Metagame np: DOU Stage 0 - Tale as Old as Time | Magearna and Zygarde Quickbanned | Eevium Z Quickbanned

kamikaze

The King Of Games
is a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
MemoNote: Just wanna give you guys a heads up:

This thread is also a thread for general metagame discussion and not just for suspects. I'm taking the opportunity to say that, yes! you can actually post replays, some analyses on strategies, replays... or anything as long as it talks about the metagame! This thread and all subsequent variants of it are the metagame threads of the subforum. While it may be easy to mistake this thread to be purely for suspects, this isn't really the case; np threads are supposed to talk about the general stage of the metagame (hence stage # on the titles) and the suspect posts, while being posts that talk about the present meta, are not the only ones you can post here. Honestly, as long as it's about the metagame, you can post anything.

I'll also make this clear too while I'm at it: we can have threads for specific topics too! If one ever feels that they have something good to talk about that wouldn't really fit in the metagame thread or would be better to be a specific topic on their own, feel free to run it for approval to the mods of this subforum (myself, kamikaze, and Level 51). A good example of these kinds of threads would be this.

***

"Tale as old as time. Song as old as rhyme. Beauty and the Beast."



The Doubles Council has decided to put forward Magearna and Power Construct (Zygarde-Complete form) to a quickban vote which will be happening over the weekend.

Magearna possesses a fantastic defensive typing in Fairy/Steel along with the ability to boost its Special Attack throughout the battle quite easily when any Pokemon faints thanks to Soul Heart Ability. The speed at which Magearna boosts its Special Attack Stat, the coverage it possesses, and its fantastic bulk and typing are the reasons why its being thrown to a vote.

Power Construct enables Zygarde to become a massive tank with 216 base HP which enables to become a massive bulky setup sweeper with either Dragon Dance or Coil. The massive HP buff enables Zygarde to easily soak in even 4x effective Ice attacks and Thousand Arrows is usually the only attack it ever needs as its a Ground move that hits floating pokemon as well. The ease this pokemon has in both setting up and sweeping with or without partners gives it a strong case to be put up for a quickban vote.

The result of the quick ban vote as well as any potential future quick ban suspects, if any, will be posted within this thread.

It is encouraged that this thread be used for metagame discussion. Discussion can be regarding current threats, metagame trends, ways to combat the metagame, etc...

When making arguments be sure to use proper backing whether it be through replays, experience, or calcs. Do not overdose on replays and calcs and try to simply use them to string together your arguments rather than just dumping them and expecting things to be self explanatory.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

emma

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis a Past SCL Champion
DPL Champion
first off wonderful song choice

secondly i think i speak for most of the community when i say i think both should be banned. perfect zygarde has insane bulk and only needs one coverage move for the entire tier lol. when paired with redirection and dd/coil it becomes very strong and very hard to take down. magearna has a top 3 type and boosts at insane levels with soul heart (which protecting or subing) which is completely ridiculous. the only thing that kills it is lando-i or zard-y lol. it usually easily gets to +3 in every game i play

please ban these lol

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-481211186
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-481284877
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-481636397
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankdoublesou-481625152
(not mine, from sam and milk, just cpd from discussion thread)
 

Checkmater

It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
Before I begin, keep in mind that there is, effectively, no status quo. Thus, both options should be weighed equally, but it is definitely much easier to project the effects of a mon when it is included in the meta rather than not.

Keep in mind that since it's so early in the meta, it's very, very difficult to write/talk about the meta in interesting ways, other than lowlevel "A beats B, if you ban A, B becomes better" kind of analysis. More complicated analysis such as "Char Y's gonna be really good after Volcanion comes out because Volcanion takes the spot of Talonflames and Heatrans, both of which Sun really hates to see" tends to govern the way the meta moves. There are a lot of mons/sets that are nowhere near being explored, so my first instinct is to say this council vote is hasty, but then again "no status quo" so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ no such thing as a "hasty" vote.

That said, here's why I don't think we should ban Magearna.

The first thing we have to acknowledge is how much the presence of Zygarde helps Magearna's viability. Not only does tr Magearna love playing against Zygarde, it also takes hella advantage of Zygarde neutering the viability of every other steel and every other Fire-Type in the meta. Both of these are things that Magearna hates to face with a passion.

Secondly, its typing is honestly kind of ehh. I talked about this in room when it was first released, but its typing gives you ~4 relevant resists. Its typing chart looks good until you realize that most of its resists aren't very useful, and that the ones that are relevant aren't exactly resists that one hunts for in teambuilding (for example in a teambuilding framework, you have to checkoff fire resists, ground resists, water resists, but psychic resist? ehh), and all but Dark are resists you'll get through using any other steel anyways. Defensively, Magearna is basically a steel type with neutral fighting and resisting dark. As opposed to other steels, such as Jirachi (redirection), Heatran (fire immunity), Aegislash (hitting hard + utility + immunity to fighting), Magearna defensively doesn't really bring all that much. Like Jirachi, it's critically held back by its Ground+Fire weaknesses, both of which I expect to become much more relevant after a Zygarde ban.

