np: Doubles OU Stage 5 - Little Bunny Foo Foo | Gravity + Sleep Ban will Allow Spore!

Since there isn't a generic meta thread I guess this is the best place to bring it up. I've been saying for a while (very casually/quietly since I have met few who agree with this), but I think Follow Me in general is a unhealthy move in a competitive format. There are so many different combinations of Follow Me User + Setup Sweeper that could break a meta, and it's a big reason that building a "perfect team that checks every possible threat" is an impossible goal. Gamefreak gave us a counter to Rage Powder with Safety Goggles, but the only real "answer" to Follow Me + Every Setup Sweeper is to play cautiously and really focus on your positioning throughout the match. The reason this came to mind was that many of the pro-ban posts in this thread stated AzuRachi is broken because it forces the user to play cautiously/position to an extreme degree.

I believe any competitive game should have a hard-answer to every move, and even if your team is prepared for AzuRachi, I doubt it's prepared for every possible Follow Me combination. Even if Rachi or Azumarill got banned, I'm 100% sure something new would take its place. Again I've dealt with Follow Me for the like 2 years I've been in Doubles, but I think if the community wanted a more competitive and less matchup-reliant meta, banning follow me would be a good option to look into.
 
Figured I'd introduce myself here before we start voting since I'm a relative unknown around these parts and this is my first actual suspect test.

I started playing in this format because I, like many others, found VGC 2016 to be tiresome. Being able to use mythics and a more generous clock is really attractive. I've always been a sucker for a good Follow Me user and since Salamence was already banned in the format I figured out quickly that an AzuRachi core would be the next best thing.

Frankly, I wish the suspect test was taken more seriously by people on the ladder. Maybe I just got paired down a lot but it's been my experience in other formats that 300 points up is usually the bottleneck for luck-based shenanigans and that was not the case here. But hey what can you do. Free wins.

In the more competitive games I played, Azumarill didn't always play the same role. It does take well to teams that are built around it but the other members of its established core are actually pretty great in a vacuum (Landorus-T is good on most teams, as is Kang). If it was apparent that I was getting hard countered then I would usually just preserve it for late game cleanup sans Belly Drum, which I could have done with stuff like Bisharp and Talonflame instead.

The reason I'm leaning towards voting ban though, is that in the vast majority of games, playing the Azumarill team stops being interactive and starts being Aqua Jet. There are definitely players that have gotten really good at beating it (applause to the Mega Gengar/Sub CM Sylveon folks), but stuff that is really obviously intended to counter it like Zapdos Sun doesn't seem to slow the bunny down fast enough unless it gets a Heat Wave burn.

The odds that we'll get a powerhouse in Generation 7 that Jirachi patches up perfectly is pretty high. I think it should be resuspected, but that doesn't make the zoomer less broken or invalidate its removal from the format.
 

Level 51

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It's that time of suspect again! I assume voting will be going up soon, so now seems like a good time for this.

PSA: We're out to create a balanced format, so if you have valid and informed reasons as to why banning or not banning Azumarill would help towards this goal, then by all means please feel free to vote that way. However, if you are merely voting to rack up numbers towards TC or if you feel that you are not adequately informed about the state of the format, please do consider using the Abstain option - it exists for a reason. There's no need to ruin a perfectly good suspect test for reasons such as 'I enjoy using Azumarill xd' / 'it's not broken if everyone gets to use it' / 'if you have difficulties against x then you're a bad player' etc.

tl;dr: Do not be opposed to use the Abstain option if you do not have a proper opinion on Azumarill. It will still count for TC.
 

TheFourthChaser

#TimeForChange
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Or, or, hear me out instead of retesting Skymin we abolish the ability for players to have a say in suspect tests because if that many people want it to return there is a clear problem? The latter seems way better than the former

I'll post more when I'm at home but I actually think Lolk's thoughts on Follow Me are somewhat accurate in that it may be overpowered. Not that I would necessarily ban it but it's an interesting discussion.
 

