Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

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This may be a bit jumbled and have flow issues but anyways at the moment one of the more pressing mons I've found in this meta is Magearna, I've found it very hard to play airound at times especially given the offensive support it has from fairy and the defensive it has on steel. Starting on the support it has on Steel, the major offerings steel mono has to magearna is hazard stacking, with reliable deterrents to hazard removal to keep them on the field. Magearna pretty much thrives off of this kind of support, the hazards provide reliable chip damage on some of its bulkier checks such as Alolan Muk, AV Buzzwole, Chansey and Zapdos to name a few which can then help in securing a KO on these mons, a second bonus it has is due to it's ability with Soul Heart activating whenever something on the field faints including by hazard damage switchins. These two points can then combine into it's ease of set up, coming in on a mon that cannot properly check it forcing them out into their check which may already be weakened or maybe not at all allowing it to set up making it near impossible to check offensively as only the fastest scarfers such as Scarfninja have a hope of beating it out in terms of speed. From there it begins to snowball until it is uncheckable, I personally have played multiple games where the game will be evenly matched until magearna gets the set up and cleans especially against dark. This is just on the Shift gear set, further issues it causes is its lack of true predictability, it can viably run 3-4 z-move those being on its STAB's, All out Pummeling and even Gigavolt havok to punch through toxapex but it is impossible to know which of these it will run until it's actually being used unless you have a frisk mon. Of course there are other sets such as Assault vest which is extremely stubborn to take down not to mention extremely supportive to the rest of the team thanks to its typing and the ability to slow volt switch allowing it to easily gain momentum by forcing switches volt switching out and bringing in appropriate checks which can further help magearna's ability to clean later in the game. The sets arent without their cons however, as they can suffer from a 4MSS at times being unable to cover everything it would want to however it is only one mon on a team of 6 so those it cant check can easily be patched up by the rest of the team.
On to Fairy, Magearna isn't as much of a threatening mon as it is when on steel as its defensive support is lesser however in terms of offensive support it has plenty with Tapu Bulu and KoKo providing solid wall breaking support to punch through the mons that would otherwise harm magearnas ability to sweep such as Zapdos, Chansey and Alolan Muk without the need on hazard support makes it rather potent while unable to pick up boosts like it would on steel it doesn't always need them as much to make itself known in the game.
Of course this is not to say that magearna is good solely on it support, as it sports 80 115 115 Bulk with arguably the best defensive typing in the game with a respectable 130 SpA to back that bulk up means its no slouch, its speed stat while lacking at base 65 is still enough to outpace many scarfed mons as previously mentioned when at +2 which is never hard to reach thanks to the aforementioned bulk. Overall I just find Magearna to be a bit of an unhealthy presence within the meta game (I feel I am missing some things but I'll come back to it an add those in at a later point)
 
Completely ignorant monotype noob here. So I noticed on the flying viability ranking that staraptor isnt ranked, but it is for normal. Is staraptor banned on flying teams, or is it just not worth using and therefore not ranked?
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
Completely ignorant monotype noob here. So I noticed on the flying viability ranking that staraptor isnt ranked, but it is for normal. Is staraptor banned on flying teams, or is it just not worth using and therefore not ranked?
It simply doesn't have any noticeable viability on Flying teams from the standpoint of the VR Council and the upper community.
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
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Here's something exciting. Pidgeotite and Steelixite are the next mega stones to be released.



How do you think this will impact the metagame? Normal has been deprived of megas since the beginning of the generation and it sorely misses having one, so this will be a nice change. Steelix will probably be just as irrelevant as it was last generation, but maybe it'll find a niche for itself.

Feel free to discuss Beedrillite as well since it should be legal very soon.
 
Mega Pidgeot

Normal- much better against fighting, bug. A little easier versus dark/ghost, just because they can't go into megasab/mandibuzz lightly, and it can force out the other team members to its nice base speed. Might be nice in matchup versus psychic as well. Workup sets should be decent versus water and poison*(if nihilego is already dead). Might pose threat to fairy teams that don't run screens. Heat wave doesn't do enough against any competent steel to prevent the inevitable. I see it as neutral to worse than normal's current options against the other types.

Flying- if it gets a CC challenge it will be relatively painless, but it'll be ignored before and after.
 
Although Pidgeot is helpful, I'm not sure I'd be able to find room for it on most of my balance teams, but it seems fine on HO. I think that lopunny would be more helpful but we aren't getting that, so on to something else.
===


scp come back (Cobalion) @ Occa Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
I first saw this in a replay from eien's tour (cobalion vs zard happens on turn 14 and yes i know this replay has metagross but that's beside the point) and thought it was a pretty cool check to Char-X and other physical fire-types as well as being an alternative lead option to skarmory on HO steel.

some calcs:
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Occa Berry Cobalion: 306-361 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - lives even after 2 rocks switchins
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Occa Berry Cobalion: 196-232 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Occa Berry Cobalion: 237-280 (61.3 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Occa Berry Cobalion: 249-294 (64.5 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (you could argue that this would just use a ground move but bonemerang does 86 max)

edit: forgot to include this since it was late but you can also use stone edge to hit stuff over taunt like volcarona, zardy, -1 victini although zardy and volcarona ohko it so you might not want to miss risks. (volcarona is a roll at +1 but its not in cobas favor and inferno overdrive ohkos at +0)
 
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Vid

Our life is what our thoughts make it
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Possible Impact of Future Changes to the Monotype Metagame
So now that Mega Beedrill is going to be released very soon. I wanted to make a quick post talking about it's possible impacts on the Monotype metagame as a whole.