Third, it currently functions as a very strong check to some of what are still the strongest threats in the meta, ie Sala-Table, Skymin, Tapu Lele, as well as the plethora of very fast things introduced. With the introduction of all these new mons + the nerf of Kangaskhan I expect we could find ourselves banning Mence, Skymin and Tapu Lele down this course, but I believe that a meta with Magearna will keep things balanced, as it'll function as a very good check to those three threats while being heavily inhibited by Fire/Ground types.

Tl;dr: Ban Zygarde first and separately please, as that should reduce Magearna's viability. Also Magearna really isn't ban-worthy and it keeps Mence/Skymin/Tapu Lele in check. Hope I'm not too late to try to sway some council members on this vote.

edit: forgot to mention that Magearna's coverage is ass: hits neither fires* or steels and has to rely on some kind of coverage move for hitting things, which always feels terrible.
 
Last edited:
Zygarde: Get rid of this lol. Almost all the people I've played that have used Zygarde were bad and didn't know what they were doing but somehow managed to make it close most of the time because this thing would eat up so many hits that it shouldn't be able to. The bulk, set up potential, and a crazy good move like Thousand Arrows paired with an intelligent player is truly terrifying. Alongside redirection and wide guard I don't know what's stopping this beast.

Magearna: ahhhh fairy/steel 80 hp instead of 50 how good mawile could have been. Really good mon don't think it's so good that it deserves a quickban but I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect later down the road lol. Gets hard walled(depending on coverage) by a lot of popular mons, gives us another check to mega mence + rachi, speed holds it back and doesn't get priority(although it gets TR). Overall I don't think it's bad for the meta as it keeps Tapu Lele(not really)Mence in check and has it's counters/checks/switch ins.

Tapu Lele: This thing is actually retarded and needs to go imo. The only time I could beat the scarf set paired with deo-a was when I was using excadrill sand lol. Maybe that's because I was using offense and need to get with the times and use spdef Aegis and Blissey. After Zygarde gets quickbanned Lele should definitely be the topic of discussion. The amount of strain this puts on teambuilding is insane. The support it offers shit like deo-a and hoopa with an immunity to priority and a free boost to their already strong psyshic moves is incredibly hard to deal with. Out of the 200~ games I've played; Zygarde, Mence, and Magearna have all beaten me but that was because of a misplay on my part or hax but against this there was no counter play, nothing I could do, I would just lose turn 1. Again this may be because I don't want to use Heatran, Aegislash, Jirachi all on the same team or I just need to get creative with the other terrain mons sigh. Maybe there is a reason that Tapu Lele won the first 2 official room tours :thinking:

tl;dr ban zygarge, keep magearna, do something about tapu lele.
 

Mr.GX

Mew Mew
is a Tiering Contributor
I have played about 70 games in the new formats (maybe more), and here are my suggestions:

Magearna: While its true this Pokemon is a better TR setters than Gardevoir, and has access to an amazing typing and self boosting ability, it is not impossible to beat. Landorus-I, Charizard, Nidoking, Heatran all KO it rather easily. Even Landorus-T EQ is a 2HKO on it, and magearna has no means for easy recovery. And whats more? If you run a pure defensive set, its offensive stats are rather lacking, and requires atleast 2-3 boosts to be effective. In most my battles, Magearna itself poses little to no trouble, it can be easily put to sleep, can be taunted, and when run with amoongus, gets beat by Charizard. Once it sets up, it can take down almost everything. But due to its low speed, it is rather easily countered. Should it be banned? I don't think so. We should obviously ban Jirachi before we ban this bunny...

Zygarde: Out of all the Zygarde's I fought, I only won once against them. I must admit, its bulk is monstrous. +2 Magearna dazzling gleam did about less than 50%. Once it sets up with Dragon Dance, all it needs to do is spam one move. Pokemon like Rotom-Wash becomes less useful, and Thundurus gets KOed instantly (so much for flying types). With a decent redirector like Jirachi, this thing can become unstoppable. I have wondered how stupidly overpowered this thing is. Base stats of 708? He obviously belong in Ubers, with such a good move and bulk and set up. You need atleast 2-3 counters to even have a chance, and he severely restricts team building options. We don't need over centralized Pokemon in here. So yea, ban Power Contruct, sent him flying back to Ubers.

Jirachi: Why is this thing still here? Now that Mence and Skymin is back, we dont want Jirachi hanging around with Zygarde gone. Jira+Mence can be annoying to deal with, especially with the recent Parental Bond nerf, and lack of Mega-Gardevoir.

So, thats it. Keep Magearna, Ban Zygarde, Ban Jirachi ;)
 
I played a bunch of games and have been pretty vocal with my opinion on Zygarde. Its a busted pokemon and even powerful super effective hits aren't KOing or even 2hkoing it. That in tandem with its ability to set up and actually have offensive presence makes it incredibly unhealthy for the metagame and worthy of a quickban imo.

