Thanks stranger, you're too kind.
I seriously don't get what you said here, could you rephrase it ?
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np: ORAS UU Stage 7.3 - See No Evil | Baton Pass Suspect - see post #110
- Thread starter Sam
- Start date
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I think that this Baton Pass argument cannot be simply broken down to ban/no ban, frankly speaking. I understand that, inherently, the mechanic of passing boosts to Pokemon who shouldn't be getting boosts in the first place is an unfair mechanic, but I still think that Baton Pass' ability to allow a team to gain momentum is still very balanced and should still be preserved.
I personally feel that many of these calls for bans on Baton Pass stem from the frustration that the mechanic is still problematic even after several nerfs, which leads to complete disregard for complex banning of Baton Pass (which all past 3 nerfs to Baton Pass were). Banning Baton Pass would solve our current issue with Baton Passing teams, but also adversely affect Pokemon who use Baton Pass to gain momentum for a team through Dry Passing. For example, mildly defensive Pokemon such as Mawile have Baton Pass on their core Defensive kits because it gains momentum for a team through Dry Passing. There are probably more examples that I've probably missed, but to sum it up, banning Baton Pass adversely affects Pokemon that do not use it for boost passing.
I personally prefer that UU or Smogon as a whole ban the combination of Baton Pass and any type of boosts. The ban falls in line with the numerous complex bans Baton Pass has had and in turn preserves a balanced and very useful aspect of Baton Pass.
What we have to remember is that we can't treat the action of suspecting a non-Pokemon element of the game the same way we treat suspecting a Pokemon. What I've been reading in this thread is numerous people treating Baton Pass like an absolute element with no gray area.
The best analogy would be between people calling for a Sacred Fire ban and people calling for a Baton Pass ban. Because there is no element in Sacred Fire that policy-makers can control (i.e. nerfing burn rate from 50% to 0%), the options are either ban or no ban. Baton Pass, however, has elements that the player can control. In a completely "wi-fi" setting, both players can choose to not combine Baton Pass and boosting moves together and thus allows for the fair use of Baton Pass as a momentum-gaining element.
Past policy has been centered around preserving both broken and non-broken elements of Baton Pass for competitive play, hence why there are so many clauses such as "Team can only have one Baton Pass user" and "x cannot pass Speed boosts and other stats simultaneously" and so on. I think the ultimate way to nerf Baton Pass is to completely ban the broken element in the game: stat passing.
Please read my argument with an open mind and, more importantly, please respond respectfully. I try to respond to everyone's non-Firebot post in a respectful manner. The least one could do is to do the same for others who also post in the same manner. I'm not a big fan of mudslinging (which some threads usually devolve into at some point) because it muddles the argument and moves us away from the core issue. The more we respectfully respond to one another, the clearer each person's argument becomes, which goes a long way for helping a Council make a decision in the community's best interest.
I personally feel that many of these calls for bans on Baton Pass stem from the frustration that the mechanic is still problematic even after several nerfs, which leads to complete disregard for complex banning of Baton Pass (which all past 3 nerfs to Baton Pass were). Banning Baton Pass would solve our current issue with Baton Passing teams, but also adversely affect Pokemon who use Baton Pass to gain momentum for a team through Dry Passing. For example, mildly defensive Pokemon such as Mawile have Baton Pass on their core Defensive kits because it gains momentum for a team through Dry Passing. There are probably more examples that I've probably missed, but to sum it up, banning Baton Pass adversely affects Pokemon that do not use it for boost passing.
I personally prefer that UU or Smogon as a whole ban the combination of Baton Pass and any type of boosts. The ban falls in line with the numerous complex bans Baton Pass has had and in turn preserves a balanced and very useful aspect of Baton Pass.
What we have to remember is that we can't treat the action of suspecting a non-Pokemon element of the game the same way we treat suspecting a Pokemon. What I've been reading in this thread is numerous people treating Baton Pass like an absolute element with no gray area.
The best analogy would be between people calling for a Sacred Fire ban and people calling for a Baton Pass ban. Because there is no element in Sacred Fire that policy-makers can control (i.e. nerfing burn rate from 50% to 0%), the options are either ban or no ban. Baton Pass, however, has elements that the player can control. In a completely "wi-fi" setting, both players can choose to not combine Baton Pass and boosting moves together and thus allows for the fair use of Baton Pass as a momentum-gaining element.