Beedrill-Mega @ Beedrillite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Drill Run
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off / Fell Stinger
Brief run down of the set
The set is very simple and easy to understand.U-turn is primarily used for momentum and gets a 1.5 boost from Adaptability. Poison Jab is main STAB move and also gets 1.5 boost from Adaptability on top of its STAB. Drill Run is used to hit steel-types such as, Heatran and Magnezone. Knock Off can be used to hit Ghost-types and also has the added luxury of Knocking of items, namely Eviolite from Chansey and Porygon2. Fell Stinger is another option, which is used to make Mega Beedrill a threatening late game sweeper. Feller Stinger boost the user's attack by three stages if it KOs a Pokemon, which makes Mega Beedrill almost impossible to switch into. Fell Stinger is very situational and depends on Mega Beedrill's teammates to weaken foes.
The Mega Evolution buff (Beedrill has its base 145 Speed right away), which frees up a move. Typically, Beedrill would have to drop Knock Off, but with this Buff Beedrill has great filler options in Fell Stinger and Knock Off being the most notable
On Poison Mega Beedrill seems to be very appealing especially on more offensively based Poison teams. Although, I still think Offensive Poison Builds are still sub optimal even with Mega Beedrill, but they gained a major upgrade. Now a team of a Stealth Rocker (Nidoking or Nidoqueen both can be used), Gengar, Muk-Alola, Nihilego, then a filler can be used somewhat successfully. I still find this playstyle to be outclassed by balanced Poison builds with Mega Venusaur that have countied to dominate in Sun and Moon Monotype. I still think Mega Beedrill will be overshadowed, but I can see offensive Poison builds maybe popping up in tours once in a while especially against offensive teams, sicne it has a great matchup against majority of them. Although most of the common offensive builds Mega Venusaur can deal with just as well if not better. Matchups such as Electric, Water, and Fighting are matchups Mega Beedrill excels in, but in those matchups specifically a Mega Venusaur does a better job and on top of that can be paired with other bulkier Pokemon namely, Toxapex. However, in matchups, such as Psychic and Dark Mega Beedrill is a great tool and is better than Scolipede in those matchups because of U-Turn and blistering speed stat. One of the major things that allows Mega Beedrill to be such a huge threat to these teams is the ability to constantly pivot with U-turn. With U-turn Mega Beedrill constantly wears down Mega Sableye on Dark teams and Slowbro on Psychic teams. Do I think Mega Beedrill will be the go to option on Poison? Of course not because the opportunity cost of not using Mega Venusaur is way too high. But, I do think Mega Beedrill can preform a niche role on offensive Poison teams as a great momentum gainer. Yes Mega Beedrill seems to be a great niche Pokemon on offensive Poison teams.
I have seen a lot of people sleep on Mega Beedrill on bug, which is understandable because of the continued dominance of Mega Pinsir. One thing I've noticed is Bug teams in Sun and Moon struggle to check certain threats and just lose certain matchups because of the lack of a extremely fast and powerful Pokemon. Some of major things Mega Beedrill checks are Tapu Koko, Greninja and Tapu Fini. One of Bug's biggest matchup problems in Sun and Moon has been fairy, a team of Klefki, Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, and Magearna is extremely hard to break for a bug team. Bug without Mega Beedrill often needs to rely on offensive Volcarona to beat these threats, granted Volcarona especially with Firium Z can break the fairy core, but it is often a near impossibility in practice. This is mainly because of Volcarona loses half of its HP if Stealth Rock is up and it being extremely vulnerable to status because of the lack of a Lum Berry. Also Mega Beedrill opens up holes for Swords Dance Scizor as well getting rid of one of its best offensive checks in Tapu Koko. There is a similar situation with Electric because unlike Mega Pinsir Mega Beedrill isn't a liability against electric and can easily revenge kill threats such as, Tapu Koko and Choice Scarf Magnezone. This gives offensive Volcarona a better chance to sweep the electric team. Mega Beedrill isn't without its faults being a liability against Flying. It also struggles against Ghost, Steel, and Ground to be effective. Mega Pinsir is the premier Mega option on Bug because it's flying STAB is very valuable to any bug team. It is extremely good against the extremely dominant Water teams, able to sweep most water teams with little to no effort. Mega Pinsir unlike Beedrill has respectable bulk on both sides, not just special defense, meaning it can take some hits. Mega Pinsir unlike Mega Beedrill almost guarantees matchups such as Fighting, Grass, and helps a lot in Bug mirrors. Mega Pinsir is a lot less likely to be useless. I think Mega Beedrill will take on a sort of anti-metagame role on bug teams to combat the plethora of Fairy and Electric teams seen on the ladder and in tours.
I think Mega Beedrill is an excellent second option on both Bug and Poison. It seems to be the anti metagame Mega similar to how Mega Heracross on Bug was, but probably not as good.
How does everyone think about Mega Beedrill? I know it isn't on Pokemon Showdown yet (it will be soon), but I'm so excited to see even the smallest change in the Monotype metagame.

My Brief Thoughts on Mega Pidgeot and Mega Steelix
I'm only going to be talking about types these two Megas might be relevant on, so I won't talk about Mega Steelix on Steel and Mega Pidgeot on Flying
Mega Pidgeot (Normal)
I find this interesting, but I still think Mega Pidgeot won't live up to the hype (Might be wrong), but it just seems to be extremely average. It has great Speed and No Guard Hurricane, but outside of that it seems to be out of meta. Types it has a great matchup against, namely as Fighting, Grass, and Bug aren't very good in the current metagame. While, Electric has become a solid type in Sun and Moon(Mega Pidgeot is dead weight against Electric). I think Mega Pidgeot might be used just to have a Mega, but Normal probably won't become extremely viable with it. #FreeMegaLopunny
Mega Steelix (Ground)
I saw a couple Ground teams that used Mega Steelix to some success in the tail end of ORAS Monotype. Mega Steelix may be a bit better because many new fairy-types introduced in Sun and Moon. I still think this will be a creative option to use like it was in ORAS. This should diversify teambuilding a little bit, which is great.
I want to hear everyone's thoughts on these future changes and how they may or may not impact the Monotype Metagame.
 
I don't know how much of a splash Mega-Beedrill is going to make, if only because it has a massive opportunity cost on both Poison and Bug teams.