I have similar feelings on Magearna and this viewpoint seems less shared in this thread. Magearna also is able to soak up relatively strong super effective hits, basically anything that isn't Lando-i earth power, and start setting up. It has multiple options to use either its low speed, Trick Room, or a faster speed, Shift Gear, to sweep teams at different stages of the game. Playing against Magearna is incredibly difficult and I don't think this is just because of Zygarde's presence. It boosts way too quickly without it using any turns of its own and often finds itself at +3 or +4 before you've really been in a good position to knock it out. While it's not as bulky as Zygarde it still does the same thing that makes Zygarde dangerous, it soaks up hits until its moving first or behind a sub, and then it's SpAtk is boosted to the point where it starts KOing mons. It's' an incredibly unhealthy presence and while "wait and see" is a fine mindset for this process, this pokemon is broken in the Doubles format and deserves to be quickbanned.

Edit: "Heatran KOs Magearna easily": 252+ SpA Heatran Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 228-270 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Last edited:
Magearna feels pretty busted to me:
  1. Its weakness to fires and grounds isn't particularly difficult to handle, teambuilding-wise. Pairing Magearna with Shuca Berry Volcanion, HP Ice + Rock Slide Lando-I (or even Zygarde-C) allows it to beat the entire meta. Notice how all of these mons also beat common Magearna switch-ins, like Jirachi or Char-Y.
  2. While Magearna doesn't necessarily offer more defensive utility than other steels, it by far applies the greatest offensive pressure because its a bulky set-up sweeper. The difference between Magearna and other setup sweepers is that it isn't a sitting duck while it sets up, due to its high natural bulk. Azu needed Follow Me support in ORAS because its lifespan is limited by Belly Drum. Besides being vulnerable to burns and intimidate, Kangaskhan prone to being revenge-killed by mons like Keldeo and Lando-T. Magearna suffers from none of these issues because its a special attacker that set ups using substitute. It also finds ample opportunity to set up on mons that can't touch it (e.g, Hydreigon, Hoopa, Kangaskhan, Tapu Lele, Salamence, and Tapu Bulu), another advantage it has over Kangaskhan (which has no relevant resists) and Azumarill (which can't afford to take a hit because of Belly Drum bringing it down to 75%)
  3. This brings me to my point about the insane levels of offensive pressure Magearna provides. You can't afford to make a positioning mistake because a) it gives Magearna a free chance to use sub and b) Magearna forces you to switch out, so its partner can land another hit. After its substitute is up, Magearna becomes much more difficult to revenge kill because you have to hit it twice before it can click substitute again. This basically forces you to double target Magearna, which lets its partner land another attack for free. Magearna also discourages you from attacking its partner because that's giving it a +1 boost - its presence on the field acts as a pseudo-follow me. In other words, Magearna is nothing short of amazing at providing offensive momentum.
  4. Playing against Magearna is difficult because its movepool allows it to invalidate its counters. It can carry Thunderbolt for Char-Y/Volcanion/Celesteela, HP ground to hit Jirachi/Heatran/Aegislash, or Ice Beam to take care of grounds. Yeah, its going to be walled by something no matter what, but you can't ever be certain that your Magearna switch-in isn't going to die to a random coverage move.
  5. Also, I'm seeing a lot of folks argue that Magearna should remain because it's one of the best checks to Tapu Lele/Mence/Kanga. If these mons were broken in a meta without Magearna, they could be suspected, so thats not an issue.
As for Zygarde:
  1. I think I'm fairly safe in saying that everyone wants it banned.
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I think what makes both Zygarde & Magearna so powerful are 1) the ease in racking up boosts with minimal support (doesn't even require FM), 2) they both have spammable spread moves that easily take advantage of their offensive boosts, and 3) Their respectable typing and bulk that makes them difficult to dispose and outlast their counters.

I think Thousand Arrows deserve a lot of credit to Zygarde's success. The conventional Flying- and Levitate mons, which we rely as protection against Ground moves, are taken down by this move. Only Bug & Grass-types resist Thousand Arrows, both types which are blown up by Mega Mence or plethora of Fire-types. Thanks to Thousand Arrows, Zygarde has an extra moveslot for Substitute to facilitate its set up. Between the two, I think Zygarde restricts teambuilding the most for this reason (usual answers to Ground-type moves are moot; discourages packing Pokémon that are set-up bait for Zygarde)

Soul Heart is so aggravating, because Magearna nabs SpA boosts without doing anything. Sac one of your mons for a free SpA boost. Put Magearna next to an offensive nuke like Charizard Y and rack up more SpA boosts while it sits comfortably behind a Sub. The opponent is punished for taking out Magearna's partner by powering it up further. The ease at which its SpA grabs 4-6 boosts is unreal. Even though Zygarde applies more of a stranglehold in teambuilding than Magearna, the latter is a lot more potent in actual games imo, despite people naturally preparing for Steel-types, as it plow through teams with juiced up Dazzling Gleams.

I agree with whoever called these two as "passive redirectors," as they literally steal the spotlight of any game, diverting all attention to these mons while their partners are left to their own devices.
 
