Leading in UU

Can someone please explaine why Hariyama over toxicroak? He can run practically the exact same set, except dark pulse over payback. His poisen type lets him beat other hariyama and hitmontop and no froslass expects bullet punch.

Toxicroak @ Focus Sash
Rash, 252 sp.att/252 att/4 spe

Bullet Punch
Dark Pulse
Protect
Cross Chop

Stone Edge can go over dark pulse, which also hits lass and can hit moltres, but uxie are more common and dark pulse never misses
It's probably a bulk thing, or guts abuse.

But that set looks good, I'll probably try that out
 
Can someone please explaine why Hariyama over toxicroak? He can run practically the exact same set, except dark pulse over payback. His poisen type lets him beat other hariyama and hitmontop and no froslass expects bullet punch.

Toxicroak @ Focus Sash
Rash, 252 sp.att/252 att/4 spe

Bullet Punch
Dark Pulse
Protect
Cross Chop

Stone Edge can go over dark pulse, which also hits lass and can hit moltres, but uxie are more common and dark pulse never misses
DP is only doing 32.8% - 39% to uxie so it can set up rocks para you and u-turn out with after leftovers if you roll max each time with 34% health left and if you want to argue bullet punch adds too then thats only another 5.4% - 6.5% which leftovers makes pointless.
 

shrang

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DP is only doing 32.8% - 39% to uxie so it can set up rocks para you and u-turn out with after leftovers if you roll max each time with 34% health left and if you want to argue bullet punch adds too then thats only another 5.4% - 6.5% which leftovers makes pointless.
Or Uxie can just outrightly kill Toxicroak with Psychic/Zen Headbutt
 
well aside from the fact I don't see many uxie, almost none carry psychic, they usually just stealth rock then u-turn, besides, why kill uxie when it's setup fodder for bulkylass I have in reserve? :) Toxicroaks point is to beat those anti-leads designed to stop lass. And since few use lass outside of lead, theyre okay with letting the antilass die. And, while this set cannot touch stall, NP toxicroak is usually a huge threat to stall, so when they see dark pulse they will sac everything to kill it.
@Thund: I faced that earlier, damn thing locked my toxicroak on cross chop after stealing my sash then switched to a ghost type, and later came back in and revenged my moltres. How is that cat so fast?
 
well aside from the fact I don't see many uxie, almost none carry psychic, they usually just stealth rock then u-turn, besides, why kill uxie when it's setup fodder for bulkylass I have in reserve? :) Toxicroaks point is to beat those anti-leads designed to stop lass. And since few use lass outside of lead, theyre okay with letting the antilass die. And, while this set cannot touch stall, NP toxicroak is usually a huge threat to stall, so when they see dark pulse they will sac everything to kill it.
@Thund: I faced that earlier, damn thing locked my toxicroak on cross chop after stealing my sash then switched to a ghost type, and later came back in and revenged my moltres. How is that cat so fast?
Base 115 speed. =P

I havent played today so im glad someone besides me is using it. xD
 
well, after testing it some more, the toxicroak set isn't doing as well as I thought. Cross shop misses all the time, and his dark pulse is so weak d-pulse+bullet punch doesn't always KO lass. Will probably be testing new lead.
EDIT: toxicroak fails epically, can't 4hko lead alakazam with bullet punch. scrapped
 
well, after testing it some more, the toxicroak set isn't doing as well as I thought. Cross shop misses all the time, and his dark pulse is so weak d-pulse+bullet punch doesn't always KO lass. Will probably be testing new lead.
EDIT: toxicroak fails epically, can't 4hko lead alakazam with bullet punch. scrapped
I think you are forgetting toxicroak's OTHER moves which no one uses but can help your lead out....revenge, payback,torment, taunt, counter, purusit, magic coat, knock off...of course they all seem gimmicky for an offensive poke like toxicroak and can give your opponent a good surprise the first time around...
Payback can defintely be used over dark pulse for high base power (against frosslass and Uxie)...and revenge/counter can be used over crosschop as you plan on surviving a hit from certain pokes if you plan on using it that way. YES toxicroak can survive powerful neutral hits with Max HP and YES it can get you a surprise KO with payback/counter/revenge
 
hey just posting to say, mah new lead metang is awesome! (check NU thread, to tired to repost) gets stealth rocks down and can OHKO mesprit and maim uxie with explosion. people always say some thing like, "aw, NFEs are so cute" then i take em down with explosion. so cute.
 