Even on offensively oriented Poison teams I feel like Mega-Venusaur can still offer more with bulky offensive sets. Scolipede is also far more efficient and effective at C-teaming psychic than Mega-Bee and doesn't cost a mega-slot. It can't generate momentum with U-turn, sure, but is poison offensively potent enough to abuse that momentum? Idk, I guess we'll see when it's released, but I don't see Mega-Bee being any more relevant this gen than the last.
 
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Mega Beedrill will probably being seeing quite a bit of use on HO Poison teams considering it gets U-Turn unlike Scolipede plus the fact that Amoonguss can work as a semi-replacement to Mega Venusaur. Bug teams on the other hand have a much harder time fitting Mega Bee in due to the larger oppurtunity cost but it can work well in a VoltTurn core with the likes of Scizor, Galvantula, Forretress (don't ask how this thing gets volt switch but not u-turn), and Vikavolt respectively.
 
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Lilymoding

formerly Kyosuru Jets
I think Mega Beedrill will get a decent chunk of usage on poison, especially in a HO core with Nihilego and Nidoking. It adds a much needed role of momentum conservation that HO Poison is lacking at the moment. Nihilego's not-so-robust movepool leaves it mostly as a revenge kill mon (given you're running scarf) which pairs really nicely with Mega Beedrill's strong pivot. A pivot to Nidoking forces out a lot of what gives Megadrill/Nihilego problems, notably most steel types (Drill Run only does so much lol). It also subs quite nicely for scolipede, meaning you dont need to bank on megahorn anymore, if that matters. Overall I think Megadrill's strong U-turn is what HO Poison needs most. However, Megadrill doesn't help in the ground matchup as much as Scolipede can, but either one you choose, vs ground is a bit shaky for the Poison team, leaving MegaVenu frankly a better option for that matchup.
 
I feel that the introduction of Pidgeottite into the meta is interesting. It may struggle to find its place on normal teams but with the change to the mega mechanics it will be more useful in the fighting matchup than it was last gen as it can offensively check keldeo from the get go. Not to mention the coverage of hurricane and heatwave being solid and its ability to gain fast momentum alongside raptors slower momentum gain it could prove to be potent. However as previously mentioned it does have issues fitting into a team as of now due to the power behind PZ that being said pidgeot could be interesting on more dedicated offensive Normal teams.
 

Lilymoding

formerly Kyosuru Jets
[long post incoming, if you're hungover skip to the tl;dr]
(post made with assistance from The-Vale )
[edit: changed to actually tag vale)
Can we talk about Magearna?

This thing is monstrous. Not only does it have one of the best typings in the game, it boasts impressive 80/115/115 bulk on top of that, a movepool developed enough to allow a decent assault vest set (adding onto its already good bulk), an outstanding shift gear set, a potential calm mind set, etc. The combination of this pokemon's bulk and typing leaves types such as Water, dark, and fighting with a limited supply of checks. Not much on these types can provide reliable pressure to stop it from setting itself up, and if it's assault vest, it serves as one of the best defensive pivots in the game. It's defensive without needing to ACT like it (especially with the SpAtk boost on each kill), making it a nightmare to try to play around, especially with limited checks.

Starting from square one, viable moves:​
  • Aura Sphere
  • Energy Ball
  • Flash Cannon
  • Fleur Cannon
  • Focus Blast
  • Ice Beam
  • Shadow Ball
  • Shift Gear (or calm mind, but cmind is less viable given its base 65 speed)
  • Thunderbolt
  • Volt Switch
This is an impressive list of moves, but it is nowhere near the point to consider it broken on moveset alone. It's what Magearna can do with that moveset is the problem. Fleur Cannon / Flash Cannon / Aura Sphere / Volt Switch on an assault vest set manages to check (or at least provide great amounts of pressure) on most Dark teams, only really being "walled" by Muk-Alola, but Muk-Alola's retaliation to Magearna is less than thrilling...
Calcs:
0 SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 68-80 (18.7 - 22%) -- possible 5HKO
240+ Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 66-78 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 153-181 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 94-112 (22.7 - 27%) -- 48% chance to 4HKO

Most, if not all, of Dark's offensive "checks" (notably specs Hydreigon, Alolan Muk) rely on either the Magearna being a set-up set, or landing a knock off. Assault Vest Magearna (with the vest ON) ignores all of these. Krookodile can check, but only if you're running sash, LO, or Band.
Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Magearna: 308-364 (102.3 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 206-244 (56.7 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 1020-1200 (313.8 - 369.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 270-320 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 270-320 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 626-738 (189.1 - 222.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Magearna: 100-118 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Magearna: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


The coup de grâce, however, would be Magearna's outstanding team support.

Magearna happens to be located on two teams who excel on getting hazards out, reliably punishing the other team for the switches that Magearna forces. It has the team support to reliably deal with any of the checks that Fighting, Dark, Water, etc. bring to the table.
Checks rundown:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 181-214 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 56-66 (15.4 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 102-120 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. Flash Fire Heatran: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time


252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Muk-Alola Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 148-176 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 426-504 (102.8 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Magearna Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 124-146 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 182-216 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 338-400 (111.1 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 265-315 (87.1 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 205-244 (56.4 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 343-405 (117 - 138.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 300-354 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 144-171 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 94-111 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- 69.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery



Honestly, very few times have I seen so many types left with so little options:
Talonflame vs Grass, Fighting, and Bug
Kyurem White vs Steel and Poison
Genesect vs Dragon, Flying, and Grass

You get the point.

It's a monster momentum machine with disgustingly good team support, but it does one thing to help the meta, however: It acts as a solid check to Greninja, a pokemon that I strongly want a serious discussion brought up about, but I strongly recommend a suspect on Magearna before that.

[tl;dr Magearna is actually a monster with a strong movepool, solid stats/bulk, and absolutely wonderful team support and should get suspected, although acknowledging its role in acting as a check to Greninja]





 
Three posts on suspecting Magearna in just this page, so I feel a bit obligated to at least respond to some of these arguments. These are my personal thoughts on the matter.