Last edited:

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
zygarde-complete.gif


Incredibly stupid mon, I feel Zygarde Complete is even better in Doubles OU then it was in Singles OU before it was banned there. With the right support (especially from Oranguru), it is so easy for Zygarde to transform into its perfect form and be able to setup. Thousand Arrows makes this thin even more stupid as it is a spread move with legit no immunities, which makes it extremely hard to actually counterplay against it once Zygarde actually gets some boosts going. This mon is clearly too much for the Doubles OU meta to handle and should be quickbanned right away.



I also feel that Magearna is pretty broken as well even if Zygarde-C is not present. This mon is able to rack up boosts so easily thanks to its ability and it possesses a fantastic Steel/Fairy typing which allows it to sustain itself thanks to its great bulk. Redirection/sweeping support allows Magearna to easily just clean up games afterwards with Dazzling Gleam. Yes Zygarde-C creates a broken core with it and it is questionable if this thing will actually be busted without the monster alongside it, but I really feel that there are other great teammates for Magearna (Seimis Toss Mega Kanga and Volcanion mainly) that are able to get boosts for Magearna just as easily.

Both mons are really broken and should both be quickbanned a.s.a.p to steer towards a healthier metagame. Usually against mon bans in Doubles due to how differently it functions, compared to singles bans, but these two create quite the exception imo.
 

kamikaze

The King Of Games
is a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Magearna: Unanimous Ban
Ban. Steel Fairy typing is fantastic defensively along with 80/115/115 defenses to take super effective hits. Steel Fairy hasnt had much opportunity to shine in Doubles OU because of the active presence of Fires. Unlike Mega Mawile, Magearna is undeterred by Intimidate as it runs a special set as well as a great movepool to actually respond to fires with HP Ground and even Tbolt and Aura Sphere as other coverage options. The speed at which this pokemon boosts is simply outstanding due to Soul Heart boosting spA any pokemon faints on either side.

The main ways to easily KO this pokemon are with fire and ground type attacks, and it has not been uncommon for people to run less accurate fire moves like Overheat to handle this pokemon due to the massive threat it possesses. Unfortunately missing a move on Magearna can often spell certain doom as it takes advantage of any other KO's that happened during the turn as well as what it already had and blows back the opponent even if they resist. While there are Ground attacks in DOU, barring Landorus-I Earth Power there isnt many Ground attacks that are capable of quickly dispatching this pokemon which requires a high level of attention because of how easily it can get out of hand if left unchecked.

A sub set with dazzling gleam and hp ground can hit most things in the metagame barring Charizard Y and thanks to the Soul Heart boosts HP Ground can actually hit significantly hard coming off 130spA. It is also a phenomenal Trick Room setter that enables its own cleaning with its boosts.

The passive redirector argument heavily applies for this pokemon due to how it significantly takes the opponent's attention because it becomes a threat that immediately needs to be responded to before it boosts to sky high levels and starts collecting boosts the more KO's it gets if left unchecked.

Ban. This thing's just so dangerous oml, its bulk and typing paired with Soul Heart make it a really big threat to consider on the field. Soul Heart lets it nab boosts really easily, making it capable of being a dangerous foe in just a few turns that can apply a lot of pressure to foes; the fact that it gets boosts so easily, so economically is pretty damn gamebreaking tbh since it essentially just has to be there. Megearna is capable of taking hits itself as well as dish them back; with Soul Heart, opposing players have to approach sequences with caution as KOing the partner can end up with a boosted Mag, while prioritizing Mag isn't a simple task (esp more so if boosted) as its bulk and typing leave it with very few things that can immediately threaten it; essentially, Magearna functions as a soft FM with a good defensive typing that also punishes and threatens shit.

On another note, the typing lets it match up against a lot of things too. A boatload of resists really helps in conjunction with its bulk since, again, few things can immediately threaten it. While it is held back offensively, to an extent walled by opposing Steel- and Fire-types, this is only a really a small flaw that doesn't do much to make Magearna "balanced" imo. It can easily just mark those threats with a partner or teammates in other sequences, and in the end Mag will still be a threat to consider in-game.

Magearna just demands so much respect when playing it; it can do a good amount of stuff and one can't just ignore it, else they get steamrolled. Stopping it is no easy task either, as its combo of stellar bulk and typing are make it quite durable.

Ban, impedes the idea of a skill gap that we'd like to see in DOU - great typing, with the ability to too easily control the temp of game(s). I think the inclusion of this pokemon allows very good results with extremely minimal effort / skill, something that we wouldnt like to see in DOU

Ban. Magearna is just ridiculous, it has great splashability on all sorts of teams due to its great typing and it has a bunch of really cool coverage moves (Thunderbolt, Aura Sphere) which you don't even need to use because when you're at +6 SAtk everything dies to a Dazzling Gleam or a HP Ground anyway. From experience this thing turns games into huge snowballs which always end up with a +5 or +6 Magearna on the field, and can even be triggered by the opponent getting too many KOs on the Magearna user's ally.

Ban, Soul Heart was clearly not designed for use in Double Battles and in my view is pretty far from what Doubles is supposed to be about. Has a lot of versatility in its moveset, and gets out of control far too quickly with its ability to stick around due to its fantastic typing and good bulk. My personal experience with it says that its far too easy to put forth minimal effort and still steamroll with it.

