Moving to Showdown

Should we make game channels in Pokemon Showdown instead of IRC?


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So I posted about this on an earlier thread and I wanted to hear what other people think. I'm planning on hosting a Survivor-like game this summer (that will actually hopefully finish), but I think this is a p. important topic just in general if we are thinking about the future of Smogmafia.

Do we even consider moving to Showdown? Does it even matter where game channels are located? I think the upside, as I put in the other thread is that it's really user friendly, no need to setup on IRC, and there's a higher chance that random users will discover mafia. I can't see what IRC really does better then PS other than nostalgia's sake (and maybe logs can't be saved on PS?? Dunno about that but we seem to moving away from that anyways). Of course, it may not really matter, but I figure for future games it may be worth a shot.

w.r.t integrating with PS mafia, I'm not so sure that's a great idea. I feel like forum mafia here is such a different animal than most mafias that keeping things separate might be best to keep people from getting confused and also respecting the PS people's space with regards to the mafia community they've created there. That's not to say that we can't work together or anything, but I think it might be better to start out by just having our own channel and seeing if that affects new users coming to play or anything like that and then deciding if we want to grow from there. It just feels to me that the direction smogon is moving is towards everything being on PS, with IRC seeming like it's being more and more left behind (but then again, I'm not really up-to-date with stuff, so feel free to correct any of this if I'm wrong).

Also if I forgot something/left a response out feel free to just reply with your thoughts.
 

UncleSam

Leading this village
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I've been speaking with the other mods and I think there's more or less universal agreement that we should at least try to let people discuss on Showdown (not necessarily remove IRC but simply adjust requirements to be 'use IRC or Showdown' rather than just IRC). Whether that involves creating our own room or using the established mafia room on Showdown is another discussion to be had, but given that they have their own community I'd suggest that it is more polite to make our own room for forum mafia discussion and talk with owners of the Showdown Mafia room about ways to cross-advertise (ie link to each other's rooms, and so forth).

rssp1 any thoughts on this?
 
PS is a pain on mobile devices in a way that IRC isn't as much (I mean, if you want to use it for chatting), but if we were going to use 24/7 activity as a benchmark we'd probably still be playing on IRC right now so I anticipate the days of people standing on toilets to get reception to get and send in their actions are over (was that you DLE? it was someone in Raikage's pokémafia). That's my only real qualm about it, having to use potentially 2-3 different platforms (forum PMs/IRC/PS... Skype even) to find people. Then again I'm lazy and spend half my time in bed so aside from the multiplatform problems I'm probably exaggerating its problems, it definitely outweighs people having trouble using IRC (remember some people don't know how to copy/paste)

I really want to emphasise the importance of forum conversations in games going forward
 
I've been speaking with the other mods and I think there's more or less universal agreement that we should at least try to let people discuss on Showdown (not necessarily remove IRC but simply adjust requirements to be 'use IRC or Showdown' rather than just IRC). Whether that involves creating our own room or using the established mafia room on Showdown is another discussion to be had, but given that they have their own community I'd suggest that it is more polite to make our own room for forum mafia discussion and talk with owners of the Showdown Mafia room about ways to cross-advertise (ie link to each other's rooms, and so forth).

rssp1 any thoughts on this?
I don't think using the showdown room itself for OC discussion is a good idea since we generally have games running in there whenever the room isnt dead / whenever people want to play. Whenever we have had OC games, all oog discussion is done via PMs on the forums or PMs on Showdown.

Cross-advertising is fine with me and I doubt there'd be anyone opposed to it, i'm just not sure how successful it would be since most of the people who play on PS generally dislike forum mafia (I know this because we generally have difficulty getting signups for games, although it definitely is possible to get enough people after some time). I could let people know if we're having signups for games on our forums and let PS people know if there are new games here, if that's what you guys wanted.
 
I'm a little creeped out by the PS rules and the admins' perceived willingness to go through users PM logs. I'd kinda rather be centered on a platform that won't start censoring words in PM, or crack down on game creativity.

Maybe I waste too much time on twitch, but I think that could be a good platform for centralizing mafia chat. It has a wide userbase and it's very easy to set up an account, and can be reached via mIRC or other clients as well (so you aren't forced to deal with a shitty interface). I think a low entry barrier for both new and old players is probably the most important thing. It would also provide an obvious method for post-game analysis and regular mafia discussions. (Though I don't envision streaming being used regularly.)