Most types that lose to Magearna are bad regardless of it. Comparing it to Talonflame, Kyurem-W, and Genesect doesn't help your case because it's just not the same. Magearna is much more comparable to Mega Scizor, which also capitalizes on the problems that bad types tend to have. The types that Magearna dismantles will not magically be great types if it's banned, which couldn't be said for ORAS Flying, Steel, Bug, and Fighting. Is Magearna really all that's holding back "amazing" types like Ice, Fighting, Rock, Dragon, and Dark? Probably not because they have bigger issues. The tiering philosophy does not favor any type over another, so whether or not any one type completely loses to a Pokemon has no real bearing.

Having a large number of viable sets is not necessary indicative of anything, especially because they even all share the same coverage. Magearna's not like Hoopa-U where you could almost just lose if you don't guess the correct set and accidentally lose a wall. Realistically, Magearna should only run certain attacking moves: Fleur Cannon or Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt or Volt Switch, Aura Sphere or Focus Blast, and finally Flash Cannon if it's using four attacks. Pretty much every other attack is bad. It has access to a lot of moves, but moves like Ice Beam and Energy Ball are absolutely terrible because they don't contribute meaningful coverage. You really shouldn't be surprised when you see coverage coming from Magearna because it's always the same. Similarly, if you have a Choice Specs Magearna check, it usually checks Shift Gear and Assault Vest anyway. If you can check Assault Vest or Shift Gear, you can probably check the other one too. Obviously this isn't perfect and doesn't always apply, but that's part of skillful playing and building. Most of its sets share the same checks, so unpredictability really doesn't factor in much.

It would help if there was actually concrete evidence that Magearna is broken because I'm not seeing much here. I'm not determinedly for or against Magearna, but the content and direction of these past three posts have just really not been there. Replays are much appreciated, but they should be of good games that actually highlight Magearna being used and having influence in the battle.
 

Namranan

:)))))))))))
Just wanted to make a small comment on what Eien said, I feel like magearna is like a combo of volcorona and celesteela. Its like volcorona because once it gets momentum it can almost never be stopped, and its like celesteela because of its multiple sets and tankiness.

To be honest I think magearna is fine in mono, I haven't really had a match where I felt completely hopeless against a certain team because they had a magearna. Heck, I've actually beaten a few teams that used magearna with fighting which is apparently impossible so clearly it was luck.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-539775526 (beating mag on steel)

Now I'm not using this as proof that mag isn't broken perse, but rather to show that it is manageable to say the least. Anyhow if mag was truly broken I think I would be seeing a little more often in ladder than I am now.

To those struggling to beat mag: Find a good special wall or someone who can soak up mag's attacks, and punish it.

I haven't gone against AV mag though so I do wonder what that would be like.
 

Ridley

lofi hip hop radio - beats to relax/study to
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Just wanted to make a small comment on what Eien said, I feel like magearna is like a combo of volcorona and celesteela. Its like volcorona because once it gets momentum it can almost never be stopped, and its like celesteela because of its multiple sets and tankiness.

To be honest I think magearna is fine in mono, I haven't really had a match where I felt completely hopeless against a certain team because they had a magearna. Heck, I've actually beaten a few teams that used magearna with fighting which is apparently impossible so clearly it was luck.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-539775526 (beating mag on steel)

Now I'm not using this as proof that mag isn't broken perse, but rather to show that it is manageable to say the least. Anyhow if mag was truly broken I think I would be seeing a little more often in ladder than I am now.

To those struggling to beat mag: Find a good special wall or someone who can soak up mag's attacks, and punish it.

I haven't gone against AV mag though so I do wonder what that would be like.
I am not for or against Magearna, but this argument is completely invalid. All that replay shows is that you had a type advantage and got lucky with sleep turns. It isn't hard to beat a steel team with a fighting team. When people say fighting can't beat Magearna, they are referring to Magearna on fairy because the fairy team in general is what fighting can't break. And the only special wall that truly counters magearna is Chansey, every other mon I can think of gets easily worn down. Also, there are little to no pokemon that can switch into a hit from Magearna and kill it. Yes, there are pokemon that can outspeed and KO Magearna, but other than Dugtrio, Magearna can switch out of all of them and continue wreaking havoc on the team when given free switches.
 

Lilymoding

formerly Kyosuru Jets
...Magearna is much more comparable to Mega Scizor, which also capitalizes on the problems that bad types tend to have. The types that Magearna dismantles will not magically be great types if it's banned, which couldn't be said for ORAS Flying, Steel, Bug, and Fighting. ...

...The tiering philosophy does not favor any type over another, so whether or not any one type completely loses to a Pokemon has no real bearing.
Those are really great points honestly. I did some calcs and ran through some things in my head and I have no choice but to rescind my previous statement lol, it wasn't built on a solid foundation. I would say the best comparison would be the relationship between Kyurem-Black and Water: obnoxious, has a good moveset/typing to handle that type, but not broken in it's own merit. Magearna is just an excellent mon with excellent typing and great presence, not busted. I no longer consider Magearna to need a suspect~ Thanks Eien
 
Ok so im on mobile so this won't be visually appealing but its all I got lol.

So firstly, saying that the types magearna beats are bad anyways isn't a fair statement since some sets can completely shut down types like ground, and flying while also making matchups extremely skewed all on its own.

Magearna @ Air Balloon/shuca berry
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Energy Ball
- Ice Beam
- Fleur Cannon/ dazzling gleam

This set just dumpsters ground. At +2 the only check to this thing is excadrill or the occasional camerupt. Which means that you could be beating a steel team 6-1, if his balloon isnt popped and your excadrill is weak enough to die to ice beam, you lose. Is this the fault of ground? I wouldn't say so. Plenty of mons get ice/grass coverage, but not all of them have insane bulk, the ability to get +2 speed on a whim, AND have the coverage needed. I havent even mentioned the shuca set but does basically the same thing so yeah lol.