Fran

formerly Frania
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could we talk about potencial team lock for a moment. i feel like the ability to swap sets/teams during a bo3 set rewards rather absurd teambuilding decisions than anything. running a silly lando lure will gove you a huge advantige to the point even if it makes your team way worse vs other mons, your opponent will have to suffer a huge loss so probably hes not even going to benifit much from you making your team way shittier just to get that early game advantige. doubles is a very offensive meta where i feel like huge unexpected losses in the early game will be more game deciding than in other tiers. from mine own experience i lost a game partly due my opponent running protect life orb landorus + hp ice thundy that surprized my lando turn 1 (i tried to uturn on his landorus, feel into protect, then thundy ohko me with hidden power). not knowing the rest of his team you might think i made a silly played and i got punished for it. lo lando is a viable set, so is hp ice thundy. my only problem with that is i assumed (since our game was quite far into the dou open) he should be running an choice scarf or assault vest landorus due to his horrific diancie talonflame match up. but he didnt. he said fuck that, no one is going to risk have my lando beeing the correct set while im going to benifit from the life orb/ability to protect. and this is my main concern. should we really be scouting every game for each possiblity of our opponent running some incoventional lures? obv not, no one can afford to play so safe it will be simply giving out an advantige to every of our opponents that decides to not go for the absurd scouting. so what do we do. we gotta hope our opp is running a more consistant set, drop some games, but w/e not everyone is crazy enough to run bad sets that are meant to work one time or maybe not and then loose you that game all depending on the team match up. so why do we do this to ourselves? in theory vs lando thund both mons can learn protect and hp ice that kos my landorus does it mean i have to hard switch out everytime im in position i cant risk loosing my game like that? do i need to give my opp even a bigger advantige just bcos im down a game? i feel like we could try out team lock at least in the more important tournament games as it really doesnt charm anyone but it keeps us safe from match up based inconsistent lures that reward silly counterteaming or even just random bad teambuilding decision rather then solid competitive play.
 
we tried a teamlock minitour once and it was kinda clear that teamlock in doubles isn't a great idea. if you have a bad matchup then you will most likely lose the whole set (very rough example: sand vs sun). it's different in vgc where you only bring 4 mons to each game and can change up your 4 mon combination between games based on your opps team. in doubles you don't have the luxury of being able to bring 2 megas or even switch up the mons youre bringing, making it incredibly difficult to outplay matchup disadvantages
 
Was an interesting result to wake up to, it seems like the reason for the lack of success was a split vote between those happy to just get rid of Azumarill, and those that wanted some sort of complex ban, ie bdrum / no rachi Azu. I'd argue this would make up 60-70% of the field with a further 30-40% believing the meta rn is ok.

I think this sort of split in general probably requires discussion, I also think if someone has the time correlating data with the Jirachi test on people's votes would be interesting. Ie who voted ban 2x or more importantly, who voted ban in one but not the other.
 

emma

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Was an interesting result to wake up to, it seems like the reason for the lack of success was a split vote between those happy to just get rid of Azumarill, and those that wanted some sort of complex ban, ie bdrum / no rachi Azu. I'd argue this would make up 60-70% of the field with a further 30-40% believing the meta rn is ok.

I think this sort of split in general probably requires discussion, I also think if someone has the time correlating data with the Jirachi test on people's votes would be interesting. Ie who voted ban 2x or more importantly, who voted ban in one but not the other.
Already started !
I'll have a spreadsheet on everyone who voted in the Jirachi and Azumarill votes and compare what they voted for each one.
Example: GreenGogoatttt/NoBan/Ban but with a key and better formatting and stuff
 