Past policy has been centered around preserving both broken and non-broken elements of Baton Pass for competitive play, hence why there are so many clauses such as "Team can only have one Baton Pass user" and "x cannot pass Speed boosts and other stats simultaneously" and so on. I think the ultimate way to nerf Baton Pass is to completely ban the broken element in the game: stat passing.
Please read my argument with an open mind and, more importantly, please respond respectfully. I try to respond to everyone's non-Firebot post in a respectful manner. The least one could do is to do the same for others who also post in the same manner. I'm not a big fan of mudslinging (which some threads usually devolve into at some point) because it muddles the argument and moves us away from the core issue. The more we respectfully respond to one another, the clearer each person's argument becomes, which goes a long way for helping a Council make a decision in the community's best interest.
As others have said, if Celebi was the only offender and Baton Pass was otherwise fine, I would absolutely be in favor of suspecting Celebi rather than Baton Pass. Unfortunately, that's not really the case.
As I mentioned in my post above, we can't really ignore history here. This isn't a case of "Baton Pass is fine and only Celebi and maybe Combusken do broken things with it." This is a case of "Baton Pass is a really problematic move that has been plaguing competitive Pokemon for years, and despite the fact that we've nerfed it MANY times, it still keeps finding ways to fuck up our day." Since the beginning of XY, we have banned three Pokemon and one move from UU to try to curtail Baton Pass, and also instituted three increasingly arcane Baton Pass clauses, and despite that, it is still causing problems. The Baton Pass that exists currently ALREADY has a ton of restrictions on it that are in no way obvious or sensical to a new player picking up competitive 'mons for the first time. And every single time we've restricted Baton Pass or banned a Pokemon that has abused it, the most we've ended up with has been a reprieve of a few months until the next broken or uncompetitive BP strategy comes along.
Frankly, I'd much rather have one clean solution (the move Baton Pass illegal in UU) than have this awkward and complex set of bans and clauses (Scolipede, Celebi and Combusken are illegal in UU, Baton Pass is restricted to one Pokemon per team, a Pokemon with the move Baton Pass may not have a move, item or ability that boosts Speed and a move, item or ability that boosts another stat on the same set).
As I mentioned in my post above, we can't really ignore history here. This isn't a case of "Baton Pass is fine and only Celebi and maybe Combusken do broken things with it." This is a case of "Baton Pass is a really problematic move that has been plaguing competitive Pokemon for years, and despite the fact that we've nerfed it MANY times, it still keeps finding ways to fuck up our day." Since the beginning of XY, we have banned three Pokemon and one move from UU to try to curtail Baton Pass, and also instituted three increasingly arcane Baton Pass clauses, and despite that, it is still causing problems. The Baton Pass that exists currently ALREADY has a ton of restrictions on it that are in no way obvious or sensical to a new player picking up competitive 'mons for the first time. And every single time we've restricted Baton Pass or banned a Pokemon that has abused it, the most we've ended up with has been a reprieve of a few months until the next broken or uncompetitive BP strategy comes along.
Frankly, I'd much rather have one clean solution (the move Baton Pass illegal in UU) than have this awkward and complex set of bans and clauses (Scolipede, Celebi and Combusken are illegal in UU, Baton Pass is restricted to one Pokemon per team, a Pokemon with the move Baton Pass may not have a move, item or ability that boosts Speed and a move, item or ability that boosts another stat on the same set).
Although an outright ban would remove all of the messy clauses Baton Pass has accrued over the years, I think that an ultimate complex ban that I've suggested in my previous post would also undo many of the existing clauses.
- Baton Pass is restricted to one Pokemon per team: By banning Baton Passing + boosts, it wouldn't matter if you had six Baton Passers on your team because at that point, Baton Pass would be solely used for dry-passing and not be activating its broken element.
- a Pokemon with the move Baton Pass may not have a move, item or ability that boosts Speed and a move, item or ability that boosts another stat on the same set: This one is straightforward. You ban boosts + Baton Pass, all this fluff and complexity goes away too.
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Baton Pass was designed to pass boosts. Drypassing was not intended to be a tool, and banning boosts + BP is just exploiting the move to protect a small amount of things in a small way, those things will not be affected in viability much, and it's still a complex ban which Smogon constantly tries to avoid. Sure, banning boosts + BP is a solution but it's a dumb one that abuses the intent of the move. If any Baton Pass ban happens it should definitely be a cold turkey one, speed passing and one passer per team and no speed + another stat and whatever other nerfs we've done shouldn't have happened and in hindsight they're all done. It doesn't even matter if sub dry and wish passing are ever broken in the future, we shouldn't nerf a move against its original intent like that.