Magearna @ Air Balloon/shuca berry
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Fleur Cannon

Instead of beating ground, its flying this set trashes flying. All of the checks for this thing are forced to get in after a sack and after a sack it gets +1 and the list of checks is drastically lowered. Even full hp dragonite doesnt beat this monster from full.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 246-290 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Which means if the shuca/balloon is still in tact not even dragonite checks this beast.

This was only two examples but the point still stands.ground and flying arent bad types. But this mon alone dumpsters them under the right conditions. Now I know the point can be made that any pokemon could sweep under the right circumstances but, the conditions are so slight, that you might be preparing yourself to get swept by this thing WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING.

Now, I actually agree with the second point eien made by saying that this thing basically only runs the same coverage, but does it really need to? I personally dont think any coverage is bad coverage. If you run shadow ball over aura sphere maybe run superpower on scizor. its just a matter of building your team around the coverage you aren't using. To make an all round team composition.

As far as checks/counters that this thing has.....well the list is decently long. Counters for this thing go as far as chansey and stay as close as chansey. The coverage that this thing has basically hits every other special wall and can wear them down decently enough. the checks for this thing however, are actually numerous. Basically every fire type, ground types(provided he isnt balloon), and speedy hard hitters can all check this thing. However, checks can only go so far. In order to get a free switch in, you need a pivot or sack a mon, and not every type has reliable pivoters, thus lowering the list of "checks" even more. Plus the fact that this mon is backed up by arguably, the one of best defensive cores in the game on steel, and backed up by bulu+fini on fairy, he can be extremely annoying to kill for many types.

In conclusion, I dont think that this mon is impossible to beat at all, in fact, its easy if you have the right mons on your team/are a fire mono. But this thing skews too many matchups/has too little counters/ has too great of a backbone on the types he has/ has too great of a defensive typing/ and too great of a spread to not raise a couple eyebrows.

P.s I know you might think that these set I put up are trash, but I wouldn't have put these sets if I havent seen them at least a decent number of times on ladder and among some high-level players.

Thanks for reading ^-^
 

Lilymoding

formerly Kyosuru Jets
So firstly, saying that the types magearna beats are bad anyways isn't a fair statement since some sets can completely shut down types like ground, and flying while also making matchups extremely skewed all on its own.

Magearna @ Air Balloon/shuca berry
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Fleur Cannon

This was only two examples but the point still stands.ground and flying arent bad types. But this mon alone dumpsters them under the right conditions. Now I know the point can be made that any pokemon could sweep under the right circumstances but, the conditions are so slight, that you might be preparing yourself to get swept by this thing WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING.

As far as checks/counters that this thing has.....well the list is decently long. Counters for this thing go as far as chansey and stay as close as chansey. The coverage that this thing has basically hits every other special wall and can wear them down decently enough. the checks for this thing however, are actually numerous. Basically every fire type, ground types(provided he isnt balloon), and speedy hard hitters can all check this thing. However, checks can only go so far.
With the "decently long" list of checks provided, I would argue that this set is too incredibly niched to be considered seriously. Most mons can be built to really check a certain type, but if you're left vulnerable against the other 17 types in the meta, then you're just left with a gimmick. The term "under the right conditions" isn't legitimate when considering whether a mon is broken, because the scenarios that you gave to beat flying and ground get almightily checked by almost everything else. If Magearna on its own, with a set that is more universal and viable across more than just one type, was able to bottleneck the meta, that is when discussion should begin, but the sets given just aren't viable enough on a tier-wide scale to consider the mon broken in my opinion.
 

Namranan

:)))))))))))
I am not for or against Magearna, but this argument is completely invalid. All that replay shows is that you had a type advantage and got lucky with sleep turns. It isn't hard to beat a steel team with a fighting team. When people say fighting can't beat Magearna, they are referring to Magearna on fairy because the fairy team in general is what fighting can't break. And the only special wall that truly counters magearna is Chansey, every other mon I can think of gets easily worn down. Also, there are little to no pokemon that can switch into a hit from Magearna and kill it. Yes, there are pokemon that can outspeed and KO Magearna, but other than Dugtrio, Magearna can switch out of all of them and continue wreaking havoc on the team when given free switches.
Once again it looks like I screwed this up really bad, I think I'm going to stop commenting on this forum until I can start making valid arguments. I was going to delete my post but then it would look like your post was completely fabricated, so I'll keep it there. thanks for calling me out though.

On the side note I do recall beating fairy with magearna, its just that I could not recover the replay. I believe this was only because the magearna didn't have fleur cannon as it was the only move that could have killed my SpD hitmonlee, so nonetheless even that wouldn't help me. So in turn I guess I'm going to have to learn how to actually write an argument, and main a new type.

Sorry for the disjointed layout by the way, I'm pretty sick atm so I'm not really thinking the best right now.
 
So I've been having fun playing around with Mega-Beedrill today, and instead of going hyper-offensive as one might expect for the Bee I ended up building a pseudo-balance team utilizing an Amoonguss / Toxapex core to pretty decent effect. It's not a fully developed team, but thought it'd be fun to share since Mega-Bee is fresh.

Here is the team...
Beedrill @ Beedrillite
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Poison Jab
- Drill Run
- Swords Dance

Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Stun Spore
- Giga Drain
- Foul Play

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Haze

Nidoking @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 212 HP / 132 Atk / 44 Def / 120 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Gunk Shot
- Fire Blast

Crobat @ Black Sludge
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 48 Def / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Defog
- Taunt
And here are some replays...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-543938133 (vs Water)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-543726165 (vs Flying)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-543710466 (vs Poison)


(Don't mind explosion Alola-Muk. I was dared and didn't think this team would end up being worth posting about)
The dual regenerator core really put in a ton of work, and Amoonguss does a great job of spreading around status and checking physical threats. Stun Spore + Spore might look weird but just did a great job of luring in threats like Mega-Zard Y or others after opponents sack a mon to sleep. Mega-Bee pivots nicely into threats, and I was trying out Pursuit as a way of trapping threats trying to switch out of U-turn. Swords Dance also performed well, though I don't have any replays for that set.