Idk about you guys but seeing how divided everyone is on our tiering, "is Azumarill broken, is Jirachi the real issue, is Mega Mence balanced without Jirachi, should Skymin be re-tested?" it's unsettling to say the least. I mean just look at the voting for Azumarill(39-48) that's pretty much even and it's not a group of more experienced players voting for one thing and a group of newer players voting for another it's a mix of both. To remedy this I think we should have frequent tours(or 2-3 weeks on the ladder) where there are complex bans like "Salamencite is allowed but no Jirachi or simple ones like no Azumarill, Skymin is allowed, no Jirachi etc." to see how the tier is affected with or without some of these controversial mons. This won't be like the flashback tour as in not everything that is banned will be allowed all at once and mons that are currently allowed will not be. I don't want this to drag on either(if we even end up doing it lul) it could be like Smogon Tour where every weekend there is a live tournament Friday, Saturday, and Sunday or just on one of those days.

When S/M comes out everything that is now banned will be dropped and decided upon(or at least i think that's how it works) so having similar opinions from a majority of people(the top players hopefully)on Azu, Mence, Jirachi etc. will give us a better idea on what we should prioritize testing or re-testing after we deal with the insanely new broken shit nintendo gives us. I know some of the new stuff might balance or break the current mons in question so the conclusions we draw from this won't be 100% applicable to Gen 7 but having a consensus can't hurt for future tiering and can be used to make Gen 6 doubles better for DPL and other possible past gen tours that we might have.

Thoughts? Also I was thinking about the teamlock thing the other day(totally forgot about we had a tour with that awhile ago haha) but I think that should be experimented with again or at least talked about.
 

Fran

formerly Frania
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I feel like in this format where you have 20 mons in tier 1-1,5 that most teams consist of you shouls be able to prepare for all of the revelant threats and if youre not its kinda your fault. DOU is the least match up based tier on whole smogon, every well build sun team should be prepared to deal with tyranitar-excadrill, the same way you put diancie checks on a kang team. if youre not able to build a team like that just look up the samples.
 

DragonWhale

It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
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That's mainly just the nature of doubles giving both players a lot more options every turn and the prevalence of protect (which has the potential to give a pokemon a free turn), so players do have more potential outs from a difficult matchup compared to singles. That's not to say matchup doesn't exist in doubles though. There are still games where one side is in trouble at team preview and requires a lot more correct predictions to be made than the other side to win. Using your sun vs sand example, even if the sun team does run options against sand it's a weak argument to only consider the sun team playing around matchup using said options, as the sand team user should/would be equally capable of not letting you use these options freely.
 
I feel like in this format where you have 20 mons in tier 1-1,5 that most teams consist of you shouls be able to prepare for all of the revelant threats and if youre not its kinda your fault. DOU is the least match up based tier on whole smogon, every well build sun team should be prepared to deal with tyranitar-excadrill, the same way you put diancie checks on a kang team. if youre not able to build a team like that just look up the samples.
what if you wrote some of the samples and still cant prepare for all of the relevant threats ._.
 

Platinum God n1n1

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When S/M comes out everything that is now banned will be dropped and decided upon(or at least i think that's how it works) so having similar opinions from a majority of people(the top players hopefully)on Azu, Mence, Jirachi etc. will give us a better idea on what we should prioritize testing or re-testing after we deal with the insanely new broken shit nintendo gives us. I know some of the new stuff might balance or break the current mons in question so the conclusions we draw from this won't be 100% applicable to Gen 7 but having a consensus can't hurt for future tiering and can be used to make Gen 6 doubles better for DPL and other possible past gen tours that we might have.
This.
Imo unban skymin and Mega salamence at the start. And have no suspect for at least a full seasonal or 2.
That way people will have time to figure out the dynamics that the new generation brings.
 

talkingtree

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I like deo's idea in theory, the trouble is that only a week or two isn't nearly enough to figure out whether the modified meta is balanced. Everyone's going to want to try out the brand new mon, so it will show far more usage, as will the things that beat it. In Flashback, Milotic seems to be one of the very most common Pokemon and Hail is uber popular, but something tells me that in a Mence + Skymin meta that wouldn't continue to be the case. It doesn't really reflect how a meta that is given time to stabilize would behave.