Banning BP + boosts is better than our current complex ban. Banning it outright is much better than that.
Banning BP + boosts is better than our current complex ban. Banning it outright is much better than that.
From what I understand, the only reason why you're against banning BP + boosts is because you're flat-out against complex banning. Furthermore, I'm not very sure as to where you are deriving the abuse of "the intent of the move". Both dry-passing and stat-passing are both intents for the move. The former allows you to gain momentum for your team a la U-Turn. The latter is the mechanic that we are currently debating on.
Finally, could you elaborate on your statement "drypassing was not intended to be a tool"? For all intents and purposes, if the mechanic exists in the game, then it's supposed to be used that way.
Baton Pass has two definitive mechanics: using your turn to switch to another Pokemon and to pass boosts to another Pokemon. The former is independent from the latter (i.e. you can't pass boosts if you can't switch out in the first place). If we can remove a broken element of a moves mechanics without harming the non-broken element, why not implement that? The argument that I've heard of so far is "...because Smogon doesn't like complex bans". Smogon's collective disapproval of complex bans does not mean that the complex ban should never be used. Furthermore, Generation VI has been nothing but complex bans to stop endless games and Baton Pass, so the argument against complex bans holds very little weight.
I think an apt metaphor would be an organ with a cancerous tumor growing on it. As a doctor, would you rather remove just the tumor from the organ or remove the organ completely from the body?
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Game freak designed Baton Pass as a way to pass boosts to a teammate. It was not meant to be used for "momentum" and saying the mechanic exists = it's meant to be used is completely wrong.
First of all "generation vi has been nothing but complex bans" lol. Your two 'examples' are endless battle, which isn't even a complex ban, it is designed to make sure battles aren't infinite, it's not competitive based, and Baton Pass itself. Posts like yours are why the awful slippery slope arguments become a thing, when you say stuff like "if we can nerf this to make it not broken, why not?" because it is defeating the point of banning stuff. "If we can remove a broken element of a Pokemon's mechanics without harming the non broken element, why not implement that?" By changing your comment it's adapted to removing speed boost from blaziken and protean from Greninja and all of the other slippery slope arguments people repeatedly use, we are removing the broken elements without harming the non broken elements so why not do it?
Hell, you're arguing that it keeps a good part of the tier in dry passing. Machoke was a good part of the pu tier and banning no guard or dynamicpunch on it would've been swell, but they couldn't and as a result they lost a major part of their tier. Machoke was far more relevant of a loss than dry passing would be, and dry Baton Pass isn't an organ, it's less important than a fingernail.
Then just ban Celebi and leave baton pass alone, its really the organ of many pokes , otherwise their viability goes down and there is less synergy in the team.
Your arguments on banning Hurricane and Rest are not applicable at all as those are clearly not broken moves, whereas in this test we are evaluating whether or not Baton Pass is a broken move. Like Hogg has stated twice now, the mechanic of passing stat boosts to things that "shouldn't" have the boosts (either by lack of access to the moves or inability to run the move/set up) is what is being argued as broken. Celebi is the best Baton Passer in the tier, but the argument for option A and B is that the mechanic of Gligar, Togetic, and Absol passing boosts to things that don't ordinarily have access to the boosts is broken as well. If Mew were to drop to OU, it would be able to utilize BP the same way as Celebi and would be unhealthy to the meta in the same way (and it could additionally choose to pass Speed and defenses as well). The reason that Machoke and not DynamicPunch was banned from PU is because DynamicPunch on its own was found to be a not-broken move - the 100% confusion is balanced by 50% accuracy. In this case, however, I think that it's passing boosts that is a problem. I also agree with what others have said regarding one decisive solution to Baton Pass instead of a convoluted attempt to solve the problem while still keeping potentially unbalanced elements available.
In my opinion, arguments for suspecting Celebi should focus on why Baton Pass is healthy/not broken AS WELL AS why Celebi is potentially broken.
To be clear, I'm voicing my own thoughts on the matter here, not the consensus of the UU council or anything. We will most likely hold our vote at the end of the week and into the weekend. In the meantime, please feel free to continue posting your thoughts, as most of what's been posted has been really good discussion.
