress, but Cress is more stall-oriented and Comfey has to run max Special Attack and be a +1 to have a chance to OHKO, and then you're giving up the bulk you need to not get wrecked by Acro.
Swellow can soft check Hawlucha since boomburst goes past substitute, but you need to prevent it from getting an unburden boost. Hawlucha's biggest problem for me is that whenever I use it I'm NEVER able to get a swords dance AND an unburden boost going, that's just too much setup for such a frail Pokemon. I honestly feel like Hawlucha is fine but we've been overhyping it too much. Between having decent switchins and Pokemon who can survive any hit Hawlucha throws out at +0 cuz it has 92 base atk, it's as if hawlucha is slightly underwhelming even.
 

Ajna

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Arikado the problem with lucha is that it rips apart offense and bo. it sets up on choice locked scarfers like, durant, flygon, shaymin, and heracross, as well bulkier mons like gligar, chesnaught, rhyperior, gigalith, and bronzong. the only mons that can safely switch into lucha and beat it reliably are fat psychics like reuni, cress, and slowbro, and then of course doublade. nothing on offense is outpacing lucha once it's used its item, meaning that the only mon offensively checking it is comfey. on top of that, lucha has to not be behind a sub, and comfey has to be at full because of the dumb power herb sky attack set. keeping lucha in ru will only restrict offensive builds, which makes them even easier to prepare for. while i do feel that lucha is overhyped, it is one of the only mons in the tier with game ending potential at team preview. it shares this with slurpuff, and linoone (fuck shake for not starting up rupl), but the difference is that it sets up on more mons, has less defensive checks, and can avoid status with substitute. lucha imo is simply too much for the tier.

Espeonage. lucha obviously doesn't beat over ace's team because it's like semi stall, but 49's balance is very susceptible to lucha because the man has no hazard control. even slowbro is taking 54-64 from +2 acro and 68-81 from +2 sky attack. 49's squad pressures hawlucha pretty well, but it still sets up on umbreon and heracross. 49's offense is most likely not going to lose to lucha (even though doublade is easy to wear down/lure), but both of gastro's teams are getting bopped, and so is one of aldo's. im not sure why you brought up the samples though because they weren't built for a meta with hawlucha, but as you can see most offensive teams without doublade are straight losing. in regards to your heracross comparison, i do believe it was fair, but there is a key difference between the two mons. this difference is that heracross is never 6-0ing stall vs a competent opponent. even if a well played hera takes 2 mons and weakens another, it is still possible for that stall player to win because teams with flame orb hera don't have room for another mon that breaks stall. on the other hand, if hawlucha is against offense w/o doublade the skill level of the opponent doesn't matter, the game is simply over. another thing is that stall has to run some niche sets in order to check almost all of the meta game, that's how it's always been. while i know it may sound as if im completely defending heracross, i will recognize that the mon may be too strong because of it's matchup vs fat teams and stall. we will have to wait for the meta to develop to see if we deem heracross as too much for the tier. also, im too lazy to work this into my paragraph, but sneasel and glalie are very uncommon at the moment because they are very hard to fit on to a team. they don't provide much defensive synergy, and are extremely weak to hazards which really sucks in this meta.
 
