Metagame Mega Evolution in Sun & Moon

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Leo

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Mega Evolution
approved by Gary, credits to Halcyon for the OP
Mega Evolution, a mechanic introduced in the previous generation, is still a potent tool in Sun & Moon. Having one Pokemon with massive stats and usually a powerful ability to boot can be the difference between winning and losing. Teams can be built around Mega Pokemon, or they can be the glue that just makes an already good team work that much better.
Absol, Aerodactyl, Aggron, Alakazam, Altaria, Ampharos, Audino, Beedrill, Blastoise, Charizard (X&Y), Diancie Garchomp, Gengar (banned), Glalie, Gyarados, Heracross, Houndoom, Kangaskhan (Banned), Latias, Latios, Lucario (Banned), Mawile, Medicham, Metagross (banned), Mewtwo (X&Y)(banned), Pidgeot, Pinsir, Rayquaza (banned), Sableye, Salamence (Banned), Scizor, Sharpedo, Slowbro, Steelix, Venusaur, Swampert, Sceptile, Blaziken (Banned), Abomasnow, Manectric, Tyranitar, Camerupt, Banette, Lopunny, Gardevoir, Gallade

The big change we saw this Generation was how turn order is decided in relation to Mega Evolution. Before, Speed (and therefore turn order) was determined before Pokemon Mega Evolved. This meant Pokemon like Sableye could still have their status moves go first with Prankster, yet maintain Magic Bounce for the turn that they Mega Evolve. However, in Sun and Moon, Pokemon Mega Evolve before the turn order is determined. That means Mega Sableye won't have access to priority status moves on the turn that it Mega Evolves, and other Pokemon will automatically gain their Speed tiers the same turn that they Mega Evolve. This has some pretty big implications for certain Mega Evolutions.​


With that said, which Mega Evolutions do you think are the best in Sun and Moon so far? Discuss different Mega Pokemon, cores, and sets you've been using on the ladder below.​
 
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It seems like most ppll are running 4 attacks on mega maw (over SD), is there any reason? Obviously you get 1 more coverage, but I felt like it's SD+sucker was essentially why it got banned in ORAS. Oftentimes if you get to a certain point in a match, all you need is to get an SD off with maw and its gg, as sucker sweeps a lot of weakened teams. SD also makes the stall matchup significantly easier. So what about the current meta makes 4 attacks the preference?
 

Blazenix

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AoA Mawile is definitely a good set. I wouldn't say its better or worse than SD as both have their merits. The metagame right now is pretty offensive as you could tell which makes it somewhat harder for mawile to set up and even with boosted sucker punch, its not that easy for it to stop some faster pokemon like greninja, landorus etc from revenging it (Albeit dealing a good chunk of damage) because of the nerf it got this gen. AoA on the other hand is more of a matter of supporting another team mate imo, giving mawile the ability to use fire fang or focus punch on its now free moveslot to threaten pokemon like mega scizor, ferrothorn or in heatran's case, luring with focus punch instantly removing them from the field to let its team mates like offensive trick room magearna ( which goes well with mega mawile ) to be able to break through opposing team that they otherwise couldn't thanks to removal of said pokemons.
 
Since M-Sceptile got released i been enjoying a lot, its been doing some good work but I been thinking about trying a rain team with M-Swampert, what is better for it stealth rocks for hazards, Power-Up punch for set up or Superpower to be able to breakthrough ferrothorn ?
 

Leo

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Since M-Sceptile got released i been enjoying a lot, its been doing some good work but I been thinking about trying a rain team with M-Swampert, what is better for it stealth rocks for hazards, Power-Up punch for set up or Superpower to be able to breakthrough ferrothorn ?
Depends on what you're going for/what your team needs. If you want to get rocks vs Stall then sr is fine, pup is mediocre imo but it has some lategame uses so ig its fair, spower is what I usually run because Ferro is annoying
 
I think Superpower is better than PuP.
Having immediate power is essential for not l'orsetto the rain turn, also thorn is a big treath to rain team

What about Scept? Is it outclassed by serp?
 
What about Scept? Is it outclassed by serp?
They're similar on paper but play very differently. Scept trades long term sweeping potential and defog/web discouraging for fantastic speed, a better movepool, and more immediate power, which lets it OHKO some things like koko. Most of the time I prefer serp, but with the super greninja bros and koko, I don't think it's a bad choice at all. It's pretty ok. Not great, not terrible.
 