Finally! Froslass is banned! Time to get creative on UU leading =) I suggest that there be changes on the original post as well
 
Cupcake's Clefable:
Almost as Sweet as a Cupcake

Clefable @ Toxic Orb, Magic Guard - Adamant
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Speed
Facade
Protect
Encore
Stealth Rocks

I created this set months ago, and found great success on the UU ladder with it. At first it looks like a simple Toxic Orb abuser, but it functions a more varied purpose than just inflicting damage. With the addition of Stealth Rocks, this Clefable makes use of its natural bulk to almost guarantee the ability to get Rocks up. Now, the addition of Encore really sets this lead apart, being able to lock your opponent into unfavourable moves such as Stealth Rock giving you switch advantage, or the ability to deal considerable damage to Pokemon switching in with Facade. Also, as Clefable enjoys great longevity, it can come in and encore unsuspecting stat boosters later in the game. Finally, the anonymity as a lead in UU, grants Clefable greatly desired unpredictability; thus giving it chances to catch opponents of guard creating holes for sweepers to exploit. Below are only a few of the common lead scenarios that Clefable faces and can excel in, although with adequate prediction, Clefable can be unmatched as a lead Pokemon in UU.

Clefable vs. Ambipom:
Here, Clefable can use Protect to give it multiple advantages. It can protect itself from the obvious Fake Out, and activate its Toxic Orb.

Clefable vs. Omanstar:
With the most common first turn move of Omanstar to be Stealth Rocks, Clefable is given all the advantages. On the first turn, Clefable too sets up the Rocks. On the second turn, Clefable encores the unsuspecting Omanstar, who was probably going to try to set up Spikes. Forcing the switch, you can deal so damage to the switch in with some STAB Facades.

Clefable vs. Donphan:
The exact same concept as Omanstar, as on the first turn you set up rocks. Then encore the next turn as they either attempt to spin the rocks away or EQ.

Clefable vs. Venusaur:
With the majority of lead Venusaurs being scarfed, protect allows you to scout the move it will undoubtedly lock itself in to. Should it attempt to Sleep Powder, the toxic inflicted Clefable is given the upper hand and can either set up rocks or do some damage with Facade.
 

panamaxis

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Clefable vs. Omanstar:
With the most common first turn move of Omanstar to be Stealth Rocks, Clefable is given all the advantages. On the first turn, Clefable too sets up the Rocks. On the second turn, Clefable encores the unsuspecting Omanstar, who was probably going to try to set up Spikes. Forcing the switch, you can deal so damage to the switch in with some STAB Facades.
Any decent opponent will always spike first against clefable. I'd also probably rather run softboiled > protect on that clefable.
 
Any decent opponent will always spike first against clefable. I'd also probably rather run softboiled > protect on that clefable.
Well yeah you could always run Softboiled, but Protect helps ease predictions and also protects from suicide leads eager to explode.
 

Bluewind

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However, Clefable either loses or does jackshit to so many leads it isn't funny; which means you're almost never actually getting the upper hand: Ambipom will just U-turn, Rhyperior, Alakazam, Moltres, Donphan, Cloyster, Omastar, Hippo (etc etc) either don't care about getting Encored, because that's extremely predictable anyway and Clefable will find itself on a blind double switch in the end; or just hit it extremely hard in return, so much that all it does in the match is setup SR and die. Because of that I think Softboiled is actually better, so that it can at least survive long enough to shut down stat uppers.
 