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but sneasel and glalie are very uncommon at the moment because they are very hard to fit on to a team. they don't provide much defensive synergy, and are extremely weak to hazards which really sucks in this meta.
??? I haven't looked much into Sneasel yet but Mega Glalie certainly has merits that make it a good Pokemon. It seems like you're debunking them as bad just because they're being slept on. For one, neither of them are supposed to provide defensive synergy as one is a wallbreaker and the other is a revenge killer/offensive utility mon. Hazard control being better than it was in ORAS is a good thing for them too. Mega Glalie likes Donphan and Gligar being introduced to the tier and just like last gen, it has few switch-ins, with Return/Double-Edge being powerful moves and doing decent damage to Steel types with Earthquake and Water types with Freeze-Dry. Registeel isn't as good of a Pokemon anymore and Alomomola is no longer in the tier. Though I guess there is still Bronzong. Again, I haven't looked much into Sneasel yet but I believe that Mega Glalie is still a good Pokemon in RU. Just give it a chance.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
I have to disagree with that assessment. I haven't found it hard to fit Mega Glalie on offensive teams at all, and neither Sneasel (although most of the times I opt with Zoroark instead). While they don't contribute anything defensively, like Marrrrrrrrrr said not all pokemon on offensive teams need to contribute defensively. Sneasel can revenge kill a whole lot of threats, and Mega Glalie functions as a neat holepuncher against teams without bulky water-types. Both can be quite useful... Ice STABs can threaten a lot of relevant slower pokemon in this metagame, such as Gligar, Nidoqueen, and Chesnaught. To add on to that, Ice Shard is incredibly useful for offense, and more than just about killing Hawlucha. It can revenge kill DD Flygon, one of the scariest setup sweepers in the tier, Swellow, Shaymin, and any weakened pokemon.

but anyway, this is getting off topic. As for Hawlucha, it's been really hard for me to judge. I've gotten a lot of easy sweeps with it, but that was only because people simply didn't prepare for it. Or they sacked their Doublade early in a battle or whatever. While vs. better players, people have seem to adapted by not running defensive Gligar or Donphan with moves that cannot touch it, or at least running these pokemon with Hawlucha counters. It can still grab setup opportunities in most games due to its decent typing and bulk, but usually not in a range that can keep it from being revenge killed by priority such as Ice Shard or Comfey's Draining Kiss, which are very useful in this meta (not centralizing just b/c of Hawlucha). Doublade continues to be one of the most popular, if not the most popular pokemon in the tier, and Slowbro, Florges, and Cresselia are not uncommon either. On a surface level, it does not appear to be broken.

The problem begins when you start actively building around Hawlucha instead of just throwing it on a team because it's a good pokemon. Hawlucha with proper support, is incredibly frightening. A lot of Hawlucha's checks and counters are quite easily pressured, and overwhelmed because they function as blanket checks to a lot of other popular threats in the tier, so it's not that easy to simply preserve these pokemon. Take Doublade for example, easily lured by something like Gardevoir or Life Orb Roserade. Or Cresselia and Slowbro can be worn down by Toxic or a multitude of setup sweepers. Zoroark in particular is a fantastic partner for Hawlucha if played well, as it can destroy nearly all of Hawlucha's common checks with both physical and special sets.

https://hastebin.com/azeriniqut.diff

^Here's an example of a team that I found extremely easy to sweep with- Hawlucha sun. The chlorophyll abusers are able to pressure Hawlucha's checks and counters so easily that sweeping with Hawlucha lategame is often no trouble. Now you may say that any pokemon can sweep if given support and if you play well, and that's a valid argument. But sometimes I feel that Hawlucha offers a bit too much reward for comparatively low amounts of support.

I'm still undecided on Hawlucha, but those are my thoughts.
 

Ajna

i tell my ppl i don't need love but
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Two-Time Past SCL Champion
as spooky said, i never stated that either were bad, but i will elaborate on why i said they are hard to fit on teams. even offensive teams in this meta need a reliable check to bulky psychics like reuni and cress, and sneasel fails to provide that. in oras sneasel was such a good mon because it trapped/checked all of the psychics we had in the tier. in this generation it fails to do this because of the sheer bulk of both cress and reuni. even non z move reuni can simply recover on the knock and kill sneasel with its coverage move. with cress' massive natural bulk, sneasel is never winning versus any good set. add that onto the fact that sneasel takes 37 percent + life orb damage if it comes into sr and spikes. this means that sneasel can't check things like flygon and lucha as many times as it may need to, and because roserade and chesnaught are both very good at setting and keeping spikes, this is not an uncommon scenario. this leads me into the reason for why not many people are using glalie. glalie is a decent wallbreaker, but it is stopped dead in its tracks by zong which is the most common rocker. unless you're using like spikes boom on ho to lure zong for another mon, there's no big reason to use it over frosslass. glalie not only faces competition from frosslass as a spiker for offense/bo, it also faces competition from rose and ches. these two provide much appreciated synergy for bo, are not sr weak, and have more longevity (for what it's worth). glalie and sneasel definitely still have a niche as speedy offensive ice types, but it can be hard to justify using them over other mons in the current meta.
 

