np: Doubles OU Stage 4 - Infamous | Jirachi (Stays in DOU) | Swagger is Banned

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Haruno

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So there's a lot of fantastic comparisons made to VGC 15 in terms of Azumarill but I think a vital element that is missing is the prominence of Talonflame being a huge stop/revenge killer of Azumarill. Being able to outpriority/use Quick Guard, and also slay Jirachi is a pretty big deal in terms of Azumarill's strength. While Azumarill is strong, it's not suspect worthy in any sense. It's got huge difficulties in setting up and is heavily deterred by Talonflame, as well as stuff like Char Y innately murdering Jirachi and halving AJet.

As for some comments on the suspecting process, I know there's some sentiment of too many randoms, make sure the voters are long time members of the community or more restrictive stuff to prevent random new people from influencing the vote but I'm definitely against that. 2600 COIL is fair enough, players essentially have to get a 3:1 win rate out of 60 games, which is difficult if you're completely new to the tier. In addition, I would caution against any kind of subjective conditions because those are dangerous. An easy solution would be to just take away TC points because then you avoid the riffraff who come over just for a suspect, but you can still announce the suspect and attract new players. When I laddered during LC suspect I wasn't like "yo lemme get this TC badge" but I was like "oh hey suspect huh I did have a team I saved from madoka's spl run let's hop on the ladder!".

Please re-suspect Skymin. The vote was literally rigged. DOU should be outraged more than we actually are about the Skymin suspect because it was a goddamn vote just like any other and suddenly on the day before the goddamn ballots were counted it was suddenly announced that we would have a 50% barrier to ban. What the literal fuck. In what goddamn vote would this actually slide? Could you imagine the election system just spontaneouly changing the day before the goddamn vote and then welp Kanye is president. Complete utter bullshit. Resuspect Skymin.

As an additional note Skymin is a huge Azumarill check that would probably resolve concerns about Azu being OP since it shreds it and can 1v1 post-setup Azumarill. Azumarill was like this cute thing that Haruno did all the time but wasn't a big meta threat until we banned Skymin.
I like how you're complaining more about the skymin vote being rigged when for mence the TL at the time outright told us (us being the people that can't see votes) that it was an even 6-4 split and the last voter (including the user's name on smogon) had the final say on mence's ban and we outright hounded that user to vote ban. Xdddddd

Edit: and lmao you're on drugs if you think skymin was keeping azu in check lol, I dominated the entirety of 2014 and early 2015 with bunnies when skymin was unbanned. It's ban helped azu sure but that ban didn't make azu go from shit to godlike when azu already was shown to have very consistent results (more so than any doubles plyaer before and since then) with skymin around. Not to mention the whole unbanning broken shit to check broken shit is one of Yh worst arguments in existence.
 
So there's a lot of fantastic comparisons made to VGC 15 in terms of Azumarill but I think a vital element that is missing is the prominence of Talonflame being a huge stop/revenge killer of Azumarill. Being able to outpriority/use Quick Guard, and also slay Jirachi is a pretty big deal in terms of Azumarill's strength. While Azumarill is strong, it's not suspect worthy in any sense. It's got huge difficulties in setting up and is heavily deterred by Talonflame, as well as stuff like Char Y innately murdering Jirachi and halving AJet.
I've said this some time ago, the prominence of Talon, as you called it, seems more like a misstake of most people rather than a vital element of the doubles metagame. Most people came to the conclusion that VGC15 was a meta closer to be "solved" than any meta before and Talon was one of the worst in it. Why would it be any better in a meta where theres another mega walling it, people using Scarf Lando > AV Lando most of the time (meaning Talon can't Wisp them) and 6 'mons on the opposing field (meaning Talon will have even less of an impact before it kills itself) plus some minor aspects such as Amoonguss being not nearly as good as it is in '15 (while Jirachi doesn't do anything against Talon, it forces Talon to Flare Blitz into it and Goggles won't help), the newly realeased Volcanion, Skymin not being there anymore etc. Even after the rise of Azumarill in late '15 Talon didn't get any more popular, so I don't see any reason why it should have an impact on Azu in DOU. Good Azu players know Talon can potentially revenge Azu but it's not exactly a huge deal.

It's not like Pokemon such as Azu and Mence are too threatening by themselfes, it's Jirachi making them so incredibly hard to deal with, that's why I wanted it to be gone. For instance, Salamence doesn't pose a huge threat to most teams as Thundy and Diancie are full stops to it, fast Ice attacks KO it easily, even Kanga will win a 1v1 if not at -1 Attack but all this doesn't help as Jirachi beats/redirects all of these.
 