Given that it's been a day since the Bee's release, this team is obviously undeveloped. But even disregarding that it's hard to imagine Mega-Bee will have many (if any) better matchups than traditional balance Poison. I'm going to try building more offensive Mega-Bee teams too, but I think the reliance on Crobat as your ground immunity really holds back HO Poison, and it makes you miss Levitate Gengar who had a much, MUCH more offensive presence.

That said I look forward to seeing how people build around the bee these next few weeks and whether it'll end up more relevant this gen than last.
 
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twinkay

these bugs love all the sugar in my blood
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
What about Tapu Koko?

Although Magearna is the main target for a suspect, I feel arguments about it have exhausted themselves out right now, so I would like to bring up this Pokemon as someone for a potential suspect in the future. Tapu Koko has been one of those Pokemon that have been dismissed as more of a "nuisance" than an actual threat. Well-built teams can deal with Tapu Koko, and Tapu Koko is not difficult at all to wear down or OHKO, and most types have a counter to Tapu Koko. Why, you might ask, would Tapu Koko warrant a suspect then? Well...​
  • Tapu Koko is fast - Now before you call me a noob (a title which I rightfully deserve I guess), speed is definitely not a sole reason to ban a Pokemon. However, if you take a look at its speed tier, 130, most of the Pokemon either at that speed tier or above it don't have nearly as much offensive power as Tapu Koko does (excluding Megas and banned Pokemon like Pheromosa), and Tapu Koko has two reasonably good offenses. And do any of these Pokemon have an ability that boosts an already powerful STAB by 50%, for every member of a person's team? Of course not! Not only that, but Tapu Koko's speed tier is crazy high considering how few legal Pokemon actually surpass unboosted (and boosted too!). All of the viable Pokemon that ouspeed Tapu Koko unboosted are: Deoxys-Speed, Aerodactyl-Mega, Alakazam-Mega, Beedrill-Mega. The only viable Pokemon you tie with is Crobat, Aerodactyl, and of course opposing Tapu Koko. That's a grand total of seven Pokemon, two of which are forced to hold a Mega Stone and two of which are just the same Pokemon in different forms! If this doesn't impress you, think about it like this: out of 18 types, 11 of them don't have a single legal Pokemon on the viability rankings that can outspeed or tie with Tapu Koko unboosted. Now, of course, Scarf Pokemon can outspeed Tapu Koko. Sweepers that can boost speed can eventually outspeed Tapu Koko. However, you cannot deny that Tapu Koko's speed plays a huge part in its viability.
  • Tapu Koko is unpredictable - One of Tapu Koko's main appeals is its wide variety of coverage options. First off, Tapu Koko can either run a physical set or a special set, which is what a myriad of wallbreakers cannot do. This already makes Tapu Koko extremely unpredictable and hard to counter, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. Tapu Koko does not need a Mega Stone so it is free to run whatever item it wants, including but not limited to Life Orb, Choice Specs, Choice Band, Flyinium Z, and Magnet. And this complements nicely with Tapu Koko's amazing coverage options, which allow it decimate certain defensive checks and cores as well as offensive cores with ease. Grass Knot and Hidden Power Ice / Fire for special sets and Brave Bird and U-turn for physical sets doesn't seem amazing on paper, but it works very well against Tapu Koko's common switch-ins. For example, Seismitoad and Swampert can't switch in safely due to Grass Knot. Landorus-T and Garchomp aren't checks because of HP Ice, and HP Fire 2HKOes Ferrothorn variants without Special Defense investment (even though that's suboptimal) and also hits Excadrill for some good damage. Brave Bird, especially in conjunction with Flyinium Z, can lure in specially defensive walls and more Pokemon, such as Venusaur-Mega and Tapu Bulu, become OHKOed. Not even Alolan Marowak can switch in safely! Sure, there are definitely Pokemon that can counter Tapu Koko no matter what, but the point is that Tapu Koko constrains teambuilding! Lanturn is on almost every Water team, not just because it can take Electric attacks, Pokemon like Quagsire and Swampert can do that too, but for its ability to check Tapu Koko. And even Lanturn, possibly the best counter out there, is still affected by Tapu Koko, as it can easily support its teammates. And that it actually a nice segue into my next point...
  • Tapu Koko is amazing support - Electric Surge is a great ability, there is no denying it. Electric attacks are boosted by 1.5x, along with STAB on Electric teams, and nobody can fall asleep. On Electric, this is a godsend, and is what singlehandedly makes them one of the top five teams, which should raise some eyebrows to begin with. Also this is the basis of the infamous Tapu Koko + Alolan Raichu core which is the bane of many teams. Tapu Koko demolishes many offensive cores by itself, but with the help of Alolan Raichu it can easily shred through offensive teams. There is not a single Pokemon on Electric that I can think of that does not benefit from Electric Terrain. And its ability to prevent sleep should not be underestimated either. This benefit allows you to safely switch into Breloom and Amoonguss and hamper RestTalk walls and Smeargle. Tapu Koko is an extremely strong wallbreaker for Fairy and while Electric Terrain's only real benefit is sleep prevention, you can also strengthen Magearna's Volt Switch. By itself, Tapu Koko is an amazing wallbreaker. However, with teammates, Tapu Koko's true power comes to light.
  • Tapu Koko skews matchups - Now this is where the true difference between "annoying" and "broken" come into play. Tapu Koko has a very little pool of checks / counters because of its speed (see above), unpredictability (see above), and sheer wallbreaking power. The types it beats / immensely pressures are good, solid types, like Water and Flying. Sure, Water has Lanturn, but once Lanturn is removed Tapu Koko is extremely threatening. Sure Flying has Dragonite, but that's extremely reliant on Multiscale and thus cannot switch in. These are just a few matchups I could come up with that would not be as skewed toward Electric or Fairy without Tapu Koko.
Electric vs Flying
Electric vs Water
Electric vs Grass
Electric vs Dark
Electric vs Poison
Fairy vs Water
Fairy vs Flying
Fairy vs Fire​

Overall, I believe Tapu Koko does warrant a suspect test. Tapu Koko is an extremely powerful and fast Pokemon that obliterates offensive cores and restricts teambuilding. There is not a single type Tapu Koko cannot pressure, and many solid types have an extremely hard time dealing with it. I am nowhere near to being the most experienced / best Monotype player so I would appreciate feedback and your thoughts. I know some of argument is not going to be perfect (especially the matchup list). With all that, thank you for reading!​
 
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Lilymoding

formerly Kyosuru Jets
What about Tapu Koko?