So, I realized my team was weak to SR, so I went on a quest to find a good lead who could
a. Set up Stealth Rock
b. Stop other entry placers
c. Still be useful mid to late game.

After looking through everyone, I found a great, underutilized lead. Nidoking.

Nidoking@Black Sludge
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe(I am not good at the actual numbers game, I'm sure these could be better optimized)
Jolly/Poison Point
Taunt
Stealth Rock
Earthquake
Rock Slide/Sucker Punch/Poison Jab/Megahorn/Toxic Spikes/Ice Punch/Return

With base 85, he outruns all the common entry placers except Uxie, and even then, I've outran most Uxie I run into.
Stealth Rock obviously goes next.
After that, I run Earthquake for the STAB.
In the last place, you can really run a number of things. Rock Slide is a good move that completely decimates Moltres. Sucker Punch gives priority to any silly ghosts who think they can switch in on levitated Earthquakes. Poison Jab is a great STAB move, and hurts Venusaur like a truck. Megahorn hurts Uxie and other assorted things. Toxic Spikes can be run, but I found the commoness of Toxicroak and Venusaur ruin them, plus Nidoking is too fragile to get 3 turns to set up hazards. Ice Punch hurts flyers/Venusaur bad, and Return kinda leaves you open to Ghosts but otherwise is a good move on any powerful physical. I run Megahorn, but you can probably make an argument for any of them.
 
I came up with this lead for Sunny Day, because Electrode and all the common Rain leads piss me off.

Arcanine (M) @ Heat Rock
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 80 HP/176 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Agility
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Solarbeam

Quoted from my pending RMT analysis:
252 SAtk and modest nature maximise my attack to do as much damage as possible, particularly against Milotic who is barely and unreliably2HKO’d with Solarbeam factoring leftovers. 176 Spd allows me to outpace adamant Qwilfish in the rain after Agility. The rest of the EVs are dumped into HP.

The moveset basically lets me get the drop on common leads, particularly Electrode who, if allowed to get its job done properly, puts my team in a very bad position. Agility lets me outspeed threats such as Electrode and Alakazam, which lets Arcanine do its job. The fact is, I do not want Arcanine to be forced out – I prefer him to go down and let me switch in a sweeper for free rather than just get the sun up and switch.


Arcanine vs. common leads
As a lead, Arcanine is actually played in a suicide fashion. His role is to set up the sun (and thereby himself) and try to do as much damage as possible before going down.


Ambipom – Lets run some calcs:

-1 STAB Fake Out, 252 Atk, Jolly, Life Orb vs. 80 HP Arcanine: 25-30%
-1 STAB Return, 252 Atk, Jolly, Life Orb vs. 80 HP Arcanine: 42-50%

Despite taking a possible 80% damage, a lot of Ambipom tend not to stay in fearing Flare Blitz anyway. Since I can stay in on Ambipom and not be KO’d, I like to use Agility to scare it off or to outpace a switch-in.

Uxie – So annoying. Fearing a Trick, I go for Sunny Day to get the sun up for the rest of the team. If I receive a scarf, I have gained myself a decent revenge killer or speedy sun setter later in the game. A standard Uxie goes for Stealth Rock, letting me get the sun up and maim it for around 60% with boosted Fire Blast.

Moltres – Annoyingly, I am outpaced by Modest LO Moltres, who 2HKOs me with Air Slash. If I get flinched, I can’t even get the sun up.

Kabutops – Barring a critical hit, I can set up the sun against Kabutops. If they predict a switch and set up Stealth Rock, even better. Stone Edge does 77-92% to let Arcanine do his primary job. Aqua Jet will take me out if I take big damage on the first turn, although I can survive if I am miraculously able to take 80% or less (-1 Aqua Jet deals 16-19% in the sun). Kabutops is setup fodder for Tangrowth.

Hariyama – Fake Out / Close Combat / Bullet Punch variants need 3 consecutive max damage rolls to take me out, dealing 87-103%. This gives me time to set up the sun, and KO with Fire Blast and poison/burn damage (94 – 100% with the sun).