I think you're exaggerating how many Pokemon need Baton Pass in order to remain viable. And to be honest, if their viability is reliant upon BP to begin with, their viability deserves to tank anyway.
I'm unsure as to what needs to be done in order to fix this issue; I've found myself seeing any of the possible changes working for the better. However, the more I think about it and read other's opinions, the more I lean towards thinking BP itself needs to be scrapped. The fact that BP has gone through three different complex bans over the duration of the generation, yet we're still having issues with it is what strikes me as the tipping point. Even if Celebi does end up being the one to catch that fade, or if BP does go through yet another complex ban, how long before something else comes up which leads to this conversation taking place again? How many heads need to be cut off the hydra before the whole thing just needs to be burned to the ground?
The only reason that we've comp-banned Baton Pass three times because each iteration tries to preserve the stat-boosting mechanic of Baton Pass without realizing the stat-passing aspect of Baton Pass is inherently broken.
Why preserve the shattered remnaints of BP at all if we restrict it so far from its intended purpose? The idea behind the previous bans has been that if we nerf it (something we dont do for anything else) we can still preserve something similar to it, without having to deal with the broken stuff. Keeping it around just as a momentum grabber seems like there is no real reason behind it other than "We cant ban a MOVE, how ridiculous is that". It's as if we kept OHKO moves, but only on 1st stage evolutions. Surely Spheal and Rhyhorn aren't broken with them! But it's a reasonless restriction that goes against our logic, which is why we didn't do that.
Scolipede may see a retest sometime down the line (as has been done in the past), but it's likely not a priority with SM weeks away.
Thanks for your productive post! That sure helped! :D
Not the issue at hand. An interesting discussion point should Baton Pass get banned, granted. For now, though, let's keep the discussion productive and on point.
Personally, after reading through this thread and having seen your views and discussion (thanks for that, btw!) I'll be voting to ban Baton Pass as a whole from UU. Change has to be made, complex banning Baton Pass will inevitably come back to bite us one way or another and I don't think Celebi is broken or 'too much for UU' individually, nor do I think it's the sole reason Baton Pass is causing the problems it currently is in UU. While I love using Baton Pass outside of passing stat boosts myself, banning it as a whole is by far the most logical and productive solution, in my opinion.
- UUTL
Ban Entei. :P
I'll be voting to ban Baton Pass + Stat Boosts. I don't think other variants of Baton Pass (drypassing, subpassing, wishpassing) are unhealthy in any way, and I have no desire to get rid of more than what I think is necessary. If Baton Pass is still a problem (which I don't think it will be) after this test, then I'll gladly revisit my opinion and change it to remove BP as a whole. As of right now, all that I see is that passing stat-boosts is an unhealthy element in our tier which is disproportionately affecting viability and team versatility while promoting skilless play. My decision reflects that. If Gen 7 causes us more Baton Pass problems, I'll gladly participate in addressing those problems at the appropriate time. I'd rather a slower process where we make decisions step-by-step rather than skipping steps. Something about getting full marks in math class.
#FreeVictini
#FreeVictini
We would never keep banning parts of a pokemon until they finally became balanced in the metagame, so why do we insist on going through the same process with Baton Pass? I know the instant reaction is "it's not a pokemon it's a move" but it does have it's parallels, consider something like Victini. We voted that it couldn't come back to UU, fair enough. Never was the logic seriously entertained that we could ban V-Create, or that if it was still broken that we would ban Blue Flare or Bolt Strike or so on. There's a reason for that, it entirely goes against the logic we base our tiering on. We do not ban elements of a pokemon or strategy to keep the parts we'd like because it's inconsistent from case to case and creates a convoluted banlist which is highly undesirable for a variety of reasons. This is exactly what has happened with Baton Pass in the past and will happen again if you vote to ban passing boosts.
I think there's too much emphasis on the current state of Baton Pass, rather than considering where we began and the steps we took to get here. Think of all of the pokemon that were unhealthy, broken, (insert smogon approved buzzword here) before any kind of Baton Pass ban occurred. Think of the pokemon that were one of those terms after the second iteration, or the third or whatever. All of these pokemon weren't individually culpable but one element tied them all together and made them capable of feats that forced the community to take action. The element responsible for causing this effect was correctly identified as Baton Pass, as without it the pokemon may have been strong threats but weren't broken or unhealthy or whatever(much like Celebi in mine and most people's minds) but it was dealt with irresponsibly because the hostile element was not removed and instead we went through like 3 bans trying to keep something in the metagame that time and time again came back to be an issue.