Natural Talent

Don't die trying to live..
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Hawlucha is way too much for the tier at the moment. It's amazing speed and boosting abilities, plus decent typing makes it great.

From Swords Dance 3 Atks to Sub Swords Dance, to even a full on attacking set. Not much can stop it from setting up or come in and stop it when it's done setting up so it makes building a hassle.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-563781952
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-563809371
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-563833972

Another Mon that catches my eye in this meta is Salazzle. It's very fun to play with for me and is very convenient when paired with Hawlucha. Nasty Plot 3 Atks, Life Orb, Specs, Sub Toxic, my favorite, Nasty Plot Encore 2 Atks.

Encore helps it beat pokemon that can set up along side it such ass Slowbro, Cresselia, Reuniclus & many more.

Either Poisonium Z or Firium Z to hit opponents a lot harder. (I prefer Firium Z)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-563787740
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-563810934
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-563834698
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-563837880

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw

Hawlucha @ Power Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Sky Attack
- Swords Dance
- High Jump Kick

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 68 SpD / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Moonlight

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam

Ribombee @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sweet Veil
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Moonblast
- U-turn

Salazzle @ Firium Z
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Encore
- Sludge Wave
- Fire Blast
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Hawlucha is way too much for the tier at the moment. It's amazing speed and boosting abilities, plus decent typing makes it great.

From Swords Dance 3 Atks to Sub Swords Dance, to even a full on attacking set. Not much can stop it from setting up or come in and stop it when it's done setting up so it makes building a hassle.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-563781952
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-563809371
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-563833972
It's great that you posted replays, it's important that people can form an opinion on Hawlucha even when they don't encounter it much and replays can demonstrate important arguments made for/against it staying RU. That being said, these replays are terrible examples. Your first opponent didn't know Hawlucha was allowed in RU and therefore did not prepare for it, and to boot he decided to go into Gligar and set SR as Hawlucha was already at +2, when his healthy Necrozma easily could have tanked a +2 Acrobatics and retaliated. Your second opponent prepared very well for Hawlucha and probably is the best replay of these three, but keep in mind that you would not have broken through that defensive Nidoqueen with Hawlucha hadn't it been for that crit (+2 Acro does between 60-70% to a standard defensive Nidoqueen). He also made several misplays, like letting his Bronzong die to your Doublade even though his team is weak to Nidoqueen and he himself had a healthy defensive Nidoqueen ready to tank Doublade's hits. Your third opponent uses Claydol.

The purpose of replays in suspect discussions is to show that the theoretical prowess of a suspect does/does not translate into practice. These replays didn't do any of that, they merely proved that you are a better player than these three people you faced.
 

feen

control
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Hawlucha is just unhealthy for the tier lol. Apart from full defensive teams like stall, you're pretty much at a risk vs Hawlucha. I think one of its key partners is Zoroark, which pretty much lures Lucha's checks, mainly Slowbro, Cresselia, and Doublade. Zoroark + Hawlucha combo is just silly to the point where you have to guess whether to stay in and die to Hawlucha's High Jump Kick / Acrobatics (the likes of weakened Roserade, Virizion, Shaymin, and Chesnaught in general), or switch to one of Hawlucha's checks and risk being KOed by Zoroark. Moreover, Hawlucha's checks aren't really that good at checking. Doublade checks a lot of stuff in the tier and is severely crippled by Knock Off and gets chipped off. Cresselia's susceptible to Toxic and has to be healthy in order to properly check Hawlucha. Slowbro faces huge competition from Mantine as the bulky Water-type, as Mantine offers Defog support and a better Fighting-type check (mainly Heracross), and is susceptible to status as well.