Spiritomb – Not really a threat. They won’t pull anything nifty like Trick me an item, and Intimidate neuters them. Set up the sun, and tackle whatever comes my way.

Alakazam – Alakazam is a mixed bag. Counter versions are not a problem, and the easiest to scout and deal with. Unless running max SAtk and specs (I survive more common timid variants), I can survive at least one Psychic and use Agility to give me the advantage for turn two, which is when I will usually set up the sun. I can still 2HKO through screens with the sun up if they are going this route.

Omastar – Omastar has two options: get its entry hazards up, or attack. Either way, I use Sunny Day to prevent being KO’d. It usually throws up the rocks predicting a switch, but may also Surf. Either way, Arcanine gets the job done: Sunny Day prevents being KO’d, and gives me Solarbeam to KO / throw around boosted STAB until I go down.

Hippopotas – Obviously just set up the sun and start attacking.

Cloyster – Played the same as Omastar, who has a more powerful STAB Surf. Max Atk Life Orb leads with Rock Blast do 75 – 90% max letting me get the sun up, and 9-11% with Ice Shard. They either die and leave my Arcanine in revenge range, or get one layer of spikes up.

Electrode – Electrode, possibly the most recognised rain lead, is one of the leading drivers behind the development of this set. As a point of self-preservation, and since Arcanine does not tend to use any non-offensive moves worthy of Taunting, Electrode reliably goes for the turn one Rain Dance. This is where Agility comes in:

Opponent’s Electrode uses Rain Dance.
Arcanine uses Agility (I now outpace Electrode)
Arcanine uses Sunny Day.
Electrode uses Thunder (likely to miss in the sun, but does not KO) or Explosion (fails to KO).
Arcanine can KO with Fire Blast. Solarbeam also tears a lot of rain teams apart.

This gives me the momentum, which is usually what Electrode does best. I also outpace pretty much every standard Swift Swim sweeper, barring Floatzel.

Rhyperior – Rhyperior is a more threatening version of Kabutops. I win if they predict a switch and put rocks up. Non-CB (they can lead you know) variants have a 33% chance to OHKO me, meaning I have a 66% chance of getting the sun up and scoring a KO if they stay in.

Venusaur – You would be surprised how many of these guys switch out (yes, even scarfers) suspecting Lum Berry. Without its quick Sleep Powder, Venusaur has nothing and switches, allowing me to set up the sun. Common switch-ins include Milotic, Slowbro and Rhyperior, who fall prey to Solarbeam.

Arcanine – Intimidate opponents are preferred, since Flash Fire renders me somewhat useless. That said, their Arcanine can’t do crap to me either, so I can set up the sun and start dealing nice damage myself:

-1 STAB Extremespeed, 252 Atk, Adamant, vs. 80 HP Arcanine: 20-24%
-1 STAB Flare Blitz, 252 Atk, Adamant, + Weather, vs. 80 HP Arcanine: 32-38%
STAB Fire Blast, 252 SAtk, Modest, + Weather, vs. 192 HP Arcanine: 44-51%

If they have no HP investment, I get a clean 2HKO.


Just exclude any of the crap that I might have mentioned about other members of my team. The lead worked really well for me, although I ended up using Moltres because Arcanine is so valuable filling a bulkier role in the team haha. Could also be used with a Timid nature and less speed/more HP EVs.
 
I have used Hitmontop for decent success as a lead

Hitmontop @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Nature: Adamant
Evs 232 HP/ 252ATK/ 26 SPD
Moveset:
Rapid Spin / Fake Out
Mach Punch
Pursuit
Close Combat

Functions like a fusion of Hariyama and kabutops in that it hits hard while being able to attack and spin away hazards. He has similar counters to Hariyama as he is terrified of psychics such as Uxie, Mespirit, and Alakazam. However he can easily handle Kabutops, Omnistar, Cloyster, Rhyperior, Ambipom, and even Electrode (Needs Fake Out but Fake Out+ Mach Punch KO).As ghosts like to come in to block the spin or take advantage of their immunity to fighting pursuit becomes extremely beneficial; allowing you to hit the pokemon switching out and hit the ghost for good damage. Mismagius and Rotom both take 80%+ if they are staying with technician boost. Spiritomb does give you issues though. He has the advantage of being able to come back later in the battle and act as a standard technitop. The Evs give bulk and maximum attack. The speed is used to outspeed Cloyster and other Tops.
 