My best guess as to the reason that we can't all agree on what to do tiering wise is that this meta is quite balanced and in a really good state right now, so any other changes we make are going to be nitpicky. There are no huge, obviously broken threats, so it comes down to where each person draws the line for brokenness. Personally I know that my line is way farther out than average, seeing as the only suspect/ban I've been in favor of up until this point was Swagger.

It all comes down to one question. Would you rather remove a borderline broken threat towards the end of a metagame without full knowledge of potential repercussions or leave it to stick around in the hopes of preserving a decent meta that's had time to stabilize, with the risk of leaving behind a slightly unbalanced Pokemon? I don't think there's any right answer, but it's interesting to think about.
 

emma

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Was an interesting result to wake up to, it seems like the reason for the lack of success was a split vote between those happy to just get rid of Azumarill, and those that wanted some sort of complex ban, ie bdrum / no rachi Azu. I'd argue this would make up 60-70% of the field with a further 30-40% believing the meta rn is ok.

I think this sort of split in general probably requires discussion, I also think if someone has the time correlating data with the Jirachi test on people's votes would be interesting. Ie who voted ban 2x or more importantly, who voted ban in one but not the other.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16q83PDkT2fQejrtCXMmYufvr6QZKzHS9S_mnQxH9IPo/edit?usp=sharing here ya go

This is completely unfinished but the raw data is there. I will finish making it look organized and pretty tomorrow, I was busy today. I'll finish putting it in alphabetical order and make some seperate tabs for A-E, F-L, etc, (Just rough estimated). I will also have all SPL 7 players highlighted and make more tabs for people who voted ban-ban, no bn-no-ban, etc. I'll make another post/update this one when its done ^_^

E: Tell me if it sucks so I can fix this, I should be right!
 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16q83PDkT2fQejrtCXMmYufvr6QZKzHS9S_mnQxH9IPo/edit?usp=sharing here ya go

This is completely unfinished but the raw data is there. I will finish making it look organized and pretty tomorrow, I was busy today. I'll finish putting it in alphabetical order and make some seperate tabs for A-E, F-L, etc, (Just rough estimated). I will also have all SPL 7 players highlighted and make more tabs for people who voted ban-ban, no bn-no-ban, etc. I'll make another post/update this one when its done ^_^

E: Tell me if it sucks so I can fix this, I should be right!
Maybe make it so that it only shows people who voted in both? I think that's what it's really meant to show, is it not?
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
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It all comes down to one question. Would you rather remove a borderline broken threat towards the end of a metagame without full knowledge of potential repercussions or leave it to stick around in the hopes of preserving a decent meta that's had time to stabilize, with the risk of leaving behind a slightly unbalanced Pokemon? I don't think there's any right answer, but it's interesting to think about.
no one will give a fuck about oras in 2 months or so. It's not worth completely changing the meta of oras to better fit the userbase in the remaining time where it'll have minimal/no impact whatsoever for official tournaments (it'll have no effect on any important tournament which are spl/grand slam). It's better off just leaving it since there's no real benefit to fixing these so called problems. That and you'll never get SS to agree to a near end of a generation (oras in this case) suspect after the fiasco that was the shadow tag suspect held by ubers at the end of xy lel since the negative PR was uhhhhh the worst we've seen in years. That and in some random OM tours/old gens (whatever term you prefer) that will involve oras dou/duu after sun moon's release, it'll be a huge pain in the ass to build new teams for oras dou because our old ones become non optimal especially seeing as how it'll be a niche metagame.

For sake of argument let's use some simple timeframe. Consecutive suspects are bad and never used because metagames need time to stabilize after a previous suspect (regardless of a ban or not) so that will be what 2-4 week period. Then we'll need to have a suspect ladder for 2 weeks or so and then lastly voting will take place for another 3-4 days. That will take at the very minimum a month (2 weeks is not enough time for any metagame to settle just fyi) and by then we'll be in fucking mid/end of october so any result of another suspect will be essentially at sun moon release and pretty pointless.