Hawlucha's a even bigger threat for offense than it is for balance. Offensive checks to Hawlucha include only Doublade and Comfey, the former is mentioned in the previous paragraph, while the latter cannot switch into Hawlucha. As stated before in the thread, Hawlucha can easily switch into a Choiced user and set up a Substitute, and proceed to sweep. It is very difficult for an offensive team to recover after Hawlucha set up a Substitute, because it is now the fastest thing in the metagame with two strong STAB moves that can be further boosted if needed.

Of course it can be countered by stall teams especially if you have stuffs like Pyukumuku and Quagsire but otherwise no matter how much you prep for Hawlucha, you're still at a risk of being swept by it. I'm definitely voting ban.
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
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I go back on forth on Hawlucha. On one hand, it has a slew of counters that fit on a plethora of teams, but on the other hand, most of these need to check a bunch of Pokemon and are easily worn down. Before we can really talk about Hawlucha's impact on the metagame, however, I feel we need to have an honest conversation about Zoroark.

Zoroark, as Arifeen already mentioned, is the perfect partner in crime for Hawlucha. Hawlucha's best counters are Doublade and bulky Psychic-types, all of which get KO'd or severely maimed by Zoroark. In most circumstances, the fact that a Pokemon is broken due to good team support does not make it less broken (whether something is broken or not is context-dependent after all), but Zoroark's team support is of another kind. Illusion, I would argue, turns this already great Pokemon into an uncompetitive force in the metagame. The guessing game Arifeen described, where you have to switch your Hawlucha counter into something that might be a Zoroark disguised as Hawlucha or have to stay in and risk letting Hawlucha get a free kill or free setup, is a situation in which the right play cannot be known.

All of this would not be a major problem if only Hawlucha were able to really benefit from Zoroark's ability to lure in several Pokemon and KO them in order to pave the way for a sweep, but Zoroark can put in work in tandem with a ton of sweepers. Doublade is your Scarf Heracross answer? Specially based Zoroark with Dark Pulse/Night Daze can straight up OHKO that, and physically based Zoroark uses Knock Off to severely maim it. You thought you were safe from DD Flygon because you have a Bronzong? Let's see how you feel about that when "Flygon" hits Bronzong with a STAB Knock Off. Zoroark's niche is also demonstrated by Tsunami's very popular sample team, in which Zoroark lures Ghost-types that could halt Linoone's sweep. I could go on and on, but the point is clear. Also keep in mind that Swords Dance Zoroark can further exploit Illusion by forcing switches, allowing it to set up for free and clean teams with STAB Sucker Punches.

The situation is, in a way, similar to the situation with Alomomola and Dugtrio last gen. While Alomomola already was capable of walling most of the tier and arguably an unhealthy force in the tier on its own, it was believed that it was Dugtrio's ability to trap and remove key threats that could exploit Alomomola's passivity that truly pushed it over the edge. Dugtrio, therefore, was suspect tested and banned for its ability to make already great Pokemon even more obnoxious to deal with. Zoroark, although it obviously functions differently from Dugtrio and has a different set of targets, at its core can do a similar thing: using an arguably uncompetitive ability to remove key threats and allowing already excellent threats to shine all the more brighter.

This is not to say that Hawlucha's arguable brokenness is necessarily tied to Zoroark, since even without Zoroark there are arguments to be made against Hawlucha staying in the tier, but I don't think we can have a conversation about Hawlucha's potential without properly assessing the role Zoroark plays in the tier first.
 
