Metagame np: DOU Stage 1 - Safe and Sound | Jirachi Banned! (Read New Suspect System Thoroughly)

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My Evaluation of the Suspect Process


hi sorry if this is kinda dumb but i'm a little confused about this infographic? if i counted right there's 52 people in the "made reqs" category on here, but the other thread said there were 51 eligible voters. furthermore, my name isn't on the list, so there's at least two names out of place? maybe it's an error on my end.

Anyways, just throwing in my two cents; I was pretty in favor of keeping Jirachi in when I played my suspect test ladder games (all with PsychTerrain/ZardY offense) because in the relatively small number of games I played against it it seemed pretty harmless. Coming from the perspective of a newer player to the DOU scene (literally my first week in here lmao) I played against something like six or seven Jirachi squads, and I never noticed Jirachi being a huge issue, since Zardy/Lando/Hydra all took care of it well enough that I could continue on with my braindead hyper-offense play. With myself tentatively in favor of voting No Ban on Jirachi, and my COIL sitting just above 2600, I took to the forums.

A lot of the guys in favor of banning Jirachi raised really good points that I hadn't thought of when I was playing the game; the team that I ran with was very limited in the scope of how it interacted with Jirachi. Either I had one of my super-effective STAB users in on it and I could maul it for a considerable amount of its HP (usually 2hko after Iapapa) or I had to make some passive play to regain control of the board while not allowing my opponent to get too much free reign with whatever their other Pokemon was. Most of the time, even though I was running psychspam, I was in a fine position to deal with Jirachi. When I watched other players playing against Jirachi, the simple act of having pokemon like Tapu Fini, Zapdos, Salamence, and others on the field meant your opponent had an opportunity to set up a Volcarona or a Tyranitar or a Zygarde and start cleaning house. Jirachi punished defensively-based teams in a way that made that playstyle much more difficult to effectively push to the limit.

I'm traditionally a slower and more strategical player; in games like Hearthstone and League of Legends, I've typically taken to control decks, or tanks and control mages. There's nothing like that in DOU-- which, simply by the nature of the metagame having two pokemon on the field at once is already difficult enough-- but having Jirachi in the metagame pushes this team archetype almost entirely into the ground. Jirachi buys too much time and breathing room for midrange teams to set up and start clearing games, and I'd like to see how the meta gets shaken up without Jirachi in the mix. When you look at the tierlist, the pokémon that enjoy playing strategic, long, grindy games in the top tiers are limited to Tapu Fini and Milotic, maybe including mons like Tyranitar, Kangaskhan, or Tapu Bulu depending on their sets.

Again, this is all coming from the perspective of a new player. It's possible I literally have no idea what I'm talking about, so please take this with a grain of salt. Thanks.
 

This seems like a topic to discuss since people were talking about it a bit during the suspect. With Jirachi out of the tier, this is a strong asset for any team since it can OHKO a large portion of the non-bulky meta game, and can be used alongside other Psychic types to tear holes in some offensive teams and maybe even KO some pretty bulky things. It punishes both offense and bulky teams with its power and blocks out Fake Out, which lets it either stop a trick room setter or protect one. Once it has a speed advantage of any kind (scarf, tailwind, possibly trick room), it is usually able to drop a few KOs pretty fast.
I'd like to see how the meta adapts to this after the Jirachi ban, as Zygarde and Mence are harder to setup now and Azumarill is just shit under psychic terrain. I could see things like Bronzong and Aegislash rising a lot in usage and balancing out Psychic spam, but we should give it some time before attempting to suspect it imo but that's just me. At the moment I think it's kind of healthy to have in the meta since psychic spam deters setup and promotes offense and every team should already have a strong lele check anyway, but lele seems to have a lot of broken qualities like a mandatory specs boost, being highly versatile, reducing some mons' viability because of priority block, and having a pretty good offensive typing as well as a not bad defensive typing. I think the really scary thing might be hoopa+lele since hoopa gets the terrain boost and breaks protect without even having to have the same coverage as lele like deo-a would.