Well uh I figured I might as well make a post about a certain something I lost to on ladder:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-395931199 (for those who don't feel like watching this is the nice little Entrainment Wonder Guard gimmick that I should not have fallen for x_x)

Now I am aware that I could and should have played to avoid this better, so don't take this a raging anger post or whatever. Mostly I just feel like this is something to talk about in this area because it is a fairly unskilled way to cheese yourself into a win. This is similar to the infamous sleep + Gravity that was banned awhile back, though I am aware that the combo in that instance was banned for many other reasons (including the fact it was actually very hard to beat since Hypnosis and moves of that sort when through common sleep answers like Grass-types and Safety Goggles). The general fact of the matter is that while not technically broken, it does form an often unmanageable threat given status moves are not to common in the meta (I would also assume the last move on the set was Rest for that type of thing). So basically think Azumarill after a BDrum on steroids, except far harder to set up.

I mostly posted this to hear what others think about this, so any thoughts?
 

Pocket

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I see no harm in banning Wonder Guard. It offers absolutely no competitive value, and instead enable these brainless strategy to be used on ladder. There are number of ways to stop the Entrainment - Wonder Guard combo, but if it ever goes up it's an auto-lose, and no moves in future turns can change the outcome.
 

Pocket

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i remember i had a team with ttar and kyurem-b and i still lost somehow O.O

#badplayer
 
I think people should consider using blaziken as their fast "grass" sun sweeper over venusaur. A core of:

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 100 SpA / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Overheat
- Solar Beam
- Protect

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 76 Atk / 188 SpA / 244 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Superpower
- Protect

is a bit stronger than the standard venu-zard core because blaziken still beats pretty much every zard counter that venu does, such as diancie, lando t, terrakion etc, while also beating heatran, which is huge. The hydreigon matchup also improves a lot, which is nice as I've seen a lot more of them since the induction of volcanion. The talonflame matchup still isnt great, but since blaze beats heatran, the need for hp ground is lessened and you are free to run overheat, which lets zard beat talon 1v1. Running fire blast over overheat makes playing with this blaziken a lot easier cause you have a go to spammable move the takes a huge chunk of anything that doesnt resist. The only real con i have found is that you lack the defensive benefits of a grass type, which mainly just sucks for having to switch in to spore if neither of the above are on the field.

Essentially going with blaziken improves the heatran and hyreigon matchup, slightly improves the talon matchup for zard, and doesnt really make any other matchups substantially worse. Blaziken is just much more threatening in general. Some calcs for reference:

188 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 265-315 (109.9 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
76 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Superpower vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 398-471 (120.9 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
188 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T in Sun: 356-421 (111.2 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
76 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 460-541 (141.9 - 166.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
76 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Superpower vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 460-541 (121.3 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

kamikaze

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The Doubles Council has decided to vote on the state of Swagger in DOU. We did this in 2 phases.

Phase 1:
A. Restrict Swagger
B. Leave Swagger

if there is a majority vote on Option A in the 1st phase then we proceed to Phase 2

Phase 2:
A. Ban Swagger
B. Confusion Clause Mod
- Moves whose primary effect is Confusion will fail if used on the opponent. This will effect the following moves: Swagger, Supersonic, Confuse Ray, Sweet Kiss, and Flatter. Dynamic Punch is exempt

Phase 1 Results: 5 Restrict Swagger, 1 Leave Swagger, 1 Abstain
kamikaze17: A. Restrict Swagger
Memoric: A. Restrict Swagger
Dawgie: Abstain
Level 51: B. Leave Swagger
qsns: A. Restrict Swagger
SamVGC: A. Restrict Swagger
shaian: A. Restrict Swagger

Thus we moved to Phase 2

Phase 2 Results: 6 Ban Swagger, 1 Confusion Clause Mod
kamikaze17: A. Ban Swagger
Memoric: A. Ban Swagger
Dawgie: A. Ban Swagger
Level 51: B. Confusion Clause Mod
qsns: A. Ban Swagger
SamVGC: A. Ban Swagger
shaian: A. Ban Swagger

Swagger will be BANNED from Doubles OU and will no longer be legal in future tournaments
 

DaAwesomeDude1

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Can we ban accuracy lowering moves now, it doesn't add anything competively and only makes our ladder shittier with people like Davila running around
 

Mizuhime

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so when's the thunder wave vote. If were going to ban a move that's less problematic than thunder wave surely we should be voting on the one that's more of a pain in the ass by every sense of the word, no? Higher chance to not move, it slows your pokemon down, and it doesn't ware off like swagger does so surely people must want this banned to?
 
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