Heracross needs to be banned. That thing has virtually no safe switch ins. Its Choice Scarf set ravages HO, while its Flame Orb set smashes bulkier teams to bits. It has decent Speed, great Attack, STAB Megahorn means even Cresselia can't stop it, and its typing is pretty good offensively and defensively. Offensively, it can smash through many of the tier's best walls like Registeel and the aforementioned Cresselia, while defensively it has useful Ground, Grass Fighting and Dark resistances. Unlike most Bug-types it doesn't fear hazards (bar maybe Sticky Web). As far as switch ins go, Doublade can shut down the Scarf set but hates losing its Eviolite; the Flame Orb set 2HKOes with any prior damage. Chesnaught is 2HKOed by a Guts boosted Close Combat, and can at best inflict some chip damage with Spiky Shield. Granbull handles both sets well, but it is rarely seen and generally Florges is a better bulky Fairy-type as that has reliable recovery. Gligar is in much the same camp as Doublade, but sets that run Swords Dance can use it as set up fodder if it lacks Acrobatics (and it usually has better things to use that slot for anyway, like Defog, U-turn, Toxic or Knock Off). Silvally-Ghost with Flamethrower can beat it one on one, but can't switch in.

Calcs:

252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 146-172 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Doublade: 146-172 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
So after any prior damage (a common reality on something that lacks Leftovers) it's getting 2HKOed. BEST case scenario, it's heavily weakened and much easier to kill.
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 178-211 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
If it's running Rocky Helmet, has almost a 3/4 chance to be 2HKOed.

252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 155-183 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO
If Gligar tries to wall Heracross, it's going to lose its Eviolite, making it much less effective. Of course it's also 2HKOed by Façade most of the time once the Eviolite's gone.

-1 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 128-151 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Granbull I'll give you is a counter, but how many times have you seen it lately?

252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ghost: 216-256 (65.2 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Silvally-Ghost Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 166-196 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wins one on one, but still takes a lot of damage and can't switch in.


So tl;dr - ban Heracross.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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I've been playing around with and without Hawlucha and I'm honestly still on the fence, Robert Alfons post kind of covered my thoughts on Hawlucha itself, in that it actually has several splashable answers, but they are typically easier to lure or wear down. Hawlucha is almost completely dead weight against Stall teams (unless you forgo Unburden and run Mold Breaker but that is 2meme4me). I actually have found Hawlucha is pretty difficult to use against most offenses as well, as good offenses at this point give Hawlucha very limited time to set up and/or utilize Doublade. That being said, Hawlucha finds several opportunities to set up against more balanced teams which makes it make it extremely threatening to those types of builds. Obviously you can run Doublade or Cresselia on balance (or Slowbro, thats not as good of an answer though imo), but on that type of team they will probably be responsible for switching in to at least one other pokemon (and Doublade has no recovery) which makes them susceptible to Hawlucha. I haven't had the chance to play with Zoroark + Hawlucha yet, so I'll probably try to do so before the voting takes place.

As for Heracross, I really think its effectiveness is pretty exaggerated in general, SD Flame Orb Heracross is incredibly easy to play around for any team that isn't stall given its not all that fast, takes burn damage every turn and is susceptible to every hazard in the game (barring t spikes). Scarf Heracross has a little bit more effective across the board but the only thing that distinguishes Heracross from other scarfers against HO is moxie, but unless you've lost enough pokemon that you would lose to any generic scarfer at the same point, its not "just winning" against anything except terribly built HO. Don't get me wrong its one of the best Pokemon in the tier, but theres always gonna be a best pokemon in the tier and Heracross isn't so ridiculously hard to build for that it needs to be removed from the tier.
 
Alright I have been doing a lot of experimenting lately and just wanna share thoughts on a mon I have been enjoying lately.


Drapion Waterium Z/Poisonium Z
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Aqua Tail
- Swords Dance

Drapion. I have been interested in this mon for quite a while now and after much testing I have come to learn the effectiveness of this mon. The first thing you will notice is the choices of Z-moves: Waterium Z allows it to break through common defensive checks Rotom-H, Donphan and Gligar(to some extent) amongst others; Poisonium Z allows it to compensate for one of its problems which is later on in the post. After using its Z-Moves to break through what you desire, Drapion is able to still threaten the opposing team with its useful stabs while at +2. Its set up options aren't limited either being able to take advantage of many defensive cores as well as what it threatens with its stabs already. Its quite hard to explain, but its speed tier is weird. Its honestly perfect for what it wants to beat and breakthrough so in terms of revenge killers, the only, common, ones sufficient have flaws if they intend to revenge such as rocks weaknesses or being choice locked. This means Drapion is able to force counter play which allows it to support not only itself but its teammates as well.