Just curious what people do about the ubiquitous Uxie leads. It can be running so many sets and so many moves: bulky SR, Trick Scarf, Screens, Rain Dance, etc, and dealing with each one is different. For example, take the most common lead in UU (Ambipom) vs. Uxie. Ambipom Fake Outs on turn 1, and assume Uxie stays in to take the hit.

If Ambipom sees Leftovers Recovery, it can Taunt on turn 2, but Uxie can U-turn out and put Ambipom at a disadvantage. If it doesn't Taunt on turn 2, Uxie can set up SR and put Ambipom at a disadvantage anyway. Of course Uxie can U-turn out on turn 2 regardless of what Ambipom does because it can take a U-turn with mammoth defenses and is slower = can switch after seeing what Ambipom switches to.

If Ambipom doesn't see Leftovers recovery, it can Taunt and risk getting Trick Scarfed which leaves it very vulnerable for later in the match, or it can U-turn and risk seeing screens / rain go up or even face a Scarfed Thunder Wave.

So it's completely possible that Ambipom leaves the matchup at a disadvantage, but Ambipom is actually better off than other leads at dealing with Uxie because it has Fake Out. What would a lead Rhyperior do against lead Uxie anyway, and how do you choose what move you make? How do you deal with Uxie leads?
 
Hi, everyone this is taken straight away from my last RMT and I'd like to hear you opinion about it:


Skuntank @ Life Orb
Ability:Aftermath
Evs: 252 Atk/232 Spe/24 SAtk
Naive Nature (+Spe, -SDef)
-Crunch
-Explosion
-Hidden Power (Grass)
-Taunt
.....
Set Analysis:
Skuntank is one of my favourite UU lead. Its effectiveness derives from it's unpredictability. Most players don't know the moveset this skunk is running and underestimate it's power.
I really like him because not only it has great synergy with other members of the team and is able to deal with common leads but also because with Explosion it can take out every poké that is giving me problem.
Crunch deals massive damage to everything that doesn't resist it, Taunt is to prevent foes from setting up, HP Grass is for defensively bulky pokés like Omastar, Kabutops, Cloyster, Rhyperior,etc.
Defensively speaking SkunTANK (lol?) is not so bad with 103/67/61 defenses also because it has only one weakness and is immune to Psychic moves and Toxic.

-Ambipom: I switch to Registeel to take the Fake Out then switch to Moltres to take the U-Turn/Low Kick
-Uxie: I Taunt predicting Stealth Rock then Crunch on the switch/U-Turn (Crunch deals 46.3% - 54.8% to standard lead Uxie). If they Trick me a Choice Scarf (it rarely happens) I switch to Moltres but Skuntank is still useful as a very fast revenge killer.
-Mespirit: Same as Uxie but Crunch deals 82.2% - 97.5% to Scarf-leads and 71.1% - 84.3% to offensive leads.
-Omastar: Taunt as they try to set up Spikes/Stealth Rock and then Hp Grass (deals 69.8% - 82.6% damage to the standard utility set).
-Cloyster: look Omastar
-Spiritomb: They can't touch me and I Crunch on the switch, if they stay in they take 42.1% - 50% from Crunch (I've seen only Attacking Leads)
-Electrode: I Crunch while they set up Rain then switch to Registeel to take Explosion/Thunder
-Alakazam: I switch to Moltres and proceed from there.
-Qwilfish: 2HKO them with Crunch while they set up entry hazard (I will rapid spin them away later).