Ban. skews the flow of player interactions around it due to the nature of its ability, and paired with trick room can alleviate its own speed issues. its ability also allows it to use defensive investment (a set i think should be examined more than it currently is) and still hit very hard through the course of a battle.


Power Construct: Unanimous Ban
Ban. Thousand Arrows gave Zygarde access to one of the best attacks a mono attacking setup sweeper can access as a Ground move that can also hit floating mons. This combined with its great natural bulk and ability to effectively heal by 50% when transforming and increasing its max health bar allows it to gain even more survivability. With the loss of multiple fairy megas, and the only strong Fairy Stab attacker to take their place atm being Tapu Lele, very few things in the current metagame are able to hit this pokemon hard enough and even then Zygarde generally has partners which are making this all the more difficult, and has caused the rise of teams that are built around just setting up Zygarde and winning in a similar manner to what Xerneas did in VGC 2016. The passive redirector argument that has been brought up is very true regarding the fact that Zygarde forcing an opponent to focus down on it because of the massive threat it possesses when setup, which allow its partner pokemon to take advantage of the situation. I dont believe the effect that this pokemon has on building and turn by turn decision making is something that will contribute to balanced metagame.

Ban. This thing is just so damn bulky, it can just easily set up on the strongest of attacks and proceed to steamroll teams. It's really bulky and hard to take down, which helps it set up with DD or Coil or whatever really easily. Not much in the metagame can threaten and actually stop it from just ending games, and with the pressure it applies from the fact that it can just sit on you means its teammates get some leeway to do whatever too. A guy has to use an excessive lot of resources and attention to prevent it from just winning; it just skews the balance so bad that Power Construct has to go.

Ban, extremely hard to stop whilst set up (before it just wins the game) - and even if stopped requires too many resources (and time) in the battle usually to get a positive result against. Not quite as bad as Magearna - but still ban worthy.

Ban. I personally think this is less of an issue than Magearna, but an issue nonetheless. Speaking as someone who has topped the ladder twice so far with absolutely brain-dead play while using Sam's Zygarde / Magearna team, Zygarde's ridiculous bulk makes it really easy to set up in front of anything which doesn't get STAB Ice Beam (and sometimes even in front of stuff with STAB Ice Beam, lol). And then we move on to Power Construct. It's nigh impossible to KO this thing without activating Power Construct (iirc Modest Latios Draco doesn't ever OHKO from full or something), which wouldn't be an issue if Zygarde-Complete didn't have Blissey-tier bulk. Moreover, we have Thousand Arrows, which basically hits the entire tier except for Shedinja, so Zygarde can afford to comfortably run another set-up move like Substitute (or Rest, maybe?) which makes it even harder to take down. The moment Hashtag's Kangaskhan Seismic Tossed my Zygarde for 15% damage per hit was the moment I knew this thing had to leave DOU.

Ban. It's nearly impssible to KO once it gets going with boosts and Power Construct and again feels pretty counter intuitive as to how Doubles should be played. I threw it onto a VGC 16 esque team and accidentally broke the ladder, with a good portion of the Top 20 using the no thought team and Level 51 topping the ladder with two different accounts at the same time with the team. I think in the long run Zygarde is more manageable given how easy it is to wall it with Wide Guard, but even with that it's still very difficult to get through the partners whilst using Wide Guard with one of your Pokemon. It requires far too many resources to properly account for while mainting a good team composition. Either you use Zygarde, are weak to it, or have a team composition that beats Zygarde but is likely lacking in its matchups vs everything else.

Ban. 100% zygarde is borked as hell. the issue wouldn't be so bad if it didn't have the hp adjustment, but that's now how it works so right now its a passive sitrus that heals more than 25% that ALSO comes with a permanent stat boost to HP and with zygardes access to boosting moves it becomes a very frightening mon that can centralize a battle around its presence. its special moves are also hilariously good, especially thousand arrows since flying and levitate mons can't even switch in for free.


Magearna and Power Construct have both been unanimously quickbanned from the Doubles OU tier. Tagging The Immortal to get this changed on the SM DOU Ladder.
 


The team besides Tapu Fini is just to show how Tapu Fini can make itself useful in the metagame. This Landorus-T uses AV and Hydreigon utilizes the bulky TW set.

If you're planning to use it at all, Tapu Fini needs TW/TR support. By investing 24 EVs into Spe, it can outspeed Adamant Scarfed Landorus-T under TW. Nevertheless, it does OHKO Heatran and Scarfed Landorus-T with Hydro Pump, and OHKO Mega Salamence (assuming it doesn't invest in bulk) with Moonblast as well. It can accomplish this by investing 84 EVs into LO-boosted SpA (Modest). The rest can be invested in bulk, which with 70 HP / 115 DEF / 130 SpD is quite comparable to Mega Venusaur's Stats. But that's not all. It got access to Heal Pulse, which is surprisingly useful, especially for a team such as shown above. It's also useful for stopping opposing mons from using Will-O-Wisp, T-Wave, and Swagger against mons such as my Mega Venusaur; Misty Surge guarantees this. So imo, Tapu Fini has a great niche as a Bulky Medic.