Blazenix

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On the swampert matter, I prefer super power over pup as it gets some clean chip on ferrothorn and thats pretty much all you need to put in range of other rain abuser, mainly kingdra, as its devastating enough for teams who use ferrothorn as the only sturdy water resist.

I don't really like mega sceptile at all to be honest, it never seems to stand out because even if it possesses a stellar speed stat, it has a lot of other downsides such as having dragon pulse as strong dragon stab, leaf storm, even tho being strong itself, doesnt really break a lot of bulkier walls as it also drops your special attack forcing you to switch out. Steels are everywhere in the metagame and it cannot even 2hko things like magearna, celesteela and jirachi unless youre running max attack eq ( which is a roll to 2HKO magearna ) which is a bad set. Another issue is that it costs a mega slot, meaning you miss out on running other good megas like heracross pinsir etc. I think its only being used because its a new toy for people to test out, generally not worth it. Looking forward to other's opinions.
 
Maybe it's just me, but I have been enjoying using a SD Mega Sceptile set. Sure, you don't use that lightning rod boost if you predict correctly, but Mega Sceptile doesn't suffer from using leaf storm, and his physical Dragon Stabs (even though outrage sucks with all the fairies) are much better than dragon pulse. You get walled by certain steels/bulu of course. But deal with those first and he has lots of fun at +2 with his beautiful speed Stat.
 
I've been using work up for similar reasons (mitigate leafstorm drop), with leaf storm/dpulse/eq. It's not the best coverage ever but it hits a good amount of the meta. It's easy to force a switch with it's speed and a type advantage matchup, allowing you to work up and ohko tran with eq or latios w dpulse, ttar w leaf storm, what have u.
But I don't think sceptile will last in ou. it's too weak outside of setup sets and it's too frail to setup reliably .
 
I don't really like mega sceptile at all to be honest, it never seems to stand out because even if it possesses a stellar speed stat, it has a lot of other downsides such as having dragon pulse as strong dragon stab, leaf storm, even tho being strong itself, doesnt really break a lot of bulkier walls as it also drops your special attack forcing you to switch out. Steels are everywhere in the metagame and it cannot even 2hko things like magearna, celesteela and jirachi unless youre running max attack eq ( which is a roll to 2HKO magearna ) which is a bad set. Another issue is that it costs a mega slot, meaning you miss out on running other good megas like heracross pinsir etc. I think its only being used because its a new toy for people to test out, generally not worth it. Looking forward to other's opinions.
Ash-Ninja and Protean Ninja are both good reasons to use Mega Sceptile (of course, if your team REALLY needs some offensive answer and you don't have one). Also, it kills Latios, Mega Zard X, Tyranitar, Koko, Fini, Heatran (...), all in OHKO basically, so it's a good option for a Mega Slot. Not the best on the tier. but a good one.
 
On the swampert matter, I prefer super power over pup as it gets some clean chip on ferrothorn and thats pretty much all you need to put in range of other rain abuser, mainly kingdra, as its devastating enough for teams who use ferrothorn as the only sturdy water resist.

I don't really like mega sceptile at all to be honest, it never seems to stand out because even if it possesses a stellar speed stat, it has a lot of other downsides such as having dragon pulse as strong dragon stab, leaf storm, even tho being strong itself, doesnt really break a lot of bulkier walls as it also drops your special attack forcing you to switch out. Steels are everywhere in the metagame and it cannot even 2hko things like magearna, celesteela and jirachi unless youre running max attack eq ( which is a roll to 2HKO magearna ) which is a bad set. Another issue is that it costs a mega slot, meaning you miss out on running other good megas like heracross pinsir etc. I think its only being used because its a new toy for people to test out, generally not worth it. Looking forward to other's opinions.
Well first thanks for your input on M-Swamp, I been using Super and its been very good at breaking non-chople thorn switch ins, anyway on the M-Scep, It can't ko these steel mons you mentioned but they sure ain't coming for free, neither Mag or rachi enjoy taking a quake, they aren't going down but if you're using they as your pivots then you want them as healty as possible, and while steela can take even 2 HPFire it still not a free switch in, there are things it can't get pass like AV Growth, AV Torn-T and Amonguss but it still able to put in good work against some big threats on the meta like Lando-T, Koko, Ninjas, Zyg, Chomp, Keldeo, Latios, Ttar and on.