However, Drapion, of course, is not a perfect mon. Its main issue is that is, simply put, its weak. Even at +2, many pokemon are able to stomach a neutral attack while being able to retaliate by taking out Drapion, severely weakening it or crippling it. Also keep in mind that Z-moves are a one time thing meaning that it will only be able to break past one of its checks so if your opponent has more than one on there team, Drapion isn't able break as effectively. On top of this Z Crystals take an item slot where an item like Lum Berry would be extremely useful. It also finds trouble getting in since it really doesn't appreciate damage prior to it setting up which overall means that it requires quite a bit of team support to function well.

Overall however, Drapion is well worth the choice of adding if you are in need of a lure to break past certain mons for your teammates. It can function as an effective wallbreaker/sweeper(kind of pushing it :P) provided certain conditions such as possibly heavy hazard stack or volt-turn abuse. If you have any questions or suggestions feel free to PM me or chat to me in the PS room.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
I tried both Hawlucha sets and I think Sky Attack is utter garb, at least when making comparisons. It doesn't set up a easily or as safely as SubSD and I often found myself switching sets because of that. Having said that, SubSD Hawlucha is pretty incredible. While I don't think it's as broken as some people have been saying, in fact it seems narrowly OP, it is a little too much at the moment, however. The problem is the ease in which it sets up combined with how feasible it is to support. All of its most reliable checks tend to share the fact they're Dark weak, minus Unaware users that Hawlucha will pretty much always be helpless against. There's also the fact that Hawlucha has quite a bit of setup opportunity because of its defensive typing. I've noticed that not even Acrobatics Gligar is a solid counter since I was capable of beating one with Hawlucha as it switched into Swords Dance. I feel like the culmination of Hawlucha's exploitable checks + multitude of easy setup opportunities makes its job a little too easy. It's a shame too, it's just at the cusp of fitting into the tier imo, but it just needs one more really solid check that doesn't fit into the same mold as its other ones, and RU just doesn't have that (free Crobat).

Couple of things I want to mention outside of this: I don't think Hawlucha's brokenness has anything to do with Zoroark. Sure, it's easy to support it with Zoroark, but from using the combination, a couple of things stuck out. Some of Hawlucha's checks tend to be extremely solid and don't need to swap in right away (mainly Doublade), so it's very feasible for the Doublade user to scout for Zoroark before keeping it in. It's also really hard to sustain Illusion due to the fact that any prior damage on either of those two mons would give it away; it doesn't help either that Hawlucha actually wants to switch in and make use of its defensive typing to set up, so dedicating yourself to maintaining the ruse can sometimes be more trouble than it's worth. You can also produce similar results from supporting it with Zoroark that you can with just using Pursuit. Escavalier in particular is effective at scaring out or crippling a lot of Lucha's checks, but doesn't suddenly lose the ability to do so if it takes some prior damage. Zoroark does make a good partner, but it does require some effort to pull off and isn't particularly more consistent than one would think. The partner has to share exact hazard weaknesses or else any one of Spikes or Stealth Rock would give it away. Zoroark is incredible, but it seems clear to me that power creep caught up with it this gen because of how much more difficult it is to successfully pull off and maintain Illusion.

re Heracross: I really don't like it when people hyperbolize the effectiveness of any set other than Flame Orb. Choice Scarf sets do not "ravage" offensive teams. The two most prolific mons you find on offense, Doublade and Nidoqueen, are some of the most solid Scarf Heracross checks. Sure, it can be argued that Heracross can use its coverage moves to break through them, but the problem is that locking Heracross into Earthquake or Knock Off can be a terrible choice to make in an offense vs offense matchup. A lot of really dangerous Pokemon like Shell Smash Cloyster and DD Flygon can very easily setup on a Scarf Heracross locked into its coverage moves, and these are just some of the examples. Point being is that Choice Scarf Heracross's matchup vs offense isn't overbearing, so if you want to talk about what makes Heracross broken, which I don't think it is either way, you need to stick to discussing the Flame Orb set.