Tapu Fini @ Life Orb
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 84 SpA / 28 SpD / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Hydro Pump
- Heal Pulse
- Protect

Further Notes:
  • Survives 1 Seed Flare, assuming that it's not boosted by LO and Shaymin-Sky is Timid Nature.
  • Survives 1 Thunderbolt as long as it's not boosted by Electric Terrain.
  • Other than those mentioned above, rest are invested to DEF.
 
Last edited:

Idyll

xD
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion
Guys, just a reminder: if you're going to post here, make sure you're not just posting some fluff, one-liner, or bad meme! Try to have some content in your posts and, as much as possible, don't spam! If you agree with someone or something they did but don't have anything to add or say, feel free to just give them that juicy like :heart:
 

FloristtheBudew

I'm just tired
Is there a certain time frame we need to meet before we can start suspecting mons? Because I'd be an advocate for a skymin suspect since I feel it has overall painfully good match ups. Nearly if not all the new mons but tapu koko and pheromosa are under sped naturally by skymin, which brings the issue of basically nothing being introduced to help combat the speed tier of skymin. This gives the issue of fast flinches setting up free turns. Eg. Dragon dance mega mence and skymin as a pairing. To me I feel it makes the format forced to use scarf pokemon in order to combat just the skymin speed tier. But when you add on its good coverage and power with a strong stab of seed flare and e power, it gives it excellent offensive move options. Where another item might be more useful in more situations. Not to mention when you add on its good coverage and power with a strong stab of seed flare and e power to give it excellent offensive options. This to me doesn't seem like something extremely healthy but I'm open to discussion on the matter.
 

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
Is there a certain time frame we need to meet before we can start suspecting mons?
I hope so. Imo we should go through an entire seasonal before suspecting, at the minimum

Nearly if not all the new mons but tapu koko and pheromosa are under sped naturally by skymin, which brings the issue of basically nothing being introduced to help combat the speed tier of skymin.
If you are struggling with opposing skymin you need to adjust your style of play and team building. Having speed control has always been important; skymin is relatively frail and depends heavily on its speed. TR and TW removes skymins biggest strength.
Once you get any good sub user behind a sub, skymin will have a tough time. Particularly kyurem and Heatran.
Another style of play that wrecks skymin is sand/hail, out speeding with ice/rock moves plus breaking sash. Also rain, swift swimmers carry ice moves. Even chlorophyll sun is effective
You mentioned scarf. Most teams in ORAS had scarfs. Skymin is not making scarf more important imo, plus we have more diversity in scarf users rn which is interesting.
Skymin was the most controversial suspect being that they banned with less than 60%majority. So even in ORAS many people did not find it ban worthy. In S&M it's a great mon but less so than it was last gen.
I like having skymin around bc it encourages more diverse styles of play, particularly weather. And it's 1 more viable grass,which we don't have many of
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I'm not super concerned with Skymin right now with Scarf Tapu Lele being so good, Mence (which is plenty bulky for air slashes) being free, Tapu Koko outrunning, and Ninetales making hail maybe work.

"Losing" talonflame got rid of a check, but we got quite a few back.

Let's let the meta develop and look into something in a month or two at least, probably Tapu Lele.
 

FloristtheBudew

I'm just tired
If you are struggling with opposing skymin you need to adjust your style of play and team building. Having speed control has always been important; skymin is relatively frail and depends heavily on its speed. TR and TW removes skymins biggest strength.
Once you get any good sub user behind a sub, skymin will have a tough time. Particularly kyurem and Heatran.
Another style of play that wrecks skymin is sand/hail, out speeding with ice/rock moves plus breaking sash. Also rain, swift swimmers carry ice moves. Even chlorophyll sun is effective
You mentioned scarf. Most teams in ORAS had scarfs. Skymin is not making scarf more important imo, plus we have more diversity in scarf users rn which is interesting.
Skymin was the most controversial suspect being that they banned with less than 60%majority. So even in ORAS many people did not find it ban worthy. In S&M it's a great mon but less so than it was last gen.
I like having skymin around bc it encourages more diverse styles of play, particularly weather. And it's 1 more viable grass,which we don't have many of
I'm sorry I didn't realise I could set up trick room or tailwind without being flinched from air slash :) Almost all your answers require me to set something up, all which can be denied with flinches so I don't really agree with that. Not to mention having sand or hail doesn't kill skymin. It's still requiring something to move in order to ko it.

I'm well aware scarf is not more important, I'm saying it's becoming necessary as an item just to have a chance against skymin teams. It's certainly gained very little change in viability, as very little mons actually need to be out speed anything that came from the new generation of pokemon.
 