Although Magearna is the main target for a suspect, I feel arguments about it have exhausted themselves out right now, so I would like to bring up this Pokemon as someone for a potential suspect in the future. Tapu Koko has been one of those Pokemon that have been dismissed as more of a "nuisance" than an actual threat. Well-built teams can deal with Tapu Koko, and Tapu Koko is not difficult at all to wear down or OHKO, and most types have a counter to Tapu Koko. Why, you might ask, would Tapu Koko warrant a suspect then? Well...​
  • Tapu Koko is fast - Now before you call me a noob (a title which I rightfully deserve I guess), speed is definitely not a sole reason to ban a Pokemon. However, if you take a look at its speed tier, 130, most of the Pokemon either at that speed tier or above it don't have nearly as much offensive power as Tapu Koko does (excluding Megas and banned Pokemon like Pheromosa), and Tapu Koko has two reasonably good offenses. And do any of these Pokemon have an ability that boosts an already powerful STAB by 50%, for every member of a person's team? Of course not! Not only that, but Tapu Koko's speed tier is crazy high considering how few legal Pokemon actually surpass unboosted (and boosted too!). All of the viable Pokemon that ouspeed Tapu Koko unboosted are: Deoxys-Speed, Aerodactyl-Mega, Beedrill-Mega. The only viable Pokemon you tie with is Crobat, Aerodactyl, and of course opposing Tapu Koko. That's a grand total of six Pokemon, two of which are forced to hold a Mega Stone and two of which are just the same Pokemon in different forms! If this doesn't impress you, think about it like this: out of 18 types, 11 of them don't have a single legal Pokemon on the viability rankings that can outspeed or tie with Tapu Koko unboosted. Now, of course, Scarf Pokemon can outspeed Tapu Koko. Sweepers that can boost speed can eventually outspeed Tapu Koko. However, you cannot deny that Tapu Koko's speed plays a huge part in its viability.
  • Tapu Koko is unpredictable - One of Tapu Koko's main appeals is its wide variety of coverage options. First off, Tapu Koko can either run a physical set or a special set, which is what a myriad of wallbreakers cannot do. This already makes Tapu Koko extremely unpredictable and hard to counter, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. Tapu Koko does not need a Mega Stone so it is free to run whatever item it wants, including but not limited to Life Orb, Choice Specs, Choice Band, Flyinium Z, and Magnet. And this complements nicely with Tapu Koko's amazing coverage options, which allow it decimate certain defensive checks and cores as well as offensive cores with ease. Grass Knot and Hidden Power Ice / Fire for special sets and Brave Bird and U-turn for physical sets doesn't seem amazing on paper, but it works very well against Tapu Koko's common switch-ins. For example, Seismitoad and Swampert can't switch in safely due to Grass Knot. Landorus-T and Garchomp aren't checks because of HP Ice, and HP Fire 2HKOes Ferrothorn variants without Special Defense investment (even though that's suboptimal) and also hits Excadrill for some good damage. Brave Bird, especially in conjunction with Flyinium Z, can lure in specially defensive walls and more Pokemon, such as Venusaur-Mega and Tapu Bulu, become OHKOed. Not even Alolan Marowak can switch in safely! Sure, there are definitely Pokemon that can counter Tapu Koko no matter what, but the point is that Tapu Koko constrains teambuilding! Lanturn is on almost every Water team, not just because it can take Electric attacks, Pokemon like Quagsire and Swampert can do that too, but for its ability to check Tapu Koko. And even Lanturn, possibly the best counter out there, is still affected by Tapu Koko, as it can easily support its teammates. And that it actually a nice segue into my next point...
  • Tapu Koko is amazing support - Electric Surge is a great ability, there is no denying it. Electric attacks are boosted by 1.5x, along with STAB on Electric teams, and nobody can fall asleep. On Electric, this is a godsend, and is what singlehandedly makes them one of the top five teams, which should raise some eyebrows to begin with. Also this is the basis of the infamous Tapu Koko + Alolan Raichu core which is the bane of many teams. Tapu Koko demolishes many offensive cores by itself, but with the help of Alolan Raichu it can easily shred through offensive teams. There is not a single Pokemon on Electric that I can think of that does not benefit from Electric Terrain. And its ability to prevent sleep should not be underestimated either. This benefit allows you to safely switch into Breloom and Amoonguss and hamper RestTalk walls and Smeargle. Tapu Koko is an extremely strong wallbreaker for Fairy and while Electric Terrain's only real benefit is sleep prevention, you can also strengthen Magearna's Volt Switch. By itself, Tapu Koko is an amazing wallbreaker. However, with teammates, Tapu Koko's true power comes to light.
  • Tapu Koko skews matchups - Now this is where the true difference between "annoying" and "broken" come into play. Tapu Koko has a very little pool of checks / counters because of its speed (see above), unpredictability (see above), and sheer wallbreaking power. The types it beats / immensely pressures are good, solid types, like Water and Flying. Sure, Water has Lanturn, but once Lanturn is removed Tapu Koko is extremely threatening. Sure Flying has Dragonite, but that's extremely reliant on Multiscale and thus cannot switch in. These are just a few matchups I could come up with that would not be as skewed toward Electric or Fairy without Tapu Koko.
Electric vs Flying
Electric vs Water
Electric vs Grass
Electric vs Dark
Electric vs Poison
Fairy vs Water
Fairy vs Flying
Fairy vs Fire​

Overall, I believe Tapu Koko does warrant a suspect test. Tapu Koko is an extremely powerful and fast Pokemon that obliterates offensive cores and restricts teambuilding. There is not a single type Tapu Koko cannot pressure, and many solid types have an extremely hard time dealing with it. I am nowhere near to being the most experienced / best Monotype player so I would appreciate feedback and your thoughts. I know some of argument is not going to be perfect (especially the matchup list). With all that, thank you for reading!​
About that
EDIT: erased counter statement after deliberation with Attribute and Paleo

Your speed argument really does not stand for anything. Scarves starting at base 71 outspeed. Even outside of that, just because a type can't outspeed a mon does NOT make that mon a threat to the type (see ninjask to rock).