From a historical standpoint. why the fuck would you want people to see a metagame that isn't even an accurate representation of how the metagame was back then since we had a end of gen ban.
 

Isa

I've never felt better in my life
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the fiasco that was the shadow tag suspect held by ubers at the end of xy lel since the negative PR was uhhhhh the worst we've seen in years.
while end of gen suspects may be bad due to unpredictability with regards to what'll come (i somehow doubt stag was the only suspect around this period of time) you and i both know that this suspect test was flamed for fifteen different reasons that all were more important than this


from my pov i wouldn't object to a suspect that's located two months before a tier "closes", but coming straight from another suspect test makes it a different matter. it realistically takes at least a few weeks to discuss what needs to be suspected, accepted and started, and having suspects carry over into a new generation would probably be very much not good. so in the end, i dont see another suspect happening. which is probably fine! if oras continues to see play after the release of sumo, you can do suspects in due time during the next generation (see: bw lc suspect stuff). from my casual observations i dont think the metagame is unhealthy to the point that a suspect is disastrously needed, so yeah youll be fine imo.
 

Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
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Let's talk about the suspecting process

So I know the council is probably talking about possible fixes/changes to the suspect method and there's no easy solution but here's my take

The core issues we face are...
  • One: that a large number of players unfamiliar to the meta play lots of games of Dou on ladder (a good thing) but learn little to nothing about the meta, leading to uninformed voters.
  • Two: that there are a few suspects that are simultaneously vying for attention, leading pretty much each player to have some image of the "perfect dou meta". Since DOU inevitably has a heavy focus on team synergies, these suspects interrelate and affect each other, but we can only suspect threat at a time
    • As an example, some people believe ban Jirachi+unban Salamence-Mega is a perfect meta, but they wouldn't ban Jirachi unless they knew Salamence was getting banned
  • Three: that there is a serious lack of any discussion in the suspect thread. We see lots of players posting their thought processes with their vote instead of in this thread which is a problem... in particular lots of good players are just not posting anything
First, let me go over other people's solutions and why I think they won't work.

1) Lots of tours everywhere: I agree with tree here and have to say that I don't think you can get a feel for a meta/develop it with live tours
2) Stats analysis? Don't think this is relevant information and it has literally no bearing on the suspect process and tells you nothing at the same time. You can't extrapolate any kind of conclusion from this data, so it's worthless.

Solutions?

-Get rid of TC. The badge is literally "You threw your 2 cents in 8 times, congratulations!" Quite frankly, it encourages shitters and adds motivations other than caring about the actual outcome of the vote, which should be the most important motivation in our eyes. Like, it's just such a dumb badge compared to the other ones. Every single other badge is "you were a good member of the community and did a lot for Smogon" whereas TC is like "congrats you did a lot of laddering at the right times". The fuck? Why does badge exist and can we at least make it so that you don't get TC points for doubles suspects?
-Secondly, we could take all the people that make ladder reqs and then throw them into a giant round robin tour/their own ladder, and say ~top 50% get to actually vote, but anyone who made it past the suspect ladder gets their "congrats you threw in your 2 cents" badge points. Essentially this would be a pseudo-filtration method for ensuring that voters have to be good (which note, isn't exactly the same thing as being knowledgeable on the meta but has a pretty strong correlation) in order to vote. Obviously anyone who just wants to make it to 16 cents contributed can just opt out of this second phase and still be happy. Essentially, it ensures you have to care and also be good in order to actually vote, but doesn't hurt the TC badging process.

So these are both potential solutions to issue #1

I don't really have anything for you on issue #2 but I would say polling people or trying to get a feel for people's opinions through polling could help guide future suspect directions. Obviously council is pretty representative of the people's opinions already so this probably isn't necessary but it'd be neato.