As a final point, once again people keep bringing up this argument that they're interested in preservation as if they're preserving some kind of metagame cornerstone and without it UU will be thrown into a murky abyss. You're preserving drypass Celebi, Specs/WishPass Sylveon(giving up cleric is cool!!!), Wishpass Umbreon and Vaporeon, Gligar/Absol/Mienshao/Espeon/Beedrill(who never used the move anyway and certainly wouldn't without boosts!), Durant(if you like giving up coverage I guess). That brings our total BP presence should the choice to be made to ban passing boosts to drypass Cele, Specs Sylv, a bad cleric set on Sylv, a meh set on a meh metagame pkmn in Umbreon, and an unseen pkmn outside of CBU in Vaporeon. Seriously, is the tradeoff of a complex ban worth it?
I think there's too much emphasis on the current state of Baton Pass, rather than considering where we began and the steps we took to get here. Think of all of the pokemon that were unhealthy, broken, (insert smogon approved buzzword here) before any kind of Baton Pass ban occurred. Think of the pokemon that were one of those terms after the second iteration, or the third or whatever. All of these pokemon weren't individually culpable but one element tied them all together and made them capable of feats that forced the community to take action. The element responsible for causing this effect was correctly identified as Baton Pass, as without it the pokemon may have been strong threats but weren't broken or unhealthy or whatever(much like Celebi in mine and most people's minds) but it was dealt with irresponsibly because the hostile element was not removed and instead we went through like 3 bans trying to keep something in the metagame that time and time again came back to be an issue.
As a final point, once again people keep bringing up this argument that they're interested in preservation as if they're preserving some kind of metagame cornerstone and without it UU will be thrown into a murky abyss. You're preserving drypass Celebi, Specs/WishPass Sylveon(giving up cleric is cool!!!), Wishpass Umbreon and Vaporeon, Gligar/Absol/Mienshao/Espeon/Beedrill(who never used the move anyway and certainly wouldn't without boosts!), Durant(if you like giving up coverage I guess). That brings our total BP presence should the choice to be made to ban passing boosts to drypass Cele, Specs Sylv, a bad cleric set on Sylv, a meh set on a meh metagame pkmn in Umbreon, and an unseen pkmn outside of CBU in Vaporeon. Seriously, is the tradeoff of a complex ban worth it?
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Everyone says they do not want a complex ban, but what I want to know is this: what exactly is wrong with a complex ban? What are the actual negative impacts of having a complex ban, especially if said complex ban overrules and effectively removes all existing complex bans currently attached to Baton Pass?
So far, there have been no arguments made as to why the complex ban is bad for this metagame. The only justification that is constantly repeated in this thread is our insistence to uphold an already increasingly inconsistent "status quo".
So far, there have been no arguments made as to why the complex ban is bad for this metagame. The only justification that is constantly repeated in this thread is our insistence to uphold an already increasingly inconsistent "status quo".
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To be fair to the pro-complex arguments, there actually is no more room to abuse Baton Pass if we DID go through with the complex ban, so fears of it still not being "enough" are unfounded. I'm not terribly torn either way, but I do appreciate the simplicity of banning BP outright as well as giving some weaker pokemon the leg-up that dry-passing and Wish-passing allows.
That being said, cross-tier playing is on the rise (at least it seems like it) so at this point I'd favor a blanket ban to encourage that. I'm not super sure how it would work in that case. Last I heard banning a Pokemon or item in a higher tier (in the case of Megas) bans it all the way through FU. Is that how a theoretical blanket ban will work?
That being said, cross-tier playing is on the rise (at least it seems like it) so at this point I'd favor a blanket ban to encourage that. I'm not super sure how it would work in that case. Last I heard banning a Pokemon or item in a higher tier (in the case of Megas) bans it all the way through FU. Is that how a theoretical blanket ban will work?
Theoretically, though there is precedence for breaking transitivity of bans: when NU banned Speed Boost + Baton Pass, PU chose not to implement that ban for their tier.
HypnoEmpire
Yokatta...
My opinion on this probably won't change anything at all but I just felt like sharing my opinion on Baton Pass.