Second, looking at it's offensive capabilities, you have dgleam, volt switch, tbolt, grass knot, u-turn, wild charge, and brave bird. That is an incredibly limited movepool, and if it's running HP Ice it loses to Ferrothorn, HP Fire losing to Lando-T, both very real threats. Each of these sets has its checks and counters, and the moveset is nowhere near worrying.

Tapu Koko's offensive capabilities are indeed good, that is undisputable, but the question is whether or not it is broken. Electric Terrain is certainly a good field, especially when paired with Alolan Raichu, however Electric as an attacking type is not on the same level as Psychic is (when comparing Electric Terrain to Psychic Terrain, as per Tapu Lele). Ground, a very common type, is completely immune, and grass knot is not going to supplement that, especially with a mere base 95 SpA stat. All Tapu Koko does is exacerbate already present weaknesses. All it adds to whatever team it is on is a fast electric STAB and a useful pivot in Volt Switch, but any team geared to deal with electric can deal with Tapu Koko.

Calcs (using mono terrain setter move set: Tbolt DGleam VSwitch HP Ice, however I swapped Magnet for Life Orb)
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola in Electric Terrain: 153-181 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 133-159 (33 - 39.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Electric Terrain: 138-164 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Electric Terrain: 114-136 (30.4 - 36.3%) -- 53.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 87-103 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Swampert: 114-135 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 95.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
I would strongly recommend other users submitting more relevant calcs, because mine are somewhat lacking.
 
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twinkay

these bugs love all the sugar in my blood
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I understand your points, but there are a couple of things I'd like to point out:

Can't copy anything because I'm on mobile but Band Wild Charge has a 53.6% chance to OHKO Muk-Alola ( or at least the OU Assault Vest spread, which is the one I think you used for your calcs), so that has to be taken into account. It counters the special set, though.

Ninjask isn't really comparable to Tapu Koko as a) Tapu Koko is viable and Ninjask is not and b) there is no type that resists both of Tapu Koko's STABs, unlike Ninjask. I agree that speed alone doesn't make a Pokemon broken but it is something to be taken into account when discussing Tapu Koko.

Fair enough, but Tapu Koko's movepool covers what it needs to IMO. It's not really Tapu Koko's movepool that's being emphasized here but its unpredictability. Also I would say Landorus-T is only a real threat to Electric, not Fairy.

Another fair point, but I never said Grass Knot completely wins versus Ground, it just helps. And I disagree that if a team can deal with Electric, it can deal with Tapu Koko. Well, first off, to deal with Electric, you would have to deal with Koko. Second, if you mean Electric types other than Koko, than that is not necessarily true. For example, standard Grass doesn't have to change much to deal with Electric, but after Cradily and Ferrothorn are removed Flyinium Z Brave Bird Tapu Koko can easily clean.

Thank you for your feedback!
 

Lilymoding

formerly Kyosuru Jets
EDIT: removed grass usertag LOL
I understand your points, but there are a couple of things I'd like to point out:

Can't copy anything because I'm on mobile but Band Wild Charge has a 53.6% chance to OHKO Muk-Alola ( or at least the OU Assault Vest spread, which is the one I think you used for your calcs), so that has to be taken into account. It counters the special set, though.
Band Tapu Koko is left with an even smaller movepool and has checks of its own, and contrary to what I said before, alolan muk isnt quite a counter to Tapu Koko (thanks to the guys who told me that one)

I understand your points, but there are a couple of things I'd like to point out:

Ninjask isn't really comparable to Tapu Koko as a) Tapu Koko is viable and Ninjask is not and b) there is no type that resists both of Tapu Koko's STABs, unlike Ninjask. I agree that speed alone doesn't make a Pokemon broken but it is something to be taken into account when discussing Tapu Koko.
I only made the Ninjask argument as a statement of the relative unimportance of speed alone, and proceeded to address the other factors of Tapu Koko.

I understand your points, but there are a couple of things I'd like to point out:

Fair enough, but Tapu Koko's movepool covers what it needs to IMO. It's not really Tapu Koko's movepool that's being emphasized here but its unpredictability. Also I would say Landorus-T is only a real threat to Electric, not Fairy.
I would argue that unpredictability stems from the size of it's movepool and the moves in it.


I understand your points, but there are a couple of things I'd like to point out:

Another fair point, but I never said Grass Knot completely wins versus Ground, it just helps. And I disagree that if a team can deal with Electric, it can deal with Tapu Koko. Well, first off, to deal with Electric, you would have to deal with Koko. Second, if you mean Electric types other than Koko, than that is not necessarily true. For example, standard Grass doesn't have to change much to deal with Electric, but after Cradily and Ferrothorn are removed Flyinium Z Brave Bird Tapu Koko can easily clean.
At the grass statement, that is because ferrothorn and cradily are the mons that deal with electric and flying stab, save mega venu. If anything, I would say that is where the pro for Tapu Koko lies; its ability to take out Mega venusaur. However, when stating "Any team that is built to handle electric can handle Tapu Koko", that insinuates using the mons that handle electric, including ferrothorn and cradily. Past that, you are addressing Grass's general weakness to flying STAB, which is by no means remarkably special nor unique to Tapu Koko. All the mon does is prey on this already prevalent weakness, such that Scizor breaks Ice.
 
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