A Skymin that is moving second isn't doing it's job right. Its purpose is to be disruptive when it's on the field, but it can't always be on the field. Its biggest boon it its speed, and a Skymin moving second is a dead Skymin. It needs to go first to have a 60% chance to flinch because it isn't bulky enough to take hits otherwise. It's virtually neutered when Trick Room or Tail Wind is up. Seed Flare is still strong in these situations, but it's hard for a slow, frail pokemon to get a hit off in doubles. Skymin can stall the setting of these moves for ages, but the tables are turned when they finally do go up.

Shaymin requires some form of speed control to beat. Does this make it over-centralizing, then? I'd say no. A team without any form of speed control is bad. Going first is generally a good thing, so most teams pack ways to make that happen for themselves anyway. I know that speed control was still run on almost any team in ORAS both before and after skymin was banned.

Shaymin Sky is an incredibly strong mon when played well, but I don't think that it's strengths outweigh it's faults to the point that it's broken. I'm sure we'll see a suspect test of it down the line, but I think there are much bigger fish to fry right now.
 
Tapu Koko and Pheromosa are the only new Pokemon that naturally outspeed Skymin. They OHKO each other. At least the new guys can threaten a revenge kill. Maybe that lack of safety will keep Skymin in check a bit?
 
Well the thing about skymin is that its typing isnt as useful as it used to be because there are far fewer fighting and grass types, and more fire and steel types than there were last generation. The huge drop in thundurus usage is nice and all, but some of the stuff that skymin would prey on in the past, like keldeo and amoonguss, are far less common than they were.
 
The use of Rock (Diancie-Mega) and Fighting types, especially with Kang's recent lack of popularity, have certainly fallen, but that doesn't mean its STAB moves aren't useful as it used to be. And it's true that the usage of some Steel types, such as Genesect and Celesteela, has risen, although I doubt the same about Fire types (it's been the same imo). Still, Skymin has its use for taking care of rising threats such as Milotic and Tapu Bulu. Not to mention, its access to Earth Power (and HP Ice at times) is also valuable.

Nevertheless, I believe that good teams naturally have what it takes to care of Skymin without a problem. I'm basing this right off the meta's adjustment to the Tapu Lele and Deoxys-A core. Although they may be irrelevant to this conversation, I've definitely seen some crazy changes like TW Zard/Mence with Follow Me support. Even I changed some of my Mons EVs to outspeed Deoxys-A under TW and not the usual Adamant Scarfed Landorus-T. Heck, there's even rising Scarfed mons such as Kyurem-B, Genesect, and Tapu Lele. Flinches are avoidable. Thus, I really don't see a major issue with Skymin or a reason to suspect it. But this also doesn't mean that I think Tapu Lele (+ Deoxys-A) is a major issue as it certainly can be countered.

Another issue that players may complain about is Seed Flare's high changes to lower the target's Sp. Def by 2. In my opinion, it's tactically interesting to use, although it may be unamusing to opposing players. In its defense, at least it is not random as Rock Slide flinches; you can actually expect it to happen. Nevertheless, I'm neutral (not taking sides whether it's broken or not) on the matter of Seed Flare.
 

Matame

New Rules
If you are struggling with opposing skymin you need to adjust your style of play and team building.
I think that this statement alone mirrors the concerns of those who are pro skymin ban.

To beat skymin is to have a team that can withstand Skymin's offensive potential. There are two key moves that gives Skymin its edge of which it got axed last gen; Air Slash and Seed Flare. Seed flare is a 120 base power move that, when combined with it's ability Serene Grace, give it a 80% chance of lowering the targets Special Defense by 2 stages. This move alone gives Skymin insane teambreaking potential as it punishes switches, making it so that mons that may have been a 3HKO are now a 2HKO. Air slash is a 75 base power move that has a 60% chance of flinching the target. This makes it so that it can win 1v1 situations with almost any pokemon that would otherwise be impossible.

One of the biggest issues with skymin is that it punishes bulkier teams and playstyles. Teams that rely on defensive synergy struggle to deal with its coverage (flying/grass/ground) and it's ability to score koes with special defence drops. Base 127 is great speed stat and only challenged by scarfers, mega gengar and tapu koko. Because of this, it can take on a various amount of threats with air slash alone, and with the addition of tapu lele priority is less of an issue. Not getting dicked by Skymin requires you to run heavy speed control and/or faster Pokemon that can compete with it. This is a much more difficult task when factoring in Skymin teams will carry their own speed control and Skymin can take on trick room setters with Air Slash (60% flinch chance is more probable than not). Not only that but Air Slash flinches create free turns, where the user can bring a threat in, set up, attack with a Pokemon that was otherwise threatened by the flinched mon ect.