Mind you I am not saying its the best mega ever, I think its on the same spot as M-Venu, M-Slow or even M-ZardX on while its a solid mega there still a a lot of issues stopping it from become top like the mega slot argument where M-Pinsir, M-Mawile and M-ZardY being able to tear the meta apart with few issues and the fact it has competition with serperior who is able to snowball and discouraging webs and defog with contrary, more bulk and outspeeding the 110 benchmark and slowing switch ins with glare, meanwhile M-Scep outspeed almost the entire metagame losing only to M-Zam and M-Aero and tieing with M-Bee, hitting hard form the start, having better coverage and discouragin Volt-turn Spam.
While I think M-Scep is itself the better mon, Serp its a better alternative because it doesn't take the M-slot it and do a good job as a offensive grass type, thats why its on B+ and thats why I am comparing M-Scep to M-Venu, M-Slow and to an extent ZardX who while good mons who should be taken into consideration have something who can do his job while freeing the M-slot, need a DD who can nuke the meta? Gyarados can do it, Need a bulk Grass type? Guss and Growth do very well, needing a bulky water type? Fini, Rotom-W do very good and Pex outclass it as a bulky pivot with Regenerator, recover, scald not being set-up food with haze and setting hazards.

TL;DR: M-Scep its good and can work just fine, but a serp can do just as good while not taking a slot so its like the other B megas on being good but having a no mega alternative who allows you to take another mega.

Changing topics a little what you guys think about the upcoming megas ? M-Ttar I think it on the same spot as M-Gya as his base form has more utility than his mega so I don't think its gonna show too much, M-Aboma its pretty mediocre being very slow and having a bad type on Grass/Ice it can work on hail teams but other than those its not that great, M-Mane might end up being very good or average, Its a good partner for koko since it can hit stuff like AV-Growth and Guss, having Intimidate weakeens stuff for his teamates and on E-Field his stab packs a punch, M-Gallade still has to compete with M-Cham but the better speed might give him a niche, M-Garde has to compete with Lele but together they seem very good being able to weaken his checks and both having very powerfull stabs and M-Lop not having to pick fake-out to go fast from the get go is very good, while a good move to rack in damage it frees a slot for something like POP or Sub who are good as well.
 
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Leo

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Updated the op with the new available Megas: Manectric, Tyranitar and Abomasnow
 
Mega Manectric is going to be really solid. 135 Speed outspeeds Ash Greninja which is nice, and 135 SpA is solid too. For example, MegaMan OHKOs Offensive Lando-T (which is not often Scarfed anymore, or even Double Dance which IMO is a bit slept on) with HP Ice 100% of the time, something Tapu Koko needs a Life Orb to do (and Magnet/HP Restore Berry is much better than LO). In addition, access to strong Fire-type coverage is another important niche MegaMan has over Koko, letting the dog blow past Ferrothorn/Magearna/Scizor and more. Mega Manectric is also a good offensive check to Mega Pinsir due to Electric-typing and Intimidate, plus the fact that MegaMan outspeeds and OHKOs with Overheat/Thunderbolt/Volt Switch (the last has a 62.5% to OHKO from full, so Rocky Helmet damage from Lando-T is enough).

Also, Overheat>Flamethrower, since it OHKOs Ferrothorn 100% of the time and does more to AV Tangrowth (which usually comes in as a check). Plus, you'll likely just end up Volt Switching out, and since you outspeed the SpA drop doesn't matter.

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 212-250 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 250-296 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile-Mega: 304-358 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Potential/likely core: Mega Manectric also forms a great VoltTurn core with Tapu Koko, and the added boost to Volt Switch and Thunderbolt really is nice for Mega Manectric, so expect to see this core fairly often, along with good old SR Lando-T as a Ground immunity/Hazard setter/and Intimidate U-turner.

The Electric Terrain boost gives Mega Manectric the ability to beat/check some stuff it couldn't earlier in a 1v1.

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 326-386 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran in Electric Terrain: 217-256 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 249-294 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna in Electric Terrain: 202-238 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega in Electric Terrain: 261-307 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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So I read on serebii that the gardevoirite galladite and loppunite are coming soon. Not expecting much from the former 2 but Lopunny was A+ rank at the end of oras and while there are more Fairies now it can also have that speed right from turn 1 and it lost Mega Metagross.
 