I think reaching out the PS community is a good idea, and if you're interested, playing the games in the room, but I really don't see myself idling in PS the same way I could see myself idling in an IRC room. (Nor could I really see PS handling 5 different PM windows at once.)
 
billy is right, a lot of our games violate the PS rules (PG-13 ones mostly, see here e.g. http://pokemonshowdown.com/rules) pretty badly + I'm not sure how some things would be looked on there (since socialisation would occur there too). didn't think of that.

also twitch could be annoying because it's quite restricted on an irc client server-side (e.g. no userlist)
 
I'm aware twitch isn't as configurable as other IRC networks, but I'm kinda lost on the technical details (I've only connected via mIRC a few times, and all a long time ago). I'm not even sure private messages exist via twitch IRC. If anyone's familiar with the details, let me know.
 
That's a fair point billy, I also am sort of concerned as to what exactly "moderators deem inappropriate" and admins looking through PMs sounds very suspect as well. I can't say have that much experience with the simulator itself and how it handles PMs so I'll take your word on that. Twitch is an interesting idea. Would you envision someone creating a central channel where users could congregate and discuss games? I guess we don't need to have a stream going to chat so that would work.

billy is right, a lot of our games violate the PS rules (PG-13 ones mostly, see here e.g. http://pokemonshowdown.com/rules) pretty badly + I'm not sure how some things would be looked on there (since socialisation would occur there too). didn't think of that.
What rules exactly do our games violate though? Like I see how "moderator discretion" could be a problem in terms of not knowing if a game has some element that violates that rule, but otherwise I don't really see any specific rules that would seem to restrict smogmafia. That being said I'm not really in the know about how PS is moderated but if it would appear that the mods there would be severely restricting people's ability to create games, then I think in that case it would be better off staying on IRC or another platform where we would be relatively free to moderate ourselves.
 
I'm thinking one central channel, 'smogmafia' or similar. Chatroom is always open, all mods (or list of users) have stream key. I'm not sure how private channels could work, but I believe users that are not playing could set their profile to private, then add people who could visit their chat (as mafia channels).

As for PS rules, I'm not sure Unclesam's investigative reports would be permitted. Though Walrein might be ok with this.
 

UncleSam

Leading this village
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
CT*

I meant like what specifically did you think I've done on IRC that would be against the rules on Showdown? Like I actually don't know what you're referring to and it seems like there is something there (or at least I don't know the rules of Showdown well enough to know that there isn't).
 

Ampharos

tag walls, punch fascists
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
sam he's referring to the fact that my post in your sig is pretty explicit and probably is in violation of this ps rule:



that being said, i have no qualms with moving to PS if we think it'll make realtime chat more accessible, and unless someone was planning on making pornstars mafia i don't think the rules should really hamper our creativity in any way
 

UncleSam

Leading this village
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I have no idea what that has to do with 'Unclesam's investigative reports' but whatever, thanks for answering a simple question Walrein.

If literally any mention of sex and all-caps are against the rules then I'd be on board to try out Twitch or another platform instead. I understand why Showdown doesn't want to have to deal with that stuff but having restrictive rules on speech hurts a lot more when you want to use the platform specifically to talk to other people rather than play Pokemon.
 
According to the rules we can opt out of the chat portion of the rules so I don't think there's any problem with that (given that we would be a private channel and would all agree to it...)
 

Zarel

Not a Yuyuko fan
is a Site Content Manageris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
I'm a little creeped out by the PS rules and the admins' perceived willingness to go through users PM logs. I'd kinda rather be centered on a platform that won't start censoring words in PM, or crack down on game creativity.
This may be a misread.

Most admins have no ability to go through PM logs. PM logs are very heavily locked down and only chaos and I have access to it.

chaos has gone through PM logs zero times and doesn't even know how

So far, I've gone through PM logs:

2 times, to confirm reports of sexual roleplaying, from someone who they supposedly did it with

5 times, when there was disagreement about whether or not a log was forged

All of these cases were done after one person in the conversation had already given us Pastebin logs, and gave consent for us to go through their other logs to assess context and verify that they weren't forged. In the case of the sexual roleplaying cases, I did a keyword search to see who else they had done sexual roleplaying with.

We do not go through PM logs without serious reason to.
 

UncleSam

Leading this village
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Well I think we can agree that a sexual roleplaying ban isn't going to impact mafia play lol

In forum mafia, however, forging of logs is not only allowed it is pseduo-encouraged, due to the fundamental nature lying has in these games. I presume that forging of PM logs with regards to playing mafia wouldn't fall under the purview of what you're discussing?
 