As for #3 all I can really say is that

Every time a suspect finishes, the people who didn't get what they want are always up in arms and grabbing pitchforks and lowkey saying the other side was full of singles-playing shitters who don't know anything or were being stupid but like

Quit fucking trying to make that claim: first of all it doesn't help anything, and second of all, realistically, your only way of influencing other peoples' vote is to post and convince people. Idk why you're complaining about the results of a suspect if you're not going to go out of your way to actively engage in the public forum that exists literally for discussion. In particular I really wish (and was talking about this with Major⋈man) that council members would post more. So far I don't think I've seen a single council member post anything in this thread that wasn't some kind of official clarification other than Dawg, and that's a big problem. Why are our top players just not saying anything during suspects? This is insane and needs to change. Discussion doesn't develop without communication.
As for moving forward:

I don't think a Jirachi suspect is anywhere near necessary. I stand by my points made that Azu+Rachi isn't a broken core that I've made in both suspect threads, but also I'd like to point out that Jirachi is one of the best Mence checks in the game so trying to say that banning Jirachi --> we get to unban Salamence isn't necessarily true. The other day I beat Mence+Jirachi with my Garde+Jirachi, by using Jirachi's capabilities to function as a great Sally check. I also think Isa put it perfectly and also it was literally suspected ~2 months ago, if you changed your opinion since that's not really our job to facilitate another vote just for you.
tl;dr tc is stupid, good players need to post more, Jirachi suspect = redundant+not necessary
 
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Speaking from the experience of being a shitter and going to other tiers and voting, usually I could get a feel for whether or not something should be banned. If not I'd ask someone I knew who was experienced enough to make a decision. But honestly the TC hunters aren't that much of a problem. In a perfect world we have every voter be perfectly informed, but then we'd still be divided because that's how this community is. God we're still a little divided on Mence like nearly 2 years later. I think a big "problem" is just stubbornness and our first instinct to just be blame the outsiders for results we don't like. Yes I would still like a reform on the suspect process because honestly you learn nothing on the ladder, but I don't think we should be openly discouraging players from trying our tier.
 

Idyll

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The Doubles OU Council has decided to vote on Azumarill + Jirachi and freeing Spore from the GravSleep complex ban.

* * *

For freeing Spore from the GravSleep complex ban, we did one vote.
A. Allow Spore + Gravity
B. Maintain current Gravity + Sleep ban

Results: 5 Allow Spore + Gravity, 1 Abstain
1. kamikaze: Abstain
2. Memoric: Allow Spore + Gravity
3. Dawg: Allow Spore + Gravity
4. Level 51: Allow Spore + Gravity
5. SamVGC: Allow Spore + Gravity
6. shaian: Allow Spore + Gravity

Thus, Spore will be freed from the GravSleep complex ban once we settle on an appropriate revision on the clause. Expect it to be dealt with within the following days.

* * *

The vote on Azumarill + Jirachi was done in 2 phases.

Phase 1:
A. Restrict Azumarill + Jirachi
B. Leave Azumarill + Jirachi

If there is majority vote on Option A, we will move on to Phase 2

Phase 2:
1. Ban Azumarill
2. Ban Jirachi

Phase 1 Results: 5 Restrict Azumarill + Jirachi, 1 Leave Azumarill + Jirachi
1. kamikaze: Leave Azumarill + Jirachi
2. Memoric: Restrict Azumarill + Jirachi
3. Dawg: Restrict Azumarill + Jirachi
4. Level 51: Restrict Azumarill + Jirachi
5. SamVGC: Restrict Azumarill + Jirachi
6. shaian: Restrict Azumarill + Jirachi

Thus, we moved to Phase 2

Phase 2 Results: 2 Ban Azumarill, 4 Ban Jirachi
1. kamikaze: Ban Azumarill
2. Memoric: Ban Jirachi
3. Dawg: Ban Jirachi
4. Level 51: Ban Jirachi
5. SamVGC: Ban Jirachi
6. shaian: Ban Azumarill

Thus, Jirachi will be banned from Doubles OU and will no longer be legal in the ladder and future tournaments.
 

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