Gary

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I personally don't think Mega Lopunny is going to have nearly as big as an impact on the tier that it did through most of ORAS, and I know many others share the same thoughts as me. While the Speed buff is really nice for it, I just don't see a reason not to still run Fake Out on it. Much like Medi, that extra chip is extremely crucial for it and is the main reason it is such a massive pain in the ass for offensive teams. Being able to break Smeargle's sash as well as flinch Mimikyu through Disguise is really useful, and puts a huge damper in the overall effectiveness of Sticky Web teams. It's also useful for stalling out rain turns as well.

Anyway, I do think Lopunny dropping will cause the meta to shift away from the more offensive playstyles, mainly Sticky Web, and more towards the bulky offensive teams we've started to see pop up, like Bro Fist's Shift Gear Magearna/Ash Gren/Mew/Zyg team. While Slowbro isn't that common at the moment, Mew is still very problematic for it and can switch into it even if SR are up. There's also stuff like Bulu which can eat hits up from it and get most of it back from Horn Leech + Terrain, Scarf Keldeo is still pretty common, Tangrowth, Helmet Lando, Bold Clef, Pex, Reuniclus, Protect Steela, etc. It will impact the metagame for sure, but not in such a way where it's going to force teams to run super specific answers to it or anything. I honestly enjoy the thought of Web based archetypes being less effective, and moving to a more bulkier offensive meta that is less match up ridden.

I can't see Gard being that great with Lele in the tier. Gallade I honestly don't have an opinion on. Its match up vs stall is still completely useless, but it is interesting that it's a faster, weaker version of Medi with the ability to muscle through bulky Psychic-types like Mew which are really prevalent atm.
 

Colonel M

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I think Gallade will have a bigger impact this generation in comparison to last gen. Knock Off and not relying on High Jump Kick for a STAB is pretty nice for it, and the instant Speed boost is helpful this generation. I don't expect it to be some Godsend of a Mega, but I think it will have a small niche in comparison to Mega Medicham. The problem is the fourth move struggle - Ice Punch seems the most logical, but the rise of Magic Guard Clefable warrants Zen Headbutt.

I think Mega Lopunny will have the impact of fatter builds, but a lot of teams are like that already. One significant difference may be defensive Landorus-T having to heavily consider Rocky Helmet again, though.
 
I personally don't think Mega Lopunny is going to have nearly as big as an impact on the tier that it did through most of ORAS, and I know many others share the same thoughts as me. While the Speed buff is really nice for it, I just don't see a reason not to still run Fake Out on it. Much like Medi, that extra chip is extremely crucial for it and is the main reason it is such a massive pain in the ass for offensive teams. Being able to break Smeargle's sash as well as flinch Mimikyu through Disguise is really useful, and puts a huge damper in the overall effectiveness of Sticky Web teams. It's also useful for stalling out rain turns as well.

Anyway, I do think Lopunny dropping will cause the meta to shift away from the more offensive playstyles, mainly Sticky Web, and more towards the bulky offensive teams we've started to see pop up, like Bro Fist's Shift Gear Magearna/Ash Gren/Mew/Zyg team. While Slowbro isn't that common at the moment, Mew is still very problematic for it and can switch into it even if SR are up. There's also stuff like Bulu which can eat hits up from it and get most of it back from Horn Leech + Terrain, Scarf Keldeo is still pretty common, Tangrowth, Helmet Lando, Bold Clef, Pex, Reuniclus, Protect Steela, etc. It will impact the metagame for sure, but not in such a way where it's going to force teams to run super specific answers to it or anything. I honestly enjoy the thought of Web based archetypes being less effective, and moving to a more bulkier offensive meta that is less match up ridden.

I can't see Gard being that great with Lele in the tier. Gallade I honestly don't have an opinion on. Its match up vs stall is still completely useless, but it is interesting that it's a faster, weaker version of Medi with the ability to muscle through bulky Psychic-types like Mew which are really prevalent atm.
I agree that Mega Lopunny will probably not have the same impact as it did in ORAS, especially since the meta already seems like it's heading to bulky offense and most of the top tier mons seem to give it a hard time.