So I really think that just banning Baton Pass + stat boosts is the best way to nerf Baton Pass. While I generally disagree with complex bans, I think an exception can be made for some moves if the ban simply removes the uncompetitive aspect of the move. If you're willing to argue that we should just completely ban Baton Pass with the idea that complex banning creates a slippery slope and sets precedents and etc., then why did doing this with sleep-inducing moves not set any precedents that I'm aware of? We could have very easily banned sleep-inducing moves but instead limited it and the sleep clause that limits sleep has been around for a while now. Unless you think Baton Pass in general is an inherently broken move or that other aspects outside of passing stats are broken, then I don't fully understand the benefits of blanket banning Baton Pass. Now of course I wouldn't consider limitations such as preventing only certain Pokemon from using a move such as OHKO moves; that just sounds ridiculous. However, I think limiting how a certain move can be allowed to function is acceptable.
At the same time, is Baton Pass really broken on anything else in UU? I don't think so. Banning a move just because one Pokemon uses it to ban-worthy levels isn't really a call for banning the move itself imo, especially when several Pokemon actually get healthy, competitive value out of the move. We don't see moves like Spikes (Froslass in RU, Deoxys forms in OU) or abilities like Protean (Greninja in OU) getting banned when a broken Pokemon uses them. The way I see it, I don't think a ban or limit to Baton Pass in UU is the right decision to make unless an excellent case is made that Combusken or Gligar or w/e is also broken with Baton Pass, in which case it should definitely be considered.
Banning or limiting Baton Pass should be left to Ubers or OU so the change can be implemented across every tier, not just UU and /potentially/ other tiers below. I think Baton Pass is an issue that needs to be addressed in every tier.
Just ban the Pokemon, don't ban the move(s) that it uses that make it broken. Just my two cents.
So I really think that just banning Baton Pass + stat boosts is the best way to nerf Baton Pass. While I generally disagree with complex bans, I think an exception can be made for some moves if the ban simply removes the uncompetitive aspect of the move. If you're willing to argue that we should just completely ban Baton Pass with the idea that complex banning creates a slippery slope and sets precedents and etc., then why did doing this with sleep-inducing moves not set any precedents that I'm aware of? We could have very easily banned sleep-inducing moves but instead limited it and the sleep clause that limits sleep has been around for a while now. Unless you think Baton Pass in general is an inherently broken move or that other aspects outside of passing stats are broken, then I don't fully understand the benefits of blanket banning Baton Pass. Now of course I wouldn't consider limitations such as preventing only certain Pokemon from using a move such as OHKO moves; that just sounds ridiculous. However, I think limiting how a certain move can be allowed to function is acceptable.
At the same time, is Baton Pass really broken on anything else in UU? I don't think so. Banning a move just because one Pokemon uses it to ban-worthy levels isn't really a call for banning the move itself imo, especially when several Pokemon actually get healthy, competitive value out of the move. We don't see moves like Spikes (Froslass in RU, Deoxys forms in OU) or abilities like Protean (Greninja in OU) getting banned when a broken Pokemon uses them. The way I see it, I don't think a ban or limit to Baton Pass in UU is the right decision to make unless an excellent case is made that Combusken or Gligar or w/e is also broken with Baton Pass, in which case it should definitely be considered.
Banning or limiting Baton Pass should be left to Ubers or OU so the change can be implemented across every tier, not just UU and /potentially/ other tiers below. I think Baton Pass is an issue that needs to be addressed in every tier.
Just ban the Pokemon, don't ban the move(s) that it uses that make it broken. Just my two cents.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Ya I also feel that Klefki could possibly be a healthy addition to the meta, and I feel that a possible re-suspect to it maybe warranted alongside Scolipede if Baton Pass does gets banned/nerfed. Klefki is a great hazard setter for offensive teams which I feel will help deal with Hydreigon a bit more easily on said teams (due to offense having like no answers to Hydra atm besides maybe Specs Sylveon). I think the main reason it was concluded to be broken initially was that it was too good as a hazard setter with its phenomenal typing, but I feel the current UU meta could adapt to this and having another Fairy/Celebi check will be really useful right now :0
Scolipede loses its main niche without speed passing imo, although ik it had very good Swords Dance sets and it was very capable as a setup sweeper on its own right, but I also feel that its nothing too unstoppable especially with things like Swampert, Tentacreul, and Gligar running rampant through the meta rn.
Others thoughts?
Scolipede loses its main niche without speed passing imo, although ik it had very good Swords Dance sets and it was very capable as a setup sweeper on its own right, but I also feel that its nothing too unstoppable especially with things like Swampert, Tentacreul, and Gligar running rampant through the meta rn.