Yeti

dark saturday
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
We're definitely not looking to have some cybering going on during our mafias (if there is it's not a part of the game/at the host's wishes) or anything shady you'd need to be like "do I need to read these mafia PMs" about. Plus I think this community is like 93% straight males - 1 female (me) - 1 nonbinary (pluff) - 2% gay/bi males, maybe? I lose track of if we have any other non-males actively playing. It's too much of a het sausagefest for anyone to cyber lmao.

I think the concern is just can we keep our confidential conversations, confidential, or fake them as part of our game methodology. If a mafia faction discusses stuff they don't want anyone else to know, nobody's going to read and Freudian slip. Also if we can make use of ALLCAPS and some sexual/explicit content without it being "/me kisses your <REDACTED>" cause that ain't what we're about, but it might be flavor in a game. Our currently-running game is in fact part of a series of ALLCAPS-themed games where the titles are in capital letters and so are factions so I think that's more what we don't want limited since caps and some crude back and forth humor/descriptions are a part of some games or the community banter.

I'd need to go on PS to see how it compares to IRC for logs and usability for mafias. Maybe something we want to change is how each game has a splinter channel and instead we just use one big #mafia or #circus channel for each game? Which could be done by transferring the owner status to the game host but retaining the password to the ownership for use by the mods/chan founder if needed. Or setting the hosts as SOPs when they host their games and having the chan owner de-owner themselves upon joining the channel/not activating their status so nobody is confused on who to talk to. The mods/CCs could be AOPs.
 
I was more concerned that the rules as stated would lead to a site-wide ban of a list of words or sites, similar to BAN ME PLEASE or like a g-line on IRC. Given the 'under no circumstances' phrasing of the rules, that honestly seems like the simplest thing to do. I'm probably bleeding my distaste of censors into what should be mafia discussion, so if no one else has concerns, I'll let it go.
 

Zarel

Not a Yuyuko fan
is a Site Content Manageris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
Creator of PS
Well I think we can agree that a sexual roleplaying ban isn't going to impact mafia play lol

In forum mafia, however, forging of logs is not only allowed it is pseduo-encouraged, due to the fundamental nature lying has in these games. I presume that forging of PM logs with regards to playing mafia wouldn't fall under the purview of what you're discussing?
Yeah, obviously. We're talking about forging PM logs specifically in the context of trying to determine whether a ban or mute was legitimate.

I was more concerned that the rules as stated would lead to a site-wide ban of a list of words or sites, similar to BAN ME PLEASE or like a g-line on IRC. Given the 'under no circumstances' phrasing of the rules, that honestly seems like the simplest thing to do. I'm probably bleeding my distaste of censors into what should be mafia discussion, so if no one else has concerns, I'll let it go.
PS has automated filters in PMs (that are stricter than private rooms, which have essentially no filters), but under no circumstances can we see or punish someone for triggering filters in PMs.

The "no sex under any circumstances" is because we don't like the idea of sexual predators using PS rooms (which have a lot of underage people) to find "prey". I really don't think you'll be affected by that rule.

I think the concern is just can we keep our confidential conversations, confidential, or fake them as part of our game methodology. If a mafia faction discusses stuff they don't want anyone else to know, nobody's going to read and Freudian slip. Also if we can make use of ALLCAPS and some sexual/explicit content without it being "/me kisses your <REDACTED>" cause that ain't what we're about, but it might be flavor in a game. Our currently-running game is in fact part of a series of ALLCAPS-themed games where the titles are in capital letters and so are factions so I think that's more what we don't want limited since caps and some crude back and forth humor/descriptions are a part of some games or the community banter.
We have basically zero rules in private rooms (other than "don't use it as a staging ground to harass other rooms" and "follow US laws"). The allcaps stuff is in no way going to be an issue.
 

Yeti

dark saturday
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
seems legit then we don't rly want to be fostering pedos to creep on kiddies anw just goof off with caps and walrein the masturbator/unclesam gets blueballed if he isnt leading a village jokes.

one thing about phasing out IRC/moving to PS/etc is i think for Bigs we lose something. smalls have sort of phased out irc channel use for the mafias and village bc there just aren't enough people regularly on esp once they start dying to warrant a channel but how many of us remember early games where we got placed on the mafia in a Big and get invited to that sacred secret mafia channel with The Squad and it felt like we were really scum and involved. we got to watch the pros on our team lead and plan and rage.

i think in the next Big if we want to build up a sense of community/highlight the social aspect we may want to use mafia irc channels (and village) again and encourage ppl to come on and hang out to plan instead of just in their forums... idk you just miss something if you don't have that active channel buzz.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
if you can get your hands on some global voices one way or another you can create groupchats
 
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