As for the other two megas coming, I can't really predict that much for gardevoir outside of just comparing it to tapu lele, but I think mega gallade has been ignored a bit when it actually might have a niche that was even mentioned in Gary's post: sticky web.

Mega gallade has some qualities that a sticky web team might consider over some other megas. For starters, it goes ridiculously well with bisharp as part of an offensive core. And bisharp goes well with sticky web setters, which makes them an effective half of a team. From there, gallade benefits from the tapu's presence not only for coverage moves, but for having more selection for a fairy wall breaker, (especially tapu lele or Koko). The death of some priority moves and talonflame also works in his favor.

Compared to other megas, gallade has more speed and defense than Pinsir or medicham, making him not as reliant on sticky web, but also allowing him to outspeed other sticky web teams. Also unlike medicham, he can boost up allowing to surpass some threats that medicham has to risk facing (celesteela, magearna, landorus, etc). Finally, his move pool is a bit more expansive, which can allow a bit of unpredictability with his sets.

In addition, as silly as inner focus is for a mega Pokemon, it has some merit in not being worn down so easily by opposing mega medicham and mega lopunny.

Unfortunately, this is mostly meta observations and conjecture until he actually arrives, in which case, these qualities won't really matter. Just wanted to defend mega gallade in some way and give him a niche.
 
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bludz

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Mega Mane + Tapu Koko is an awful core for those wondering. Neither is a good wallbreaker to break down common checks really. Like yeah Mane pressures Tang a bit more but not that much, and why would Mane pave the way for Koko anyway it should be the other way around if anything based on speed tiers. In general they tend to occupy the same role and stack weaknesses without offering much outside the overlap.

To be honest not impressed with Mane at all. It still has a lot of the problems it had in ORAS and the increase in CBTar is awful for it, as well as Mega Swamp. Outspeeding Ash Gren seems nice, but the only upside is you force it to use Shuriken instead of Pump, and Shuriken does like 75+ anyway
 
Mega Mane + Tapu Koko is an awful core for those wondering. Neither is a good wallbreaker to break down common checks really. Like yeah Mane pressures Tang a bit more but not that much, and why would Mane pave the way for Koko anyway it should be the other way around if anything based on speed tiers. In general they tend to occupy the same role and stack weaknesses without offering much outside the overlap.

To be honest not impressed with Mane at all. It still has a lot of the problems it had in ORAS and the increase in CBTar is awful for it, as well as Mega Swamp. Outspeeding Ash Gren seems nice, but the only upside is you force it to use Shuriken instead of Pump, and Shuriken does like 75+ anyway
Is it still better than Tapu Koko + Alolan Raichu?
 

Ever since this, alongside lop and gardevoir, has been announced, i've been theorymonning and building with this a lot. I feel that, for the most part, the changes this gen compared to last gen have, for the most part, been positive for it. Few megas appreciate the speed buff as much as gallade, because it puts it ahead of stuff like lele zard y and zygarde first turn. The general decline in rocky helmet lando usage is huge for it, because it is no longer forced so much to run ice punch. Mew's massive usage, which is bound to increase with the release of lop alongside it, gives it more of a niche over its fellow psychic/fighting mega, medicham. Some of the most common teams in the meta, such as bro fists SG mageana team, seriously struggle against gallade. Gallade has a terrible stall matchup for a breaker, a somewhat awkward speed tier and severe 4mss, which definitely will hold it back from ever being one of the beat megas.

With that said,this is what its best set will most likely be:
Gallade-Mega (M) @ Galladite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Zen Headbutt

Swords dance is obvious. Close combat is better than drain punch because you OHKO zygarde at +2, OHKO AV tang after stealth rocks at +2, and probably some other stuff i missed that it also achieves that drain punch doesn't. Knock off beats mew. Zen heatbutt beats pex, clef, heracross and some other less important stuff like fini. Ice punch is kinda bad because you beat phys def rocky helmet with zen heatbutt at -1 followed by +1 after taking stealth rock twice ( a solid rocker is really important for gallade). Leftovers lando is a problem but like thats not that common.

Overall, i feel that with a team that can pressure lando and stall a lot, gallade is geniunely solid mon that should not be ignored in building. I feel it will probably end up b or b- in the vr, because while it has a lot of pros, its threatened a lot by common mons, comes with a fairly hogh opportunity cost, and requires a fair bit of support.
 
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