Others thoughts?
I have been keeping an eye on this topic, saw a lot of good points on banning BPass as a whole as well as only removing stat boosts + passing, I'll try to not repeat (too much) stuff that has already been said and add my two cents.
In general, I think that banning stat boosting while preserving dry/sub/Wish passing would be a good start. However, is it really worth going for a complex ban at that point? The few 'mons that would benefit from such a thing that I can think of from that would be the Eevolutions, Durant, Shedinja and the main offender itself, Celebi.
On Durant it can act as a way to grab momentum, sure, but it can already hit most of his switch-ins pretty damn hard already80% of the time with coverage moves, and the HC set wouldn't be able to pass boosts regardless.
On Umbreon/Vaporeon (sigh), usually Heal Bell is chosen over BPass. Granted, it is an option but there a somewhat limited amount of situations where it would be better over a different move.
Sylveon also gets access to Wish-passing, but drypassing on offensive sets is in my opinion the biggest thing about the whole argument. Sylveon hits like a truck, and has coverage to handle its switch-ins AND a somewhat surefire way to either keep momentum or do solid damage in almost every single situation against most teams.
Shedinja is already a pretty niche Pokémon as it is, losing BPass is another hit but ohwell.
Celebi would become a lot more manageable regardless, but keeping bpass means it has a potential way to get away from stuff without having to risk a more dangerous prediction, as well as the possibility of sub-passing. Again, sounds pretty limited.
In general, BPass makes stronger Pokémons even better by adding more safe options while being for the most part a secondary option on stuff that doesn't see as much use, and in both cases there would still be valid alternatives. Banning the move completely seems easier and would be my choice, since it also prevents stupid Ingrain-pass shenanigans that might for some reasons pop up.
tl;dr banning bpass+boost is a good choice, getting rid of bpass just seems simpler since the stuff that uses it has valid options regardless
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on an unrelated topic, there is one reason why i think klefki is a terrible idea
In Gen 6, Klefki can learn Thunder Wave from:
In general, I think that banning stat boosting while preserving dry/sub/Wish passing would be a good start. However, is it really worth going for a complex ban at that point? The few 'mons that would benefit from such a thing that I can think of from that would be the Eevolutions, Durant, Shedinja and the main offender itself, Celebi.
On Durant it can act as a way to grab momentum, sure, but it can already hit most of his switch-ins pretty damn hard already
On Umbreon/Vaporeon (sigh), usually Heal Bell is chosen over BPass. Granted, it is an option but there a somewhat limited amount of situations where it would be better over a different move.
Sylveon also gets access to Wish-passing, but drypassing on offensive sets is in my opinion the biggest thing about the whole argument. Sylveon hits like a truck, and has coverage to handle its switch-ins AND a somewhat surefire way to either keep momentum or do solid damage in almost every single situation against most teams.
Shedinja is already a pretty niche Pokémon as it is, losing BPass is another hit but ohwell.
Celebi would become a lot more manageable regardless, but keeping bpass means it has a potential way to get away from stuff without having to risk a more dangerous prediction, as well as the possibility of sub-passing. Again, sounds pretty limited.
In general, BPass makes stronger Pokémons even better by adding more safe options while being for the most part a secondary option on stuff that doesn't see as much use, and in both cases there would still be valid alternatives. Banning the move completely seems easier and would be my choice, since it also prevents stupid Ingrain-pass shenanigans that might for some reasons pop up.
tl;dr banning bpass+boost is a good choice, getting rid of bpass just seems simpler since the stuff that uses it has valid options regardless
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on an unrelated topic, there is one reason why i think klefki is a terrible idea
In Gen 6, Klefki can learn Thunder Wave from:
- anywhere (all moves are level-up/tutor/TM/HM in gen 6)
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The solution to Klefki being balanced is to ban Twave, obviously :)
Hell let's throw in scald too, pls
To make this post worthwhile, I'll throw in some thoughts about BP. Dry passing is not some super important mechanic, it is just a way for certain pokemon to gain momentum, and it's not even worth keeping it when baton bass has been such a frustrating issue in ORAS. I'm not even opposed to complex bans necessarily, but I think they should only be used when necessary, like when drizzle + swift swim was banned. Bp getting axed is just going to help the tier, we really do not need to ban boosts + bp just to keep dry passing, which like cappino said is only really useful on Sylveon and Celebi and trivial in the grand scheme of things (they're not going to be useless without it).
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