.....
EVs and Nature:
with 232 speed Evs and a Naive nature it is able to outspeed Pokés with base 80 speed and a positive nature, 252 Attack Evs to deal as much damage as possible, the remaining 24 Evs were placed in SP.Attack.


@
Midnight.: Moltres is able to perform that job way better than Arcanine because it can run all those moves but has a 125 base SAtk and Electrode doesn't OHKO with Thunder anyway.
 
I actually thought about a Skuntank lead earlier.
Wouldn't Sucker punch be a smart move somewhere? To hit Uxie on the U-Turn or finish Ambipom?
 
@~Yadoking~:

Yeah it is an option over HP Grass.
I didn't mention it on the analysis because my team didn't need it. If you opt for Sucker Punch change the EVs and Nature to:

24 Hp/252 Atk/232 Spe and Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)

 
Not the best lead, but certainly creative and worth trying

Blastoise @ life orb
252 HP/6 Atk/252 SpAtk
Quiet/Modest
--Fake Out
--Rapid Spin
--Surf
--Protect/Yawn/HP Grass/Roar/Aqua Jet/Foresight

Blastoise has two things that really help it as a lead: Fake out and rapid spin. Fake Out breaks sashes and is undeniably one of the best moves to lead off with. Rapid Spin will help you counter all of the recent entry hazard leads. If they try to set up on you, simply spin them away. Surf is for strong STAB and can 2HKO all ghost types that try to switch in on your rapid spin. Qwilfish and Cloyster are the only common lead that resist water, and all of the others have a high chance of being 2HKO'd by Surf. Therefore, you can not only break their sash and kill some of the weaker leads with Surf, but you can also spin away thier entry hazards. The last spot is up to you. If you hate Ambipom or you just like to scout, use protect. If you like Phazing and like sleep, use yawn. If you really hate Qwilfish, Omastar, Cloyster, and Kabutops (or opposing Blastoise if this catches on), use HP Grass. For more Phazing, use roar, because Blastoise has the Defense and HP to take a hit. Aqua Jet is for priority. Obviously, if you're using it, change the nature to Quiet or something other than modest. Foresight is there to help your spins.

Blastoise vs top 10 leads
black for win, red for lose, orange if debatable

Ambipom-- Protect on fake out, almost kill with Surf (79.7%-94.2%), but watch out for sash users. If you want, drop protect for aqua jet, and kill with Surf + Aqua Jet.
Uxie-- Fake out for damage, spin away those rocks and 3HKO with Surf. Blastoise can be a powerful revenge killer with STAB Surf (especially with Torrent) and a Choice Scarf. Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, and Zen Headbutt/Psychic barely 3HKO even with [special] attack maxed out, which no one uses any way.
Mesprit-- Same thing as Uxie, only Surf is a 2HKO. Mesprit is more likely to 3HKO you, but it is still unlikely.
Omastar-- Fake out + Surf should do the trick, also you can spin away anything he lays down. If you have HP Grass, use it.
Cloyster-- If you have HP Grass, use it. If you phazing moves, try to force it out and then use rapid spin. Otherwise, It's a stale mate, as you both can't do anything to each other. Ultimitely, you win, because it won't stay in on a rapid spin lead, and you can hit their switch in (likely rotom) with STAB Surf, which 2HKOs all ghost type switch ins.
Spiritomb-- Surf can 2HKO, and they can't really do much to you
Electrode-- Fake Out to break the sash, Surf on the rain dance. Surf will OHKO, especially after a fake out in the rain. If they try to explode on you, use protect.
Alakazam-- Solid 2HKO, doesn't mind trick or encore.
Qwilfish-- Same as Cloyster, except there's a slight chance that Surf will 2HKO after Fake Out.
 

Meru

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How do you lose against Qwilfish but beat Mesprit? Qwilfish doesn't do anything against rapid spin leads and Mesprit will kill you with Grass Knot/Tbolt. It's a good lead, but your matchup summaries aren't correct...
 

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