Also I have had a little bit of trouble deciding but which is better, scarf lele and deo-s or scarf lele and deo-a? deo-s outspeeds everything except chlorosaur and swift swim mons, so it might even be able to run 4 moves and LO instead of protect (which is what I have been doing so far), and lele can run modest to hit things harder, whereas deo-a is stronger but forces lele to be timid in order to beat lando-t and tie with other scarf lele's and cubes.
 

GenOne

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This seems like a topic to discuss since people were talking about it a bit during the suspect. With Jirachi out of the tier, this is a strong asset for any team since it can OHKO a large portion of the non-bulky meta game, and can be used alongside other Psychic types to tear holes in some offensive teams and maybe even KO some pretty bulky things. It punishes both offense and bulky teams with its power and blocks out Fake Out, which lets it either stop a trick room setter or protect one. Once it has a speed advantage of any kind (scarf, tailwind, possibly trick room), it is usually able to drop a few KOs pretty fast.
I'd like to see how the meta adapts to this after the Jirachi ban, as Zygarde and Mence are harder to setup now and Azumarill is just shit under psychic terrain. I could see things like Bronzong and Aegislash rising a lot in usage and balancing out Psychic spam, but we should give it some time before attempting to suspect it imo but that's just me. At the moment I think it's kind of healthy to have in the meta since psychic spam deters setup and promotes offense and every team should already have a strong lele check anyway, but lele seems to have a lot of broken qualities like a mandatory specs boost, being highly versatile, reducing some mons' viability because of priority block, and having a pretty good offensive typing as well as a not bad defensive typing. I think the really scary thing might be hoopa+lele since hoopa gets the terrain boost and breaks protect without even having to have the same coverage as lele like deo-a would.

Also I have had a little bit of trouble deciding but which is better, scarf lele and deo-s or scarf lele and deo-a? deo-s outspeeds everything except chlorosaur and swift swim mons, so it might even be able to run 4 moves and LO instead of protect (which is what I have been doing so far), and lele can run modest to hit things harder, whereas deo-a is stronger but forces lele to be timid in order to beat lando-t and tie with other scarf lele's and cubes.
On my phone so this is gonna be a short post but Jirachi just got banned, so imo the meta needs to settle a bit before it's even worthwhile to speculate on what else is unbalanced.

Fwiw I went in yesterday to delete/replace my Rachi teams and I only ended up removing about 20% of my teams. Results may vary for other people, but 20% is also roughly how many SPL teams had Rachi iirc, so I feel like the meta is already dealing with psyspam in other ways. Jirachi was an easy crutch mon if you were weak to psyspam but it's far from being an unbeatable archetype otherwise imo.

e: Deo-A > Deo S for sure, and Lele doesn't need scarf if anything a slower bulkier Lele is more likely to maintain psychic terrain against faster tapus
 

GenOne

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Idk if it's too early to say Kang is unhealthy, but with virtually no fighting types in the meta rn Kang + Zapdos/Fini seems to be super centralizing.

What are people running to counter Kang? There seems to be several "shaky" Kang counters, ranging from Fightium Z Lele to...well, anything with a strong Fighting move. But overall I can't think of a single "solid" check to Kang rn, so imo it's time to open this discussion.
 

Pocket

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ya kang is definitely suspect, and the dou council are well aware of this. I tried adding Rocky Helmet on random mons, too, for free dommage. The one shortcoming of Kangaskhan, is that it almost never gets to OHKO mons with SToss, so you are guaranteed to survive at least one turn to put in a strong hit. You can also use Counter on your Kangaskhan to win the mirror, shaving off 400 HP from the opposing Kang. Having a Ghost-type like Gengar or Aegislash always give you safe switch-ins to Kangaskhan lacking Crunch / Sucker Punch. Also Pokemon that can generate 101 HP subs can easily soak up 2 STosses with its substitute (notable 101 HP Sub users being Zygarde and Kyurem-B). But basically you have to pretty much pummel Kangaskhan with 2-3 solidly strong hits to put it out. Status conditions like sleep, paralysis, and poison can also help with this endeavor, but ofc they are hard to inflict due to Misty Terrain. Having speed control helps a lot to take it out before it can SToss.
 
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