From what I've seen there has not really been much new introduced that keeps Skymin in place this gen, and therefore when considering how much impact it has on teambuilding to the point where an entire playstyle becomes all that more redundant and it's ability to create free turns based on favourable RNG vs anything slower than it, I don't see why it shouldn't warrant at least a suspect.
 

emma

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis a Past SCL Champion
DPL Champion
BIG SPIDER

Araquanid @ Splash Plate
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Atk / 88 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 SpA / 0 Spe
- Liquidation
- Lunge (you can also use leech life i just personally like lunge)
- Wide Guard
- Protect

This thing is rad. liquidation is basically adaptability + thick fat + water veil in one lol. it ohkos shay's mgengar and landot at -1. with 88 def you can tank 2 landot rock slides but i think ill change it since special lando is becoming a lot more popular and sometimes dont even carry rock coverage and when they do its edge. wide guard is always rad as it can help against landot rock slides / ninetails-a blizzard (for the ladder lol) / top lel's dazzling gleam. protect is protect lol.


this thing is so fucking good oml. scarf sets allow to out-speed basically the entire metagame and clean up late game since boosted psychic is doing like 50% to everything bar steels which arent hard to prepare for. specs allows it to ko everything. it makes things such as deoa or hoopau absolutely ridiculous since boosted stab off 170/180 spa and no fear of priority. it limits teams since you need either like double steel (aeg takes like 40 from specs and tran/ferro can get sniped for hidden power) or another tapu to get rid of terrain but fini/koko arent very good lol. i think this deserves a suspect test due to its power/limiting teambuilding/making multiple other mons insane/running the entire tier lol
 
Last edited:

TheFourthChaser

#TimeForChange
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Two-Time Past SPL Championis a Past WCoP Champion
Skymin is broken same as usual, what has changed to make this not so?

Let's do a quick recap of the same argument for the umpteenth time because it really feels like people aren't considering this shit against Skymin. It is mechanically broken-- it carries over to every metagame and generation in which its ability to rip holes through either Seed Flares or its likely denial of turns through Air Slash is undeterred. This is to say: if Serene Grace or any of its RNG tools aren't directly nerfed it will be just as good as it was before.

Even if Skymin doesn't get those odds in a given turn its something a player has to consider when facing it, am I to assume an 80% SpD drop isn't going to happen? Should I rely on the miss? Hoping these events don't happen just adds to the nasty RNG mess that Skymin brings along with it.

If you are struggling with opposing skymin you need to adjust your style of play and team building. Having speed control has always been important; skymin is relatively frail and depends heavily on its speed. TR and TW removes skymins biggest strength.
This is a ridiculous statement. "You should be prepared to lose all your SpD and not move for a turn or two" like what the hell is that? Speed control IS a fair approach toward beating Skymin but the argument assumes the Skymin team does not also have speed control of some sort which has an extra scoop of silly thrown in when you consider that Skymin itself can learn Tailwind. Trick Room seems like the best approach toward beating it but we didn't get better setters than Cresselia, which has unmatched bulk and Ice Beam (or even Icy Wind), and wasn't enough to stop Skymin in Gen VI. Naturally outspeeding it is a decent option since we got Tapu Koko but lost Talonflame. Mega Salamence, especially with the buff in Mega speed mechanics, seems to be the strongest available check so have fun running M-Mence on every team I guess.

Basically, the RNG elements Skymin adds to the metagame (or any metagame) is broken and promotes an unhealthy environment. It takes a lot more work to prevent the drops/flinches than it does to get them in the first place.
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
i mean skymin "wasn't supposed" to be banned in ORAS, but they dropped the ban requirement from the usual 60% to simple majority. I wasn't particularly sad to see it go, but let's just say that skymin was a controversial suspect even in ORAS, and I personally haven't considered the issue around skymin "resolved."

I think Skymin is struggling to earn a spot on a team in SM. It just doesn't contribute much to a team relying on Tapu Lele and Mega Mence, getting walled by the same threats like Celesteela or Jirachi. I guess it fits on a team with Charizard Y, although the Rock Slide weakness can be annoying. It doesn't appreciate the increased usage of Icy Wind, either. It's fast, but not particularly powerful or bulky like Mega Mence, and it relies a lot on inconsistent flinches to stay alive. Skymin does NOT offer many critical resistances to the team, which can add more pressure on the rest of the teammates. More often than not, it can't score KOs as effortlessly as Mega Mence or Tapu Lele. Skymin can be a high-maintenance Pokémon, which may not be worth the effort when there are far stronger nukes that are easier to use, and esp when ur trying to make ur team airtight (anti-aerilate) and fire-proof.
 
Last edited:

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
It takes a lot more work to prevent the drops/flinches than it does to get them in the first place.
Your whole argument is oversimplified. You didn't even account for positioning, the most important aspect of the game.
I'm sure you'll reply with another small minded thought like "how can you get into position when I can flich you to death, it's unhealthy!"
Try skymin + what ever vs CharY+aegi.
Or skymin + whatever vs kyurem+togekiss
Or skymin + whatever vs Jirachi+salamance
Or skymin + whatever vs any hail team
I could go on...
And you completely ignored the part where I basically said skymin ain't shit vs literally any good mon behind a sub
Or is having these types of cores too much to ask?
It's extremely frustrating when you come to these discussions state exaggerations and over simplifications like this
You should be prepared to lose all your SpD and not move for a turn or two
so have fun running M-Mence on every team I guess.
ability to rip holes through either Seed Flares or its likely denial of turns through Air Slash is undeterred.
Also I am so sick of hearing people say the words "broken" and "unhealthy"
They are cop-out words used to avoid real thought and discussion
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top