Now Flame Orb Heracross vs stall is a pretty tricky matchup, but a very doable one. The problem with Flame Orb Heracross is how vulnerable it is to residual damage, to the point where it has difficulty switching in on much of anything. Common stall mons like Umbreon and Registeel, which at first glance appear to be free switch-ins, can limit the amount of times Heracross can swap into them given how much residual damage it would have to sustain from taking a Foul Play or Seismic Toss. Combined with Stealth Rock and one turn of burn damage and Heracross will sustain a minimum of 53% damage just by trying to switch into Umbreon's Foul Play, and roughly 51% by trying to swap into Registeel's Seismic Toss. Point being is that just a single layer of hazards + one turn of burn damage + any attack can bring Heracross down to a considerably low level of health, and stall teams are best at using residual damage to bring down foes. In addition to this, there are Pokemon like Chesnaught capable of applying a lot of residual damage with Rocky Helmet + Spiky Shield, which can also take advantage of additional turns of burn damage. There are also several Pokemon that are capable of holding Heracross off on those teams, including Acrobatics Gligar, bulky Moltres with Speed, Counter Pyukumuku, Quagsire, and Comfey that can kill it, wear it down with Recover stall + Scald like Quagsire, or just force it out and make it take more residual damage. If that isn't sufficient, you can run something faster than 85 Speed, which is possible for stall. To put it simply, there's just far too many ways to play around Heracross to consider it broken imo.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Hawlucha by itself is already an incredibly strong stand-alone Pokemon. It has two of the strongest offensive STABs in the tier, has extremely useful resistances with which to setup, particularly on a variety of Choiced mons like Heracross, Pangoro, and Flygon, and the insurance granted by Sitrus Berry give it a multitude of setup opportunities and even allow it to possibly come out on top in some unfavorable matchups, such as against Gligar and Comfey. Moreover, even without the aid of Unburden, Hawlucha can still be EV'd to outrun mons including Shaymin, Mismagius, Virizion, Heliolisk, Espeon, and even up to the likes of Whimsicott and Salazzle. There's also the possibility that Hawlucha may do the complete opposite and go more or even full bulk to help take uninvested hits or priority (namely Ice Shard) better, especially since Unburden lets Hawlucha outspeed pretty much everything it wants to anyway. It's thanks to this auspicious Speed tier that gives Hawlucha more freedom in its investment, so you can't even be fully certain what can outspeed or KO Hawlucha.

Then there's the fact that Hawlucha's responses boil down to either priority (the Ice Shard users can struggle to outlast Hawlucha, and Comfey wants like Pixie Plate and the sacrifice of most of its bulk to be consistent at checking Hawlucha) or bulky mons which tend to share the same traits in get overloaded in checking other threats (Doublade, Fairy-types for the most part) / lured (especially Doublade who has no recovery, Dragons can flush out Fairies) / Pursuit trapped (Doublade and various Psychics) / broken down by a variety of the same wallbreakers (usually consisting of Dark-types and arguably some Fire- and Ground-types, but really any wallbreaker like Dragalge or whatever can help against Hawlucha's only real unfavorable team matchup in stall).

Currently, it just feels too easy to run Hawlucha in many different ways/teams that allow it to run train on pretty much every playstyle that isn't hard stall. Simply put, despite Hawlucha's linearity in having only one defined effective set, its sheer effectiveness combined with the constrained types of checks means that the Hawlucha player has a lot more room and versatility to adapt than the defenders do.
 
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Kushalos

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Hawluchas just too much rn doesnt have enough reliable checks. Personally id get rid of it.

Kinda on the fence with hera, since its so much easier to check. However, i think it pushes it too much vs defensive playstyles so leaning more towards ban.
 
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